Jim Smith's Log - Discussion
Jim Smith:
... But I am sure I can learn from other people on the forum so I would like to set it out here in case anyone has any advice or constructive comments to make.
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I don't have the inclination to spend all day meditating, but I have an academic (intellectual) interest on what perfecting the "end of suffering" would mean, and how it is accomplished, and what is the relationship between western scientific concepts about the nervous system and eastern practices and theory. Because that kind of understanding can lead to changes in my own practice to make it more efficient.
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I don't have the inclination to spend all day meditating, but I have an academic (intellectual) interest on what perfecting the "end of suffering" would mean, and how it is accomplished, and what is the relationship between western scientific concepts about the nervous system and eastern practices and theory. Because that kind of understanding can lead to changes in my own practice to make it more efficient.
I got a lot of benefit, not the end of suffering but surely a lot less suffering, from a 10 day retreat and then an hour twice a day for a year, then another 10-day retreat and more daily meditation. It feels to me like it was totally worth it.
It sounds like you are doing what I understand as 'absorption' practice, you lead your brain to a pleasant state then give it permission to dwell there. It keeps you 'off the street' and it feels good, but no-one around here will say that it ends suffering.
The popular MCTB recipe is vipassana, insight meditation, intense style! Instead of resting in a pleasant state, you develop acute awareness of everything going in inside mind/body, you see/hear/feel/learn that the untrained mind is stupid and is wasting your time and eventually it stops doing that. OK, that's kinda tongue in cheek, but that's how I'm rolling right now.
It's totally cook book, you need juuuuust enough theory to convince you to sit your ass off, any more theory than that might get counter productive.
matthew sexton:
It sounds like you are doing what I understand as 'absorption' practice, you lead your brain to a pleasant state then give it permission to dwell there. It keeps you 'off the street' and it feels good, but no-one around here will say that it ends suffering.
According to Buddha, pleasure born from seclusion is the path to awakening. See below.
Personally, I've been meditated regularly for most of my life, I've been on retreats, and I got a lot more out of my practice (much less "suffering" during times when I am not meditating) since I started doing this type of meditation. Practicing relaxation in mediation or with another technique strengthens the parasympathetic nervous system, it gives you the skill to stay relaxed during dail life. It is a skill that continues to develop as the parasympathetic nervous system gets stronger with 'exercise'. When you can produce happiness through meditation you realize it is impermanent and illusory, and you lose your attachment to it and other emotions, at the same time you develop the skill of being happy if you want to (as an antidote to dukkha). The practice helps you to get better and better at being relaxed and happy during daily life. So from my experience, I would say it is a practical technique that is highly effective at reducing suffering.
The popular MCTB recipe is vipassana, insight meditation, intense style! Instead of resting in a pleasant state, you develop acute awareness of everything going in inside mind/body, you see/hear/feel/learn that the untrained mind is stupid and is wasting your time and eventually it stops doing that. OK, that's kinda tongue in cheek, but that's how I'm rolling right now.
It's totally cook book, you need juuuuust enough theory to convince you to sit your ass off, any more theory than that might get counter productive.I don't think you can totally separate insight from concentration. You need some minimum concentration to do insight, and every wandering of the mind during concentration produces an iota of insight which adds up over time.
I didn't say much about it in the OP, but reading between the lines what I wrote about renuncination, insight is implicit. You see what causes you stress and it changes how you think about things. Renunciation = letting go of attachments.
You can't rest in a pleasant state unless you have reached perfection. There is always something that disturbs your peace but since you prefer a pleasant state, you see what is disturbing your peace and you figure out how to let go of it (get back to a peaceful state) during the meditation session and during daily life.
I should have said more about this in the OP it was an oversight on my part.
I think it is relevant that buddha said:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge.
According to Buddha, pleasure born from seclusion is the path to awakening.
I suspect that some people will get more out of my style than other practices where you have to meditate for hours a day and go on retreats. Because my style eases suffering somewhat you don't need will power, it's like aspirin, so the average person who starts the practice is more likely to keep it up.
I am really interested in a system for the average Joe who right now isn't meditating, or can't sit for more than a few minutes (they should be doing yoga or qigong), or is struggling to figure out what he is supposed to be seeing within but doesn't feel like he is getting a lot out of it. Look on reddit/meditation and you'll see there are a lot of people like this. (I realize I'm sort of in the wrong place to talk about this.)
matthew sexton:
The popular MCTB recipe is vipassana, insight meditation, intense style! Instead of resting in a pleasant state, you develop acute awareness of everything going in inside mind/body, you see/hear/feel/learn that the untrained mind is stupid and is wasting your time and eventually it stops doing that. OK, that's kinda tongue in cheek, but that's how I'm rolling right now.
