Forum: The Progress of Insight (part two)

This thread is for responses to and questions about The Progress of Insight (part two), The Dukkha Ñanas.

Author: msj123

Wow. Make sure you don't put this on the front of the brochure. :-)

This reminds me of a large portion of my twenties. When I was roughly 19, I had an intense awakening type of experience--- all the bells and whistles, classic A & P stuff. I was up for about a year after this, and then plunged into a long, dark night of the soul for years--- which ended in my taking up meditation.

Since then, I've had "echoes" of the original experience, on a much smaller scale. Most recently, I went through a phase where I achieved a high degree of noting precision to the point where even solid visual space began to flow and dissolve. It was accompanied by intense kriya type sensations, influxes of energy that made me flush and warm, etc. To me, it sounds like A & P. Following the advice of members on board here, I've been working on increasing concentration. Since then, I've been a little more "crabby" than usual, but nothing like a dark night. Is it always so bad and so immeditate, and if not, is it just retrogressing? Or is it possible to have "paid in advance" as it were?

the dark night doesnt have to be a big deal at all (i say this mostly from observation of others rather than first hand experience, hah!). you'll find a passage about that in chapter 25 of 'mastering the core teachings', which, if you havent read yet, you probably should.

it also seems possible to 'pay it down'.

msj123,

I think you should go into with the expectation that your first encounter is going to make it easier for you. With that sense of optimism, also remember that we don't get a choice about what comes up during meditation -- only our decision to really look into the sensations, or not.

Fear, misery, disgust... all those things show how we create pre-conditions for our happiness and being. You can watch fear -- Fear -- come over your body with a sense of facination at the same time as you feel the "worst" of it. Same thing for all the strong emotions. Not only is this a good goal for meditation, but it helps basic morality, too. You become less thrown around by your own emotions (e.g., greed, lust, and anger, too), more able to do good when times are bad.

And remember the straight ahead path is the easiest, but if you need a break, those are allowed, too. Be good to yourself and use all the resources you have.

Wow! Great stuff, Kenneth ....but a bit intimidating. Thanks for posting this. I now have a better understanding of the importance of having the support of a close knit sangha and/or a very experienced, caring teacher to shine a light on the obstacles impeding progress and facilitate one's progression along the path.

Author: Tracy.

Kenneth,
What do you mean by "unstable strata of the mind?" I don't recall seeing this phrase/metaphor/model used to talk about vipassana before. What are these strata of mind and why are they unstable?

Dear Tracy,

Think of the first layer of mind as a radio frequency. You can tune to it and just listen. It sounds good. This would be analogous to samatha. But if you tune to that same frequency and then go slightly out of phase, you can set up an interference pattern with it. This creates a new wave pattern. Within this new pattern is hidden a message. This latter situation is vipassana. The frequency is the same in either case, but you have accessed it by two different methods. You have the first ñana and the first jhana. Good message, good music.

Move on to the 2nd and 3rd frequencies. Use the vipassana technique to find the message. But what if you access those same strata using samatha? The music is boring at the 2nd freq. At the 3rd, the music sucks. There is no place to rest. Change the channel. 4th frequency has both good message and good music (4th ñana, 2nd jhana). 5th frequency, good message, good music (5th ñana, 3rd jhana). 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th frequencies, ugly message, crummy music (ñanas, but no jhanas). 11th frequency, nice message, nice music (11th ñana, 4th jhana).

All ñanas have underlying jhanas (frequencies). But some frequencies are stable (pleasant), and some are unstable (unpleasant). Only the stable jhanas have received the official jhana designation. But there is no fundamental difference between the strata of mind underlying the "jhanas" and those underlying the ñanas. All the frequencies can be accessed by either technique. Thanks for the astute question.

Kenneth

ps: Why are some strata unstable? Don't know. Something inherent in the way the energy flows and arranges itself within the body.