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Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana

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Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 6:12 PM
Can someone please point me to which suttas of the  Buddha , from the Pali Tipitika, contain the "maps" - specificalllyh the 12 stages of Vipassana Nans leading to Arahantship? 
Thank you!

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 6:39 PM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
Leigh Brasington wrote this. The insight stages were a visuddhimagga thing I think. 

here he corresponds the “16” insight stages with the 7 stages of purification as found in  MN 24 - Ratha-vinita Sutta (The Relay Chariots Sutta)

http://www.leighb.com/7sop16ik.htm

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 7:01 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Leigh Brasington wrote this. The insight stages were a visuddhimagga thing I think. 

here he corresponds the “16” insight stages with the 7 stages of purification as found in  MN 24 - Ratha-vinita Sutta (The Relay Chariots Sutta)

http://www.leighb.com/7sop16ik.htm
Thanks . This is helpful and interesting. But still leaves me wondering  - Even though this map of "nanas" seems to be one of the core teachings of the Buddha, there is no direct reference to them (as we understand from various traditoins and Daniel's book, etc ) anywhere in the original Pali Canon? I thought the Visudhi Magga came much later, right? 

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 7:31 PM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
Yes, the ñanas as talked of here and in MCTB are from the commentaries, old (Visuddhimagga) and more modern (Mahasi Sayadaw). Their roots are traced back to the 7 stages of purification in the suttas as seen in that link. 

Nick

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 8:34 PM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
They are found in the Abhidhamma, and one can debate all day long how “original” the abhidhamma is, and they then appear in the Vimuttimagga, which predates the Visuddhimagga by a few hundred years, but you don’t generally see debates about whether or not a car is “the original car” among those driving cars so long as the car runs, or debates about what was the original way a number was written long ago, and this sort of origin-story fixation seems a curse that we Buddhists just love to cast on ourselves rather than asking the more practical question, “Do these maps add something that helps me practice well today?”

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/16/18 9:11 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Agreed. Thanks Daniel. emoticon 
Yes, a good point indeed about the need to stay focused on the practical and the real-world implications of things, to one's practice and life. 
What got me started on this question in the first place was that , as you point out in your book and talks -the path can be really dificult and have incredibly challenging phases (Dark Night etc). Most modern teachers do not openly talk about this stuff and I was wondering if the Buddha ever did. If not , why not. 
Permit me to  argue that this might be a fair question for a practitioner. I don't need to worry about the origins of my car as long as it drives well or the origins of a number if I like it, because these don't have the dark or profound side effects that meditation could.
But when walking down a path with a map that charts so many difficult and complex territories , having some knowledge of  the origins and what early practioners (including Buddha) went through might be useful or re-assuring to some degree
I am interested to know the Abhidhamma has references - as well as the vimuttimagga. Thanks for pointing that out.
ps: And while i have your attention - a big thanks and salute for your book and all the inspiring talks you have given . I have read the book,  watched many of the talks and found them incredibly valuable. Not sure if this is the forum to point this out but most of the Buddhist Geeks podcast links are broken on your site - I hope they can be fixed at some point - would love to listen to them but having a hard time finding some of them directly on the Buddhist Geek site. 

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/17/18 9:04 AM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
The obvious precursor in the Nikayas can be found in AN 11.2 with thanks to Sutta Central. Notice how closely this tracks the stages of insight from the A&P to Dissolution to the Dukkha Ñanas to Equanimity to Stream Entry. It also tracks the Seven Factors of Awakening, which themselves track the stages of insight in order. There are multiple descriptions of the same territory and oft-noted progression of practice but in just slightly different language. Clearly, the authors of the Suttas were aware of the stages of insight.

Here's the sutta:

“For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May freedom from remorse arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

“For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May joy arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

“For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May rapture arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

“For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May my body be serene.’ It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

“For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I experience pleasure.’ It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

“For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May my mind grow concentrated.’ It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

“For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I know & see things as they actually are.’ It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

“For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I feel disenchantment.’ It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

“For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I grow dispassionate.’ It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

“For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.’ It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

“In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

“In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore.”

