Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 2/20/09 11:20 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/20/09 11:20 PM

Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Forum: The Progress of Insight (part one)

Having problems with the formatting. The graph is supposed to look like a little mountain, but whenever I save the page it puts the peak at the beginning of the line. I'll try to fix it tonight when I get home from school

Edit: OK, fixed the formatting.
Kenneth
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 2/21/09 10:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/21/09 10:52 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
I must say, Kenneth, this is written in a style that really resonates with me. Nicely done!

I'm looking forward to part two and all other future installments you may have planned.
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triple think, modified 13 Years ago at 2/21/09 11:35 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/21/09 11:35 PM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Add the date written. They will want to know a thousand years from now.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 2/22/09 2:48 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/22/09 2:48 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
LOL. Thanks triplethink. I added the date. :-)
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 2:16 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 2:16 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Travis80

1) Could you try to explain Kundalini, chi, ki, etc and what you mean by "physio-energetic" process a little more? I assume this all falls under what is meant by the term subtle body and I've never been really clear on this.

2) Is this process always taking place in the background of our life even for a unenlightened mind? How is this process related to the states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep? Or are those three states how the process actually does manifest itself?

3) As I practice I become more and more aware of the extent to which fear pervades my life and how much of my fixations revolve around ignoring and reacting to those fears in how they manifest in my body. They usually originate in my stomach and spread out from there. How does this change over the course of practice? Is it a process of develping awareness of these various areas/energies and the mental processes associated with them that brings up all the sludge of our lives? Do you constantly cycle through these energy centers?

Travis
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 6:33 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 6:33 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Travis,

All of my formal training is in a school (Mahasi) that never mentions kundalini. So what little I know about it is from my own experience, supplemented by occasional readings from other traditions. What I can say is that there is an energy which can be felt in the body, and that if encouraged by meditation seems to rise up through various energy centers over a period of years. This rising up and integrating of the energy at the various centers or nexuses of energy is what I refer to as the physio-energetic process. Eventually, all of the energy centers are integrated one with the other, and the energy makes a complete circuit. I call the completion of the circuit arahatship. This is the culmination of what I think of as vertical development. Horizontal development is learning how to live in the world with or without a completed circuit. This process is infinite. I know that much has been written about subtle and causal bodies, etc, but that terminology lies outside of my field of expertise. These are very interesting things to ponder, but for me the real fascination lies in experiencing these things for myself, which is what I like to encourage others to do as well. I like to remind myself that every moment I spend making love to ideas is a moment I could have spent paying attention.

:-)

Kenneth
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 6:45 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 6:45 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hey Kenneth,

Very well stated. Ken Wilber uses similar terminology, though he classifies the contemplative disciplines as developing Horizontal Enlightenment (arahatship, Buddhahood, etc.), and classifies world view and moral development as leading toward Vertical Enlightenment. Though, he did state that these are arbitrary designations. What's important realize, I think, is that personal development is multi-dimensional. Thanks for your input.

In anyone is interested, Wilber talks Vince and Ryan about this subject at length in the Buddhist Geeks podcast episode "Horizontal and Vertical Enlightenment" --> http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/236-buddhist-geeks/episodes/20574-horizontal-vertical
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 2:07 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/24/09 2:07 PM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Travis,

Your ability to notice this fear is a very good sign. Fear never goes away, as it is a necessary part of being human. Enlightenment allows you to ignore it for awhile (this happens during the Third Rank of Tozan) but eventually, as our own Chelek says, it becomes impossible to hide from your stuff. That's when it really gets good. You accept that there is no escape, and embrace your fear. Then it has no power over you.

Back to practice: you don't need to be concerned about bringing up sludge. Just be aware of whatever is there and you will continue to progress through the insight knowledges. How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Kenneth
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Julius P0pp, modified 13 Years ago at 2/25/09 4:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/25/09 4:52 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 50 Join Date: 8/17/09 Recent Posts
I'm as confused on this as you are, but if you want to read some more, here is an article of Ken Wilber on subtle energy, and at the end of it (part III) he writes some interesting theoretical things on the chakras. http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm
The job to connect the straightforward Theravada attitude+techniques present here with the energetic techniques taught in Asia hasn't been done yet as far as I know, so you have to experiment for yourself how helpful these "support practices" are.
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 3/6/09 9:11 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/6/09 9:11 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

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Author: thittato

From the article:

"...instead of sitting there in the mind like stones, are seen to arise, live out their brief existence, and then vanish cleanly into the nothingness from whence they came."