It's totally cook book, you need juuuuust enough theory to convince you to sit your ass off, any more theory than that might get counter productive.I think there is legitimate room for different opinions on what is the best type of practice. Probably it depends on what works best for the individual.
I quoted Thich Nhat Hanh above, are you aware of Bhante Vimalaramsi? He started out studying the traditional methods in Asia, decided they weren't delivering what they were supposed to. He developed and now teaches a type of "smiling" meditation.
https://www.dhammasukha.org/ven-bhante-vimalaramsi.html
Bhante practiced Vipassana very intensely his first 20 years under an American teacher and in Burma, under U Pandita and U Janaka. Finally around 1990 he was told that he had achieved the endpoint of the practice, as it was taught by the Sayadaws, and now he should go teach. He didn't feel comfortable that he had really found the end of suffering. He felt he did not have the true personality change that awakening should bring, even after going through the 16 levels of Insight or knowledges, as outlined by Mahasi Sayadaw in Progress of Insight.
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When Bhante began to do this, he discovered first hand, the interwoven nature of the Teachings. In each sutta he found the elements of the 4 Noble Truths, the 8-Fold Path, and the impersonal process of Dependent Origination. Dependent Origination or Paticcasamupada is the core of the Buddha's teachings. He realized that the word sutta literally meant "thread" and that the threads together, created a finely woven cloth, whereas, one single thread does not equal a cloth! Through his own objective first hand experience, the 8-Fold Path began to come alive. When he realized the secret of the teachings was on his doorstep he took the Majjhima Nikaya to a cave in Thailand and spent 3 months, living with a cobra as company, reading and then practicing just what the suttas said. In very little time, he said, he had gone deeper in his meditation, than ever before. What started as two weeks to study suttas turned into three months of deep practice. Out of this was born TWIM or Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation completely based on the suttas in the Majjhima Nikaya. He found the Jhanas had an entirely different explanation and experience. Nibbana was possible!
He teaches a form of meditation involving relaxation and smiling:
https://www.dhammasukha.org/the-6rs.html
The 6Rs are steps which evolve into one fluid motion becoming a new wholesome habitual tendency that relieves any dis-ease in mind and body. This cycle begins when mindfulness remembers the 6Rs which are:
1. Recognize
2. Release
3. Relax
4. Re-Smile
5. Return
6. Repeat
This is somewhat analogous to what I wrote above:
Jim Smith:
You can't rest in a pleasant state unless you have reached perfection. There is always something that disturbs your peace but since you prefer a pleasant state, you see what is disturbing your peace and you figure out how to let go of it (get back to a peaceful state) during the meditation session and during daily life.
Jim Smith:
What is the difference between meditation and ordinary consciousness?
Mindfulness and meditation are the same impersonal process of the mind producing thoughts emotions and impulses.
What am I?
This situation calls for two scoops of ice cream.
... and probably merits hot fudge and whipped cream on top.
The milestones are irrelevant, they are only useful for busybodies and climbers who want to keep a record of who is better than whom.
Jim, this view seems extreme to me. I had what you would probably describe as gradual awakening, but there were definite markers along my path that were very helpful to me. I think it's wiser to accept the utility of path markers and not be quite so dismissive.
YMMV, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Chris Marti:
The milestones are irrelevant, they are only useful for busybodies and climbers who want to keep a record of who is better than whom.
Jim, this view seems extreme to me. I had what you would probably describe as gradual awakening, but there were definite markers along my path that were very helpful to me. I think it's wiser to accept the utility of path markers and not be quite so dismissive.
YMMV, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
When I say everyone has some amount of awakening and they can get more by practicing, and that the difference between two people on either side of the line (of a milestone) is insignificant I believe those views come directly from what Shinzen Young wrote about gradual awakening. By milestones I mean the four stages of awakeing starting with stream entry. I also get from what Shinzen wrote that there is a difference in having enlightenment and experiencing/exhibiting the effects of enlightenment vs. actually knowing something is significantly different and knowing that difference is due to some level of enlightenment. The former is the important part. Knowing you have enlightenment is something that is not really part of having enlightenment - it's a different kind of thing. Like if you are a nice person, you are a nice person even if you think you aren't. What you think about it is not part of it.
Is that the kind of thing you experienced? What were the markers you found helpful?
Chris Marti:
Is that the kind of thing you experienced? What were the markers you found helpful?
The four paths are the biggest part of it but there are a lot of signposts that were just as helpful for me. I worked for some time with a teacher and that person communicated all kinds of indicators to me that both spurred and assisted my practice. One example is the jhanas. They just showed up at one point and without knowing what they were and why they showed up when they did (generally speaking, of course) I might have ignored them or possibly become enamored or mired in them.
FYI - you seem kind of angry about immediate awakening. Am I right about that?
