Forum: Practical Dharma

hi everyone,

i had another experience again this morning. i want to share it so that i could get some pointers from the more experienced along the path...

so i did the first half of meditation practice sitting on the bed, the second half lying down. as i relaxed and got deeper my awareness shifted and i felt like a sheet of paper flowing like a "sine" wave, up and down, undulating... i recognized the sensations were similar to what i had experienced the previous day so i just relaxed and rode the waves...

then my body started moving downward off the bed, as if a "tractor beam" was pulling me towards the wall. i felt fear but was able to regain composure. i let go and surrendered to what was happening... i kept moving and moving... my feet, legs, and lower body went through the wall... then i wondered what would happen if my upper body continues to pass through. suddenly my body moved in reverse, away from the wall, until i was back on the bed...

then i remembered that i should be doing Vipassana! so i sat crossed legged and continue my meditation... as i meditate and noted the sensations i became very relaxed... the images in my mind's eye seemed to be radiating... then i lost awareness...

next thing i remember my wife was with me in the room. we were talking about "awakening." she said that the process of awakening is very hard and painful that's why most people just give up. then a thought crossed my mind: giving up is also what leads to awakening... then i lost awareness...

(cont.)

i find myself back in bed... then i had another series of 3 lucid dreams and false awakenings, all of it in the span of 30 minutes. i literally felt like Bill Murray in Groundhog day! the contents of the dreams seem to have direct correlation with my personality and unresolved psychological stuff, but to me the contents are not that important. what's more interesting is the series of sensations leading to the lucid dreams and the fact that i was able to remember to do Vipassana in the dream state! if only my awareness is stronger and more stable.

anyway, i'm sharing this experience so that i could get some pointers from more experienced practitioners, particularly those who had experiences in navigating the dream realm. did you have similar experiences? did you implement any technique to see things as they are in the dream state?

unlike the Tibetan school, Theravada doesn't have explicit techniques in navigating and dealing with the dream realm (at least none that i know of). so i want to ask the Arahats in the house (who practiced Theravada), do you remember navigating the dream state during your practice days? how did you do it?

also (for Arahats and those who are advanced in the path), i'm interested to know how you perceive the dream state. do you still dream? do you remember your dreams? do you get lost in your dreams? do you perceive waking, dreaming, and deep dreamless sleep as one continuum of awareness?

thanks!

~C

Sounds interesting as hell, but I can't say I've had much of anything interesting happen in my dreams. I had a weird A&Pish dream once not long after gaining 3rd or so, but most of my dreams are about as normal as before any realizations occurred. Am I suffering less in them? Haha, I guess I might be. Typically though, they're completely content related and have very little to do with this aspect of my life.

That doesn't help a whole helluva lot, but I guess my point is that folks probably shouldn't feel bad if they've got nothing going on in this area.

Hi C,

My sleepytime experiences run the whole gamut, from no dreams (on retreat, or when I'm practicing a lot) to a situation where there is awareness of awareness (like the Tibetan clear light practice), to lucid dreams (often with flying, which is absurdly pleasant and wonderful) to regular run-of-the-mill dreams, to cartoonishly scary nightmares (like being chased by a giant and his dog) that cause me to whimper or shout in my sleep, thereby terrifying my wife, who wakes up, wakes me up to reassure me that everything is OK, then lies awake for an hour, traumatized, while I giggle and go immediately back to sleep. :-))

I do have the sense that sleeping and dreaming are just surface variations superimposed upon an immutable substrate, but that's not to say that I'm not asleep when I'm asleep. Maybe it's fair to say that there's always an awareness of awakeness, but that doesn't quite capture it either.

If I make a resolution to notice the moment of falling asleep, there is often the clear light awareness going on even after the body/mind is snoozing away. It usually doesn't last long before it winks out and I sleep in the conventional way, i.e. apparent lack of consciousness.

Kenneth

Kenneth, thanks for sharing your experience. i feel bad for your wife

similar with your experience, if I make a resolution to notice the moment of falling asleep, i start sensing the vibrations and then there's this quick flash of light (i don't experience it as *clear* light though, possibly because my awareness is not stable enough). then after the quick flash, the scenery change, and wham! i'm in the dream state acting out my role in it. when i get lucky, i get lucid, and then i fly. beats Second Life experience every time

~C

Author: Dan_K

I had a dream a few months ago where the set-up involved an amusement park ride which ascended up towards ultimate truth. I got on, along with a group of people from throughout my life. The overall feeling was like a rollercoaster climbing to the initial peak. As the ride moved along, everyone aboard had to recite passwords which would appear on monitors. With each password the ride accelerated and the passwords got more complicated. If a password was misspoken, the rider would be flung off into a dark abyss, end of ride. I made it up to the top, but guess who got flung off right before ultimate truth was about to show up? After being cast into the fade-to-black abyss rather dramatically, I somehow was standing with one of my friends from back in highschool, a real achievement-junkie, who had made it all the way. I asked him: what happened? What IS it? He smiled and opened his mouth to tell me, but all that came out was a robot-voice: ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE. Dream ends.

nice. love the visuals. reminded me of the third type of enlightenment via justperception: "ejected from the game" http://bit.ly/yzeRK

sometimes i think that the Kosmos has a sick sense of humor

~C

Author: Dan_K

Haha...that article (Red Card) has scared the crap out me for over a year now. I have mostly come to terms with it, because I believe the author is describing a very particular angle of looking at awakening, but I read it again every time I wish to have my ideals crushed
I would love to hear what other people at DhO think about it.

