Author: yadidb
Forum: Practical Dharma

After having crossed the A&P (I assume) on my last retreat last August, which brought some very interesting new way of looking at the world, particularly human beings (After having gotten up from a two hour sitting, human beings in the hall around me appeared entirely different then they did before, and this lasted up until now, though I am not sure on how to describe it.) -

This brought about a very strong feeling and understanding that enlightenment is within reach and that all effort possible should be evoked within this lifetime. It also brought about a very strong 'happiness', which was actually very agitated, and brought a very strong dark period.
Anyway, It felt as if on this retreat, I had just started investigating the phenomena of whatever is here in these vibrations, and before I had no idea what was going on inside in a wise way.

Last week's retreat, was with one of the most senior teachers in the Goenka tradition here in the country, was deeper since it was for 'old students' only, and during the evening discourses Goenka reads and explains which parts of the Satipatthana Sutta his tradition focuses on to attain the path of stream entry.

I had practiced 3 and a half days of anapansati at the nostrils, and then began with body scanning.

During the first Vipassana sitting on the third day, I started to experience intense anger, frustration and very strong pains throughout the body.
The next sitting, and for the next 3 hours in which I sat, the whole body seemed to melt into very strong and fine vibrations, and it also felt as if the form of the body was much longer, upside down, side to side, etc.

This brought about a very strong excitement, 'happiness', confidence in my practice etc, though I knew there was much underlying attachment and much much ignorance regarding the experience and I anticipated what was to come.

Author: yadidb

Goenka calls this the experience 'bhanga', knowledge of dissolution, though he asserts that once one goes deeper into the practice, and in longer retreats, the dissolution is much deeper and brings about changes in perception such as seeing fast dissolution of vibrations in the faces of people, in hearing sounds, and so on, and that after this stage one should pierce into the body and 'open up' the rest of the body.

Whether this was crossing the A&P again or not, I dont know, but it certainly brought about much Dukkha.
During the rest of the retreat, I continued to sit going through all the vibrations of the body while understanding at times, and trying to see the 3 characteristics, though I began to see this in the mental phenomena which came up aswell such as thoughts, emotions and other subtle experiences.

I began to see and experience suffering which was prevailing every single second of 'my' existence, and I was trying to give into it and go deeper. There was no relief from suffering during this entire retreat, I realized this was exacly what I should be investigating.

Needless to say this was the hardest retreat i've ever done so far, and this had felt like I had been at the centre for a long, long time, though it was merely a week.

After we started speaking on the 8th day, I had some discussions with fellow practitioners , though such discussions are discouraged in these centres, and there is a rule on discussing 'other techniques' not to confuse people. Which I see as both useful for the benefit of those not so experienced, and also as very annoying dogma.

The teacher at the retreat let me know 'i was not ready' for longer retreats, that is, she would not approve of it, since I kept asking her 'advanced' questions, such as whether Goenka teaches Jhanas in longer retreats in which one dedicates 10 days or more to samatha.

Author: yadidb

One very interesting phenomena I experienced during this one, was that at times, while I was going into the vibrations, something changed, I 'gave up' scanning for a bit, and then I felt as if nothing was watching the vibrations, or that the feeling of the watcher was being shaken. This lasted for a second, or possibly less, and was something which happend rather than something I could bring about.
edit: i also take into consideration i might be delusional and that i imagined this to be happening because of previous intellectual knowledge, though i did feel something distincly different occuring at those times.

Anyway, much inspiration during this retreat was drawn from MCTB and the advanced practitioners on this forum who help me not get affected by the disempowering views which prevail at these retreats,
which I also came in contact with at the end of this one, such as that enlightenment is reserved for Burmese monks who started doing Jhanas at the age of 6 who can speak with devas, or that we must keep working for several lifetimes, and no one even dares strive to reach the goal during this very life time.

One person said that 7th and 8th Jhanas no longer prevail in the world, and that to practice Jhanas very strong previous life paramis are necessary.

Author: yadidb

On the here-and-now side of things, many relative benefits were achieved by this retreat, such as that when certain dukkha starts, and the aversion towards that dukkha also starts, which basically perpetuates it, it is seen clearly and stops, and then, though dukkha remains, I am able to observe it a bit more clearly and react less to it, and that decreases a certain aspect of that suffering.