I did not have the jhanas in mind when when I wrote about milestones. And I don't disupute that certain experiences in meditation follow one another like the stages of vipassana when you follow that path. I have a lot of respect for the empirical experiences people report. But as far as I can tell absence of jhanas does not limit the level of enlightenment you can have so while I think they are helpful and maybe in some paths they can help lead one to a certain level of awakening, I don't consider them to be definitive for everyone. They are optional.
I am not aware of my aggregates being angry.
When I came to this forum, due to my limited background on the subject, I didn't know if anyone was enlightened except maybe Zen masters (and I had my doubts about some of them). Then I read what you and a few other wrote and I had to adjust to a new worldview. Then I found out Daniel thinks there is only one way to enlightenment and I had to adjust again. Then I read what Shinzen wrote about gradual enlightenment and the whole kit and kaboddle seemed to make sense to me and I am reacting with delayed astonishment as I adjust and think through the implications because it has such far reaching implications for my understanding of Buddhism and the culture of Buddhism in the modern world and how it relates to the history of the development of Buddhism from Buddha's time to the present. What I am astonished about is that I had to go digging in the documents section of a private facebook group to find this information that is so profound. I am astonished that it and the implications of it seem to be unknown outside that electronic document and Shinzen's mind.
Chris Marti:
The milestones are irrelevant, they are only useful for busybodies and climbers who want to keep a record of who is better than whom.
Jim, this view seems extreme to me. I had what you would probably describe as gradual awakening, but there were definite markers along my path that were very helpful to me. I think it's wiser to accept the utility of path markers and not be quite so dismissive.
YMMV, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
And I think that would be a misunderstanding of what Shinzen says. He has talked clearly about cessations, and even in one or a few of his talks on youtube, talks about it and says that "That is how you would get Stream Entry". What describes before that for instance, is that the mental image space itself collapses to a dimensionless point. When he says Absolute Rest, he means cessation. When he uses Gone with capital G, he means cessation.
And also in one of his videos he says that he often uses four paths model.
Siavash:
Chris Marti:
The milestones are irrelevant, they are only useful for busybodies and climbers who want to keep a record of who is better than whom.
Jim, this view seems extreme to me. I had what you would probably describe as gradual awakening, but there were definite markers along my path that were very helpful to me. I think it's wiser to accept the utility of path markers and not be quite so dismissive.
YMMV, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
And I think that would be a misunderstanding of what Shinzen says. He has talked clearly about cessations, and even in one or a few of his talks on youtube, talks about it and says that "That is how you would get Stream Entry". What describes before that for instance, is that the mental image space itself collapses to a dimensionless point. When he says Absolute Rest, he means cessation. When he uses Gone with capital G, he means cessation.
And also in one of his videos he says that he often uses four paths model.
I explained my view on that in another thread, Shinzen is conversant in the conventional view and can discuss it using the appropriate terms. But that conventional view is not complete. It seems to me that Shinzen's views on gradual enlightnement add to the conventional view and are fairly easy to understand and my interpretations are very straight forwared and directly implicit in what he wrote.
I'll link Shinzen's article again. If you can quote any part that contradicts what I have written it would be helpful or if there is anything I have written that you think is not really in there also let me know.
Here is that link again:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/15808951#_19_message_15808951
"However,for most people who’ve studied with me it doesn’t happen that way. Not suddenly. What does happen is that the person gradually works through the things that get in the way of enlightenment, but so gradually that they might not notice."
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So what typically happens is that over a period of years, and indeed decades, within that person the craving, aversion and unconsciousness -‐the mula kleshas (the fundamental “impurities”), get worked through. Because it’s gradual, they may not realize how much they’ve changed. As the mula kleshas get worked through they suffer less and the fundamental alienation between inside and outsidediminishes. But because all this is happening gradually they’re acclimatizing as it’s occurring.
In acclimatizingthey may not realize how far they’ve come.
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So what typically happens is that over a period of years, and indeed decades, within that person the craving, aversion and unconsciousness -‐the mula kleshas (the fundamental “impurities”), get worked through. Because it’s gradual, they may not realize how much they’ve changed. As the mula kleshas get worked through they suffer less and the fundamental alienation between inside and outsidediminishes. But because all this is happening gradually they’re acclimatizing as it’s occurring.
In acclimatizingthey may not realize how far they’ve come.
He says some people get enlightenment gradually without knowing it. That means someone can be enlightened without knowing it. I infer that knowing you are enlightened is not necessarily a part of being enlightened. And what he wrote means progress is continuous there are not necessarily any "aha" moments where before you were not at all enlightened and now you are definately enlightened. So I also infer that enlightenment is not like a thing you have or don't have but like a substance everyone has more or less of and you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuosuly as you contiunue to practice - that is what I understand gradual enlightenment to mean.
