nirodha samapatti

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nirodha samapatti

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb
Forum: Practical Dharma

Something I find quite confusing at the moment (for obvious reasons) is , what is the difference between the cessation of perception and feeling and nibbana?

when these two parts of the mind cease, does awareness remain?
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Hi there.

Most of the confusion is probably due to the subtle meanings and ways these words are used.

Nibbana (Nirvana) can describe a couple of terms: total cessation of everything, complete emptiness ("commonly referred to as "fruition" around here); or the state of an Arhat. Fruition (nibbana in this context) IS a cessation of perception and feeling, but also a cessation of everything else conceivable. It is "pure emptiness," and cannot really be spoken of as a noun because "it" "contains" nothing.

Nirodha samapatti is different as there is still an element of "knowing" that is present, as well as other subtle sensations depending on how deeply one is into the state. (As an aside, whether it is possible to be soft (shallow into the state) or hard (deep into the state) is a personal opinion, and some think that this is an all or nothing state; whether that is true or not is irrelevant to your question though.) So basically, it really depends on what you call "perception and feeling," because there is obviously some sort of "feeling" or "perception" going on, it's just a very specific type of feeling/perception which changes, or perhaps how "normal" feeling and perception is experienced.

Not the most well articulated answer you could hope for, but perhaps it will help! I'm sure some of the other folks can supplement that and the answer to your question will be fleshed out fully.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Author: yadidb

thanks Yabaxoule, that does answer a bit of my curiousness.

I was wondering if you could tell me more about your own practice - how did you start, tradition, amount of retreat practice etc?

emoticon
cheers
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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i dont know what nirodha is like but have the sense that im going to be stumbling upon it soon enough, and this kind of threw me. there's an element of knowing in nirodha? i wonder if all the 4th pathers would agree with that. dharma dan? karma kenneth? hridaya hokai? citta chelek?

ps i thought nirodha was identical to a fruition except for the entrance/exit. this i gathered from dan.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Based on what Tarin said, I went back just now and read the MCTB chapter on it. Ironically, I had some terminology confused as well! I had bundled the few pre-nirodha samapatti states and "it" together due to my ignorance with naming conventions. That means that most of the times i've thought I was in NS, I was actually dorking off in the purelandy realms instead. That said, I do remember telling myself that a "weird fruition" happened once while in that area, which would line up with "actual" NS; I wouldn't bet on it though, because I am not at all familiar enough in that area to say so.

Sorry for the confusion guys.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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In standard use, nirodha would refer to a state (accessible at virtually any stage in one's practice), while nirvana would refer to a non-reversible developmental stage (i.e. as fruition, especially the 4th path). This would be the most simple distinction, and further from that there will be overlap in the way these two are used by different people and lineages. Some would demonstrate that nirodha happens naturally, though without discernment. Others would say that conscious access to nirodha requires a certain developmental stage, without distinguishing the relative from primordial awareness in such development. And yet others will allow that an awakened one need not have conscious access to nirodha, as evident already with some arhats in the time of the Gautama Buddha, and with the progress of insight map where only rupa-jhanas arise inevitably in their "soft" version. In my experience, "cessation" is definitely a stratum of the experiential continuum, always there for everyone to discover. In fact, it can be pointed out by a skillful guide.

As to some awareness or knowing remaining in nirodha, this all depends on our definition of awareness and knowing, right? But the one remaining in nirodha escapes common definitions. Here's why. Based on 4th absorption one can access the attainment without cognition (skt. asamjna-samapatti), and based on the formless 8th absorption (neither cognition nor non-cognition) one can access the attainment of cessation (skt. nirodha-samapatti). Cessation of what? Of both consciousness and mental events. Hence, this state is also known as relative vacuum state (see Wallace below). What remains, therefore, is the continuum of primordial awareness only (skt. jnana), as in dreamless sleep. Surely others will have more to say on this subject.

For more on this intriguing subject, see essay by B. Alan Wallace in .pdf format:
http://www.alanwallace.org/Vacuum%20States%20Essay.pdf
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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pretty off-topic, but damn, yes. im glad someone's said this. now the question is, can this be lined up with the basic theravadan teaching that cessation is 'off' the experiential continuum? (which is also how i was interpreting it until i went through it a bunch of times)
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Tarin, I think you and Hokai are making two different points. I disagree with both of you. :-)

I think we are all using different definitions of cessation (Leaving NS aside for the moment). The Mahasi-style cessation, as I understand the term, refers to three very specific, related phenomena. Cessation comes in three flavors, corresponding to the three doors of dukkha, anicca, and anatta. I hope to post a page about this soon.