Doubts creep in quite alot, though once attention is paid to them they are also seen as they are and vanish, dukkha remaining..

Equanimity in daily life certainly increased, though life's challenges are obviously still hard, such as the coming exams, courseworks, and being in a relationship - hopefully I'll do better at applying what I've learnt to the challenges ahead.

Due to the intensity of this retreat, which is fading slowly, sleep need is still very much low (4 hours in the past 24 hours)

I also thought i'd add that during that whole intensive body melting into vibrations experience, the mind was very agitated (in hind-sight, since that so-cool-happiness is so passing though just impossible not to cling to),seeking the cessation of everything, and the body seemed to fidgid and move involuntarily, though this might have been an internal experience only and not have occured if someone watched my body while i was sitting.

In regards to the teacher's comment about long courses - I really appreciate this lady, and she has answered my questions with much patience and direct replies which focus on here and now practice which is what she values most. She said that for longer retreats one must have complete confidence in the teacher and his method, since that provides a protective enviourment for the meditator - makes sense to me, though I'm not sure that will be possible with me and this tradition at this stage.

and now, I ask you, my fellow investigators, what the hell is going on?

Hey man.

Sounds like you are on the right track. While sitting with your practice, (if you aren't already) try to allow a gentle curiosity to establish itself. Imagine a young child inquisitively looking around at new sights and sounds. Gentle, curious, inquisitive, bold in a way that shrugs prior knowledge. Be that.

Two questions I would ask are: What is your short term goal and what is your long term goal?

Thanks for the excellent report, Yadidb. These detailed chronicles of progress really add to the body of knowledge here. Although it would be presumptuous of me to diagnose you without having watched this develop over time, I'll tell you how your report lines up with the maps, which I suspect will be no surprise to you.

"I started to experience intense anger, frustration and very strong pains throughout the body."

My comment: 3rd ñana (3 characteristics).

"The next sitting, and for the next 3 hours in which I sat, the whole body seemed to melt into very strong and fine vibrations, and it also felt as if the form of the body was much longer, upside down, side to side, etc. This brought about a very strong excitement, 'happiness', confidence in my practice etc, though I knew there was much underlying attachment and much much ignorance regarding the experience and I anticipated what was to come."

My comment: Classic description of 4th ñana (A&P). You had already attained it in August, but fell below it between retreats and had to reattain it. This is very common.

Bhanga ñana technically refers to 5th ñana (knowledge of dissolution), but Mr. Goenka uses it in a more global sense, to describe the entire spectrum of vibratory states.

I expect that others will have some interesting things to say about your experience. And I hope you'll keep posting your progress in this thread so we can all get a window into your world.

Kenneth

Author: yadidb

Thank you Kenneth, you have just confirmed what I believe I already knew.

I also feel this thread is basically also more than anything, a conversation with myself.

Obsession with progress, craving for nibbana or cessation, strong ego which is seen but still manifests itselfs during discussions with people, wanting others to see my progress, I finished the retreat at 6am yesterday but could not sleep since, which is quite intense as the body is very agitated, but the ability to 'dwell into suffering and impermanence' helps me not go nuts.

I spoke wayyy too much about this with people after the retreat, which i now realize should be highly avoided (that is, with people who cannot help you, but whom you want to share the experience with, or show off to)

Now, I must add that I am a very sensitive person, that is, every retreat I have ever done (3 * 10 days, 3 * 3 days and the one ending yesterday) has been mind blowing and felt like being born again, and every new one seems like this.

The thing which perpetuated this whole 'no-sleep business' is that during the retreat I could feel something wrong with my girlfriend, though that is also probably because we had a rough period the past month, i spoke to her after the retreat on the phone and felt she is lying to me, I could see through all she was saying, and told her that (without anger or something ,just like, "what is going on with you? there is something you are hiding), this made her go into it even more. anyway, I became sure something really bad is up, which at first sparked the whole body to vibrate in a very intense and unpleasant way, ->

Author: yadidb

lots of anger fear and so on, intense dukkha, but this was felt in a different way than in the past, it was felt mainly through the body, the aversion was more towards those sensations.

