Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlightenment"

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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/5/09 4:47 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/5/09 4:47 PM

Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlightenment"

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Forum: Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlightenment

This thread is for responses to "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlightenment."
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/5/09 9:03 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/5/09 9:03 PM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Hi Kenneth,

I would like to thank you again!

For the purpose of making the point I want to form two groups those that take the Dharma at a young age and run with it and those like myself who have not had the models to work through. The second group spends a longer time comtemplating self, death, impermanence and suffering outside the context of the enlightenment models and formal meditation. Although it is true "everyday" thinking and contemplating is not meditation, everyday thinking requires some insight and concentration that bears fruit to upset "nice" models. Also many of life's extreme experiences do the same thing.

So the second group (myself included) with lifes variations has more differculty applying a nice neat model of enlightenment to their own concepts and experience. Many things have occurred in an apparently non - systematic way over manys years (40 in my case) whereby it is hard to say if too much is being attributed to what you know (or experience) or what the models suggest you should know. We hit the cushion but we still thirst for the dharma.

Anyway to my point - you write in such a way that you broaden the appeal and application of the models.

Much appreciated.

Regards
Gary
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 3:28 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 3:28 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

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Author: msj123

This is sort of a strange one. I've known people who seem to have achieved great attainments in wielding energy, or chi, but who do not seem to know how to talk about the inner mechanics of the mind (i.e. the way people do here). This is especially prevalent in internal martial arts/qi gong contexts. For instance, I've had a tai chi teacher who could "scramble" my sight/image space just by touching me, and shift where I perceived my center of gravity.

On the other hand, I've run across people who manifest great knowledge of how the mind works, etc. but do not have knowledge and/or power of energy (Master Sheng Yen, Seung Sahn So Nim, etc.). I wonder if they aren't two different things altogether.

I have run into certain writings which talk about a "mental" and "physical component" to enlightenment (William Bodri and Master Nan, Hui-Chin comes to mind) that are separate. In my own experience, there is definitely an overlap, but I wonder if they aren't two separate things.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 3:52 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 3:52 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
The word "physio-energetic" is problematic in that it can bring to mind the kinds of energy-manipulating phenomena you describe. I was tempted to use "physiological" instead, but that won't fly because the developments we are describing can't be measured or directly detected by modern science.

However, what I mean by physio-energetic development has little to do with the ability to wield energy. I'm talking about subjective experiential changes in the body energy system that occur over time, usually as a result of meditation practice. For example, the ability to experience a previously solid pain as a flow of rapidly changing sensations is a physio-energetic phenomenon that corresponds with the development of a particular stratum of mind. Strata of mind are, themselves, physio-energetic phenomena. They are not physiological, strictly speaking, but neither are they psychological.

The ability to wield energy is a separate, but possibly related matter.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 4:54 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 4:54 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 560 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
@msi123: I look at it like this: Once you get stream-entry then you are on the 'awakening super-highway'. When we discuss the physio-energetic vs psychological models we are looking at two different on-ramps (stream-entry): You can take either one. Both models consist of a conceptual framework that points to experiential phenomena.

After stream entry they really tend to merge quite a bit but you still have the conceptual framework that makes it difficult to see things from the other view point. The same problem arises with other models like Christian or Sufi. Having gone through the physio-energetic side, I am more comfortable with it and often confused by the psychological models.

Physio-energetic:
experiential phenomena are around energetic phenomena felt in the body and how this energy moves through the centers and channels. Conceptual framework is then the 'development of chi'.

Psychological:
experiential phenomena are around cognition (?). Not sure if that is the best word to use. Conceptual framework is then 'progress of insight'.

In other words, we are looking at a mind/body process either from a body-oriented side or mind-oriented side. Kenneth's use of terms like 'strata of mind', 'nexus of energy' and 'energy will recirculate in a stable pattern' are useful terms for linking the two models (though I would use 'strata of mind/body' :-).

