Assessing Each Other's Practice - Discussion
Assessing Each Other's Practice
Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 5:19 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 5:19 AM
Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 3279 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Assessing Each Other's Practice
This is an attempt to make overt currents that have been semi-covert so as to bring light to often difficult situations. In the specific case of Trent (Yabaxoule), I have had some pretty profound conversations with him, and honestly the sort of conversations I would expect to have with an anagami at times. I am not here to come to some firm pronouncement or certification of what ever level of attainment, but to see how well these difficult issues can be navigated and how well theory and social interaction can promote good progress in all concerned.
As to issues of timing: the big thing is getting stream entry, which is not necessarily so difficult for some. I know of a few cases of people who got it very young and with very little or no retreat time, and so it is definitely possible. As to second path, at least three other people on this site, including myself, that did it largely in daily life in a relatively short span of time, and I then went on to third path in a few short months after that with only about 1 week of retreat time and with job while married, so it definitely can be done. As to arahatship, reality is there just begging to be understood, and so who knows? One way or the other, the timing thing is clearly relevant in general terms and considering averages and groups, but when applying this to one person is not sufficient criteria.
I hope this discussion provides lots of good nuggets of wisdom that will benefit everyone involved.
This is an attempt to make overt currents that have been semi-covert so as to bring light to often difficult situations. In the specific case of Trent (Yabaxoule), I have had some pretty profound conversations with him, and honestly the sort of conversations I would expect to have with an anagami at times. I am not here to come to some firm pronouncement or certification of what ever level of attainment, but to see how well these difficult issues can be navigated and how well theory and social interaction can promote good progress in all concerned.
As to issues of timing: the big thing is getting stream entry, which is not necessarily so difficult for some. I know of a few cases of people who got it very young and with very little or no retreat time, and so it is definitely possible. As to second path, at least three other people on this site, including myself, that did it largely in daily life in a relatively short span of time, and I then went on to third path in a few short months after that with only about 1 week of retreat time and with job while married, so it definitely can be done. As to arahatship, reality is there just begging to be understood, and so who knows? One way or the other, the timing thing is clearly relevant in general terms and considering averages and groups, but when applying this to one person is not sufficient criteria.
I hope this discussion provides lots of good nuggets of wisdom that will benefit everyone involved.
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 5:53 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 5:53 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Crazywisdom
Just want to chip in with a couple of things I have come across about getting there quick. I have read a couple of times (I think in one of Kornfileds books amongst others) that peeple who are either very old and people who have had close encounters with death are often those who have extreemly quick awakenings. Those who are old will usualy have contemplated imortality in a realistic way and are often not so attatched to life anymore. Those with near death experiences will often have arrived at a similar mentality, at least if they have expected to die, let go and then somehow survived. Maybe that is an indication that the sceleton meditation would be beneficial. According to Bill Bodri it is one of the quickest ways to build concentration and it gives more energetic benefits then most other styles of meditation. Because you are visualising yourself as a sceleton you get confronted with death head on so it should help in achieving the detatchment to life that get very old people quick results. I have always been under the impression that the Buddha taught the sceleton meditation as an insight meditation aimed at contemplating impermanance not as a concentration technique. If that is the case than it could presumably be used to good effect both for concentration and insight.
The other thing is that the Shamatha research project where they surveyed people on retreat for 12 months has showed that the younger the meditatior the quicker the results. They get Jhanas more quickly. That is probably somehow related to young people having more plastic brains. Wether it maters for insight is another matter.
Just want to chip in with a couple of things I have come across about getting there quick. I have read a couple of times (I think in one of Kornfileds books amongst others) that peeple who are either very old and people who have had close encounters with death are often those who have extreemly quick awakenings. Those who are old will usualy have contemplated imortality in a realistic way and are often not so attatched to life anymore. Those with near death experiences will often have arrived at a similar mentality, at least if they have expected to die, let go and then somehow survived. Maybe that is an indication that the sceleton meditation would be beneficial. According to Bill Bodri it is one of the quickest ways to build concentration and it gives more energetic benefits then most other styles of meditation. Because you are visualising yourself as a sceleton you get confronted with death head on so it should help in achieving the detatchment to life that get very old people quick results. I have always been under the impression that the Buddha taught the sceleton meditation as an insight meditation aimed at contemplating impermanance not as a concentration technique. If that is the case than it could presumably be used to good effect both for concentration and insight.
The other thing is that the Shamatha research project where they surveyed people on retreat for 12 months has showed that the younger the meditatior the quicker the results. They get Jhanas more quickly. That is probably somehow related to young people having more plastic brains. Wether it maters for insight is another matter.
Gozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 6:06 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 6:06 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 5/12/09 Recent Posts
Very good Daniel. I think your approach to this situation, while clearly entailing some risk, is also noble in the Buddhist "arya" sense.
