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the dharmaoverground logo Wet Paint 3/27/09 7:24 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Mike L 3/27/09 9:19 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 8/3/14 3:28 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 9/17/14 4:55 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Abingdon . 3/27/09 10:44 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/16/14 12:50 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Piers M 9/16/14 3:50 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 9/18/14 12:59 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 9/17/14 9:02 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 9/17/14 9:06 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 9/22/14 1:26 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 9/17/14 4:54 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/17/14 4:57 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 9/17/14 5:08 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/17/14 5:17 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 9/17/14 5:18 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/17/14 5:55 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo x x 9/17/14 6:18 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/17/14 6:28 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 9/18/14 1:06 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 9/25/14 3:16 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 9/25/14 4:49 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 9/25/14 6:28 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Not Tao 9/25/14 6:46 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 9/26/14 12:03 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/2/14 11:54 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/8/14 12:55 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 10/8/14 1:09 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 10/8/14 2:15 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 10/8/14 3:57 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Piers M 10/8/14 4:47 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo : ladyfrog : 10/8/14 6:45 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jenny 10/9/14 2:14 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/8/14 4:16 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jenny 10/9/14 2:19 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Illuminatus 10/14/14 7:55 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/14/14 8:09 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo . Jake . 10/14/14 9:55 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo lama carrot top 10/14/14 11:57 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/14/14 12:43 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/14/14 1:20 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Simon Ekstrand 10/14/14 2:44 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/14/14 4:29 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/14/14 4:38 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/14/14 6:32 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/14/14 6:38 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo : ladyfrog : 10/14/14 11:48 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/15/14 12:11 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo : ladyfrog : 10/15/14 2:38 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 10/15/14 5:02 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jenny 10/15/14 10:23 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jeremy May 10/15/14 10:38 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo lama carrot top 10/16/14 1:10 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jeremy May 10/16/14 5:23 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jeremy May 10/16/14 5:37 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/26/14 5:56 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 10/28/14 8:48 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo manish yadav 10/29/14 9:10 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/31/14 1:13 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo J C 10/31/14 1:45 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 11/2/14 3:45 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 11/2/14 10:57 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Matt 12/18/14 11:28 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Laurel Carrington 12/19/14 9:03 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 12/22/14 6:17 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Jenny 12/22/14 11:20 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo manish yadav 12/24/14 4:02 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 12/25/14 6:22 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Derek 12/25/14 7:56 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 12/26/14 2:24 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Derek 12/26/14 6:13 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Simon Ekstrand 12/29/14 3:38 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 3/22/15 1:41 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 4/25/15 4:08 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 4/30/15 3:54 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 4/30/15 10:09 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Daniel M. Ingram 6/10/15 3:37 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 6/14/15 7:57 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Don Merchant 6/13/15 1:20 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/9/14 3:08 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/9/14 3:38 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/12/14 7:25 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/12/14 12:52 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Florian 10/9/14 4:53 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Megan Key 10/9/14 11:25 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Psi 10/10/14 1:18 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo ftw 10/10/14 1:57 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Psi 10/10/14 9:42 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/10/14 12:25 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Florian 10/10/14 4:40 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/10/14 4:56 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/10/14 5:44 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Florian 10/10/14 6:42 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/10/14 7:57 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 10/10/14 3:33 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Piers M 10/10/14 3:45 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/10/14 4:21 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/10/14 4:28 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/11/14 1:02 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Dream Walker 10/11/14 11:52 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/11/14 11:57 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo CJMacie 10/12/14 1:47 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/12/14 2:08 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo B B 10/9/14 7:33 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/9/14 12:49 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/9/14 2:09 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 10/9/14 2:42 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Derek 10/8/14 6:18 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo J J 10/8/14 6:34 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Derek 10/8/14 11:25 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Martin Potter 10/9/14 3:17 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Nikolai . 10/9/14 3:54 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/9/14 4:38 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo FM Cetin 10/9/14 4:04 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Simon Ekstrand 10/9/14 3:47 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/9/14 4:44 PM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo Simon Ekstrand 10/10/14 3:20 AM
RE: the dharmaoverground logo John Finnell 10/10/14 11:40 AM
the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
3/27/09 7:24 AM
Author: yadidb
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I gotta say guys, I think the Dharma Overground logo is not so good emoticon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
3/27/09 9:19 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Thank you for breaking that ice. Aesthetics aside, it's too big, pushing actual content down the page, and takes too long to load. I actually installed an addon to remove it from the page, but it still renders (hiding content) before getting out of the way. I wouldn't at all mind seeing a plain text HTML heading.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
3/27/09 10:44 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I think it's kinda cool looking, but I have to agree about the size. It eats to much vertical real estate on my 13" MacBook, so I've removed it with Adblock: http://adblockplus.org/

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
8/3/14 3:28 PM as a reply to Mike L.
Hi, I'd love to design something new as a possibility.. what are the parameters or guidlines I would need?  

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/16/14 12:50 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/16/14 3:50 PM as a reply to Illuminatus.
That's great. I like it. Hopefully the powers that be will glance at this thread and decide to implement it...
Piers

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/18/14 12:59 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
Or perhaps a play on this???

with this as the circle
Turn it red and change the text to Overground and wrap the text over the top saying Dharma

Edit -
Kinda like this -

Nah....i like Edds better..

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 4:54 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
I like it, Edd's logo, I mean.

Someone want to do it?

Thanks,

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 4:55 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
Or, if Megan wants to come up with something, that might be cool also.

Guidelines? Not any, really, but somehow it must fit with the spirit of the DhO.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 4:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
I like it, Edd's logo, I mean.

Someone want to do it?

Thanks,

Daniel

Well it's done. Want me to prepare a full pack?

You can have it in print format too to put on t-shirts emoticon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 5:08 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
What's a full pack?

Anyone else have thoughts on Edds logo?

Thanks for doing this,

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 5:17 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
What's a full pack?

Anyone else have thoughts on Edds logo?

Thanks for doing this,

Daniel
A ZIP file containing the logo in a variety of formats, e.g. print and web, vector and bitmap, CMYK and RGB, transparent and non-transparent. These will be labelled accordingly. I'll do a small, medium and large PNG version in a folder called Web, with the small one being available for instant upload to the website.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 5:18 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
Sure. We can play with it here and see what people think.

Thanks!

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 5:55 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Sure. We can play with it here and see what people think.

Thanks!

Daniel


In that case I'll just provide it for placement on the website for now. It's available at:

http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/images/DhO-236x140.png

It's 140px high. In my sample picture of how it would look on the website, a few posts earlier, I moved the site navigation links to the right of the logo to make better use of the page real estate.

If it's well-received then I'll make the full pack.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 6:18 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
I actually like a lot of it, simple and clean, three dots which could be the three characterists among the many other references to 3 in religions, the dharma font looks somewhat "computerish" yet not like the movie Tron font, and the upward curve is kinda positive like a smile. The only think that is somewhat off is OVERground is below the line. Seems like it should be above.

I especially like that it doesn't seem zen or tibetian and there is not a lotus leaf to be found.   emoticon

For what it is worth.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 6:28 AM as a reply to x x.
x x:
I actually like a lot of it, simple and clean, three dots which could be the three characterists among the many other references to 3 in religions, the dharma font looks somewhat "computerish" yet not like the movie Tron font, and the upward curve is kinda positive like a smile. The only think that is somewhat off is OVERground is below the line. Seems like it should be above.

I especially like that it doesn't seem zen or tibetian and there is not a lotus leaf to be found.   emoticon

For what it is worth.

Thanks. emoticon

The three dots are indeed the Three Characteristics. emoticon
And you are right to spot the tech aspect, as we are sharing tech and it is on the web (tech).
The upward curve also represents a horizon, of which there are many to be found in the dharma.

Re "overground" being below the line -- no, the "Dharma" itself is what is above ground, as we are openly sharing it. The word overground itself is not the object.

emoticon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 9:02 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
RE: the dharmaoverground logo

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/17/14 9:06 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
I like both of those ideas, and I have some to add I will offer this weekend... The inspiration for me was how can the look of the website be more accessible to women/ a wider demographic.  So I'll post some pics here in a couple days! 

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/18/14 1:06 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
I like it Edd....I kinda think the color might be better as a gradient or even possibly embossed or 3d....but I'm just getting all fancy now...
Thanks,
~D

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/22/14 1:26 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
Pending! ...

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/25/14 3:16 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Sure. We can play with it here and see what people think.

Thanks!

Daniel

Any movement on this yet?

Edd

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/25/14 4:49 PM as a reply to Illuminatus.
Ok, I have sketched out several designs but it may take me another week or two to have something to share. 
I'm getting some help from a graphic designer as well.  It's all fun and I will not be offended if we choose something else of course! 

My inspiration is that it be something that is:

-relevant ; conveys the content and spirit of the site
-as universally welcoming as possible
-conveys the spirit of communicating on equal ground, of sharing information
-is still somewhat technical but also slightly organic which I think helps the welcoming feel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/25/14 6:28 PM as a reply to Megan Key.
Cool Megen...can't wait to see them....I like Edds pretty well...hope yours turns out super.
I just had another thought for a logo....the 3 moments before a fruition graphically depicted would be cool....hmmm dunno how to do that very well...lemme think.
~D

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/25/14 6:46 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Cool Megen...can't wait to see them....I like Edds pretty well...hope yours turns out super.
I just had another thought for a logo....the 3 moments before a fruition graphically depicted would be cool....hmmm dunno how to do that very well...lemme think.
~D


Lol, people would log on to the site and their computer would reboot.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
9/26/14 12:03 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Dream Walker:
Cool Megen...can't wait to see them....I like Edds pretty well...hope yours turns out super.
I just had another thought for a logo....the 3 moments before a fruition graphically depicted would be cool....hmmm dunno how to do that very well...lemme think.
~D


Lol, people would log on to the site and their computer would reboot.


