Author: marinr
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I've just read Ken's description of the Third Rank where a yogi uses this realization as a teaching tool.
Which reminded me of a story in Theravada where a certain monk always attains the cessation of perception
and feeling before meeting 'ordinary' people. The point of the story being that the monk's attainment will be
of benefit to the mind-stream of others.

I also remember (if I remember correctly) Hokai talking about the arahat's 'sphere of influence' in one thread.

I would really like to see a debate around this (if it hasn't been debated already). Do we know how this
exactly works? Does it work? Are there any practices that support this kind of development? And what are the actual effects?

marinr: Could you discuss this a bit more or where you found it (article? book?).

Thanks,
-Chuck

chelek,

in addition to the page marinr is referring to, which i cannot find, kenneth makes brief mention of this in the psychological model section at:
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/Physio-energetic+and+Psychological+Models+of+Enlightenment

'...has access to the glorious non-duality of the Third Rank. He can manifest it at will, and finds that, if wielded skillfully, the stink of enlightenment, tempered by the humility of the fall, can be of great benefit to others.'

Author: marinr

Thanks Tarin, I was reffering to that sentence.

I'm wondering what 'wielded skillfully' means, and also what is exactly 'great benefit'.

And here's a quote from Hokai:
"And so, there may be arahats with unremarkable personalities, incomplete views, cracked psychologies, and vacant bodies, in which case the other half of their work - bringing their awakening to bear on everything that arises, starting from their own rupakaya and following throughout their sphere of influence - remains painfully unfinished, as it does to a degree even in most perfected embodiments of wakefulness due to the cyclic, dynamic and evolving nature of existence, still the realization they attest to remains the precious and exalted jewel of liberation, not to be equated with so many other human gifts."

It seems logical to me. If everything is interconnected, there must be some way to express this on a non-conceptual level.

Author: marinr

forgot the link of the post from Hokai:
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/2439822/for+daniel

Ah, my mistake. In a burst of mindlessness I read the word 'Ken' and plugged in 'Wilber' – thus the comment 'article? book?'. Of course, you are referring to our own Ken.

“I'm wondering what 'wielded skillfully' means, and also what is exactly 'great benefit'. “
I'll leave that for Ken.

“It seems logical to me. If everything is interconnected, there must be some way to express this on a non-conceptual level.”

Though 'interconnected' is a good working definition – the experience is more of 'no-separation' or 'wholeness'. A great difficulty is appreciating the role of the dualistic overlay in our experience (pre Arahat). It is so tightly fused to experience that it colors everything. It is like looking through a colored piece of glass and having another person who is seeing directly try to explain what color the different objects are that you are seeing. There is no reference for say what a true blue is when not colored by the lens. This is the same problem we get into when speaking of emotions for example.

“there must be some way to express this on a non-conceptual level” - you mean experientially?

Author: marinr

Well, yes. I'm wondering how do meditative attainments affect other people (like cessation of perception and feeling
mentioned above) or if they affect them at all.

I also have a feeling that there could be something happening with the movements of the body. Which also seems logical -
if the mind of the Arahat (or a being less realized) is different, then the movements should also be somehow different?

Here is maybe a pretty weird analogy but I will run it and see if it makes any sense. I wouldn't call it non-conceptual though.

Let's say we have a synthetic sponge – the kind you use around the sink. It is largely composed of empty bubbles separated by fiber. Assume that the sponge is full of water. Assume that each bubble of water identifies with the space defined by the fiber surrounding it as a separate 'me'. As the bubble is empty (without characteristics) then each bubble effectively defines itself by the nature of the medium that separates it from any other.

Let's suppose that some bubbles have heard that they can be free - once and for all – that sounds pretty nice. So now if the water which has identified with a bubble as 'self' were to develop the ability to see through this illusion and see – in real time – the true nature of its wateriness – what happens? At first it might hold to its old idea and think 'OK, finally I can ditch all that nasty fiber – I'm free at last!' But the fiber just sits there. This is painful – but does it want to give up its wateriness? So then it starts pondering – what if the fiber is just spongeness? What if the problem is our bubbles liking or disliking the fiber and not the fiber itself? Does the fiber impede the flow of water? So, a long task of letting go of liking or disliking any fiber that it happens to become aware of ensues.

The fiber that defined it is also the same fiber that separates it from the other bubbles that are in relation to it. In this case, how might the other bubbles experience our awakened bubbles new found flow freedom? Spaciousness? Freedom? Not at all?

I'm just talking about sponges - but there are some similarities (which may be due to incomplete views, cracked psychologies, etc)

Hi Marinr,

I don't know how this works, but it is something that many people have reported. I certainly have experienced it in a very powerful way. Being around enlightened people often brings a kind of contact high. Sometimes you notice it in real time; sometimes you don't notice it until after you leave that person's presence.

As far as practices that support that kind of development, well, yes. Getting enlightened is the key. :-)

Apparently, some traditions actively teach shakti-pat, which is the conscious transfer of kundalini energy from one person to another. I don't know very much about that, as I haven't trained in that way.

What are its effects? In my experience, you get a temporary boost in your practice and a long-lasting dose of inspiration.

Kenneth

Author: marinr

@chelek

So, if water in one bubble stops reflecting in the fiber for a short time, this is of no immediate
use to other bubbles?

Have I got it right?

Thanks Ken for the opinion on this.