This was obviously me projecting a ton of stuff onto a situation I had no information about, and this matches up with Daniel's descriptions of the Dark Night, well done Daniel! you've saved me

I now realize Goenka's terms of long retreats are definately to protect meditators from dangerous destabilization they cannot get out of, not using drugs or alcohol, being in a commited relationship for while, and if not, being celibate, and reaching the stage of being totally commited to one practice and having confidence in the teacher (something which is now completely established in the past 24 hours, though doubts obviously will always creep in) - obviously all these are not mandatory, but they can protect me in a way which will make this easier.

Now - that said - I do not think it will be wise for me to sit long retreats at this stage, since I am wayyy to sensitive, and that is, I can probably get the same advantage out of shorter retreats and that will help the integration which comes at the end of them be less intense.

in regards to what helps me - my father who died 5 years ago (in was in the same days of now, april something 2004) - who has been an extraordinary seeker and amazing person who is probably also bound to reach high stages, since he is a major part of the dependent chain which is responsible for this whole thing happening to me - is helping me
Whether he is really a celestial being (I hope for him!! or not, whenever I think of him, and concentrate on that,

Author: yadidb

I start wishing him well, wishing that he becomes liberated from suffering, that he shares my peace, this makes the whole body vibrate (very intensly, as if the vibrations are leaving my body) in very pleasant sensations and very good mental phenomena, which although is also transient and clingable dukkha (I see that while doing it, perhaps experientially, or perhaps intellectually) , it helps me become happier and more peaceful. his death has become my power rather than my weakness, and it has become a lesson for me because of death which evokes my efforts, and also the Metta which can be arisen so easily at times of deep practice is very, very helpful.

This is it for now.. I will try to rest though still no tiredness is felt but I am sure after this will come something else which is basically what the whole thing is about, I expect the worst.
I think channeling all the energy which was previously being used to read about dharma, and talk about dharma, into actual investigation right now, right here. (this helped me clarify what I need to clarify - but should now be MUCH less)

Author: yadidb

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Author: yadidb

Yaba,
Thank you for your post.
The inquisitiveness is what brought this! I stopped doing the practice mechanically and started 'trying' things, going this way, going that way, asking myself 'hmm.. what is going on here' - this brought about the experience I described before, which seemed to happen sort of by my efforts and sort of by my efforts to no efforts, of just feeling and not being, though as I said I am not sure what that was (In the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha says: 'Until there is mere awareness , and mere understanding' - I suspect my attempt to investigate this phrase has something to do with it, though it is probably not what the Buddha meant, I believe he meant an experience like this but which is longer lasting and clearer)

In regards to your question of goals: when I asked the compassionate lady at this retreat, who has been the direct student of Goenkaji, about attainments and so on, why they are not discussed, she said 'After all, we are not here to get any attainment, our goal is to get liberated'.
I replied 'which is an attainment in itself!' - how wrong I was. Her phrase was not understood by me until now while I was lying in bed - even the Arahat is not completely liberated until his parinibbana. all the sankharas are then gone! the body and the mind are those aswell, I think thats why the Buddha says in the Satipatthana Sutta something like:
"Let alone seven days. Should any person practise this fourfold establishing of awareness in this manner for seven days, one of two results may be expected in him: in this very life highest wisdom or, *if a substratum of aggregates remains*, the stage of non-returner."

not that I think I understand this phrase completely, as obviously this phrase implies that only the non-returner has a substratum of the aggregates, and that the arahat does not. but it helps me understand liberation=parinibbana.

Author: yadidb

so in regards to your question, my goal is this. I want to finish the thing, and that will always be the final goal, whatever will be in between I will keep investigating. and by finish the thing I dont mean Arahatship (though I have subtle hopes - or delusions - that a stage in this very life can be reached with less suffering, how silly. mind and body are suffering) I mean - the end of all suffering, which can only be reached by going deep deep deep into the suffering of now.

Now - I find that the best thing to keep in mind now for me, is that whatever stage I got, I should keep being aware of delusions, happiness of progress, suffering of every goddamn moment, and so on. Satisfaction in the unsatisfactory is a hindrance.