Like you, I too have had problems with "assessing each other's practice" and specifically with "roll reversals, meaning that students outpace their teachers." A couple of years ago this caused tremendous upheavel in my life and at the Zen Center where I teach. So I'm particulary sensitive to this issue.
One of the great things about Dharma Overground is the openness here. If we fail, we fail publicly. If we succeed as a group, we also do this publicly. But in either case -- success or failure -- I'm hoping that we can come to terms with one another and not leave anyone hurt. In the case of Trent (Yabaxoule), I had an initial disagreement that was quite testy. I take responsibility for starting off on the wrong foot there. Presently, however, Trent and I have agreed on some matters while disagreeing amicably on others. I'm not in any position to render ultimate judgment about anyone's sincerity, but I believe Trent has a good heart and a good head. I hope that he -- and we -- can benefit in our practice from one another's (virtual) company.
Like you, I too have had problems with "assessing each other's practice" and specifically with "roll reversals, meaning that students outpace their teachers." A couple of years ago this caused tremendous upheavel in my life and at the Zen Center where I teach. So I'm particulary sensitive to this issue.
One of the great things about Dharma Overground is the openness here. If we fail, we fail publicly. If we succeed as a group, we also do this publicly. But in either case -- success or failure -- I'm hoping that we can come to terms with one another and not leave anyone hurt. In the case of Trent (Yabaxoule), I had an initial disagreement that was quite testy. I take responsibility for starting off on the wrong foot there. Presently, however, Trent and I have agreed on some matters while disagreeing amicably on others. I'm not in any position to render ultimate judgment about anyone's sincerity, but I believe Trent has a good heart and a good head. I hope that he -- and we -- can benefit in our practice from one another's (virtual) company.
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:10 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:10 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
this is an interesting question. i'm often interested to know where others are at. however, my own readings of the models, or models in general, is that they are semi-arbitrary (and how semi- is semi- i really can't tell), and because of this, it makes assessment difficult. all i can know is how enlightened i consider someone else to be, based on how much i resonate with what they think or see or say.
i have a theory too that different people's blind spots are different, and while the paths clear them up they don't necessarily in the same sequence or order. so a stream-enterer may understand a thing or two that some anagamis dont, for example, even though an anagami probably has a generally better overall understanding.
another thing i think is that views are conditioned and completely dependent on a person's constituent memories and experiences. i am more and more of the thought that different people may find different results, possibly even from doing the same practices. from temperament, to environment, down to moment-to-moment experience and conditioning, we may really all just end up in different places understanding different things. the way i see it, language may actually be bringing us together more than keeping us apart; our experiences are probably more different and incomparable than discussing them makes them out to be.
(cont.)
i have a theory too that different people's blind spots are different, and while the paths clear them up they don't necessarily in the same sequence or order. so a stream-enterer may understand a thing or two that some anagamis dont, for example, even though an anagami probably has a generally better overall understanding.
another thing i think is that views are conditioned and completely dependent on a person's constituent memories and experiences. i am more and more of the thought that different people may find different results, possibly even from doing the same practices. from temperament, to environment, down to moment-to-moment experience and conditioning, we may really all just end up in different places understanding different things. the way i see it, language may actually be bringing us together more than keeping us apart; our experiences are probably more different and incomparable than discussing them makes them out to be.
(cont.)
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:31 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:31 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
because i think we could very well end up different places, i'm seeing where as a matter of intent as much as of discovery. and so the below:
recently, i've been noticing that i have an 'other' whose point of view i am trying to change and convince of 'my own'.. and then i find it funny that i have something of that nature to convey at all. like, when i really think something, i see it as a fact, it's not something i need to convince myself of, and is not something that i can ever get across as a belief or a concept to someone else. beliefs somehow are begging to be shared, so the sharing of them, and sometimes conflicting among them, seems inevitable. but when i examine a belief with an open and investigative mind, a light kind of shines upon it, some physical clinging feeling lets go, and that mindset and feeling of self disappears, along with the urge or feeling of need to share it. a relative absence of this leaves me more open to sensing things, and enough of this absence and enough presence of sensing makes the world literally shimmer, and me feel transparent and kind of like glass. like i've stepped outside some kind of illusory world, and entered a place of pristine purity. sometimes moving this direction can be lonely, but at times when its clear, rather than 'clearing up', its a really marvelous kind of alone-ness. instead of it being just an empty place, my experience is of a fantasy-like eternal kind of paradise world that has always been here, and is being here anew at each moment. meeting other people in this world feels very different, and so do discussions. i could describe this as a dream, or as an after-life, but happening right now. when there, i really feel like i've arrived, and then there's no need to convince others of it.
just writing this in the possibility that anyone else shares my vision.