I can't say as I don't know. My suspicion is that nothing we do happens in a vacuum. That everything at some level impacts everything else. I think Buddha said that you had to be a Buddha to understand Karma. I don't feel like one needs to be awakened in order to have an impact on others but I think the power of that impact is much greater the more awakened an individual is. That being said, I suspect it also has lots to do with the relationship you have with the other person and also how 'open' the other is. One person might feel tremendous peace around someone and another nothing at all. This is what my own experiences suggest but really I just can't say.

-Chuck

My thinking on this, and I would love to be corrected if I'm wrong (but I very much doubt it), is that the mind is not bound to the body by anything other than conditioned associations.

Think about it, where does your body begin and end? If you are early on in the path don't bother with this too much or even at all if you are keen to progress as it is one thing that has created major flak for me. So I think it is important to have a very mundane conception of what the body is and is not. But apart from that, consider even breathing. We breathe the same air as the next guy but only for that breath is it a felt part of our experience. Same thing with the rest of us, it is all on loan. Where is the mind? After the formless jhanas I had to conclude that it is, in some ways at least, everywhere, like emptiness more or less. Our individuated mind particularly in one form or another, again, through conditioned associations and ongoing maintenance.

In my experience the mind is not confined to making contact with only the body and so really it can contact another mind or body very directly. That it does not do so is entirely conditional and so if you want to push this then you have to modify those conditions but again I advise against changing the nature of these things before you understand what you are doing and the best way to understand is to observe what happens naturally. I have tried so many weird things that it is a bit too late for me. So if anyone wants someone to use as a lab rat, just pm. I've probably already run some experiments.

Here are a couple of links related to this discussion:

There was a TM experiment done (with 4,000 TM practitioners) looking at the impact of meditation on crime in Washington DC.
“findings showed that the rate of violent crime--which included assaults, murders, and rapes--decreased by 23 percent during the June 7 to July 30 experimental period.”

http://www.alltm.org/pages/crime-arrested.html

P.E.A.R. (Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research) did numerous studies over 30 years regarding the impact of intention on physical systems.
“Beyond its revolutionary technological applications and scientific impact, the evidence of an active role of consciousness in the establishment of physical reality holds profound implications for our view of ourselves, our relationships to others, and to the cosmos in which we exist.”

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/implications.html

The two studies are very different. The first addresses the issue of “how do meditative attainments affect other people” while the second looks at the effect of focused or directed intention. In light of the PEAR research, it is sobering to consider the effect of so many beings spending much of their time involved in directed focused intention around craving and aversion.

There is a particular practice that, in my experience, leads to a kind of permeable ego that sensitive people can see and feel and be inspired by. The advaita vedanta practice of self-enquiry, as taught by Ramana Maharshi and Nasargadatta results in the experience of "I AM," to use Ramana's terminology. I call this experience the "no-dog," as the witnessing consciousness of this experience has no stake in the personal concerns of the practitioner. It has, as the saying goes, "no dog in this fight."

At any rate, it is easy to see, hear, and feel when someone is manifesting the no-dog, as they look and sound distinctly otherworldly. Here are some youtube examples of people doing this as a teaching tool:

http://tinyurl.com/cjsj2q

http://tinyurl.com/dfn6mr

http://tinyurl.com/cwps54

As these talks were videotaped, these teachers were manifesting Tozan's Third Rank of Enlightenment. Does that mean that they are stuck at the Third Rank? Not necessarily. For all we know they might be at the Fifth Rank, but deliberately manifesting the "stink of enlightenment" for the benefit of their students.

As an aside, I would prefer that teachers spelled it out clearly, e.g. "I'm about to manifest a particular point of view as a teaching tool. I'm not always like this. It isn't the only way to manifest or to think about enlightenment. But let's spend the next hour 'stinkin' it up,' because I want you to get a taste of non-duality."

Couldn't a teacher use magick / intention on the student to start and/or speed up the progress if the student agrees?

That would really clear things up, wouldn't it? Aside from the kind of dharma expounded here at the DhO, I can only think of a handful of teachers who are that honest about enlightenment (not that my knowledge of enlightened people is that extensive).

I saw something kind of like this in the Christian Pentecostal denominations, too. I grew up in this scene, and it was common to come in to contact with people who were "anointed" with various spiritual gifts (healing, knowledge, prophecy, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, etc.). Some of these people, for whatever reason, were able to induce intense experiences in others. I'm sure a behaviorist would have a heyday pointing out the various reasons for this stuff, but it has always sort of mystified me. At any rate, a lot of that stuff can easily become spiritual materialism if it isn't used wisely. I think it's difficult for some people to differentiate a purely emotional experience/release from a direct experience of the non-dual, which can lead to a lot of confusion on the path.

It's possible to get a preview of enlightenment through drugs or through the intervention of a teacher. But in order to stabilize the new perspective, it always seems to come down to the efforts of the individual student. With only rare exceptions, there is no free lunch (as exceptions, I'm thinking about people like Eckhart Tolle and Poonja-ji, who apparently woke up through no effort on their part).

By the way, effort is a tricky word here; the heroic effort advocated by U Pandita would be anathema to a teacher like Mooji, who asks only that you notice what is already the case. It's pointless to argue which of them is right, as both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. The wonderful thing about being a yogi in the 21st century is that we have access to all kinds of teachers and teachings; we can experiment and find out what works best for us.

My main point is that each of us is responsible for his or her own awakening. Although it's tempting to look for shortcuts, my feeling is that for most people shortcuts end being "long-cuts."