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/17/18 9:15 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Wow. This is powerful and inspiring stuff. Thanks so much. Let me go and sit now emoticon

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/17/18 10:17 AM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
Maybe unrelated to your question about nyanas, but it seems to me that the Mara stuff is also a bit of a map with respect to the psychological and emotional challenges a yogi might face.

From Access to Insight...

Mara to the Buddha:

"O you are thin and you are pale,
And you are in death's presence too;
A thousand parts are pledged to death,
But life still holds one part of you.
Live, Sir! Life is the better way;
You can gain merit if you live,
Come, live the Holy Life and pour
Libations on the holy fires,
And thus a world of merit gain.
What can you do by struggling now?
The path of struggling too is rough
And difficult and hard to bear."[12] 

The reply which the Buddha gave Maara has the makings of the entire concept of the allegorization or personification of temptation and psychological conflict. We find here all the ingredients which, in course of time, fired the imagination of countless writers, poets, painters, and sculptors all over Asia for over two millennia.[13]

The Buddha recognizes the speaker of these "kind" words and is conscious of Maara's hidden agenda. So he rebukes him as Pamattabandhu (the Friend of Heedlessness), Paapimaa (the Evil One), and Ka.nha (the Black One). The hosts of Maara are also identified:

"Your first squadron is Sense-Desires,
Your second is called Boredom, then
Hunger and Thirst compose the third,
And Craving is the fourth in rank,
The fifth is Sloth and Torpor
While Cowardice lines up as sixth,
Uncertainty is seventh, the eighth
Is Malice paired with Obstinacy;
Gain, Honor and Renown, besides,
And ill-won Notoriety,
Self-praise and Denigrating Others:
These are your squadrons, Namuci."[14] 

[...]

"For I have faith (saddhaa) and energy (viriya)
And I have wisdom (paññaa) too."

Further to underline the psychological dimension of the battle, as conceived in this context, the Buddha proceeds to tell Maara:

"Your serried squadrons, which the world
With all its gods cannot defeat,
I shall now break with wisdom"

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/17/18 1:20 PM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
EDIT: just realized Daniel got there before me while I had the post editor open.  I know there are some others.  Will post if I can find.

there are several places in early buddhist text (beyond relay chariot sutta) where POI type orders can be found.  here is a good one - 

https://suttacentral.net/an11.2/en/sujato 

When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets.

When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful.

When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture.

When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil.

When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to become immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss.

When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.

When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I become disillusioned!’ It’s only natural to become disillusioned when you truly know and see.

When you’re disillusioned you need not make a wish: ‘May I become dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to become dispassionate when you’re disillusioned.

When you’re dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re dispassionate.



RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/17/18 4:53 PM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Thanks. This is a very interesting relationship with  the subject of Mara. It did strke me that even though the buddhist texts are full of referencees to Mara , MCTB had no references at all. I can  see how the same conepts of Mara (as a god/person/force who obstructs seekers) can be extended conceptually to the various difficulties which arise on the seekers path in the nyanas. Thanks for making that connection. 

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 1:09 AM as a reply to Mantri Sanyasi Raj.
I don't have doubt on the map. Also, Ledi Sayadaw and U Narada's Burma Vispassana methods are in accord with the Satipatthana Sutta description.

However, I highly doubt about using the "nana" maps as a practical guide to Vipassana. Losing the "beginner's mind" and developing expectation/craving are real danger of the maps.

Hearing people saying that they had attained stream entry, yet they still love to drink alcohol is one example of overstimation.  Only when one really reach the nana of discerning path vs not path, then he/she out of the danger of attach to any experience. However at this point, map or no maps is not so important because he/she know exactly what factor need to develop. 

For example Udayabbaya nana (arise and passing away nana), knowing it as only vibrations or sensations is missing the point of the practice. 

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 5:59 AM as a reply to Joe D..
Hey Joe, I'm pretty keen on the original Suttas.  MCTB sort of convinced me that the original stuff the Theravadan's preserved is hugely worthwhile.  And later I became convinced that Siddharta Guatama really really really knew his stuff and it wasn't worth doubting such a comprehensive and obviously correct body of knowledge.  The task was instead to understand it and be cautious that the transmission was correct.