recently, i've been noticing that i have an 'other' whose point of view i am trying to change and convince of 'my own'.. and then i find it funny that i have something of that nature to convey at all. like, when i really think something, i see it as a fact, it's not something i need to convince myself of, and is not something that i can ever get across as a belief or a concept to someone else. beliefs somehow are begging to be shared, so the sharing of them, and sometimes conflicting among them, seems inevitable. but when i examine a belief with an open and investigative mind, a light kind of shines upon it, some physical clinging feeling lets go, and that mindset and feeling of self disappears, along with the urge or feeling of need to share it. a relative absence of this leaves me more open to sensing things, and enough of this absence and enough presence of sensing makes the world literally shimmer, and me feel transparent and kind of like glass. like i've stepped outside some kind of illusory world, and entered a place of pristine purity. sometimes moving this direction can be lonely, but at times when its clear, rather than 'clearing up', its a really marvelous kind of alone-ness. instead of it being just an empty place, my experience is of a fantasy-like eternal kind of paradise world that has always been here, and is being here anew at each moment. meeting other people in this world feels very different, and so do discussions. i could describe this as a dream, or as an after-life, but happening right now. when there, i really feel like i've arrived, and then there's no need to convince others of it.
just writing this in the possibility that anyone else shares my vision.
John Finley, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:54 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 7:54 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 11 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
I think addressing issues like this directly is the best route with this community. No doubt it will be handled in a mature, sensible manner.
Personally, when someone tells me they have done something that seems unbelievable or unlikely to me for whatever reason, I always try to keep in mind that whether or not it ultimately proves to be true, it is their sincere belief/perception right now that it 's true and I try to respect that, especially if I sense them digging in their heels and refusing to budge on their position.
I also try to keep in mind a quote from a film I watched years ago. I don't recall the name of the film, but the line went something like: "Someday, a man with a deck of cards is going to bet you that he can tap the deck and make the Jack of Hearts jump out and spit cider in your ear. Don't take that bet, because as sure as you do, you're gonna end up with an ear full of cider."
John
Personally, when someone tells me they have done something that seems unbelievable or unlikely to me for whatever reason, I always try to keep in mind that whether or not it ultimately proves to be true, it is their sincere belief/perception right now that it 's true and I try to respect that, especially if I sense them digging in their heels and refusing to budge on their position.
I also try to keep in mind a quote from a film I watched years ago. I don't recall the name of the film, but the line went something like: "Someday, a man with a deck of cards is going to bet you that he can tap the deck and make the Jack of Hearts jump out and spit cider in your ear. Don't take that bet, because as sure as you do, you're gonna end up with an ear full of cider."
John
beta wave, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 9:12 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 9:12 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent PostsKenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:33 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:33 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
To Trent (Yabaxoule): I am one of those who finds your claims less than credible. I may be wrong, in which case you are a prodigy. My sense is that you are a very bright young man who has memorized the descriptions of insight given here at DhO and in Daniel's book. I don't doubt your sincerity, just your self-evaluation.
I've been wrong before. I did not accept Daniel's awakening for several years, until I was able to see for myself what he was talking about. The difference, of course, is that now I find myself in a position to evaluate both Daniel's claims and your own, and although these diagnoses are ALWAYS subject to error, Daniel's enlightenment looks complete, whereas yours does not.
If I am right, we are seeing the dark side of transparency. In other words, when we put all of the information out in the open, we run the risk of indoctrinating people so thoroughly that they become "virtually enlightened." Virtual enlightenment is what happens when someone forms a concept of enlightenment and mistakes it for insight. Such a person would have difficulty separating the content of his or her mind from the direct apprehension of reality. There are several regular posters here at DhO that appear to me to be Awake. You are not yet one of them.
I post this with some reluctance, as I do not want to hurt or embarrass you. But as you have agreed to this public scrutiny, it makes sense to go public with my opinion; along with public claims of enlightenment comes the risk that someone will dispute the claim.
My main concern is for those who may read this forum and get the mistaken impression that they will Awaken if only they read and think enough about it. To my knowledge, this is not the case. For most people, enlightenment will take a level of commitment and determination that has no parallel in any other human endeavor.
I've been wrong before. I did not accept Daniel's awakening for several years, until I was able to see for myself what he was talking about. The difference, of course, is that now I find myself in a position to evaluate both Daniel's claims and your own, and although these diagnoses are ALWAYS subject to error, Daniel's enlightenment looks complete, whereas yours does not.
If I am right, we are seeing the dark side of transparency. In other words, when we put all of the information out in the open, we run the risk of indoctrinating people so thoroughly that they become "virtually enlightened." Virtual enlightenment is what happens when someone forms a concept of enlightenment and mistakes it for insight. Such a person would have difficulty separating the content of his or her mind from the direct apprehension of reality. There are several regular posters here at DhO that appear to me to be Awake. You are not yet one of them.
I post this with some reluctance, as I do not want to hurt or embarrass you. But as you have agreed to this public scrutiny, it makes sense to go public with my opinion; along with public claims of enlightenment comes the risk that someone will dispute the claim.