Regarding dreams, I have had a number over the past couple of years that involve dissolving into vast empty space, sometimes literally, and sometimes with more symbolism (one time I was on a train that unexpectedly plunged into the ocean and vanished, leaving only the still waters. It was actually very cool). These dreams are always exhilarating and unsettling, but never really scary. They have been very significant to me, as I feel they reflect my movement on the path. Also, I have had dreams with multiple false awakenings...very strange. Makes you wonder what being awake truly means.

---D

(edit): I think my dreams are expressing a sense of moving into the unknown, facing a sort of annihilation, yet more importantly, an answer. It has this 'unfathomable' sense to it. It gets very hyped up in my mind, often quite spectacular. I wonder if it's A+P stuff.

Like Dan_K I find that article very scary! That sounds like an extremely undesirable "attainment" and the only consolation is that the guy claims it's very rare. I would also appreciate some comment on it by our local arahants.

C4chaos, I read the article you linked to. Fascinating. Here are my initial thoughts about the author's three types of enlightenment:

1) I agree that his enlightenment number 1 does not exist.

2) I agree that his enlightenment number 2 is doable and eminently worthwhile, although difficult.

3) His enlightenment number 3 is conventionally known as mental illness. I agree that it is rare, frightening, tragic and can strike without warning. I don't, however, believe it has much, if anything to do with what most of us call enlightenment. I can imagine that someone who suffers from some dissociative mental illness could have a very difficult time with social and ego integration and that real enlightenment (the author's enlightenment number 2), might make it even more difficult. I hope the author can find the help and support he needs to integrate his understanding of no-self into the rest of his life. Meanwhile, I would urge others not to conflate enlightenment with mental illness in spite of scary testimonials like "Red Card." Mental illness is very serious business, and while spiritual awakening doesn't cause mental illness, it may bring it to the fore in individuals who are predisposed to it. On the other hand, some conditions, e.g. depression and bipolar II disorder can sometimes be relieved by enlightenment. See Daniel's recent page on that topic:

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/Bipolar+Disorder+and+Insight

when i read the "Red Card" article, i immediately associated it with stage 3 (or 4) of Tozan's 5 Ranks. but that's just my own projection since i don't have a first-hand experience of attainments. and i haven't met the guy.

i believe that the author of the "Red Card" article is a member of Dharma Overground. but instead of pointing him out, i'll let him come out and speak for himself. i don't have an impression that he's "ill" though. i just think that his awakening is more on the *extreme* end of the spectrum. he's now teaching a method called "Nautilus" - (see http://bit.ly/11ABrz ). it's like a more extreme version of Vipassana. check it out and let me know what you think.

that said, i'm familiar with different types and levels of "enlightenment" since i've been reading about them for a long time now. different "awakened" people have different expressions depending on how they got "there" and what their personality is. the "Red Card" article reminded me of U.G. Krishnamurti's radical awakening (see Mystique of Enlightenment - http://bit.ly/uI7g5 ) now, i think that U.G.'s awakening was more on the "unhealthy" spectrum side. but his deconstruction of the notion of enlightenment very much informed me to be very discerning of people making spiritual claims and high attainments. that's why i like the guy. he was one of the real bad-ass "enlightened" people

would love to hear your thoughts on radical and "unhealthy" awakenings. would be a good discussion on another thread.

~C

Author: Dan_K

My interpretation of "Red Card" is that it is directly about calling out "he who would become enlightened" i.e. that enlightenment happens to no one. Does it sound like mental illness? Sure. But I think that the reason behind it is because it is about what enlightenment looks like to ego-identity, in stark contrast to other sorts of egoic achievement. For the achievement-motivation personality, there is an irony about enlightenment being the undoing of he who would achieve it. Also, when tempered with other articles on justperception it is clearly not the whole story, but a particular (lack of) frame of reference. I agree that U.G. is a similar example of a teacher who expressed enlightenment in terms of its stark antithesis to egoic motivation.
From MCTB:
"...a shift has to happen in which the drive becomes driven to understand the sensations of that drive itself rather than looking to future sensations for satisfaction. This is a completely unintuitive thing to do..."
The desire for enlightenment must be turned back on itself, especially if enlightenment is seen as self-perfection, which is what I believe "Red Card" and U.G. are all about, in a harsh pull-the-rug-up-from-under-your desire-for-becoming sort of way!
Just my opinions

edit: It might be worth adopting a model at some point in one's path thus: instead of enlightenment being something that few attempt to achieve, it is something that most try to avoid. That flip points to the present: what am I avoiding/ignoring right now?