But, even so I think that further progress is possible beyond the Suttas, and I recall reading somewhere that the Buddha implored his followers to keep on improving the Dharma after his death.  I also think that there has been a countervailing effort to make the Dharma harder.  For example, absorption has been described as a normal human quality (you can be aborbed in unskillful things, like money or sex) as has one-pointed concentration (which, for example, the assasin is described as having just before he strikes).  Yet in contrast some teachers translate absoprtion and one-pointed concentration to almost superhuman levels.  I can understand the desire to raise standards - fair enough.  But I think the original Dharma was meant to be a bit more accessible.

Also, bear in mind the example of Bhutan, which is probably one of the most Buddhist nations on earth. One guy who did a lot to make that happen was Drukpa Kunley whose principal methods were to drinks lots of wine, have sex with lots of women, and disrespect any religious authority he came across (including Buddhist authorities).  I believe that the Bhutanese still celebrate his Thunderbolt of Flaming Wisom with pictures and sculptures in public places.  And yes, the Thunderbolt of Flaming wisdom is indeed Drukpa Kunley's erect phallus.  You can google the wiki pages to confirm this.

So ... I guess I am saying there is room for other approaches than just the strict one in the Suttas.  As it happens, a moderately conservative Sutta approach appeals to me, and that is what I do my best to apply.  But I have reached the conclusion that the alternative of using the nanas as a guide to Vipasanna is a really neat bit of technology, and the world is better for it.   JMHO

Malcolm (Edit: wrongly said Nepal instead of Bhutan in the first draft)

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 7:44 AM as a reply to Joe D..
Joe D.:
Hearing people saying that they had attained stream entry, yet they still love to drink alcohol is one example of overstimation.
Even according to the Ten Fetters model, attaining Stream Entry doesn't eliminate craving. In fact, some teachers--I believe Shinzen Young is one, but could be mistaken there--actually report a huge increase in alcohol cravings among some Stream Enterers not long after the attainment. 

If this is correct, that means that some Stream Enterers will succumb to this temptation of Mara and others will practice well enough to resist it. I'm not aware of any traditional texts that suggest that all temptation/craving utterly disappears after Stream Entry.

Take a look at the Vinaya--at all of the temptations and the succumbing to temptations that clearly were going on among ancient monks who spent all of their waking hours in meditation and dhamma study.

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 8:30 AM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
Not to encourage over-indulgence, but this story from the Pali canon always gave me a chuckle and a bit of inspiration.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html


RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 10:12 AM as a reply to JohnM.
"A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
[Some folks are reported to have said when the Buddha declared the recently-deceased Sarakaani a Stream-Winner]

[And the Buddha is reported to have said in response:]

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'

(
Sarakaani in fact became a Stream-winner at the moment of death.) [Just under the wire.]

SN 55.24

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 8:00 PM as a reply to JohnM.
JohnM:
"A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
[Some folks are reported to have said when the Buddha declared the recently-deceased Sarakaani a Stream-Winner]

[And the Buddha is reported to have said in response:]

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'

(
Sarakaani in fact became a Stream-winner at the moment of death.) [Just under the wire.]

SN 55.24
Pour one out for Sarakaani! :-D 

RE: Pali Canon and maps of Vipassana Nana
Answer
6/19/18 8:50 PM as a reply to Tashi Tharpa.
XD

In addition to the occasionally cheerful outcomes*, I love the ability of awakened beings to take whatever fixed position folks are getting all worked up about and turn it on its head. Ananda must’ve heard “say not so, Ananda” more than any other phrase except “where’d you put my bowl?” :-)  Lucy and football done right!

*Anyone hear the one about the frog that was reborn in Tusita heaven when killed by a walking stick while enjoying the sound of the Buddha’s voice, then flying down to tell the Buddha about it and winning stream-entry upon hearing his instruction? That is some serious serendipity.