My main concern is for those who may read this forum and get the mistaken impression that they will Awaken if only they read and think enough about it. To my knowledge, this is not the case. For most people, enlightenment will take a level of commitment and determination that has no parallel in any other human endeavor.
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:42 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:42 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: marinr
If Trent is a coder then I'm not surprised - we sit and do magick many hours per day :-)
Seriously - there are also other things to consider regarding the issues of timing. We have a lot of information available on the Net, which allows people to deduce the heart of the matter from just reading the spiritual teachings available online.
For an example of this, my inspiration is the teaching on dependent origination. When I first saw it I could not understand from where it's coming from. It was not in the reach of the mind states that were known to me. "What makes somebody write this ?!" And I couldn't discard it as just symbolic or even delusional.
Which gets me to a strategy I use for progress and assessment - If somebody is writing clearly and I don't have an experiential understanding of the mind state that is the cause behind their words - then I consider that person more realized and I listen carefully.
On the other hand, regarding this progress in less then a year. Is it really just one year? I currently think that this thing is a natural progress that is 'building itself up' from before I got into meditation practice. So, it's hard to just say: one year.
If Trent is a coder then I'm not surprised - we sit and do magick many hours per day :-)
Seriously - there are also other things to consider regarding the issues of timing. We have a lot of information available on the Net, which allows people to deduce the heart of the matter from just reading the spiritual teachings available online.
For an example of this, my inspiration is the teaching on dependent origination. When I first saw it I could not understand from where it's coming from. It was not in the reach of the mind states that were known to me. "What makes somebody write this ?!" And I couldn't discard it as just symbolic or even delusional.
Which gets me to a strategy I use for progress and assessment - If somebody is writing clearly and I don't have an experiential understanding of the mind state that is the cause behind their words - then I consider that person more realized and I listen carefully.
On the other hand, regarding this progress in less then a year. Is it really just one year? I currently think that this thing is a natural progress that is 'building itself up' from before I got into meditation practice. So, it's hard to just say: one year.
Trent S H, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:52 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 12:52 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Kenneth (and all),
I do not take any offense to your opinion, nor others who share it. There are many reasons why my posts would lead someone to believe that "I am not yet one of them." Although I won't hash all of that out right now, as I am in a hurry, I will mention that my favorite half of reality is the relative, and that I am more concerned with the moral well-being of the world than I am with ending the fundamental suffering therein. I have also studied philosophy for far longer than the dharma, and so I speak through a very analytical philosophical/theoretical perspective, rather than what most people would find to be the norm for such communities.
That said, I ask that you give my claims a fair chance, as I do not feel you have done that at all. I have tried to discuss higher level attainments, such as Nirodha Samapatti, with you, and you have ignored those chances. How can you make accusations when you have created a self-fulfilling prophecy which gives me no chance? Of course it is possible that I have simply memorized everything I've ever heard about these states and stages, but if you draw the line there, you will never know whether or not that is the truth.
Anyhow, I do not plan to write a biography here to defend something that I feel I have no investment in defending. What I will do is answer any question that can be turned my way. I do have a busy life, however, and so if there are many of them or many which have a lot of depth, I will just have to get to them when I have time. I have other priorities in life, one of which is my personal meditation practice.
So with all that out of the way, ask away fellas.
I do not take any offense to your opinion, nor others who share it. There are many reasons why my posts would lead someone to believe that "I am not yet one of them." Although I won't hash all of that out right now, as I am in a hurry, I will mention that my favorite half of reality is the relative, and that I am more concerned with the moral well-being of the world than I am with ending the fundamental suffering therein. I have also studied philosophy for far longer than the dharma, and so I speak through a very analytical philosophical/theoretical perspective, rather than what most people would find to be the norm for such communities.
That said, I ask that you give my claims a fair chance, as I do not feel you have done that at all. I have tried to discuss higher level attainments, such as Nirodha Samapatti, with you, and you have ignored those chances. How can you make accusations when you have created a self-fulfilling prophecy which gives me no chance? Of course it is possible that I have simply memorized everything I've ever heard about these states and stages, but if you draw the line there, you will never know whether or not that is the truth.
Anyhow, I do not plan to write a biography here to defend something that I feel I have no investment in defending. What I will do is answer any question that can be turned my way. I do have a busy life, however, and so if there are many of them or many which have a lot of depth, I will just have to get to them when I have time. I have other priorities in life, one of which is my personal meditation practice.
So with all that out of the way, ask away fellas.
Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 1:13 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 1:13 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Trent,
Thank you for your gracious reply. I'd be happy to discuss Nirodha Samapatti with you. I remember discussing it at length on one of the threads here. We could resurrect that thread (I think it was called Nirodha Samapatti).