As to Hokai's point that it is always there for everyone to discover, the Mahasi definition excludes this possibilty, as cessation (also known as Path and Fruition) is a developmental landmark that signals stream-entry. Anyone who discovers it is, ipso facto, a stream enterer (First Path). Prior to First Path, the phenomenon is simply not available, presumably because the physio-energetic circuitry to enable it has not yet been built.

Your own point seems to be that one can bring conscious awareness to cessation. I don't doubt your experience; it may turn out to be at least as significant as cessation. But it is not, by definition, Mahasi cessation. Cessation, in the Mahasi school, is "cessation of the mind/body process." Ain't nothin' goin' on there. You can't be consciously aware while it's happening. If you are, it's something else.

This is all very geeky, but to paraphrase the Buddha, "It is good to define terms, because well-defined terms bring happy discussions." (The original quote (from memory) is "It is good to tame the mind, because a well-tamed mind brings happiness.")

Kenneth
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I should add that the second type of Mahasi cessation, accessed through the anicca (impermanence) door, involves vibrating rapidly and smoothly in and out of Nibbana. I would have to agree with Tarin that this one is an experience, as opposed to a non-experience. That's because while it's happening you are in cessation half the time and out of cessation half the time.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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@ kenneth - alright then, but what is the meaning of these two Mahasi-style cessations in relation to nirodha(-samapatti)? I have said in my post, "Others would say that conscious access to nirodha requires a certain developmental stage, without distinguishing the relative from primordial awareness in such development." Does this entail the first meaning you give here?

(As to the other definition you give, it's also clearly developmental.)
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Here's a great primer on nirodha samapatti:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nirodha_samaapatti.htm

In my own experience, NS is a way to completely power down the mind. Have you ever hit the "kill switch" on a lawn mower? The switch works either by cutting off the flow of fuel to the engine or by preventing the spark plug from igniting the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber. In either case, the engine does not stop immediately, but gradually slows down and eventually stops. If you take your finger off the kill switch before the engine has stopped completely, it speeds up and resumes normal operation. NS is very much like this. I talk to my wife about this when it's time to go to sleep. Sometimes I say, "OK, I need to get up early tomorrow, so I'm going to hit the off switch." I hit the off switch, and become unconscious within a few seconds. As a practical skill, it's very useful, as I almost never lie awake in bed anymore. My wife jokes about this and marvels at my ability to "fall asleep within five seconds," leaving her alone to face insomnia. During sitting, it's possible to hit the off switch, then release it before going "out" completely. The mind powers up again, but the experience of having been at that stratum of mind leaves me very chilled-out for some period of hours afterward.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Well, the Mahasi map would insist that only an anagami or arahat would have access to NS. This is a useful mapping tool, as you can flip it around and say that anyone who has access to NS is at least an anagami. I don't know whether NS is just another (4th) door to nibbana. I think this is a reasonable hypothesis, as in all four cases complete cessation occurs. The big differences with NS are the smoothness of the entrance and exit, and the extreme and long-lasting calm that follows NS, but does not follow the other three.

By the way, the tradition does not say that all anagamis and arahats can attain NS. It requires mastery of the formless realms, which is a skill that may or may not have been developed by an anagami/arahat.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I don't think NS should be considered in the same league with primordial awareness. NS is relative and developmental. It is subject to the condition of having attained to it. "The simplest thing" (primordial awareness), on the other hand, is, as you might say, "always there for everyone to discover."
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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oh goody, finally get to pick a fight with an arahant emoticon

first though, kenneth, i dont think hokai's point that it's there for everyone to discover means that its discovery is not a developmental landmark. see no incompatibility of claims there.

my point is not that one can bring conscious awareness to cessation, but that cessation does not exist apart from awareness of it after-the-fact (and to some extent before-the-fact as well). though it is described to be discontinuous and non-experiential (and rightly imo), i would still put cessation squarely within the experiential continuum since cessation is thus known.*

*whether it's known 'at the time' or 'later' seems irrelevant to me for this definition since everything i know it by is experiential.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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wait, so with nirodha the entrance and exit happens *before* cessation? you hit the off switch then release it *before* going out completely?
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Nor do I think these two are in the same league whatsoever. And yes I agree that nirodha SAMAPATTI is, as you say, relative and developmental, hence a stage in ability to access a state. But that state itself (nirodha/cessation, not the samapatti/attainment), as such, shows no development at all. It is what it is. Therefore, it's there already for anyone to discover. Access to it, on the other hand, is something to be developed step by step. Not necessary for awakening.