Is the A & P as simple as this? You note a thought and it's gone, you note a feeling and it's gone?
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 3/6/09 2:21 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/6/09 2:21 PM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Yes, but it's hard to know exactly what people mean when they report, so for the purposes of diagnosis we usually look for a cluster of things. Do previously solid-seeming sensations like pain break up into smaller sensations, like champagne bubbles, arising and passing away? Is there a sense of great happiness? Are there feelings of unity? Do you feel enlightened and wise? Are you more-than-usually creative?

All of these things together would lead to a diagnosis of the A&P. One or two of these things would be inconclusive, and we would wait for more data.
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 3/13/09 9:39 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/13/09 9:39 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: thittato

Pain breaks up into smaller sensations, but it takes a little bit effort. I have to deliberately zoom in on it in order for it to happen. No GREAT sense of happiness, but more a sense of calm joy combined with feeling energized, like something fun is going on, but not over the moon. No feelings of unity, though, I feel inwardly collected, especially since the thought process has calmed down quite a bit and made the mind feel pretty light and quiet. I don’t feel enlightened, but I’m starting to feel that I know what I’m doing, that I actually sit down on the cushion and the technique surprisingly does what it’s supposed to do, so there’s a sense of confidence. More creative than usual? Yes, much the same sense coffee or sleep deprivation often gives me a creative boost.

I could also add that my field of vision behind closed eyelids has a brightness to it that is flickering at a high frequency, and that there are tingling sensations in my hands, feet, where my buttocks touch the cushion, and around the abdomen, and usually wherever I pay closer attention, for instance when I look closer at pain. Thoughts and most feelings (especially the uncomfortable ones) disappear as soon as I note them, and their entrance and departure feels smoother. The noting of it all is pretty effortless, and I’d say I consistently put a label on something once per second, and at the same time I simultaneously notice many other sensations that I don’t have time to put a note on.

I’m not sure whether I’m able to “completely penetrate the object” or only “partly penetrate the object”, but things are moving in the direction of breaking up more and more.
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 4/1/09 5:23 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 4/1/09 5:23 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: thittato

I would also like to add that it was the comment in Kenneth's articel about thoughts not sitting in the mind like stones anymore that was sort of the triggering point. The more I started to notice how thoughts entered and left very smoothly after having been noted, the more things started to move along. As far as I can tell this seems to be the initial phases of A&P, but the strange thing is I haven't seen much of the three first insight knowledges. I've been doing concentration and energy practices for about 5 years, but the mahasi noting technique seems much more effcient for me as it is so powerful when it comes to breaking up the thought process. But maybe my previous practice have left me hovering around this territory for some time already, and that might be why I didn't go through the first three stages. Ever heard of anyone going directly to A&P? Ok, speculating, speculating, I'm pretty prone to that... :-) The important thing is I feel much more confident. It really feels like the technique works as it should. Finally. So now I look forward to crank up the volume by using the technique in an intensive retreat setting.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 13 Years ago at 4/1/09 1:57 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 4/1/09 1:57 PM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Thittato,

I didn't really understand what the first three insight knowledges were until after 2nd Path, when I learned to call them up and compare them to other states. The A&P is a much easier landmark to spot, and you seem to be describing it now. My question is, What is happening now? The A&P doesn't usually last very long, and although you have to pass through it in each sitting, you are probably moving beyond it; the cutting edge of your practice is somewhere else. What happens after the lights and the tingling fade?

Kenneth
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Wet Paint, modified 13 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:02 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:02 AM

RE: Responses to "The Progress of Insight (part one)"

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: thittato

Hello Kenneth,

This is reassuring about the three first insight knowledges.

Regarding what is happening now, I lost momentum in my practice for about two weeks because of moving (it's back now). I haven't experienced anything I suspect would be the A&P Event yet, and I still feel that I'm only at the beginning of something that is going to get much more intense. My mind has also been in such a good place continously for a pretty long time now, so no typical Dark Night emotions going on, but that might also come from learning (finally!! :-)) to make a sharp distinction between content and insight. But I'll pay closer attention to see if there is anything I'm overlooking.

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