In Chi Gong there are many exercises that work on becoming aware of the energy in the body (compare these with the progress of insight). Others focus on opening primary centers (strata of mind/body), and circulating energy through these centers such as: micro-cosmic orbit.

The abilities of Chi Gong masters to use this energy is quite impressive and may correspond to powers developed through concentration practices. The two schools have much to share.

-Chuck
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Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 5:19 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 5:19 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 0 Join Date: 5/12/09 Recent Posts
This is a great topic, with much that can be said -- which you've said, Kenneth, extremely well -- and even more that is either unclear or unsayable (which you also stated frankly). What I want to focus on right now is your statement:
"...the developments we are describing can't be measured or directly detected by modern science."

That statement suggests 2 questions:
1) Can these developments **ever** be measured by scientific means?
2) If the answer to 1) is affirmative, then how far is modern science from performing such measurements?

I'm undecided about this myself. At one point I believed that while many physio-energetic correlates of some levels of Enlightenment might be measurable, the highest attainment could not be. Then I had a conversation with Dan Rizzuto, a sakadagami and a PhD neuroscientist, who persuaded me to change my opinion about the potential measurability of all attainments. Yet now I'm back to being troubled by uncertainty about this matter. What I'm waiting for is a proof-of-concept scientific/technological demonstration of a device or material system that can measure individual attainments and rank them in a way that corresponds exactly with the actual attainments we know (or strongly believe with warranted evidence) based on traditional criteria for recognizing Enlightenment.

Gozen
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 5:49 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/6/09 5:49 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

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The two schools HAVE shared a lot, and have come out with quite a synthesis, available in most sophisticated forms in various lineages of Buddhist Vajrayana, and Kashmiri Shaivism. Just as shamatha and vipashyana were combined and fused by Yogacarin master Asanga to produce the yuganadha method of meditation, so energy and wisdom were combined to produce tantric sadhanas integrating devotion, energy-work, visualization, and "naked" meditation.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/21/09 2:56 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/21/09 2:56 PM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 0 Join Date: 7/26/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth,

love your take on this. will be watching as you flesh out this model some more. "five ranks of tozan" is one of my favorites too, along with Wilber's AQAL, and Spiral Dynamics.

speaking of which, have you read about Wilber's "Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"? if not, here's the link: http://bit.ly/NGhe

Wilber provides an awesome, yet very high-level (like a 15,000 feet) view. i'm interested to see where subtle energies would fit on your physio-energetic model.

keep it flowing...

~C
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:44 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:44 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Crazywisdom

The man to be asking this question is Dirk Al/ajahn Al because he first got stream entry with budhist practices (I think Vipassana but there might have been some energy worked mixed in as well), lost it after a while and then got it again doing Mantak Chias meditations. For those of you not familiar with Mantak Chia his meditations comes from the Taoist tradition an relies almost exclusively on the concious manipulation of energy. The way he teaches it is as close to aproaching enlightenment as an engineer as you can come.

Dirk Al has written this about these two experiences:

http://www.universal-tao.com/TheDarknessReview/TheDarknessReview1.2.html

You get some relevant comparisons here but I think he has a lot more to say about this then what is there. Now he also teaches something about combining the microcosmic orbit with Jhana practice so I think his thoughts about this has evolved quite a lot. I know him a bit so I am going to send him an email and ask him to chip in to the discussion.

The energetic experiences I see most often described by people doing "wisdom" meditations are energy going through the central channel, lots of bliss emanating from the root chakra, some sort of alchemy (blending and transformation) happening in the navel/dan tien area, release of block in and awakening of the heart and third eye chakra and massive activity in the crown at certain points, particulary around enlightenment breakthroughs. THis is quite close to descriptions within Taoism and yoga of the energy work that needs to be done conciously to get enlightened but there is often a lot more complex stuff added. It also seems quite clear that the energetic meditations creates more surplus energy than passive "stilness" meditations.
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:58 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 6:58 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Crazywisdom

