for daniel

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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 2/20/09 5:12 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/20/09 5:12 AM

for daniel

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb
Forum: The Big Issues

Hello Daniel,

I'm in my early 20's, started practicing Vipassana three years ago by going to a Goenka retreat, and ever since had strong pull and determination that this is something I have to pursue to its end.

My practice has improved my life in many aspects over the past three years and I am quite happy about that.

I must say, I read the opening to your site a few weeks ago and was immediately put off by the 'arahat' title and dismissed it immediately. A few days ago I came across it again and read many parts of your book, and I must say it has impressed me tremendously and there is very little to none of doubt in my mind about what you describe.

It has brought a lot of confidence in me, more energy to practice harder, and confirmed for me indeed that my strong urge to pursue serious Dhamma practice is something I should continue and find more time for.

I do have some questions for you which I think can help me in my practice in the sense that i'll have more practical understanding, and I would be very grateful if you answer them for me,

firstly, I remember once hearing Bhikkhu Bodhi say that an arahant does not have the needed attachment to live as a householder. What is your take on this?

also, can you tell me a little bit more about living as a householder without having any feeling of a center point or 'I", how does that affect your daily life as a husband, doctor, etc.

and lastly, this is a bit personal so excuse me, can one have or want to have sexual relations at this stage? and also, does your wife also practice dhamma?

many thanks for all your work and I hope that i will be able to draw much needed confidence and guidance from what you represent.
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 2/22/09 10:37 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/22/09 10:37 PM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb

I did name this post 'for daniel' but i would love it if anyone who has reached awakening answer this aswell..

kenneth?
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 12:18 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 12:18 AM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Yadidb,

These are all reasonable questions, given that so much has been written through the centuries about all the things arahats supposedly cannot do. Daniel Ingram treats this subject at length in "An Essay about Arahats."

http://interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

The short version is that the traditional stories are not true, and that arahats can do anything anybody else can do. Even the word "arahat" is problematic as it conjures up images of someone extraordinary or unusual. There is nothing particularly unusual about someone who has accomplished what, after all, is the whole point of Theravada Buddhist meditation. It's true that the old texts celebrate arahatship by telling silly stories. But that was the style back then; if you wanted to make the point that something was worth doing, you had to tell over-the-top stories about it. Otherwise, no one would listen. Being an "arahat" just means that you've come to the end of a very natural, organic, human physio-energetic process. The "strong pull" that you feel now leads eventually to arahatship. Arahats aren't so special, and they haven't lost any of the things that made them human in the first place. Most importantly, they are no longer tortured by the nagging feeling that there is something that must be done with regard to their spirituality. They are "off the ride."

Kenneth
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 3:47 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 3:47 AM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb

Thank you for that Kenneth.
I really like this explanation and I find it very helpful. (off the ride and being a natural process).
I did read that essay indeed and it is very informative aswell.

Another question I've got which I'd love if you can help me with,

So the models of enlightenment are quite over the top, but arahatship is indeed the end of suffering isn't it? I mean, an arahat does experience bodily pain and negative emotions as I understand from these explanations, but they do not cause him any dukkha, is that a correct assumption I'm making?
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 5:04 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 5:04 AM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
I beg to differ on several points made, since it seems to me Kenneth has gone too far in debunking the myth.:-) Attaining arahathood IS extraordinary, and the implications of this remain extraordinary as well. That is, arahathood is NOT simply an "end of a very natural... process". This "end" does indeed occur with arahathood, and if it's an "end" indeed, then they must lack something most other humans retain until their very end, such as being "tortured by the nagging feeling that there is something that must be done with regard to their spirituality". That is, this nagging feeling is very human. Yet, the unraveling of it remains an unusual though attainable event.

And so, there may be arahats with unremarkable personalities, incomplete views, cracked psychologies, and vacant bodies, in which case the other half of their work - bringing their awakening to bear on everything that arises, starting from their own rupakaya and following throughout their sphere of influence - remains painfully unfinished, as it does to a degree even in most perfected embodiments of wakefulness due to the cyclic, dynamic and evolving nature of existence, still the realization they attest to remains the precious and exalted jewel of liberation, not to be equated with so many other human gifts.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 6:21 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/23/09 6:21 AM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 560 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Ones relationship to pain and emotions is totally different – they are not experienced in the same way. But that doesn't mean that pain doesn't hurt either.