Kenneth
Thank you for your gracious reply. I'd be happy to discuss Nirodha Samapatti with you. I remember discussing it at length on one of the threads here. We could resurrect that thread (I think it was called Nirodha Samapatti).
Kenneth
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:04 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:04 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb
I find the way this issue is discussed here very interesting, a very open and truthful approach indeed which is quite inspiring.
Kenneth, do you think its possible for someone to mistake such high level of attainment? Wouldn't someone who is close to arahatship know for certain that is the case, and the other way around?
I find the way this issue is discussed here very interesting, a very open and truthful approach indeed which is quite inspiring.
Kenneth, do you think its possible for someone to mistake such high level of attainment? Wouldn't someone who is close to arahatship know for certain that is the case, and the other way around?
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:13 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:13 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/26/09 Recent Posts
to throw in my own two cents--and to be clear i am not judging anyone's attainments here--i've seen people really, really fuck up their personal lives by simply hypnotizing themselves into believing they have some attainment when they do not. IMO that, combined with faulty expectations about the process of awakening, makes for a quick route to mental illness
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:20 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:20 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent PostsKenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:28 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 2:28 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Yadidb,
The short answer is that I don't know.
I suppose that just about anything is possible. That is, it's possible to become fully awake in less than a year and it's possible to mistake thoughts for Awakening. Neither is likely. But in a forum that is accessible to everyone on planet Earth who has access to the internet, we are likely to see some unlikely events.
I've often said that the defining characteristic of arahatship is simply that you know you are done. But anything subjective is subject to misinterpretation. (Come to think of it, anything objective is also subject to misinterpretation.) There are no absolutes in speaking of the Absolute.
Daniel has reported that he believed himself to be an arahat some number of times, only to realize that he had been mistaken. At some point, the doubt failed to recur, and he understood that he had indeed come to the end of the process.
For me, it was more straightforward; I doubted until I no longer doubted, and I haven't doubted since.
The short answer is that I don't know.
I suppose that just about anything is possible. That is, it's possible to become fully awake in less than a year and it's possible to mistake thoughts for Awakening. Neither is likely. But in a forum that is accessible to everyone on planet Earth who has access to the internet, we are likely to see some unlikely events.
I've often said that the defining characteristic of arahatship is simply that you know you are done. But anything subjective is subject to misinterpretation. (Come to think of it, anything objective is also subject to misinterpretation.) There are no absolutes in speaking of the Absolute.
Daniel has reported that he believed himself to be an arahat some number of times, only to realize that he had been mistaken. At some point, the doubt failed to recur, and he understood that he had indeed come to the end of the process.
For me, it was more straightforward; I doubted until I no longer doubted, and I haven't doubted since.
Trent S H, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 3:02 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 3:02 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Well, to clear one thing up, I do not think I am done. I will call myself an anagami until the point when I am satisfied with The Answer; as that seems to be the only clear criteria that everyone seems to agree with as "complete awakening." I do think that I am extremely close to the end, but I have screwed that up quite a few times before. With that in mind, those times of screwing up are half of the reason I can rest comfortably knowing that I am not done. I have become quite keen as to how lacking in perspective I can be.
A good example of this are the early shifts, hell, even the first A&P. Each shift was unimaginable, and yet so simple and perfect. The point I am stressing is that each shift feels so damn good, and so relatively clear, that when coupled with one's intense desire to make progress, can end up creating a propensity for delusion. There are many ways of reacting to that, and one of the ways I reacted was by disdaining the maps and telling myself that I would never be satisfied. I approached it this way because the approach of "run fast and don't look back" seemed as practical as any, and especially true because of how muddy the whole can be.
With that said, I put faith in those who have finished, and so when I reach a point where I feel more delusional telling myself that there's something left than telling myself I am done-- while simultaneously no longer feeling a pull to do practice-- while also knowing complete, unwavering moment-to-moment non-duality-- also after mastering Nirodha Samapatti-- I will feel worthy to call myself an Arhat. Until then, I will not do so.
A good example of this are the early shifts, hell, even the first A&P. Each shift was unimaginable, and yet so simple and perfect. The point I am stressing is that each shift feels so damn good, and so relatively clear, that when coupled with one's intense desire to make progress, can end up creating a propensity for delusion. There are many ways of reacting to that, and one of the ways I reacted was by disdaining the maps and telling myself that I would never be satisfied. I approached it this way because the approach of "run fast and don't look back" seemed as practical as any, and especially true because of how muddy the whole can be.
With that said, I put faith in those who have finished, and so when I reach a point where I feel more delusional telling myself that there's something left than telling myself I am done-- while simultaneously no longer feeling a pull to do practice-- while also knowing complete, unwavering moment-to-moment non-duality-- also after mastering Nirodha Samapatti-- I will feel worthy to call myself an Arhat. Until then, I will not do so.