With primordial awareness (skt. jnana) the state-stage dichotomy ain't that simple since this "simplest thing" isn't relative. Not being a state, since a state by definition excludes other states, it's also not a stratum itself. Yet there are nonetheless stages in establishing this awareness, corresponding to ground, path, and fruition. Necessary for awakening.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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hokai,

wait - does that mean you think that accessing cessation, done through completing path, is not necessary for awakening?
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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No, I'm implying that the non-relative cessation entailed in fruition is not the same as relative nirodha-samapatti.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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That's right. The entrance to nibbana is the event horizon. Beyond that point there is no turning back. Having passed it, you are going to stay "out" for some period of time, even if it's a split second. But before that it is possible to abort the mission and feel yourself pulled back toward normal waking consciousness (including jhana). And since the entrance is very smooth and continuous (right up until the discontinuity), it is possible to really explore this territory in a way that wouldn't be possible with a more abrupt entrance to nibbana.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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so nirodha is a 'relative cessation', and not the same as a fruition (which is what i mean when i say cessation)? can you describe the difference?
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Agreed.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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1) Right.

2) Maybe. The jury is out. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that others are seeing the simplest thing without having reached Mahasi-style stream-entry. What I know for sure is that "the second-to-simplest-thing" aka the no-dog, is accessible pre-First Path. Indeed, the no-dog was the very first trans-personal/spiritual experience I ever had, and that which infected me with the insight disease. For me, the no-dog and the A&P happened in the same sitting. It probably isn't possible to have the no-dog ("It knows itself.") without having the A&P. On the other hand, it does seem possible to have the A&P without the no-dog. I don't know for sure. These are educated guesses on my part, based on my own experience and listening to the reports of others.

So, while see the simplest thing is, by definition, awakening, it is not clearly correlated with the Mahasi map.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Nirodha-SAMAPATTI is relative, yes, as state of cessation entered and exited. "Nirodha" (on it's own, without samapatti) is also used to describe what is entailed in fruition, though that event is not a mere "off-switching" of mind and experience, but a non-relative re-configuration of the experiential matrix, resulting in disentanglement from the deeply ingrained tendency to reify dualistic appearances as truly existing the way they appear to exist. This has to do with different accounts of what constitutes fruition, of course, but in this sense "cessation" would refer to unrestricted blazing forth of primordial awareness, which briefly completely eclipses all features and appearances, hence cessation. Appearances return, henceforth coinciding with emptiness, their nature, as two phases of one phenomenon. Due to this result or "fruit" (as in fruition), it is non-relative.

There's an additional relation between the two, however. With some rare individuals, it is said, accessing relative cessation may prove sufficient to undermine the aforementioned tendency of reification, i.e. sufficient to prompt a recognition of mind's ultimate nature. As with "absence" and "emptiness", talking of "cessation" is really contextual. Absence of what, empty of what, cessation of what... I hope this makes sense.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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@ kenneth - great points!
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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1) Agreed, now that I understand his point.

2) I think it's worthwhile emphasizing the non-experiential nature of cessation, as that is its hallmark. Having said that, I have no problem with your logic. I think, however, it would be more helpful to speak of a "phenomenal" continuum than an "experiential" continuum, as that avoids the ambiguity of using "experiential" to mean two different things.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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you seem to be talking about the path fruition (first cessation of a path) there, as it is the fruition which 'does the damage'. would you consider subsequent attainments of cessation - as accessed through the three doors - a 'relative cessation' like nirodha then? i'm not sure what you mean by 'relative' anymore - i thought you might have meant it like yabaxoule did above - which is that it is only a cessation relative to every day appearances, but not completely (e.g. there is still an aspect of knowing).
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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@ tarin. I believe there are both relative and non-relative aspects in attainments through three doors, though their importance lies in what they lead to, in what is revealed, and the effect of this revelation. I'll stop there, due to lack of experience with three doors as such.