You mean the {ALT} {F4} keyboard Fruition? That would be truly amazing.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/2/14 11:54 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Hi all! I'm the "graphic designer" that Megan is working with. We've been having fun collaborating on several variations and are currently packaging them all together for everyone to view and comment on in this thread. Should be ready in the next few days.

I've also done a lot of web design in the past professionally, so I have a couple ideas to make the landing page more inviting and accessible, but I have to see what is possible in the backend. We can get to that after the logo is all sorted out and agreed on. Look forward to seeing where this goes. Stay tuned!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 12:55 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
Hello everyone in the DhO!

We've finished our presentation for the redesign of the DhO logo and home page. We hope this will serve to revitalize the look and feel of the current DhO website... but may it also inspire more.

We had a lot of fun doing this, out of pure inspiration, and hope it will help and serve this particular Dharma community.

Please download the attached zip file titled "DhO-Final-Presentation.zip"

You'll find a PDF which has the full presentation in it, please look at and read this document first, it has everything in it. We did our best to walk everyone through our rationale and thoughts behind the work, which we hope aligns with the core purpose and principles of DhO.

There are also jpg files of the website's home page, in a folder next to the PDF. This is so you can look at each design in it's normal sizing, as it would be viewed if it were live (you'll see smaller versions of these in the PDF). Hope this all makes sense and is clear to everyone.

Post all your comments here so we can discuss the details and talk about how to move forward.

Much love and gratitude for all those giving their time emoticon
Johnny & Megan

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 1:09 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1. When you see statistics like that, you can bet that "accessibility" is not the issue: it's likely biological. The figure looks rather similar to the 100:0 women-to-men ratio found in the category "people who are able to give birth".

Get rid of a logo because it's "too masculine"? Well done, you just alienated 99% of your audience.

I'm not even sorry to say I think the designs are horrible. Especially the weird "mind control" image for Discussion.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 2:15 PM as a reply to Illuminatus.
Edd:
The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1. When you see statistics like that, you can bet that "accessibility" is not the issue: it's likely biological. The figure looks rather similar to the 100:0 women-to-men ratio found in the category "people who are able to give birth".

Get rid of a logo because it's "too masculine"? Well done, you just alienated 99% of your audience.

I'm not even sorry to say I think the designs are horrible. Especially the weird "mind control" image for Discussion.

Thank you Edd for your wonderfully thoughtful comments. When I see your statistics like that, I can bet that polarizing comments meant to start arguments are about to erupt.
What masculine logo are we even talking about by the way? An old one that is not currently being used? ahhh yes. do lets fight about that...
Hope everyone jumps in and can make this super flamey and trolly instead of just letting Daniel choose or if he wants our feedback he can ask for it.
Thanks,
~D

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 3:57 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Hi, 

This needn't be controversial.  I am inspired to offer this as a way to make this site more universally welcoming and easier to navigate. 

How rich would it be to have more diversity in gender and other ways in this community! 

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 4:16 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Edd:
The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1. When you see statistics like that, you can bet that "accessibility" is not the issue: it's likely biological. The figure looks rather similar to the 100:0 women-to-men ratio found in the category "people who are able to give birth".

Get rid of a logo because it's "too masculine"? Well done, you just alienated 99% of your audience.

I'm not even sorry to say I think the designs are horrible. Especially the weird "mind control" image for Discussion.

Thank you Edd for your wonderfully thoughtful comments. When I see your statistics like that, I can bet that polarizing comments meant to start arguments are about to erupt.
What masculine logo are we even talking about by the way? An old one that is not currently being used? ahhh yes. do lets fight about that...
Hope everyone jumps in and can make this super flamey and trolly instead of just letting Daniel choose or if he wants our feedback he can ask for it.
Thanks,
~D

Edd, I'm sorry that the work we did offended you so much. That was the farthest from our intent.

We are giving up our honest work, knowing that it could be dismissed by this community. We were willing to take that bet because we did it out of honest inspiration and a desire to serve others who are on the path. It's not up to us whether the work we did is actually used here. We didn't get paid for this, but thought we could contribute in a positive way. This community has helped us on our journeys, so we only want to help it expand to others, make it easier to navigate and more inviting, that's all.

The commentary we made, or our effort toward this redesign was not meant to offend anyone or disrespect any work done here previously, including that of your logo work. Ours was just another piece of the conversation to throw in the mix.

Hopefully we can have a respectful conversation about all of the current options, to best serve this community as a whole, not just the men or our individual wants and needs. We do have some more sketches we didn't show in this document. So if people aren't satisfied with any of the options, then we can share those too. We just like these the most.

We did our best, with our own talents and limitations. We're not perfect, and it's difficult to please everyone. We didn't think we would, but hoped we could simply make it all a little more clear and accessable to a wider range of people... that's speaking for the whole home page redesign.

Thanks for your input! The more the marrier!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 4:47 PM as a reply to Megan Key.
Hi Megan & also your friend John,
Well I gotta give you both 11 out 10 for your honest and sincere efforts!
Much as it pains me to say it though I'm not that keen on any of your varitions and do prefer the one offered up by Edd.
However, the less said about his comments (to your designs) the better.
I agree that the current dharmaoverground logo does have a rather military feel to it.
Cheers, Piers

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 6:45 PM as a reply to Piers M.
Hi! i appreciate all the work everyone has done - i had done a couple sketches earlier and hadn't added them.  So here are two.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 6:18 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
How about something modern, simple, and flat.

Evolving from the current "Top Secret" font and color:



Or with a Buddhist wheel


RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 6:34 PM as a reply to Derek.
Oh my god, I fucking love this thread. Everything here is the bomb. The logos and designs I mean.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/8/14 11:25 PM as a reply to J J.
And another one


RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 2:14 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
Hi, Megan,

Welcome to you two. As one of the 1% of women biologically capable of and drawn to meditating, I say, yes, wouldn't it be enriching to have gender and other diversity here! Thank you so much for your time and effort.

I like the eye logo. I'm a professional editor, though, and I admit that I have a pet peeve against all-caps. I always wonder why when designers put logotype in all-caps. Can you explain? Because I'm sincerely curious. They are difficult to read because the words don't have any word-shape without lowercase intermixed. People with dyslexia have a difficult time reading all-caps at all. Other than that, I like the open eye logo--it is open, airy, modern, clean, and not overly symbolic or heavyhanded. The eye also subtly suggests to me the under/over concepts. The Overground started as an Underground. Yeah, I really like it!

I also agree with having a layout like you have for the landing, with everything clear, in blocks, and pictorial with intro, instead of one big, forbidding block of text that the newcomer has to slog through. I'm not sure that the specifc images for those laid out blocks are cohesive with each other in terms of look-and-feel. And I'm not sure that they all express that same clear, open, modern cleanness that the eye logo does. But these details can be tweaked, if desired by Daniel, I'm guessing.

I'm also on the moderator team here, so I happen to know that Daniel is working on some updates to vision, mission, and code of coduct for the Discussion forum/link. These three pieces, plus an unheaded intro consisting of some history and perhaps description of the culture here, would ideally appear together before a user signs into the Discussion forum. I say together because the new code of conduct needs to be clearly linked to Daniel's vision and mission. Could all that go under Discussion but precede sign-in to the forum without overwhelming the user with click-throughs? What I had suggested to Daniel, simply from an editorial POV, is that he use more headings and subheads, and brief paragraphs and brief lists, to break up that wall of unwelcoming text. People on the Web want to scan the page, find what they want, and get deeper in (or get out). I think your breakup into blocks with images is much more modern than just an editor's adding headings. I'm just mentioning this ongoing content revision in case it has any impact on or intersection with Web design.

Edd, I like your logo, too, but you give no source for your interesting statistic. Nor have I ever heard evidence for meditation's being a biological-sex-driven activity. Maybe you meant to say that there is only 1% women in DhO population of meditators? Now, that I would believe and do believe! So hurrah for "more welcoming" and "diversity!"

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 2:19 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
John Finnell:
Dream Walker:
Edd:
The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1. When you see statistics like that, you can bet that "accessibility" is not the issue: it's likely biological. The figure looks rather similar to the 100:0 women-to-men ratio found in the category "people who are able to give birth".

Get rid of a logo because it's "too masculine"? Well done, you just alienated 99% of your audience.

I'm not even sorry to say I think the designs are horrible. Especially the weird "mind control" image for Discussion.

Thank you Edd for your wonderfully thoughtful comments. When I see your statistics like that, I can bet that polarizing comments meant to start arguments are about to erupt.
What masculine logo are we even talking about by the way? An old one that is not currently being used? ahhh yes. do lets fight about that...
Hope everyone jumps in and can make this super flamey and trolly instead of just letting Daniel choose or if he wants our feedback he can ask for it.
Thanks,
~D

Edd, I'm sorry that the work we did offended you so much. That was the farthest from our intent.

We are giving up our honest work, knowing that it could be dismissed by this community. We were willing to take that bet because we did it out of honest inspiration and a desire to serve others who are on the path. It's not up to us whether the work we did is actually used here. We didn't get paid for this, but thought we could contribute in a positive way. This community has helped us on our journeys, so we only want to help it expand to others, make it easier to navigate and more inviting, that's all.

The commentary we made, or our effort toward this redesign was not meant to offend anyone or disrespect any work done here previously, including that of your logo work. Ours was just another piece of the conversation to throw in the mix.