C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 3:19 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/26/09 3:19 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 7/26/09 Recent Posts
interesting thread. reminds me of why Tibetan monks engage in debates as part of their practice. see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHE680sxJiA
but since i'm one of those who have yet to experience stream entry, then i'll just watch from the sidelines and see what transpires.
that said, i'd like to offer my two cents. if realization can't be clearly captured in words, why attempt to settle this on an online forum with written text? most anything can be faked with written text. i remember Shinzen Young's response when he was asked how he knows when someone has an awakening experience. his answer was that he can tell it by observing the subtle *movements* and *behavior*, as well as the way they *talk*.
in short? do you seriously think you can settle this in a purely online forum?
that is all. i'll leave the floor to the "titans"
~C
but since i'm one of those who have yet to experience stream entry, then i'll just watch from the sidelines and see what transpires.
that said, i'd like to offer my two cents. if realization can't be clearly captured in words, why attempt to settle this on an online forum with written text? most anything can be faked with written text. i remember Shinzen Young's response when he was asked how he knows when someone has an awakening experience. his answer was that he can tell it by observing the subtle *movements* and *behavior*, as well as the way they *talk*.
in short? do you seriously think you can settle this in a purely online forum?
that is all. i'll leave the floor to the "titans"
~C
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 2:14 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 2:14 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: marinr
I don't know, it would be hard to fake it. Words on the forum and movements are not at all that different. Direct experience reveals equivalence where before there was none. 'Theoretical' practitioners are not aware of this and they mix things up, even though it sounds 'logical' or consistent. They also seem to defend something that is not present in those with direct understanding.
I don't know, it would be hard to fake it. Words on the forum and movements are not at all that different. Direct experience reveals equivalence where before there was none. 'Theoretical' practitioners are not aware of this and they mix things up, even though it sounds 'logical' or consistent. They also seem to defend something that is not present in those with direct understanding.
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 3:39 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 3:39 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: msj123
I have several feelings on this.
One, I think stepping up with these issues has returned credibility to this site. There are plenty of sites where people can declare themselves to be almost anything and receive nothing but unconditional support. I was fearing that this site was going to degenerate to 99 quickly enlightened teachers and 1 struggling student for all them to help.
Two, Gurdjieff once wrote, and I tend to agree, that one can usually assess when one is at a lower step on the ladder than you, but impossible if that person is higher. I think this comes from knowing your personal territory-- you know what it's like to be at the lower stages and can recognize it in others. Of course, there are exceptions--- I think Kenneth's attainment (whatever that may be) is high and hits the reader of his posts like a ton of bricks. Reading MCTB also suggests that-- I can literally see where the book separates from my knowledge and I'm completely lost.
Third, most people tend to agree that at least Stream Entry comes with a major shift. From my experience (with meditation, not Stream Entry, I'm not there yet), meditation produces neurological changes. I no longer see and react to the world the way I used to. These changes take time, just as it took time to grow from a child to an adult. I don't know if it is possible to rewire the brain in a short period of time.
Fourth, when I first started tai chi, I remember the teachers saying "Relax, relax," and me thinking "But I AM relaxed!" 6 months later, I was "Oh wait... this is REALLY relaxed!" Then another six months "No, THIS is REALLY REALLY relaxed!" Same word, different depths of meaning. I think this is what may cause part of people mistaking where they are.
Anyway, thanks for bringing this forward. As I said, I think it restores credibility.
Matt
I have several feelings on this.
One, I think stepping up with these issues has returned credibility to this site. There are plenty of sites where people can declare themselves to be almost anything and receive nothing but unconditional support. I was fearing that this site was going to degenerate to 99 quickly enlightened teachers and 1 struggling student for all them to help.
Two, Gurdjieff once wrote, and I tend to agree, that one can usually assess when one is at a lower step on the ladder than you, but impossible if that person is higher. I think this comes from knowing your personal territory-- you know what it's like to be at the lower stages and can recognize it in others. Of course, there are exceptions--- I think Kenneth's attainment (whatever that may be) is high and hits the reader of his posts like a ton of bricks. Reading MCTB also suggests that-- I can literally see where the book separates from my knowledge and I'm completely lost.
Third, most people tend to agree that at least Stream Entry comes with a major shift. From my experience (with meditation, not Stream Entry, I'm not there yet), meditation produces neurological changes. I no longer see and react to the world the way I used to. These changes take time, just as it took time to grow from a child to an adult. I don't know if it is possible to rewire the brain in a short period of time.
Fourth, when I first started tai chi, I remember the teachers saying "Relax, relax," and me thinking "But I AM relaxed!" 6 months later, I was "Oh wait... this is REALLY relaxed!" Then another six months "No, THIS is REALLY REALLY relaxed!" Same word, different depths of meaning. I think this is what may cause part of people mistaking where they are.
Anyway, thanks for bringing this forward. As I said, I think it restores credibility.