When I say relative, I mean anything not pertaining to the ultimate nature or suchness. Anything dependently co-arising. In terms of states, they all have their beginning and end, as well as their causes and conditions. In terms of stages, they're developmental and transitional by nature, either when they reveal something that was there all along and is there to stay, or when they introduce new enduring faculties. In terms of attainment, relative is anything dependent on this body-mind functioning. Even so, the relative remains an important aspect in and of the awakened state, though for different reasons. Again, hope this makes sense.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Hokai is making a very firm distinction between the *attainment* of NS and the substrate being accessed. The attainment is relative, conditional, developmental and timebound. The substrate being accessed, as he says, "is what it is." You could say that it's just sitting there, waiting to be discovered by some timebound practitioner.

He is not saying that NS is in any way less significant than the other types of Mahasi cessation.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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and the substrate being accessed that you're referring to is something that is specific to ns, but not fruitions entered through the three doors?
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I suspect it is the same substrate, but I don't know. I don't know how it would be possible to tell, given that one cannot go there to investigate.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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ok i just wanted to be sure you werent talking about some kind of substrate immediately prior to entering ns proper (cessation), that isnt there with vipassana-only entrances
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Well, I think this is a terrific question. Certainly the experience of entry to NS is very different, which would seem to indicate that one is in different territory. The way this looks to me, I get the 1st Path Fruitions from the 4th jhana/11 nana stratum of mind. I get the 2nd Path Fruitions from the 8th jhana stratum of mind. And I get the NS experiences, including cessation, also from the 8th jhana stratum of mind. However, the fact that the "circuit" has been completed, both from the level of the third eye chakra and from the level of the crown chakra seems to provide access to experiences that weren't available prior to the closing of the circuit. Beyond the event horizon, of course, everything looks the same, so to speak; it doesn't look any way at all, as there is no experience. You could infer that the substrate being accessed is different, as it feels different upon emerging from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd/4rth Path Fruition/cessations. But is that difference due to the substrate being accessed, or the territory from which it is accessed? Hmmm....
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I agree with Kenneth. Nirodha Samapatti, the complete power failure of the mind, is different from Fruition in its entrance, exit, afterglow and setup. The classic texts have already hashed this debate out enough, and the standard and I think only reasonable answer is that Nirodha Samapatti is unanalyzable due to its having no basis for analysis, and thus cannot be classified as a relative or ultimate attainment, and is thus the only one having this particularly ambiguous distinction. This is all just semantics, as NS is what it is, and the effects are what they are. See The Shorter Series of Questions and Answers in the Middle Length Discourses.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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All this talk about NS is making me excited about attaining higher Paths. This thread has really whet my appetite, so to speak.

Saying that the attainment of NS is pretty much only available to anagami's and arahats reminds of how many video games work. As you move through the levels, you gain access to different cheats, abilities, secret rooms, or whatever else. And once you "beat the game", the goal then becomes to master the levels and move through them quickly and effortlessly, without missing a thing, purely for your own enjoyment.

Anyways... onward and upward.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Author: yadidb

Daniel, Kenneth, Hokai and Tarin,

Thanks for all your answers, I found them quite helpful.

I do have another question in regards to this:
During sustained cessation/fruition - does the breathing and heart beat continue? or does the body stop as well,
obviously, one who is "in" cessation cannot check that, but i was wondering what you had to say on this.
cheers!
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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In all honesty, the sustained Fruition thing has been a bit of a chimera, in that I have no idea how long I have been in at points, though I doubt for very long. Most occur for me in daily life at this point, and I am pretty sure they last for only an instant from a standard time point of view. The texts do not mention anything about stopping heartbeat during Fruition, and from a strictly medical point of view, you can't have your heart stop for long before you die, and I have heard reports of Fruitions that lasted some good long period of time, way past what is physiologically possible if the heart weren't beating. As to breathing, I suspect that breathing continues based on the same logic.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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As usual, I come late to a great discussion and must complement everyone for doing such a fine job.

Since my Zen practice is not conducive to accessing the higher jhanas, I have very little experience of the formless realms, so this discussion is especially interesting for me.

Primordial awareness, however, is another issue entirely. This is home. I agree with the positions of both Dan and Kenneth, but I resonated most strongly with Hokai's formulation (which I quoted in this reply).