Hopefully we can have a respectful conversation about all of the current options, to best serve this community as a whole, not just the men or our individual wants and needs. We do have some more sketches we didn't show in this document. So if people aren't satisfied with any of the options, then we can share those too. We just like these the most.

We did our best, with our own talents and limitations. We're not perfect, and it's difficult to please everyone. We didn't think we would, but hoped we could simply make it all a little more clear and accessable to a wider range of people... that's speaking for the whole home page redesign.

Thanks for your input! The more the marrier!

John, thank you for your generous contribution of work on this. And thank you for thinking about the entire community here, past, present, and future. I really like the open eye logo.

Kind regards and much appreciation,

Jenny

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 3:08 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Edd:
The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1. When you see statistics like that, you can bet that "accessibility" is not the issue: it's likely biological. The figure looks rather similar to the 100:0 women-to-men ratio found in the category "people who are able to give birth".

Get rid of a logo because it's "too masculine"? Well done, you just alienated 99% of your audience.

I'm not even sorry to say I think the designs are horrible. Especially the weird "mind control" image for Discussion.

Thank you Edd for your wonderfully thoughtful comments. When I see your statistics like that, I can bet that polarizing comments meant to start arguments are about to erupt. ...


Not to polarize, but to (why didn't anyone) question -- the documentation for 99:1 men:women? (In fact, all too much positioned polarization in this forum, rather than 1) checking sources / data, 2) exploring viewpoints as interpretations of sources, 3) the nature of the belief in them,...)

Anyway, the demographic numbers for the (UK/USA) Vipassana / Insight Meditation Movement are about 2:1 women to men. (Could cite papers, e.g. by Gil Fronsdal, to begin documentation search, if anyone's into that.) So, would, off-hand, suspect about the same ratio for the Secular Buddhist scene. (Gil recently began calling his scene "Natural Buddhism", which looks, smells, and tastes a lot like the 'Secular' flavor.)

Edd -- did you mistype? A jest? Or (could well be) 99:1 holds true for hardcore Dharma, BGeeks, etc.? (What Ann Gleig calls the 'post-modern Buddhists'.*)

Another data point -- weekend retreats at Tathagata Meditation Center (San Jose, CA; Vietnamese congregation; Burmese-Mahasi sangha) have 20-30 women, and 5-10 men (at least at the 4 or 5 weekends I've attended).

Or I quess the question could be "What do you mean by 'meditation' "?

*People here are, no doubt, aware of her paper "From Buddhist Hippies to Buddhist Geeks: The Emergence of Buddhist Postmodernism?", Journal of Global Buddhism Vol. 15 (2014): 15-33 (available on-line)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 3:38 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:

...
*People here are, no doubt, aware of her paper "From Buddhist Hippies to Buddhist Geeks: The Emergence of Buddhist Postmodernism?", Journal of Global Buddhism Vol. 15 (2014): 15-33 (available on-line)

P.S. Ann Gleig may also be known here for her earlier paper --  "Wedding the Personal and Impersonal in West Coast Vipassana: A Dialogical Encounter between Buddhism and Psychotherapy",  Journal of Global Buddhism 13 (2012): 129-146 (also available online) -- as this paper provides hard documentation that backs-up Daniel's points (in MCTB about the vapidity of much of the popular scene in Western Buddhism.

Ann contrasts/compares IMS (Massachusetts) as 'East Coast Vipassana' with SRMC (Spirit Rock, California) as the 'West Coast Vipassana' variant.

That paper especially caught my attention, as a ballroom/nightclub dance afficianado, in that 'West Coast Swing' (slower, bluesy music) is a personal favorite, as distinct from 'East Coast Swing' that's high-school type rock-n-roll, that's for teenagers (of all ages).

(But this is not to take sides with SRMC -- see narration of my experience at a 'concentration' retreat there, in the thread "RE: Just Started Kasina practice...".)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 4:04 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
I like Edd's logo.

As for the home page I like the current one as it is. I like the serious feel of it.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 4:53 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
Hi Megan and John,

I'm really pleased, and grateful for your contribution, thanks! Web design and usability considerations require quite a bit of knowledge and skill. I'm not a web designer nor do I have graphical skills or experience. So please take my reactions as just that - gut-level reactions from a participant here.

Yeah, the home page is totally overloaded with information. I like the idea of making it a landing page, to drill deeper. Is there a good way to guide visitors to the major parts - the wiki, the forum, and the janitorial stuff like posting rules? I.e. I'd love people to have a sense of our newly minted posting/moderation rules before they sign up and start contributing to the discussion.

The pod people image for the forum is a bit creepy, to my tastes. Is that how we come across? I'd prefer something conveying more personal, speech-based discussion, a lawn with people sitting around chatting or something.

I like the tandem cycle for "links".

The messages one is quite apt emoticon

The wiki is not just a dictionary, but contains the text of entire books.

Now, the logo designs: they certainly are un-threatening.

The first one didn't come across as trees, my first association was "lollypops"! I like the symbolism, the way they resemble the D and O letters and so on. Generally, too bland for my jaded tastes, too pastel, too much "community center", too little "autonomous space".

The second one caters more to my "hardcore" (in the sense of really committed) sentiments: Flames! Turn up the heat! Burn all the hindrances! The individual flames look too uniform to me, though. This is my favorite, but it needs more of the spicy sauce.

The all-seeing eye of the third variation isn't my thing. Reminds me of the Lord of the Rings movies too much, where I didn't like it either - the design, I mean.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 7:33 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
I agree with Florian's comments on the logos.

Personally, the whole idea of a symbolic logo seems a little excessive to me, carrying connotations with brands, commercialism, and the projecting of a public identity/persona. I'd advocate something very minimal that doesn't try to add much to the name.

I agree that the top secret/military connotations of the current logo are too masculine, but on the other hand they do succeed in succinctly conveying the intended qualities of the site in being serious, goal-oriented, and "hardcore".

I just hope the presentation doesn't now swing to the other extreme of being eagre to appeal to as many people as possible, holding people's hands with lots of pictures (sorry, a little harsh, I know), etc. I actually think there's something to be said for making a first impression with a giant wall of text, my thinking being that those put off by this are unlikely to benefit from this site anyway (especially considering the often gruelling task of persevering through the DN before SE).

Greater gender balance (or should I say, any gender balance to speak of) would be very welcome, but if possible I'd like to see that occur without opening the floodgates, as it were (yes, my Shadow is a total snob, and I'm not proud of it).

Thank you Megan & John for your generous contributions.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 12:49 PM as a reply to B B.
Thank you all for your constructive comments, really appreciate it! This is a great conversation!! emoticon

Without going back and replying with quote to everyone just wanted to hit on a couple points. Appologize in advance for the length of my response!

- As a graphic designer of 10+ years the only time I ever use upper case is with a logo. You'd see it alot if you looked around. Sometimes its the details in how the letters or kerned (space between) that helps the eye, but I'm totally open to giving some revisions on any of these.

- A logo is symbolic, what else would it be? You could just put some bold text in helvetica with no symbol next to it, and that would make it super simple austere and non-symbolic. It could work... we could go in that direction. Makes me think of old scandinavian graphic design where it's just black on white bold type that is set really well, with no imagery.
Something kind of like this style... envision the "Dharma Overground" similar to how "Helvetica" is writen below and rest of site is only bold type headers with chunks of paragraph information, could even have very simple symbols for each category, like just a circle or triangle.. etc: 


- All Home Page images I put in there are a quick way to give an example of breaking up information in an interesting way... not to be solidified in stone. Any of those images can be changed out and tweaked. But I wanted to show the concept of breaking up information in this way. Basically I strongly feel that having a wall of text is not the best way to introduce yourself. (and I personally love words and writing, so I understand wanting to do this!)

- Imagine for a second... introducing yourself to someone in daily life, by telling them a huge story about yourself, all your boundaries, who you are, and are not, and you go on and on like this for 30min, without giving the other party a chance to ask questions! Not even a hardcore Dharma yogi like myself wants to sit and read for an hour before figuring out where to look for quality practical information. At the very least please parse this down to smaller pieces, so we get to the point quick! I'm personally curious, as a meditator of 5 years, in finding out practical meditation advice so I can go sit and get this thing done. Give me bite size chunks to work with so I can get to the source, for my particular path problem.

- I know Daniel has a lot of great write ups about what this site is about. And it's in various places. But, I want to ask the question, because I've heard it from a few in this thread who might fear some kind of change if the site is more "welcoming": Is this about alienating people to just a few who claim to be "hardcore", or is it about helping anybody who is on the path?

Even some of the most hardcore do not want to spend too much time wading through words before accessing quality informative practical information. But this is just my opinion!

- Any way we can break up content to be more of preview with a header (image helps with this) can ease the search burden and help guide the user. Why not make it more streamlined? I would love to use this site without out going crazy trying to dig around for content which is in various strange categories only to leave after an hour or more of searching with little information taken away, but a bunch of peoples opinions I had to wade through. Where's the Gold? Organization and simplicity is key to helping people. The home page design we created is modular, consider what content you want to feature from the get go, and it can be done. What's the bigger picture this community wants to offer?

- Any logo we created can be tweaked. I'm going to post in here all of the variations we did. It will be difficult ultimately for a community of this sort to pick one from all the options everyone has provided, because everyone has a different opinion. It's good to get a variety though to see what has been offered! 







- Probably Daniel and some of the moderators can make a team to take all comments and various logo work, and make an educated decision. Otherwise it will just go on and on in debates and opinions.