If you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuously as you continue to practice you don't need milestones like stream entry because they are arbitrary - with gradual enlightenment there is no practical difference between someone just before or just after stream entry. The only use would be to rank people according to who has a higher level of enlightenment.
If you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuously as you continue to practice you don't need milestones like stream entry because they are arbitrary - with gradual enlightenment there is no practical difference between someone just before or just after stream entry.
Does the frog eventually cook when the water eventually boils?
Jim, I think there is a multitude of paths to awakening. I've never heard of any two people having the same path. What if Zen is right, and Daniel Ingram is right, and the Sufis are right, and the Christain mystics are right, and Shinzen Young is right? What if we all just have different practices and different cultures and makeups, and a different set of experiences along the way?
Chris Marti:
If you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuously as you continue to practice you don't need milestones like stream entry because they are arbitrary - with gradual enlightenment there is no practical difference between someone just before or just after stream entry.
Does the frog eventually cook when the water eventually boils?
Jim, I think there is a multitude of paths to awakening. I've never heard of any two people having the same path. What if Zen is right, and Daniel Ingram is right, and the Sufis are right, and the Christain mystics are right, and Shinzen Young is right? What if we all just have different practices and different cultures and makeups, and a different set of experiences along the way?
As far as I can tell Daniel says his way is the only way so I don't agree with that part of his way, otherwise I don't dispute the path he teaches. But his exclusiveness is one reason I am pushing the gradual enlightenment thing here in these (his) forums. To help people understand that there there are other ways. I think Daniel is wrong and it is harmful to people following different paths who might come here for fellowship with other Buddhists and then be told their path is wrong.
Jim Smith:
Chris Marti:
If you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuously as you continue to practice you don't need milestones like stream entry because they are arbitrary - with gradual enlightenment there is no practical difference between someone just before or just after stream entry.
Does the frog eventually cook when the water eventually boils?
Jim, I think there is a multitude of paths to awakening. I've never heard of any two people having the same path. What if Zen is right, and Daniel Ingram is right, and the Sufis are right, and the Christain mystics are right, and Shinzen Young is right? What if we all just have different practices and different cultures and makeups, and a different set of experiences along the way?
As far as I can tell Daniel says his way is the only way so I don't agree with that part of his way, otherwise I don't dispute the path he teaches. But his exclusiveness is one reason I am pushing the gradual enlightenment thing here in these (his) forums. To help people understand that there there are other ways. I think Daniel is wrong and it is harmful to people following different paths who might come here for fellowship with other Buddhists and then be told their path is wrong.
Dear Jim,
You are misrepresenting both Shinzen and Daniel. I sincerely ask you, if you are quoting something from them, or saying something that presumably is representing their words and ideas, please include the actual and exact quotes from them, so that readers could read themeselves, and know for themeselves what Shinzen and Daniel have said.
Good luck and be well.
Siavash:
Jim Smith:
Chris Marti:
If you can increase your level of enlightenment in small amounts continuously as you continue to practice you don't need milestones like stream entry because they are arbitrary - with gradual enlightenment there is no practical difference between someone just before or just after stream entry.
Does the frog eventually cook when the water eventually boils?
Jim, I think there is a multitude of paths to awakening. I've never heard of any two people having the same path. What if Zen is right, and Daniel Ingram is right, and the Sufis are right, and the Christain mystics are right, and Shinzen Young is right? What if we all just have different practices and different cultures and makeups, and a different set of experiences along the way?
As far as I can tell Daniel says his way is the only way so I don't agree with that part of his way, otherwise I don't dispute the path he teaches. But his exclusiveness is one reason I am pushing the gradual enlightenment thing here in these (his) forums. To help people understand that there there are other ways. I think Daniel is wrong and it is harmful to people following different paths who might come here for fellowship with other Buddhists and then be told their path is wrong.
Dear Jim,
You are misrepresenting both Shinzen and Daniel. I sincerely ask you, if you are quoting something from them, or saying something that presumably is representing their words and ideas, please include the actual and exact quotes from them, so that readers could read themeselves, and know for themeselves what Shinzen and Daniel have said.
Good luck and be well.
There was another thread where someone claimed Daniel said in the other paths that don't have cessation they really do have cessation but they don't know it. That means you can't be enlightened without cessation. In a different thread when I asked about this someone brought up Shinzen as an example of someone who believes cessation is not necessary for enlightenment. That is how I found out about Shinzen in the first place.
There was a video where Daniel defined stream entry in terms of phenomenon that is specific to the stages of insight. The implication was obvious: paths that don't follow the stages of insight can't produce enlightenment.
Normally I would provide links to the other threads to back up my statements but the search capabilities of these forums, as far as I can tell, can only search titles not posts.