It's so important to recognize that jnana (primordial awareness) is not a state but is present in every state, without being bound or limited to any state. Because it is non-separate or non-dual, it cannot be placed in a "this versus that" relationship to anything. Since jnana does not arise from conditions, its realization cannot be caused or developed based on any conditional cause-and-effect practice. Yet there are practices that increase the likelihood that a practitioner will awaken to what was always already the case, and to deepen that awakening.

This seeming paradox of practice/attainment is at the root of the historical debate in Zen between the "sudden enlightenment" and "gradual enlightenment" schools.

Gozen
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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It is as if there is a full development at 4th fruition but the complete ingredients (awakening/awake qualities) for that 'completion' can go into the mix in many different combinations and series' of cyclic becoming. So you can have 0-1st fruit, 2, 3, 4. Or 0-2, 3, 4. 0-3,4. 0-4.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I've been actively trying to access NS for the past two days, and have a few observations/questions.

One, it seems like there are literally dozens of "realms" between 8th jhana and NS. I distinctly remember 5 after sitting just now, each with differing qualities. They seem extremely distinct and "hard" when each of them arise, although I have no idea how to actively engage any of those. It's just as if certain ones come about dependent upon the level of concentration/vipassana being pumped in immediately prior to the state's arising.

Second, actual NS seems like a tricky beast. I feel like my neck is going to be sore for a week because of the way I react to nearing an empty state. Similar to that, my breathing begins to shallow/quicken as I near cessation. Both of those actually prevent the cessation from occurring or sustaining for any relatively long amount of time because they break my concentration like hell.

Laying down helped these a lot, but not enough to satisfy me. Do you fellas have any tips for overcoming this, or is it simply a matter of practice & learning to relax? I know my concentration could be a lot better, and I'm assuming that is the biggest part of the problem. Lastly, is there a superior way of mixing the concentration & vipassana? I feel like both interrupt each other a lot-- like I can't help but oscillate between the two. Can a person deepen the 8th jhana enough to drop mindfulness of concentration and solely focus on the vipassana element?

Thanks.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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I have found four jhanas beyond the usual eight. I used to think there might be more, but I haven't found any others that would qualify as discrete states.

1. First Pureland jhana. I first discovered it while doing the Pureland Buddhist practice "Namo Amitabha." Hence, the name. I have since understood that it comes about from focusing the attention on the third eye chakra, without closing the energy circuit from the level of the 3rd eye.

2. Second Pureland jhana. Move the attention up to the crown chakra, again without closing the circuit.

3. The anagami jhana, for lack of a better name. Close the energy circuit from the level of the 3rd eye. Only anagamis can do this. To have the energy circuit closed from the level of the 3rd eye chakra is the definition of anagami according to my physio-energetic model.

4. The arahat jhana. Close the energy circuit from the level of the crown chakra. Needless to say, to be able to do it is to be an arahat, so it can't be done previous to that.

Pureland 1 & 2 correspond to anagami jhana and arahat jhana, respectively, but are accessible to a sakadagami who is near 3rd Path.

All of the advanced jhanas are vipassana/samatha hybrids; in my experience, they can't be accessed by pure samatha.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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If you turn your attention into a beam like that of a flashlight, you can wave the beam around inside your skull. When you wave it across the area just behind the 3rd eye, you may feel a deep calm and the beginning of power down. If you leave the beam focused there, the mind will power down very smoothly. There is no need to strain. It does take a lot of practice, well-developed concentration and, of course, the anagami attainment.
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RE: nirodha samapatti

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Thanks Kenneth. The realms I was messing around in were probably not as definitive as they seemed; I was sliding around a lot after all. In the past few hours I've been messing around in that area, there is one state that seems to be reoccurring; I'm guessing that's probably the only "mapped" one that I might be accessing.

I tried the advice above and had awesome results. I know practically nothing about the subtle system, so this was surprising as hell and damn near like magic to me, haha. I can't say that cessation occurred for sure, but the reaction was very surprising and welcomed. I felt a prolonged strobe effect similar to fruition through the impermanence door; just wave after wave, each one slowing more than the previous as various processes halted. I don't recall a total blink-out though. Ahh I can't wait to sit tomorrow to give it another go!