- Hopefully the ideas we shared in our presentation can help the thinking and options for what this site can offer, and how to present information clearly and easily. I personally don't think that by doing this, you will open the flood gates for people who are not "hardcore". I think it would simply serve to help more meditators on the path.

- I'm not tied to any particular logo being chosen, but I do strongly feel that a better organization of content would be vital to helping people on the path. In the big picture of life, that's really what this is all about (in my humble opinion)... but I'm not the one who created this community!

Hope this all helps emoticon Mucho Metta to you all!!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 2:09 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
This is a thought on minimalism... just throwing more ideas out there.



RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 2:42 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
Just to add my 2 cents:

I like the Group 2 logos the most, all but the flag. I prefer the triangle, then the eye, then the two eyes with wavy hair, in that order.

I really like the redesign of the front page. It is way too user-unfriendly at this point.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 3:17 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek Cameron:
And another one



I really like Derek's. It loses the military feel without going too far in the other direction (too 'soft'). You want to encourage gender diversity whilst not losing the spirit of the place (i.e. 'hardcore', as opposed to flowery easy-going practise). It also has a charm to it and is visually appealing. Good job!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 3:47 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
It might be worth mentioning that (as I understand it) the DhO pages are created using Liferay/the Liferay content editor so there are likely restrictions to what is possible to accomplish from a layout standpoint - it's not just editing plain html. Liferay uses stuff like themes and layout templates.

There was a discussion a few months back regarding the DhO Liferay theme.

Simon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 3:54 PM as a reply to Martin Potter.
Derek's is good but it looks like it wants to be a sister site of the following dharma sites. And the latter has a history of dismissing the dho.

http://www.dharmawheel.net

http://www.dhammawheel.com

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 4:38 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Derek's is good but it looks like it wants to be a sister site of the following dharma sites. And the latter has a history of dismissing the dho.

http://www.dharmawheel.net

http://www.dhammawheel.com

I agree. I also never understood this style of a wheel. It makes me feel like we are going yahting or sailing.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 4:44 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon Ekstrand:
It might be worth mentioning that (as I understand it) the DhO pages are created using Liferay/the Liferay content editor so there are likely restrictions to what is possible to accomplish from a layout standpoint - it's not just editing plain html. Liferay uses stuff like themes and layout templates.

There was a discussion a few months back regarding the DhO Liferay theme.

Simon
Thanks for pointing this out Simon. Good point. I was doing layouts that could use images as links, in the body of the page. I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure this is simple enough to be doable in this template. We would need someone who knows a little more about the backend on this platform here to tweak it. I personally feel like this platform is fairly outdated ... but not really sure if would be possible or viable to migrate something of this nature to a more modern platform, which would have better options for themes, that would be more user friendly and design friendly. Wordpress has a system called Buddypress -  https://buddypress.org/ - that is specifically for community boards and such. Haven't looked too deeply into it. Going to ask a friend who is more of a wizard in this subject.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/9/14 11:25 PM as a reply to Florian.
I think my favorite is the flames as well, what if they looked a little wilder, something like this? Just a quick thought. Fun lively discussion! I'm so glad people are thinking toward what is possible. 

Attachments:

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RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 1:18 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
Can you write Dharma Overground in smoke letters?

Anyway, not really related, but cool, when a candle is blown out the smoke makes rainbows, (like nibbana)


RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 1:57 AM as a reply to Psi.
That's a really nice macro. Yours?

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 3:20 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
John Finnell:
Thanks for pointing this out Simon. Good point. I was doing layouts that could use images as links, in the body of the page. I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure this is simple enough to be doable in this template. We would need someone who knows a little more about the backend on this platform here to tweak it. I personally feel like this platform is fairly outdated ... but not really sure if would be possible or viable to migrate something of this nature to a more modern platform, which would have better options for themes, that would be more user friendly and design friendly. Wordpress has a system called Buddypress -  https://buddypress.org/ - that is specifically for community boards and such. Haven't looked too deeply into it. Going to ask a friend who is more of a wizard in this subject.


Hi John,

I don't really agree that Liferay is outdated - it is actively developed as can be seen in the github repo and new release arrive regularly. The DhO was also upgraded to the latest Liferay release a few months back. Liferay certainly has its set of problems, it has been developed for a long time and carries around a lot of legacy gunk, but that's true for many platforms, including wordpress.

There were discussions a while back on whether to merge the DhO with Awake networks/use the Awake networks technical platform which also included extensive discussions on the option of migrating to a new platform entirely. However Daniel opted for upgrading the existing Liferay installation so I doubt that moving to another platform is very likely at this point.

The DhO is much more than just this forum, and migrating to a different platform would be a lot of work. I think a much more realistic (and much less time consuming) option would be for someone to dig into the documentation and get really familiar with the Liferay theme'ing/templating systems. I'm sure a fine layout could be developed within the constraints of the existing Liferay platform. Also, even if a different platform (wordpress, joomla, etc.) were to be used, many of the same problems with layout/theme'ing would still exist, there would just be slightly different tradeoffs. Using a CMS always places certain restrictions on what can and can't be done from a layout standpoint. But they also have the benefit of making content adding/updating much easier.

Simon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 5:44 AM as a reply to Megan Key.
Florian Weps (10/9/14 4:53 AM as a reply to John Finnell.)
"… Flames! Turn up the heat! Burn all the hindrances!…"
Megan Key (10/9/14 11:25 PM as areply to Florian Weps.)
"I think my favorite is the flames as well, what if they looked a little wilder, something like this? …"

The fire/flame imagery is appealing, and, btw, appears to be the favorite kasina meditation object (in the form of a candle flame) in DhO.

A possible complication arises, however, in considering this theme in the context of (at least some) Buddhist traditions.

Vedic / Brahmanistic traditions used fire / flames as a central symbol. It is said that part of G.Buddha's radical reshaping of Indian religious tradition was adopting the image of 'cooling', of quenching the flames of lobha (desire, passion), dosa (hatred), etc. as a goal of the Path; the word Nibbana etymologically has to do with putting out fire. (GB's clever tactic, however, was not attacking the flames directly, but simply depriving it of fuel.)

The Brahman, priestly caste had a central duty of maintaining the 3 sacrificial fires. Siddartha Gotama was born into the warrior, ruling caste, so he may have had a subtle bone to pick with the conceit of the priestly types. He (is said to have) said often that being a real Brahman, an ariya or awakened noble one, has to do not with birth-right, but with cultivation and attainment.

Here are some quotations from a quick scan (google) of related information:

"Agni (Sanskrit: अि# Agni), (Tamil அ"#$ Akkiņi) is a Hindu deity, one of the most important of the Vedic gods. He is the god of fire[1] and the acceptor of sacrifices. The sacrifices made to Agni go to the deities because Agni is a messenger[2] from and to the other gods. He is ever-young, because the fire is re-lit every day, and also immortal. … Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the Sun.[4] In Hindu scriptures, Agni is the God of Fire, and is present in many phases of life such as honouring of a birth (diva lamp), prayers (diva lamp), weddings (Yagna where the bride and groom circle 7 times) and death (cremation)."

"HAMAKUNDA (HOMAKUNDA): The fire alter, is the symbol of ancient Vedic rites. It is through the fire element denoting divine consciousness, that we make offerings to the Gods. Hindu sacraments are solemnized before the fire."

"Every aspect in the image of Nataraja represent an aspect of creation. The lord is surrounded on all sides by a circular ring of fire. The ring represents the whole of creation. It is finite, cyclical and filled with energy or shakti shown here as flames."

"Shiva in his pleasant mood, seated on a high seat, with one leg folded while the other rests on the Apasmarapurusha, the deluded self. Two of his arms hold a snake or rosary or both in one hand and fire in the other."

DIYA: A popular type of candle used during Diwali the "Festival of Lights".

Re this last quotation – The Ananda Church (lineage of Parmahansa Yogananda) has a 'festival of lights' as part of the weekly Sunday ritual. The congregation files up to the altar-rail and each gets sort-of annointed at the forehead from a flame by one of the celebrants -- not unlike the 'receiving communion' ritual in orthodox Christian churches. (There's an Ananda Church near where I work in Palo Alto, in a building they bought from the Catholic Church. Actually, I got married there once, rather than in a court house or some Christian church.)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 6:42 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
Florian Weps (10/9/14 4:53 AM as a reply to John Finnell.)
"… Flames! Turn up the heat! Burn all the hindrances!…"
Megan Key (10/9/14 11:25 PM as areply to Florian Weps.)
"I think my favorite is the flames as well, what if they looked a little wilder, something like this? …"

The fire/flame imagery is appealing, and, btw, appears to be the favorite kasina meditation object (in the form of a candle flame) in DhO.

A possible complication arises, however, in considering this theme in the context of (at least some) Buddhist traditions.

Vedic / Brahmanistic traditions used fire / flames as a central symbol.

....

... 'festival of lights' as part of the weekly Sunday ritual. The congregation files up to the altar-rail and each gets sort-of annointed at the forehead from a flame by one of the celebrants -- not unlike the 'receiving communion' ritual in orthodox Christian churches. (There's an Ananda Church near where I work in Palo Alto, in a building they bought from the Catholic Church. Actually, I got married there once, rather than in a court house or some Christian church.)


Interesting... however, I think people who would be bothered by such Hindu allusions would be shocked rigid by outrageous claims to enlightenment as can be found here.

And I really like Shiva. He meditates a lot, when he doesn't smoke ganja. I think more deities should follow his example.

For obsessively nitpicky fun, I'll point out the Fire Sermon and the etymology of jhana.

Maybe we can have flaming lollypops emoticon

Cheers,
Florian

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 7:57 AM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:


Interesting... however, I think people who would be bothered by such Hindu allusions [fire symbolism] would be shocked rigid by outrageous claims to enlightenment as can be found here.