Matt
Nathan I S, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 5:02 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 5:02 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/26/09 Recent Posts
Thanks, Matt, for voicing something. There was a quip to the extent of "I don't think stream-entry is a big deal" somewhere here, and when someone says something like that it's hard to sort out what in one's reation to that is their delusion and what is your own projection. I tend to ignore claims about attainment that don't have some practical component. Same thing seems to be happening with the maps. They are re-assuring on an individual level: i found myself experience an almost intolerable amount of anger over every sensation on the last retreat I'd been on after going through lots of generalized sadness. I'd read about that before. This helped me avoid getting caught by the surprising intensity of what was happening, and let me know that the object wanted to broaden so I could partly adjust the subtelties of practice. But that's it. Otherwise the map is just so many more letters on a piece of paper.
I've said this before. I'm not a teacher. I attempt to make it clear that any "advice" I give is not advice, but me relating something I believe relevant from my own practice.
I've said this before. I'm not a teacher. I attempt to make it clear that any "advice" I give is not advice, but me relating something I believe relevant from my own practice.
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 7:02 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 7:02 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
This is interesting! Not least because I'm sure I landed fourth path a couple of weeks ago. This thread puts me and others in (or who will be in) the same position of claiming a specific path under a particular obligation, I think, which seems to be this: to talk openly and honestly about where we think we are, and about the experiences and understandings we believe betoken the attainment at which we think we've arrived.
For anyone interested, I've posted a full, open account of my experience on my website: http://tinyurl.com/d73yyl
I've been wrong before about this: I believed I'd got fourth path when I was at third. Now, however, the whole field of awareness is saturated with Emptiness, whereas at third path it was a particular point within the field, which still had a sense of 'me' set against it. The sense of certainty this time is absolute, because with every sensation being instantly seen through as empty as it arises, there simply is no ground on which duality *can* set itself up any more. It seems quite clear at the moment that there is nowehere else to go; nothing else that can be done or needs doing.
So now I've outed myself as someone who thinks he's an arahat! I should point out that the practice I've followed draws heavily on the Western Magical Tradition and may seem unusual to some. But I'm happy to offer myself as a test case to anyone who feels moved to read my account or comment.
And if I'm wrong, I hope I shall be corrected! :-)
For anyone interested, I've posted a full, open account of my experience on my website: http://tinyurl.com/d73yyl
I've been wrong before about this: I believed I'd got fourth path when I was at third. Now, however, the whole field of awareness is saturated with Emptiness, whereas at third path it was a particular point within the field, which still had a sense of 'me' set against it. The sense of certainty this time is absolute, because with every sensation being instantly seen through as empty as it arises, there simply is no ground on which duality *can* set itself up any more. It seems quite clear at the moment that there is nowehere else to go; nothing else that can be done or needs doing.
So now I've outed myself as someone who thinks he's an arahat! I should point out that the practice I've followed draws heavily on the Western Magical Tradition and may seem unusual to some. But I'm happy to offer myself as a test case to anyone who feels moved to read my account or comment.
And if I'm wrong, I hope I shall be corrected! :-)
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 7:18 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 7:18 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb
I thought that once one has reached the end of the path, 'you're off the ride', that is, not obsessing about enlightenment because there's nothing to be done anymore.
I thought that once one has reached the end of the path, 'you're off the ride', that is, not obsessing about enlightenment because there's nothing to be done anymore.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:58 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 8:58 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 3279 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
As Chi Nul said it, just because the Sun is shining brightly doesn't mean all the snow will melt at once.
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 9:59 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 9:59 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
In other words, arahatship may be defined as the end of seeking, but it's also a beginning of a totally new way of being. On the relative side of the street, features continue to manifest in accordance with conditions. The fact that the self-grasping and self-referencing has been utterly relaxed does not mean that nothing remains to be done in many other ways, most importantly in bringing what was revealed to bear on everything in one's sphere of resonance appearing as the body, the world, and everyone else. There's a potential for deepening now obviously accessible, also unlimited in scope. This vast potential may be intuited or even penetrated at various thresholds along the path. This makes the whole assessment business tricky.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:54 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 10:54 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 3279 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent PostsGozen M L, modified 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 11:09 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/27/09 11:09 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 0 Join Date: 5/12/09 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel,
You didn't say to whom you were replying. I assume it was Hokai. His last couple of points were:
@Hokai: There's a potential for deepening now obviously accessible, also unlimited in scope. This vast potential may be intuited or even penetrated at various thresholds along the path. This makes the whole assessment business tricky.
Gozen comments: Right on! So what's being said here is that even after Arhatship is attained -- that is, after one has "done what must be done" or "accomplished the most important thing" -- there is still more that one can explore and do. But even if nothing else is done EVER, the needful thing has been settled.