This all intrigues me to no end-- is there somewhere I can get a hold of your energy model and/or explanations of why these phenomena react/arise in the way that they do?

[Edit] Before I forget, does this description sound like one of the 4? Felt like incredibly warm, dense, vibrant gold energy which was both expanding and contracting simultaneously in an extreme way. It felt a lot different than any other state I've been in. Come to think of it, the first meditation "event" I ever had felt like a split second of this prolonged state-- both that event and this gave me the impression "wow, a supernova." The peace coming out of it felt far beyond what the 8 jhanas usually imprint; more like the peace after a deep "new" fruition.

-Trent
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RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Excellent, that would be the very definition of "samadhi" in great Mahayana sutras, stand-alone texts known as "vaipulya", the Amitabha/Sukhavati Sutra being just an example.
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth,

I have been messing around in this territory every evening as a base for my insight work, and I feel like I am seeing definitively reoccurring states. Many seem to have a Siddhi-visualization flavor to them, is that why you group them as you do? For example, I stumbled into the "all pervading watcher" state Dan mentions in MCTB, and that was a total mind trip. Although it could just be the newness of it, it is one of the most interesting states I've seen yet.

It seems like whatever happens after 8th jhana is some sort of temporary "solidification" of residual mind formations. In example, I can squeeze my eyes shut tightly and after the initial physical system responses my eyes have, the residual visuals and feelings tend to last. Thus, the residuals alone reproduce a state with extremely vibrant visuals and heart chakra related bliss that seems to be felt in waves which coincide with the action of the visual; this seems to last as long as I stick with it. This seems to be the case with most of these states-- I get an inkling of some formation (such as "the watcher"), then focus on it with concentration (not always a conscious reaction), then a few things fall away and I'm left with a state I can sit with or gently manipulate.

I don't know what to make of all of that from a theory perspective, but I would enjoy other takes on these states.
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
This is a most excellent light saber master. /|\ Thank you.
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Trent,

Check out the traditional teachings on the 31 realms of existence:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

The realms are very accurate maps of meditative states. For example, the five suddhavassa (pure abodes), which are said to be accessible only to anagamis and arahats, are interesting in that they are based on the fourth jhana, and are thus "fine material," as opposed to immaterial jhanas. This would explain why the Pureland jhanas are so physically pleasant and possibly more flexible than arupa (immaterial) jhanas. I'd be very interested to hear detailed descriptions from you, triplethink, and anyone else who thinks they may be exploring these realms.
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hy Trent,

Say more about the all pervading watcher. There's no right or wrong answer, we're just exploring together.

Kenneth
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RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hey trip,

Let's get busy mapping these states. If you don't mind, write down your experiences as clearly and simply as you can and post them here so that other explorers will have some breadcrumbs to follow.

Kenneth
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RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
The last few years I've been willfully avoiding jhana in my waking life and especially during meditation. I'm not sure how these pureland jhana work as I've never tried to discern these states within jhana 4. If I do only a little bit of jhana I get a lot of blowback in daily life via high strangeness of all kinds. Could it be that these 4th jhana pureland states have both an interior and an exterior dimension? At times it is as if the realms of form and so on shine more brightly through the sensual realm revealing a more fundamental layer. Form takes on dimensional depths it doesn't ordinarily present. The fine material realm is almost always accessible and hovers at the periphery of awareness and then there are the various beings, etc. in all of these realms. I have a thread where I asked for advice re: some of the simpler phenomena of this kind. The advice mirrored my own thinking, stick with the insight work. That flashlight idea is very cool, very relaxing. Hokai gave me some visualizations to work with so I am trying some visualization for the first time in a very long time. I've stayed away from all kinds of concentration work because it can take on a life of it's own so easily in my case.
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: nirodha samapatti

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth,

Sure. It was very visually related, the physical sensations (eyes/face) that make up the "outline" around the visual sphere had a major impact on the feeling. Those physical sensations seemed to have a very odd relationship to the visual field. Everything associated with the visual sense field felt like an infinite, FULL, void of "everything," and the physical sensations contained the all pervading watcher aspect. It was a lot like how I use to think of God as a kid-- some giant invisible being looking down on the world; holding it in his palm. Another way I would describe it as "boundless watcher, watching boundless space." Although that is not quite accurate either.

I'm not sure if any of those give it justice, but perhaps all of them together paint a decent picture.

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