'Outrageous claims here"? meaning DhO? I don't get it, the connection to noticing symbol usage associated with non-Buddhist Indian religion. If fire symbolism reminds one of, say, New Age Hindu flavored sects, one should be quite used to at least 'colorful' claims to 'enlightenment.'

For obsessively nitpicky fun, I'll point out the Fire Sermon and the etymology of jhana.

That take on jhana as consuming fire is new to me, but also works. Some teacher (maybe it was Than-Geof) put it another way: that the kind of fire here is the slow steady burn of a candle flame (shielded from wind), like the steady, unflickering, non-moving intensity of jhanic awareness (at least as defined in some jhana systems).

Those pali words, like ours in English, can have meanings and applications all over the map. Another use / derivation from jhapeti (to burn) is in abhijja "covetousness", as in "putting aside grief (domanassa - literally mental dukkha) and covetousness (abhijja) for the world" (common Sutta intro to concentration practice, or also to sattipatthana practice).

In the case of abhijja, it's the 'jja' burn thing with 'abhi-', 'beyond' (as in 'abhidhamma' -- beyond or higher dhamma, similar to Greek 'meta'). So abhijja is 'burning for things beyond one's reach', so to speak; maybe flaming lolipops.



RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 9:42 AM as a reply to ftw.
ftw:
That's a really nice macro. Yours?

It's not me, it's not mine, it's not myself, haha

It's from a Scientific American Article/Blog

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/but-not-simpler/2013/09/09/waxbows-the-incredible-beauty-of-a-blown-out-candle/

 Just brainstorming, flame gone being synonymous with Nibbana, then there's the Rainbow Body analogy, and smoke being impermanent and ephemeral like our thoughts and our bodies, anicca.

 " And like that , poof, "me" was gone."
The Usual Suspects, (paraphrased)

Psi Phi

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 11:40 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon Ekstrand:
John Finnell:
Thanks for pointing this out Simon. Good point. I was doing layouts that could use images as links, in the body of the page. I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure this is simple enough to be doable in this template. We would need someone who knows a little more about the backend on this platform here to tweak it. I personally feel like this platform is fairly outdated ... but not really sure if would be possible or viable to migrate something of this nature to a more modern platform, which would have better options for themes, that would be more user friendly and design friendly. Wordpress has a system called Buddypress -  https://buddypress.org/ - that is specifically for community boards and such. Haven't looked too deeply into it. Going to ask a friend who is more of a wizard in this subject.


Hi John,

I don't really agree that Liferay is outdated - it is actively developed as can be seen in the github repo and new release arrive regularly. The DhO was also upgraded to the latest Liferay release a few months back. Liferay certainly has its set of problems, it has been developed for a long time and carries around a lot of legacy gunk, but that's true for many platforms, including wordpress.

There were discussions a while back on whether to merge the DhO with Awake networks/use the Awake networks technical platform which also included extensive discussions on the option of migrating to a new platform entirely. However Daniel opted for upgrading the existing Liferay installation so I doubt that moving to another platform is very likely at this point.

The DhO is much more than just this forum, and migrating to a different platform would be a lot of work. I think a much more realistic (and much less time consuming) option would be for someone to dig into the documentation and get really familiar with the Liferay theme'ing/templating systems. I'm sure a fine layout could be developed within the constraints of the existing Liferay platform. Also, even if a different platform (wordpress, joomla, etc.) were to be used, many of the same problems with layout/theme'ing would still exist, there would just be slightly different tradeoffs. Using a CMS always places certain restrictions on what can and can't be done from a layout standpoint. But they also have the benefit of making content adding/updating much easier.

Simon
Simon, thanks for this comment! I totally agree... I thought it would be difficult to switch but it was just a thought. I think you're right about having the same issues in any platform I've seen many in wordpress too.

I do know a technical wizard who is really proficient in wordpress and other platforms. I think if Daniel had a little bit of money to put forth in helping the design for the home page and even cleaning up the theme we are working in now and some of the bugs I've come across (if that was even desired around here), then I could ask for his technical help on that. I think he's reasonable on his rate.

I'm pretty confident the design framework I've been pointing to in my redesign suggestions can be worked into a home page. Even if it were just an html page that lived on the server and which the links clicked into the platform as it is now. We could also go with a theme within the platform like you are mentioning too and see what they have going on. We would have to scour for a good one that we can play with. Or do what I'm suggesting where we do some very basic backend tweaking to get a page that basically links into the already existing categories and theme. And mayb try and do small visual tweaks to the current theme.

I'm simply pushing for the home page to help ease the user into the content with better visual organization and bite sized chunks.

Thanks for the productive and educated feedback! Much appreciated here.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 12:25 PM as a reply to Psi.
I really like the collaborative thinking around the flames and smoke! Cool discussion emoticon

Before we keep throwing more logo options out there (though, I wouldn't suggest anyone stopping!).... at this point it would be very wise for someone like Daniel and the others who are moderators (whoever is making a final decision on this logo and possible home page redesign), to consider this entire thread... all the designs offered and all the comments and thinking going on. Discuss it together, and consider next steps... and then get back to the general community here and give a direction. So that we can work toward it.

What is the clear direction, feeling, and thinking that needs to be worked on?

It's very clear in this thread, that few agree on one thing. We all have very different opinions and vision, which is really cool and so totally normal! Some of us come to agreement for what we like or don't like... and some opinions are radically different. It never really works out in the end this way because it's a stale mate.

This is why it's vital to have a specific deciding body of people or one person to give direction in this situation.

I don't mean this as a judgement, but this is the general sense I get, and a sort of general summary, someone can tell me if they think I'm wrong:

1. There are some people on here who don't want to see much change when it comes to updating the logo and/or website. Though they do agree it needs a little work. They like it to be slightly flat, a bit boring but pleasant to look at, sort of in the vein of being "hardcore", but a bit like it was made in 20 min. They don't want this website to come off as corporate looking, too professional, or too "fluffy and flowy"... this way it keeps out a certain crowd. Possibly they like that the current site is a little bit hard to understand and dig through, and that helps keep the "mushroom culture" out of it... so it only serves the hardcore yogis. Basically, "Don't make it too flashy!"... and "Let's stay more underground here. We like it this way." -- which is a valid place to come from!

2. Another part of this community knows that things could be approached a little differently, and are willing to take that leap of faith. They want things a little more interesting, pushed in a bit of a new direction, and also be more simplified. They believe that this will help things become more organized and inviting to help more users generally.

Maybe I'm wrong about this observation. Perhaps there is a middle ground to meet in?

It's really cool to see the dynamic here unfold around such a thing!

emoticon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 3:33 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
The second one caters more to my "hardcore" (in the sense of really committed) sentiments: Flames! Turn up the heat! Burn all the hindrances! The individual flames look too uniform to me, though. This is my favorite, but it needs more of the spicy sauce.
Florian

Riffing on this flame idea......What makes the Dho different from every other forum??? well lots of stuff but to me it's

Open Enlightenment


So what shows this idea the best?

I think an open hand with a flame inside captures this.
 Here is a couple pictures that I found that illustrates a bit...none really do the job though...






a more stylized flame kinda like the "flame" point on top of the buddhas head in some statues...

Edit:
here is a little better photoshopped thing...kinda like this but maybe stylized or black and white...

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 3:45 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Love it. That's great. Makes me smile.
Man, wish I could do all the funky stuff you guys get up to but no clue how to put pics into threads.
Somehow that tech stuff just bypassed me.....(even though its probably v simple if you know how!)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 4:21 PM as a reply to Piers M.
Piers M:
Love it. That's great. Makes me smile.
Man, wish I could do all the funky stuff you guys get up to but no clue how to put pics into threads.
Somehow that tech stuff just bypassed me.....(even though its probably v simple if you know how!)

It's actually kind of confusing. This is the only way I know how... You have to create a full reply, not a quick reply. Then attach your image and click preview. When you do that you have a link now to that image. Click in the body of reply and click the image icon next to smiley face. Put in the link and hit the green button. Hope you can follow that!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 4:28 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Florian Weps:
The second one caters more to my "hardcore" (in the sense of really committed) sentiments: Flames! Turn up the heat! Burn all the hindrances! The individual flames look too uniform to me, though. This is my favorite, but it needs more of the spicy sauce.
Florian

Riffing on this flame idea......What makes the Dho different from every other forum??? well lots of stuff but to me it's

Open Enlightenment


So what shows this idea the best?

I think an open hand with a flame inside captures this.
 Here is a couple pictures that I found that illustrates a bit...none really do the job though...

Edit:
here is a little better photoshopped thing...kinda like this but maybe stylized or black and white...

(commented to this a second ago, and it never showed up... Sorry if this duplicates.)

Love this D! I really like this idea and the thought of DhO being about "Open Enlightenment". Seems like this idea has some legs and the flame is resonating with a more people than the others.

I also agree it would be cool that it's illustrated and simplified so to become a logo. I don't have the best illustration skills, and didn't get very good feedback on the work we did, so I'll leave it up to someone else!

But that last redition in photoshop is pretty cool cutting and pasting action ;)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 4:40 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
John Finnell:
...whoever is making a final decision on this logo and possible home page redesign...


Daniel.

Perhaps there is a middle ground to meet in?




SCNR ;) In my experience with projects, very few people actually know what to do and how to do it, and they should just do it; "middle ground" is almost always disappointing to all involved.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/10/14 4:56 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
John Finnell:
...whoever is making a final decision on this logo and possible home page redesign...


Daniel.