One of the great difficulties in discussing this experience (of Arahat) is that it has no correlate in normal 'pre-arahat' experience. So we have to say 'it is kind of like this or that' while at the same time stating 'but that is not really correct either'. In the end, one is left with a conceptual model which will always be false. It is similar to if I tried to describe snow to someone who has no experience of frozen water – it cannot accurately be done. Such a person may develop a very detailed image of snow in their mind but when they actually have the real experience they will find that it is quite different from what they had imagined.

To further complicate things, some people on reading these descriptions will under interpret them while others will tend to over interpret. On the one hand it is ordinary (but don't take that as not worth doing) and on the other extraordinary (but don't take that as impossible to achieve).

And if this is all to simple :-), consider that arahat (ditching the split) is just sort of a marker in a transformative process which keeps on going (integration).

-Chuck
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 2/24/09 9:21 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/24/09 9:21 PM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 3278 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I have been working too much. Sorry for the delay.

Thanks for all the excellent and more timely responses above.

To take on the questions asked:

1) Regarding household vs monasticism or something like that, it is all just stuff at this point, albeit stuff with consequences, habits, tendencies, etc. From a very conventional point of view, I currently believe that I can accomplish more of what I wish to accomplish working, as it gives certain freedoms that monastics do not easily have, like the ability to speak out against ancient dogmas without risking being kicked out of the Sangha or not fed.
2) Regarding my relationship and sex, no particular difference that I notice except the standard fundamental one which doesn't really apply to anything in particular in any special way.
3) My wife does her own thing and I'd leave it to her to explain if she wished or not.
4) Regarding implications for work, I am not sure I can quantify or qualify this one in some normal way. I suspect most people who work with me don't noting anything remarkable that wasn't mostly there before, though I do like to speculate that there is some deeper appreciation for the realities and commonalities of the human condition.
5) Regarding whether or not this is special or some related term, yeah, it is. It is the most worthwhile, sane, fundamentally satisfying and worthwhile thing I ever did. It fundamentally rights something that was distorted at the very core of the way reality is perceived, and thus has global benefit in a way that nothing else I could realistically imagine could. That said, this body and mind are still very human, as has been explained above.
6) Go get stream entry as soon as possible. I really mean this. It will help, you will be in the flow of the thing and it explains a lot and hints at a lot more.
7) Sorry if the term "arahat" threw you. Using it as I do is a very mixed bag.
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Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 2/27/09 10:23 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/27/09 10:23 AM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 0 Join Date: 5/12/09 Recent Posts
All of these responses are worthwhile, yadidb, and I hope that you will glean from their very diversity (and essential commonality) that Awakening is supremely valuable -- truly priceless -- yet paradoxical in so many ways. It's both ordinary and extraordinary. It makes "all the difference in the world" (so to speak) and yet it makes no actual difference (or very little) in the world at all.

Regarding some of Daniel's points:
1) Sometimes I wish I did not have to work for a living. But there's more freedom in being self-supporting outside a monastic context than to be "in the religion business" where institutional norms and the need to maintain the right public image compel one to play all kinds of games of omission and awkward toeing of the "party line." Daniel is a great example of how this freedom has allowed him to gift us all with his outside-the-box teaching, which is truly wonderful!
3) My wife is not a Buddhist, but we have established a mode of life that is mutually respectful and supporting. It may not be ideal, but then what is?
5) How valuable is Awakening? Ask an Enlightened person what he or she would accept in trade for it. Nothing else compares! Thus the Buddha referred to it as "supreme unexcelled perfect Enlightenment."
6) Yes, do this and see for yourself. Stream entry clarifies the situation mightily.

Gozen
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 2/27/09 1:13 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 2/27/09 1:13 PM

RE: for daniel

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
1) This first misconception, which you attribute to Bikkhu Bodhi, is a wonderful example of what happens when someone buys into a traditional belief system without question and/or extrapolates from his own experience to the rest of humankind. History is replete with instances of religious people saying things that don't stand up to even the most casual scrutiny.

2) Who says there is no sense of "I"? Of course there is. Being able to see in real time that "I" am a fiction, a constellation of thoughts and sensations conventionally known as Kenneth, is not the same as having no sense of "I". Of course, I understand how these ideas come about. Some of the things enlightened people say make it sound as though to be enlightened is be converted into some kind of spiritual jello, living in a continual cosmic bliss-out. Although the cosmic bliss-out is, in fact, available to enlightened people given the right circumstances, most do not choose it. Most choose to go back into the marketplace and share what they know with others. Why? Perhaps because others are not so "other" as they at first appeared.

3) Sex is not adversely affected. "In the seeing is just the seen. In the hearing is just the heard." In the sex is just the sex. My wife practices dhamma.