My personal theory is that through energy meditation you can bring yourself to the doorstep of enligthenment but from there on there is nothing other than insight/surrender that can get you the last step. Whenever i read maps of the steps to be taken in energetic meditations to get all the way, they are extreemly specific up to the point of the last step/breakthrough. Arround that are they get murky, start talking about going into emptiness and such but rarely offer meaningfull instructions. Some teachers of such traditions say that they doubt the last step can be taught. Micheal Winn wrote that someplace about Mantak CHias system which he himself also teaches. I think these traditions are murky arround the breakthrough are is because it requires insight/surrender and the energy traditions often do not excell in either. I think you can more or less modulate something along the lines of the Vipassana insight cycle map energeticly, get through it but that in the last step just cannot be micromanaged. I think that leads a lot of people from these traditions to roam about at the door of enlightenment for an absurd amount of time untill they somehow figure out what to do or just kind of get it or surrender enough.

My impression from reading both online and in books is that quite a lot of people get 1st path or more through Vipassana, Zen and Tibetan Budhism. I see people from these traditions claim stream entry + for themselves or others fairly often but I can count on one hand how often I have read the same about people from Taoism or other energy focused traditions. I do see it for Vedanta quite a lot and I do see it for a few people from the yogic tradition but there is a huge imbalance. I think this relates to the energetic traditiions often being bad at insight and the last step. The fact that I come across more such claims from Vedanta than yoga traditions emphasising chakra work etc. backs this up since Vedanta is based on insight.
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:07 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:07 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Crazywisdom

My impression is that Tibetan Budhism has managed to combine the energetic meditations with insight practice in a way that realy works and is explicit. I think you can come across similar teachings within the yogic tradition but they are much harder to find as they are not very explicit about insight practice. A teacher I know that has trained extensively in Vipassana and Raja yoga said that the teachings he got in Raja yoga in an Indian ashram was basicly the same as Vipassana just with slight nuances. However, he is almost the only one I have come across that has realy gotten such teaching cleraly in the yogic tradition. Mostly it is just mantra practice and energywork without any explanation of how to go from deep concentration states to enlightenment.

My meditation teacher says he finds what he thinks are insgiht teachings that can do the job in some of the old Taoist manuals but has not come across one taoist teacher that emphazises something like that today. In other words taoism was meant to be something not to far from Varjana by combining energy and insight but has mostly lost this today. In part I think the same is true for the yogic tradition, at least the parts of the yogic tradition that westerners usualy practice today.
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Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:19 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/23/09 7:19 AM

RE: Response: "Physio-energetic and Psychological Models of Enlig

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Crazywisdom

With regards to wether one can modulate the insight map and go through it up untill the door of enlightenment just by manipulating prana I think it might be possible but there might also be something along the lines of what I say about the last step. That at certain points you need some insight to get further. So you could make your way to the door of a stage and then struggle there untill you somehow get it and break through. Presumably it would be much easier to "get the point" at these intersections than at the door of enlightenemnt.

Another possibility might of course be that energy meditations don`t follow the same route as the insight map but somehow gets you to the door of enlightenment or at least to someplace that is especialy beneficial for insight practice so that you can get through it easier than with straight up Vipassana.

I think the fact that the only two people I know that has had realy great success with Mantak Chias system had extensive Vipassana background lends credibility to my theory. I have read so many posts at taobums and healing tao by people that used mantaks system for many years and no one those who posted has come close to the success these two guys have had with it. They somehow just surfed through it and I attribute that partly to the concentration from jhana practice and how it prepares the body by cleansing it of blocks since that seems to be a major problem for a lot of people doing Mantaks stuff, but mostly I think it is that the Vipassana background prepared them to handle the insight aspects that Mantak does not realy understand himself or at least does not know ho to teach. I am sure many other people has had success with Mantaks stuff but from what I have seen it seems Vipassana gives ads something that realy would have helped those who practice the system.

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