Perhaps there is a middle ground to meet in?




SCNR ;) In my experience with projects, very few people actually know what to do and how to do it, and they should just do it; "middle ground" is almost always disappointing to all involved.

Cheers,
Florian


Funny illustration. Well please tell me, the very few people "who should just do it"... where are they and who are they?

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/11/14 1:02 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Just messin around with font and placement. I'm sure someone can illustrate something proper and give it some "Fire".

The black one is for the TRULY hardcore dharma yogis!! ;)



And... black metal intro... dandandanddadadaaaaaa....


RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/11/14 11:52 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Still think an illustrated drawing would be better but I kinda like this hand better.




RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/11/14 11:57 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Oh yah, I agree, definitely an illustrated clear version of it!!

What I did was a sketch, not anything to use. And joking about the "hardcores" here.

Megan is a good illustrator... I'm going to ask her. Then I can render it on the computer from her drawing.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/12/14 1:47 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
re Dream Walker (10/10/14 3:33 PM as a reply to Florian Weps. and 10/11/14 11:52 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.)

Very nice images and rationale, that Dream_Walker offers.

The extracted image with added supporting hand ("better photoshopped thing") that finds resonance later in the thread and is explored in graphic variations (John_Finnell 10/11/14 1:02 PM) … This image bears a striking resemblance to another image found in googling 'more images for' in a search on "Buddha & fire". Here's the URL (I haven't yet figured out how to paste in graphic jpgs into posts here):
http://spiritualsoul.net/forum/topics/is-nature-the-biggest-guru?commentId=2273519%3AComment%3A88240&xg_source=activity
(Scroll down a bit at that page to find the image referred to.)
The text there (after the "buddahfire.gif" label under the graphic) mentions "In Buddha’s teachings, light is the symbol of truth that dispels the darkness of ignorance."

This image, though, has 9 points (four enclosing hand-like cupping arcs and a single peak point rising from the center). The one from the Buddha statue has 7 points, in the same structure of hand-like arcs. The 7-point version may correspond to the 7 'purifications,' i.e. the overall structure ofthe Visudhimagga. (The 16 stages of insight in MCTB seem to correspond to elements from the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th purifications / main sections in Buddhagosa's book.) In statues, stupas, temples etc. one can often discern a similar 7-layered structure (but s/t fewer or more layers).

Another instance is the image on the cover of my copy of the Visudhimagga with a similar image over the head of a Buddha statue, but with 5 points, in color blue, and each point curled at the top – a plant-like or water-wave imagery? (That edition is a reprint by The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation, Taiwan, 1997.)

Facit: This a stylized symbol, appearing in several variations – various numbers of points and colors. It can be seen as flame-like, plant-like, even wave-like, and has been used in variously in Buddhist iconography.

Following-up on my earlier post, suggesting that the symbol of fire might be more Vedic / Hindu than Buddhist (which is just a viewpoint), it may be that the color gold, though possibly fire-like, more represents "light… the symbol of truth" (in text at above googled site). Also the imagery of gold is used in the Suttas as a symbol of purity. Notably in the metaphor of 'right effort' as the process of refining gold – s/t blow to intensify fire, s/t sprinkle water to cool, s/t just watch and wait. Fire is instrumental in this quasi-alchemical process, but the focus is on the resultant purity of the gold – the mind's awakening to truth that dispels ignorance.

The cradling-hand image also evokes associations – I've seen it used elsewhere, not recalling exactly where. Maybe SPCA-like or other organizations concerned with environmental conservation. And some associations with religious images. On the other hand, it does nicely convey a nourishing, supporting feeling. The newer image, with the meditation mudra and dhammwheel less so, but it has its good points too.

All this is just to remind that symbols (Dream_Walker's, or whatever might be considered or chosen) can be expected to evoke associations in viewers other than those intended by DhO.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/12/14 2:08 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
1

Nice background information Chris! emoticon
All this is just to remind that symbols (Dream_Walker's, or whatever might be considered or chosen) can be expected to evoke associations in viewers other than those intended by DhO.
I think this will happen regardless of what is chosen. It's impossible not to.
Also the imagery of gold is used in the Suttas as a symbol of purity. Notably in the metaphor of 'right effort' as the process of refining gold – s/t blow to intensify fire, s/t sprinkle water to cool, s/t just watch and wait. Fire is instrumental in this quasi-alchemical process, but the focus is on the resultant purity of the gold – the mind's awakening to truth that dispels ignorance.

I personally think it's awesome to have various hidden meanings and symbolism that points to the practices here at DhO, which are universal and come from Buddhist practice and more. I really like how you are making a connection between Gold and Right Effort, and the whole process of enlightenment. Sweet!

Love the collaboration and discussion going on with this.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/12/14 7:25 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
RE: Enough Drama (and RE: the dharmaoverground logo)

(If this starts off rather boring, skip to the big paragraph at the end…)

Initially, someone mentioned (in RE: the dharmaoverground logo) "The ratio of men to women in meditation is something like 99:1."

I added (in the same thread) evidence that women out-number men in Insight-Meditation circles (in the USA), and likewise in (at least some) Asian meditation retreats in the USA.
 
Then someone added (in RE: EnoughDrama): "Yes, I just saw that thread, and it was a bit ridiculous, especially after  someone looked up the stats and found that there are actually more woman meditators than men…."

Actually, there's nothing really conclusive in this data. We don't have numbers for the 'post-modern' groups (SB, Bgeeks, DhO,…). Nor world-wide – how many bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, how many laywomen/men attend retreats internationally (yogis), particularly in Asian countries. Nor across sects. (There is, however,  data – via google, wikipedia, etc. -- as to Buddhist populations around the world.)

All the above was sketched several days ago
, but shelved as not conclusive or relevant to the discussion. But then today I happened across this remarkable passage in Ajahn Sujato's "A History of Mindfulness", page 287 (emphasis added):

"From here to the end the text [Smrtyupasthāna Sūtra] refers to 'bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs', both as the audience of the discourse, and as the meditator in the discourse itself. This is quite extraordinary, and I don't know if it is representative of the Sarvāstivādin Suttas in general. There must have been nuns and laywomen present at many of the teachings, but the texts were put into the male voice. In the Theravāda, even when a discourse is addressed solely to nuns, the hypothetical practitioner of the discourse is usually a monk. Only rarely are the female practitioners acknowledged. This is rather a shame. The inscriptional evidence, according to Schopen, attests approximately even numbers of monks and nuns in the early schools. Many of the nuns are said to have been learned in a sutta, or in a Pitaka, and so on, so they played their part in the transmission of the Dhamma. These inscriptions usually record substantial donations, of temples and suchlike. The Jains, unlike the Buddhists, made a census of their followers, and the figures consistently recognize far more nuns than monks. Given the patriarchal climate of the times, this is hardly a situation they would have invented, and the numbers of Buddhist nuns may also have exceeded the monks in India, as they do in some modern Buddhist countries."

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/12/14 12:52 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
As a male practitioner I'm happy to hear this!

I would love to see the balance of gender in these practices even out. Giving importance to both! I've ran into some amazing female teachers that offer something uniquely different than male teachers.

I've also noticed that they might even be better at direct perception of the teachings, because they are more inclined toward feeling their way through the path as aposed to thinking too much about it. Having more teachers of this nature is highly valuable! I would encourage more of it, and hope that creating an environment that is more inviting to both parties is of asset to all.

The feminine most likely would not be as analytical as the male mind, so their wording around it will be different. Wouldn't it be nice to have both sides equally spoken to get a more complete picture? Different ways of describing and perceiving the same teachings is of value. I've experienced with first hand. Without knowing Megan, I probably would not be on the other side of SE right now. Her way of describing and approaching fruition was the exact balance I needed to my male teacher's advice. The both combined took me there. It's a beautiful harmony!

Always the words spoken about this practice can cause wild confusion and be very misleading in terms of practical advice, or very helpful, depending on so many factors. I do find it to be helpful at times to have a more anylitical mind in practice, but ultimately to get the path done, it can be such a huge hinderance!

I also believe we are coming out of a long history of male dominated culture. I don't think it's wise to let the pendulum swing completely in the opposite direction as some feminists would be doing. But to seek a nice balance where both are equally valued and cherished. The more voices and flavors of these practices in modern times the better! It just helps normalize the whole thing. People still think Enlightenment is something like levitating and walking through walls.

Thanks for sharing.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 7:55 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
My apologies to Megan and John for my remarks -- I appear to have been in a Disgust phase at the time, as explained here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5604528
There was a possible Fruition the following Friday, so perhaps it was not all in vain!

Oh, and as for the 99:1 statistic, the source was none other than Daniel himself, in his video talk at Cheetah House. I did a quick flick through but couldn't find it (it's like 3 hours long lol). It was going to be some grand LOLathon for me to post the exact minute:second he said it but it really doesn't matter now. I can't even remember if he said it or not any more.

Peace,

Edd

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 8:09 AM as a reply to Illuminatus.
In my experience on retreats, about 70% of the retreatants were female on basically all the retreats I went on, that includes IMS, Gaia House, The Thai Monastery in Bodh Gaya, Bhavana Society,  and MBMC (where I did the most intense practice of my life). I personally would very much like to figure out how to balance things more on places like the DhO, as has been discussed here numerous times over the years. I am not sure exactly what the female to male ratio is here, but it is definitely skewed far in the direction of males, so far as I can tell, though plenty of people post anonymously, and plenty of posters don't clearly identify their gender, still, I think the concensus is that it is far to the male side of imbalance.

Thanks, Edd, for your apologies and insights into your possible stages. Those can be taxing, for sure.