In regards to practical practice - I find that although Goenkaji is right in saying that bodily sensations are the base and should never be ignored (vedananupassana and kayanupassana), ever since I started including everything in this phenomena (or this started being included whether I wanted it to be or not), I suspect what the Buddha meant in "fourfold establising of awareness" is that I should try to be aware of the whole fourfold thing at once, not ignoring anything, which causes ignorance.

Short term goal, to be here every now moment, stop flowing with the flow of ignorant thoughts, though some of them are quite wise! but can also be used to increase the ability to see anicca, dukkha and anatta, and are, obviously, still delusions at this stage, but wiser somehow in a relative sense.

And a great way I found to try stop seeing satisfaction in the unsatisfactory is whenever satisfaction arises and is noticed (with how fast my progress is, and so on, how others I meet in retreats cannot possibly understand how possble enlightenment is because of their experience - and other very silly delusions like this) , I should try to understand Dukkha in all this, and that is the whole thing.

Author: yadidb

If I could point to one major improvement which is above all after this retreat, it is that association with mental phenomena is less, that is, I can see anicca,dukkha, anatta more clearly in them.

Whenever a thought which accompanies an unpleasant feeling on the mind (and the body is also felt at this time, though I cannot feel the direct link between them yet, and do not try to) , that is noticed, it is also 'noted' verbally, very fast and to the point (like, ahh, this is anger!) , as with the noting technique, but I never intended on doing this, this started happening naturally with me from the beginning.

So the delusions of satisfaction with the unsatisfactory (which occur so many now because of the recent progress) is easily identifeable, and this seems the be the only way to get rid of them. go into them.

the intensity of the experience is definately slowing down, and although certain changes in view are apparent, I am much more calm and peaceful, which is good, this was one of the most intense things i ever experienced.

Having re-read Daniel's chapters on the Dark night (very helpful) - I feel as if I might have passed through several of them very fast, and it was very intense.. but I feel better now.

Author: yadidb

Wow... yesterday seems like a whole different person!
Things have really calmed down and all that's left is a calmer me.. Where I am on the maps now? I have no idea.

Yo.

So your long term path is "the path that is beyond paths," which is what some would call arhatship? I'm not sure I follow. It does not matter though, as long as you have a clear long term goal that is attainable and motivates you.

As for the short term goal-- I think staying mindful as you have indicated is great. Perhaps try settings goals in regard to figuring out certain things you may not yet understand. Or perhaps make a goal a short term goal for the next stage in the cycle of insight. These goals are invaluable in pushing our practice & rewarding our hard work.

One thing I would mention is to be careful of making problems out of things which are not fundamentally problematic. Your thoughts, for example, are likely not to be problematic at all. Proverbially lashing yourself for anything that occurs in the mental realm is not necessary. Stay with what is happening and gently guide what you would like to occur (toward your goals), that is enough.

Lastly, re-read the chapter on equanimity. I have no idea that you are there, but you may know if you read about it. Can't hurt anyway, because you'll be there one day, even if it isn't today.

Trent

Author: yadidb

Hey Trent,

I went through an extremely strange experience yesterday which I would interpret as some of the dukkha ñanas.. Right now? I dont know, and I am beginning to realize that for now thinking about progress is irrelavant to me at this stage.

My mental state is now very good and calm and functioning in the world has become much easier than before this whole ordeal. I am alot less reactive and much more calm and focused, much more loving towards my family and friends, and that is one of the most important things I believe.

Anyway, in regards to goals, I obviously am aiming for an understanding and direct experience of that which is beyond mind and matter, nibbana. But.. what I find in my practice now, is that a lot of the time suffering is being perpetuated instead of being observed by 'looking for something else other than what is here now'... so I am observing that ("What you seek is in the sensations of seeking" - I like that.)

Besides that, Today I realized that my ultimate and final goal is to use everything for the good of everyone who comes in contact with me in any way possible, and help as many people as I can come out of suffering, so by practicing step by step to liberation, I will be increasing my capacity to help others. I wish to increase this volition in my practice, that is, I am working for the liberation of myself for my good, and for the good of others.

Have a good one and thanks for your comments!