You didn't say to whom you were replying. I assume it was Hokai. His last couple of points were:
@Hokai: There's a potential for deepening now obviously accessible, also unlimited in scope. This vast potential may be intuited or even penetrated at various thresholds along the path. This makes the whole assessment business tricky.
Gozen comments: Right on! So what's being said here is that even after Arhatship is attained -- that is, after one has "done what must be done" or "accomplished the most important thing" -- there is still more that one can explore and do. But even if nothing else is done EVER, the needful thing has been settled.
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 4:46 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 4:46 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
Online friends have been sending me messages of congratulation - which is really kind - but, as I stated in my last post, I've been 'certain' before that I've landed it: and the certainty lasted one week...
I'm suffering *badly* from doubt at the moment, which goes away when I look inward or meditate and see that the new configuration of awareness is still in place, but then the doubt returns again, and then again... I can't help thinking that something is not right here, although each time I sit the centrelessness is so complete it seems yet again there's nothing to be done... Luckily I'm off on retreat next weekend and so will have the opportunity for a really good, long, hard look...
It's tempting to conclude, 'yeah, this must be it; or I must be as near as dammit so what does it matter', in order not to look like an idiot. ('The Boy Who Cried "Arahat"'?!) But if it does all fall apart, I shall certainly announce that it has. The value of forums like this one is in learning from shared experiences - not in making ourselves look good.
I'm suffering *badly* from doubt at the moment, which goes away when I look inward or meditate and see that the new configuration of awareness is still in place, but then the doubt returns again, and then again... I can't help thinking that something is not right here, although each time I sit the centrelessness is so complete it seems yet again there's nothing to be done... Luckily I'm off on retreat next weekend and so will have the opportunity for a really good, long, hard look...
It's tempting to conclude, 'yeah, this must be it; or I must be as near as dammit so what does it matter', in order not to look like an idiot. ('The Boy Who Cried "Arahat"'?!) But if it does all fall apart, I shall certainly announce that it has. The value of forums like this one is in learning from shared experiences - not in making ourselves look good.
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 5:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 5:27 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Thanks for that, Duncan, and I too congratulate but for another reason. I don't care so much if you "landed it", brother in mystery. If you haven't yet, you will. To me, what counts is that you remain an authentic and decent human being, and that you take that authenticity beyond any realization you might yet discover or confirm. We too often take that for granted.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 8:11 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/29/09 8:11 PM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 3279 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Yeah, it is nice to have a place to be wrong on occasion. That makes for healthy and sane relationships, as well as realistic ones. I spent about 5 years or so thinking I had done it, walking around for a few weeks thinking, "Wow, this has got to be it, so centerless, so natural, so clear, must be the thing, " and then a A&P would show up, the next Dark Night would kick my butt, and then I would complete what seemed to be a new cycle, think I had done it again, only to be wrong again. That happened maybe 25 times or so over those years. It was frustrating, but at least about half the time I felt pretty clear. Those who I was telling my impressions along the way, such as Brian Lewis, who is a member here, got pretty tired of it, but I was being as honest as I could be at the time. Thus, I can empathize with your sense of both success and doubt.
One interesting thing: doubt is cyclical, stage dependent, arises naturally like the weather, and is a sign of a functioning mind.
One interesting thing: doubt is cyclical, stage dependent, arises naturally like the weather, and is a sign of a functioning mind.
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 3/30/09 1:15 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/30/09 1:15 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
i cannot tell you how valuable having an arahant around to tell me how he sometimes doubts himself and his attainment on a pretty frequent basis was, when i first landed a path and just could not settle into it. hearing other people's assessments of themselves openly, and getting to know what these processes are like for others, does much to normalise the whole thing and makes for better and easier integration.
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 4/7/09 3:00 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 4/7/09 3:00 AM
RE: Assessing Each Other's Practice
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: yadidb
It is indeed very valuable, helpful and inspiring to have the opportunity to hear and discuss practice at such honesy with people who are sotapannas, sakadagamis, anagamis and arahats.
I have just returned from a 9-day retreat today and have benefitted greatly, much of which was because of inspiration I received here (A favourite quote from MCTB kept me going during some hard times, Bill Hamilton's "Whatever is here now is the door to the door to the door").
I will be writing up some of my experience and insights, some of them real insights, some about practical things I have learned the hard way this time from the teachers at the centre.
I would be very happy to hear your opinion on the matter (and mind ;).
It is indeed very valuable, helpful and inspiring to have the opportunity to hear and discuss practice at such honesy with people who are sotapannas, sakadagamis, anagamis and arahats.
I have just returned from a 9-day retreat today and have benefitted greatly, much of which was because of inspiration I received here (A favourite quote from MCTB kept me going during some hard times, Bill Hamilton's "Whatever is here now is the door to the door to the door").
I will be writing up some of my experience and insights, some of them real insights, some about practical things I have learned the hard way this time from the teachers at the centre.
I would be very happy to hear your opinion on the matter (and mind ;).