I will look more at the designs that everyone so kindly submitted today. Perhaps we could even rotate them, as Google does...

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 9:55 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:


I will look more at the designs that everyone so kindly submitted today. Perhaps we could even rotate them, as Google does...
That would be sweet!
In every practice group I've ever been involved with women were disproportionately represented (i.e., more women). In the two Vajrayana groups I've been involved with, the Diamond Way group and the Dzogchen Community, it has generally appeared that women are more serious practitioners and men are generally more intellectual in their approach (although these are merely generalizations for which there are many exceptions; still they are perspectives that are often shared amongst members of those groups).

Lots of famous lineage masters in the Vajrayana are women. Even in the Diamond Way group, which is run by the Danish Lama Ole Nydhal who by any perspective is a pretty old fashioned guy when it comes to gender relations/gender identity (to put it mildly lol) has a lot of strong female practitioners in positions of power.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 11:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I have only done Goenka retreats.  As far as I can tell available retreat spots is allocated between the genders on a 50:50 basis.  As all of the retreats I attended were fully subscribed, the attendance based on gender (or genitals, as Katy would say) was 50:50.

I have noted, however, in reviewing the schedules for upcoming retreats in various North America locations (which I have done from time to time) that the women's side usually filled up quicker than the men's side, which would indicate that there is a stronger female demand for these retreats (which are sometimes referred to a boot camps).  This is obviously anectodal only, but I do not get the sense that men are significantly more interested in meditation than women.

I think someone also said (Dipa Ma?) that women are generally better at meditation because their minds are more pliant, but I think it is (as said by Jake) best not to generalize too much in this area.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 12:43 PM as a reply to lama carrot top.
While I am looking these all over, here's a blast from the past: the original Dharma Underground Logo from back in the day when we were on WetPaint.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 1:20 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Alright, I like the following logos:

Edd's original one is good, clean, modern, and nice.

I actually think the Dharma Overground with the red Zen paint swoosh by DreamWalker is hilarious and quite good, but I have been trying to get away from specific tradition branding, such as a Dharma Wheel, or whatever, as they might alienate people from the others, such as Zen people thinking it was a Theravadan Site.

In the formal presentation, I find the specific detailed images with the wires on people's heads and the like somehow to busy and the wire one a bit creepy. Have been trying to simplify and clean the place up a bit, as evidenced by the current theme and logo.

Logo variation #5, the one with the leaves with lines coming out of the top of them in red, green and blue is very inviting seeming. The eye ones are somehow also slightly creepy to me, not sure why, and will think about that. It almost looks like a spy agency logo. I agree that Logo #5 looks a bit like lollypops, but I am ok with that.

I really like : ladyfrog :'s logos: they are clean, particularly the pure green one with the lines the same width.

Derek Cameron's DHO with the Top Secret format would perfect if we had an app. As to the wheel one, while I really like it, I am trying to get away from specific tradition branding.

I am very open to ideas about how to make the homepage convey the necessary information and be serious but also not off-putting: thoughts?

The clean, black and white homepage layout and format is nice, but I was wanting some color, and I do currently like the sort of teal tones of the current logo, as they are sort of serious but also sort of friendly.

As to Liferay, I consider it a totally buggy hog of a platform with huge, obvious errors and weird changes that crept into this version, so many times I have longed for aspects of 5.2.2 back, but here we are, and it has some good points also.

As to money to make things work and be clean and functional, I definitely can hire people on occasion to make this place better. My current budget for this is modest, but still probably could get some things done.

The flames in the hand are all quite fun, and actually oddly reminiscent of the original logo... Still, would need some text somehow, I think, so what would go with those?

I am a total cheeseball when it comes to design, as evidenced by my book cover and the original logos, which I designed. Originally, I had this idea of two people in trenchcoats and dark glasses in an alley meeting to discuss something for the DhU, and then for the DhO was thinking about someone crawling out of a manhole on a ladder with a lantern, but then I am a doctor, not a designer, and this shows, I think.

The DhO hand and flame logos with the script text are all quite nice, actually. I think the last one would still stray hardcore into the territory of Masculine, this being an obvious example of stereotyping, but it is my honest impression. What if you did that but tweaked the color or some other aspect somewhat to make it more inviting? Something that balanced masculine and feminine perspectives, whatever those are, would be optimal, I feel.

Overall, when I think back through them, the first of the black and white flame images with the more cursive font would seem nice, not advocate for a specific tradition, and convey something of the spirit of people holding wisdom and light for themselves, which is key.

Alright, those are my thoughts. I still think it would be fun to try to have rotating logos: programming wise, how hard would that be?

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 2:44 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
I still think it would be fun to try to have rotating logos: programming wise, how hard would that be?


There's a free liferay portlet that should be able to handle that:

click here

I can probably get it set up for you if you want.

Simon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 4:29 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Dear Simon,

Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, that app ends at 6.1, but there was one for 6.2, so I bought that (only about $31, not bad for some logo fun).

It is called Content Rotator and is installed.

Now we just need to make sure we have the logos to have it post up and to figure out how to do that. Will check out how it works. May need help, in fact probably will. Thanks for your continued support,

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 4:38 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Yeah, I am going to need help with that. Thanks as always.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 6:32 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thanks for the feedback Daniel.

So interesting all the different opinions, tastes, ideas, and points of view we all have. I find that to be the trickiest bit of stuff like logo work, how to please and convey all sides in a small little icon?.. But usually what makes it easier is having a final decision maker, and for them to have some direction in mind, while being open to new possibility and fresh perspective. 
Hallelujah for boundaries and decisions.

I still think it would be fun to try to have rotating logos

This is a really fun idea that somehow suits well to the whole logo "problem". It actually has some conceptualness to it too, in the sense that we could see it as a represention of all the flavors which make up the DhO community. It's also saying "Hey we don't have one identity... and we're cool with that." Since this isn't a corporation, or a company where we'd want to have only one logo for people to always identify with and say "Oh yah I recognize that! That's DhO."... unless that was desired, the rotating logos is cool!

I am very open to ideas about how to make the homepage convey the necessary information and be serious but also not off-putting: thoughts?

The clean, black and white homepage layout and format is nice, but I was wanting some color, and I do currently like the sort of teal tones of the current logo, as they are sort of serious but also sort of friendly.

I was playing with this as you could see a couple renditions. We can mess around it with more and cater it more to your vision and taste. I definitely think we could and should do something to help the home page become more organized and concise. I did a variation of that black and white home page with colored symbols next to each category to give color and call attention. Could play on that... I'm happy to help. But, anybody else can take this on too if they want. I also see other areas that need organizational attention and cleaning up.

the first of the black and white flame images with the more cursive font would seem nice

I like the flame in the hand idea that Dream Walker came up with a lot! Megan is going to be illustrating it tonight in order to make it more of a clear stylized logo. I will render it out on the computer after, and put typography to it. Really curious to see what this will look like.

That's my input.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 6:38 PM as a reply to Illuminatus.
Edd:
My apologies to Megan and John for my remarks -- I appear to have been in a Disgust phase at the time, as explained here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5604528
There was a possible Fruition the following Friday, so perhaps it was not all in vain!

Oh, and as for the 99:1 statistic, the source was none other than Daniel himself, in his video talk at Cheetah House. I did a quick flick through but couldn't find it (it's like 3 hours long lol). It was going to be some grand LOLathon for me to post the exact minute:second he said it but it really doesn't matter now. I can't even remember if he said it or not any more.

Peace,

Edd

Hey Edd!

I really appreciate this appology, and fully accepted on my end. I sincerely do hope that you passed through a fruition! That would be fantastic. At the end of the day, this is what it's all about, going through this process. I completely understand what it's like... been there so many times!

And the various discussion about female vs male practitioners is really interesting and worth discussing. Part of the reason we offered logos of such a different angle. I think it's important to recognize both parties and their value, regardless of the possible quantity on any side.

Much love!
John

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/14/14 11:48 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
Hi!  I was also playing around with Dreamwalker's idea - i got a flame i like but did not have time to mess with the hand beyond something that looked like a discarded rubber glove.  John, if you have  use for this let me know i'll clean it up and send it to you. My guess is a simpler flame than this may work better with a hand anyway...

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RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/15/14 12:11 AM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
: ladyfrog ::
Hi!  I was also playing around with Dreamwalker's idea - i got a flame i like but did not have time to mess with the hand beyond something that looked like a discarded rubber glove.  John, if you have  use for this let me know i'll clean it up and send it to you. My guess is a simpler flame than this may work better with a hand anyway...

Ladyfrog I LOVE THIS! Yah I can definitely clean this up! Something about this flame I really like, and the colors are nice too.

Megan just sent me a really awesome hand drawn version of the open hand with the flame based on DreamWalker's idea as well.

I'm even considering now combining this with her hand... but I will do a version of each and then one combined.

Sweet!!! Loving this collaboration emoticon Will post some good stuff soon based on this.

(**also... sorry if there was a repeat of a previous post... weird stuff going on with quick reply function!)

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/15/14 2:38 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
Cool... here is a PDF... let me know if you need anything else : )

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RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/15/14 5:02 PM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
Here is another on the same kindah flame hand riff

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/15/14 10:23 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/15/14 10:38 PM as a reply to Jenny.
No longer a need to Hide, brother.  You cannot hide from We.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/16/14 1:10 AM as a reply to Jeremy May.
- would be more like your sister.  Thought you'd know that.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/16/14 5:23 PM as a reply to lama carrot top.
And you are past the point of being wrong.
I am not past the point of being shocked by you.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/16/14 5:37 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
A buddha is a buddha... The purse is temporary.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/26/14 5:56 AM as a reply to : ladyfrog :.
: ladyfrog ::
Hi!  I was also playing around with Dreamwalker's idea - i got a flame i like (...)
I like exactly as it is.

Daniel
In my experience on retreats, about 70% of the retreatants were female on basically all the retreats I went on, that includes IMS, Gaia House, The Thai Monastery in Bodh Gaya, Bhavana Society,  and MBMC (where I did the most intense practice of my life). I personally would very much like to figure out how to balance things more on places like the DhO, as has been discussed here numerous times over the years. I am not sure exactly what the female to male ratio is here, but it is definitely skewed far in the direction of males, so far as I can tell, though plenty of people post anonymously, and plenty of posters don't clearly identify their gender, still, I think the concensus is that it is far to the male side of imbalance.
Yep, sometimes I think this isn't just so much a medium wherein females yet work on meditation. But it could just be the word "hardcore". I'm not saying change that word, but I remember my mind stopped several times to that word over many months. "What's 'Hardcore?' Am I in the right neighborhood? Is this a windowless weightlifting gym?" kinda thing.


Also, Megan, thank you so much for the Ajhan Chah video you shared elsewhere. In only 6:40 is a rich summary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu7mtlbVBOA

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/28/14 8:48 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
alright, so I installed the thing that would rotate logos, so it says, but I can't figure out exactly how to set up the list and have it work properly: probably requires someone at the next step of programming knowledge above me.

Anyone able to sort this out?

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/29/14 9:10 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
alright, so I installed the thing that would rotate logos, so it says, but I can't figure out exactly how to set up the list and have it work properly: probably requires someone at the next step of programming knowledge above me.

Anyone able to sort this out?

Daniel
     Dear Daniel,
Could you please let me know ,what exactly you are looking for , might be i can help .Is it related to any image roation with javascript/jquery.
I'm not good in photoshop and flash file, but if its related to programing then sure i can help

Thanks & Regards,
Manish Yadav

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/31/14 1:13 PM as a reply to manish yadav.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
10/31/14 1:45 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
Awesome! I love the third one. I also really like the blue lower left quadrant of the first one.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
11/2/14 3:45 AM as a reply to J C.
I like the third set also.

@Manish: the front page has installed on it something to rotate the logos, but I can't quite figure out how to get the list set up properly and have it rotate them through.

Thoughts?

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
11/2/14 10:57 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Glad you like them... those are my favorites too emoticon

I've attached the pdf in this post. If you need any one of them isolated because you don't have the proper tools to do that, just let me know which one and I'll do that for you.

Curious to see how the logo rotation works out!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/18/14 11:28 AM as a reply to John Finnell.
Attached is an animated GIF I made for the banner of website I'm doing: http://www.meetup.com/ABQPragmaticDharma/

I thought I'd throw it in here cause I'm proud of it, emoticon and it's an example of something completely different.  I think the next rev might be something that compresses a lot more.

Matt

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/19/14 9:03 AM as a reply to Matt.
It's beautiful!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/22/14 6:17 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
What I need to make this happen is someone with the technical skills to sort out how to set up the logo rotating app that I installed in this system and you see sitting there empty but waiting on the Home Page. Anyone got them?

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/22/14 11:20 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Keep it simple, elegant, clean, stately, and fairly abstract/minimalist/open.

Use the block-style redesign of the portal that John suggested. With whatever images.

I prefer ladyfrog's flame to all the others--no hand, those lines precisely, and plenty of size to the flame part relative to the logotype. I'm not sure about the colors. Aqua-teal is okay but always makes me feel stuck in the 1980s, and the 1980s were very girly as far as style goes (yes, my bridesmaids' gowns were that color). Maybe a deeper, darker teal would feel more modern, more adult?

The added hand under the flame is too fussy. Keep it clean, uncluttered, and relatively abstract/suggestive. Why a hand holding a flame? I don't get it. Keep it minimalist.

Any added realism is too fussy. Minimal lines.

Rotating logos? Really? Daniel, take 6 aspirins and call me in the morning! emoticon

**SLAPS HAND ON FOREHEAD**

Too many cooks in the kitchen at this point. Perhaps form a small committee that works directly with one designer to make it happen.

Be bold, with minimal, clean, elegant (not militaristic, but not also not girly/frilly/fussy), stately, ADULT, modern.

Take seriously Florian's observation that trying to compromise on the fly will result in a mess . . . or a meta-messy rotation of messes. 

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/24/14 4:02 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
What I need to make this happen is someone with the technical skills to sort out how to set up the logo rotating app that I installed in this system and you see sitting there empty but waiting on the Home Page. Anyone got them?
Dear Daniel,

Could you please let me know what extactly is logo rotating app, is it related to liferay portlet?  Have you deployed any portlet in home page for image?

Thanks & regards
Manish Yadav

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/25/14 6:22 AM as a reply to manish yadav.
Dear Manish,

Thanks so much for your response. If you go to the Home page, you will find the Dynamic Data List Display portlet awaiting someone who can figure out how to make it rotate logos. I would like it to do this on every page, changing every day or so. I played with it and somehow couldn't figure out how to get it to work. 

Any thoughts very welcome.

Merry Christmas to you and all,

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/25/14 7:56 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

awaiting someone who can figure out how to make it rotate logos.


I found this JavaScript to display a different image for each day of the week at http://www.mediacollege.com/internet/javascript/image/daily.html

1234567891011121314151617181920
<script type="text/javascript"><!--
var imlocation = "images/";
function ImageArray (n) {
   this.length = n;
   for (var i =1; i <= n; i++) {
     this[i] = ' '
   }
}
image = new ImageArray(7);
image[0] = 'sunday.gif';
image[1] = 'monday.gif';
image[2] = 'tuesday.gif';
image[3] = 'wednesday.gif';
image[4] = 'thursday.gif';
image[5] = 'friday.gif';
image[6] = 'saturday.gif';
var currentdate = new Date();
var imagenumber = currentdate.getDay();
document.write('<img src="' + imlocation + image + '">');
//--></script>

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/26/14 2:24 AM as a reply to Derek.
Cool! Thanks!

Anyone have any idea how to incorporate that into the theme or whatever? That sort of thing is not at all in my skill sets.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/26/14 6:13 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Cool! Thanks!

Anyone have any idea how to incorporate that into the theme or whatever? That sort of thing is not at all in my skill sets.


I don't know anything about Liferay. But on a normal HTML website, it's easy.

Step 1. Assemble your seven images.

Step 2. Upload the seven images to your web server.

Step 3. Insert the script above into the HTML for the page you want it to appear on.

Step 4. Bob's your uncle (Briticism).

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
12/29/14 3:38 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Cool! Thanks!

Anyone have any idea how to incorporate that into the theme or whatever? That sort of thing is not at all in my skill sets.


Hi Daniel,

I haven't been following this thread closely, life is hectic right now!
Is there any consenus on what logos are to be used?
If there are logo images available and ready I can get the logo rotating running.

Simon

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
3/22/15 1:41 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Finally, at very long last, I have the time and resources to get to making some rotating logos happen and my programmer who helps me sometimes, Artem Khojoyan, has time next week, so hopefully soon I will be able to have a number of these fine designs rotating through at the top of the DhO.

Many apologies for how long this has taken, and many thanks to the fine designers who have contributed to this effort.

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
4/25/15 4:08 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Amazing! The Portlet to rotate various logos has been written and should be deployed shortly. I selected a handful of the images above to see what people though of them. My sincere gratitude to all the designers and contributors who have provided these fine images. If you have more that you wish to contribute, post them here.

Yeah!

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
4/30/15 3:54 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
As you probably noticied, the DhO logo is now different, and it should be different tomorrow, rotating daily through some I chose from this thread. Have a logo you particularly liked from those above or have a new logo to post for consideration? Let me know.

Thanks,

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
4/30/15 10:09 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
As you probably noticied, the DhO logo is now different, and it should be different tomorrow, rotating daily through some I chose from this thread. Have a logo you particularly liked from those above or have a new logo to post for consideration? Let me know.

Thanks,

Daniel

Thanks for making this happen Daniel!

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
6/10/15 3:37 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
At a recent dharma teachers gathering at Omega Institute, diversity was emphasized, and I am a fan.

As I asked some local diversity cultivation experts about how we here might make this group more inclusive, they mentioned that the logo might help to convey that. They imagined a wheel of hands of various shades and sexes so that the visuals contributed the sense that we wished to be inclusive.

Anyone up for that logo design/creation task?

Daniel

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
6/13/15 1:20 PM as a reply to John Finnell.
John Finnell, I like the one that is present the most so far, but Mr. Ingram also has a good idea. Many hands instead of just the two right now.

RE: the dharmaoverground logo
Answer
6/14/15 7:57 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
re: Daniel M. Ingram (6/10/15 3:37 PM as a reply to JohnFinnell.)
"As I asked some local diversity cultivation experts about how we here might make this group more inclusive, they mentioned that the logo might help to convey that. They imagined a wheel of hands of various shades and sexes so that the visuals contributed the sense that we wished to be inclusive."

That particular, rather 'gothic'-looking logo (the two hands cradling the stylized flame image) could, IMO, use some tweeking anyway. The hands appeared to me at first as downward facing claws, probably because the lower edges of the fingers (except the thumbs, which are distinct) are s/w "washed-out", not visible, in my browsers – I had to squint and sort of reverse the image to recognize the hands.

One could say, however, that that Rorschakian perspective reversal is apropos – contrasting the overall supportive nature of DhO (hands)  with the occasional savagery (claws) of some postings.

Also, the flame part is much morestriking, IMO, in the original form with the deep patina-ed golden colors.