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What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry

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What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry?

To answer the question you need to define "serious effort" and "stream-entry".

I'll give the definitions I am interested in but if you want to answer the question with different definitions that is okay.

For a definition of stream-entry I will use what Henry wrote:


https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8713569#_19_message_8739472

A stream enterer cannot be hurt just by words from others, bcause he can lose his identity anytime he want.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8713569#_19_message_8765680

I mean you can drop any identitiy anytime, see you have to hold identities when you talk to people, connect with people, but when nobody around, you’re just a gentle whisper of wind blowing in summer breeze.

And what Noah wrote:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8713569#_19_message_8790807

No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours
No doubt = complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in life



For "serious effort" I will suggest two definitions that I am interested in.
  1. Theravada monks and nuns.
  2. Laypeople who go on retreats of one week or longer at least once a  year.

I don't know what the right definitions are I just provide these because they represent my interests. If you want to answer the question with different definitions of stream-entry or "serious effort" please feel free to do so.

Another way to address the same issue is to answer, "At what levels of practice will you have a 50% or 90% chance of attaining stream entry?" If anyone wants to answer that I would also be interested.

Thanks in advance...

RE: What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry
Answer
7/16/18 11:05 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I don't know if quantifying these things leads to any relief from "occurance"...

...one thing that the wise have tried to impart to me is the value of questioning the sensations that lead to the tendancy to "solidify" such definitions and found them to be Empty.

The "serious effort" that leads to Sotapanna, may lie therein...?

All my Goodwill.

Addendum:  For this case, such attempts at quantification are the enumeration of suffering/dukkha itself.

RE: What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry
Answer
7/16/18 3:46 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8713569?_19_delta=20&_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_cur=3#_19_message_8819619

Noah D:
Henry wijaya:
Noah D:
No Self view = complete perceptual nonduality in waking hours 
No doubt = complete confidence that one can operate skillfully in any situation
No attachment to rules = complete fluidity & adaptability of behavior & attitude to be happy in  life 



...

...  When I mention this echelon of conditioning/repatterning, I'm referencing something that would be quite rare - hard to acheive for layfolk & maybe a fraction of a percent of dedicated practitioners attaining.

RE: What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry
Answer
7/16/18 10:46 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
There are other definitions of SE that are completely valid:

1- completion of 1 cycle of insight 

2- “Fetter lite” 
——a peripheral intuitive sense that the self is an illusion , which can be accessed whenever one turns to it 
——confidence that the dharma will eventually work to transform ones suffering 
——-recognition that the dharma is about actual practice , rather than magical rituals 

i personally know a lot of people (20 +) who have attained these types 

RE: What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry
Answer
7/17/18 1:14 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Maybe I will use this thread to collect definitions of enlightenment. Here is another:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7146949?_19_delta=20&_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_cur=3#_19_message_8831413
Phyo Arkar:
Cessation is bodily experience of non_self 
it have to be explained in whole sutta but only  bodily experience of it will tell you clearly what it is. i will try to explain my best as i experienced but you have to experience it directly. 

as human we have
 hear touch sight smell taste mind
we consider that combination as self
we cling to it as self we desire to pursue better taste, better sight, better smell, etc
and we thought it was pleasure.But then if we can't get those, we suffer. those cant be last, those cant be satisfying, they are not always under our control. 

the answer is total ceasing of those
the moment before ceasing :
i will tell you my experience of longest ceasing 
first: hearing doesn't make sense anymore 
then breathing disappears
and then only mind left
after noting the last remaining mind
its like fallen into a  black hole
its like a total void in time and space
then when i am back  i know something happened, but dunno what it is
when i tried to think back what happened, i cease to exist for a moment. 
then after a few noting  alarm rang, 1hr is up. 
all i remember is i sited for 10 mins but already 1 hour is up. and then i realized i was ceased to exist for 50 minutes. 
it waa so liberating and peaceful that there is no I for 50 minutes.

it is glimpse of nibanna, total liberation from 5 senses doors, desire, ego, self. i feel like a new person fill with joy and peace 

RE: What percentage of people who make a serious effort attain stream-entry
Answer
7/18/18 2:25 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Hi Jim,

I'm happy with the descriptions that you wrote for definition of SE. In other words, inspired by my own experience, it is when you stop holding onto stuff tightly and gain a lot of fluidity, ease and effortlessness in your whole being and interactions with other people, events etc.

For serious effort I'd like to point out that you can be a monk or a nun out of habit. Just living in a monastery sitting and fidgeting about, not really getting the gist of meditation. The same can happen to lay people as well and on retreat as I've been informed by this forum and the book of Daniel Ingram. So I'd like to define serious practise as practise where the meditator is really genuine and sincere about the actual effort they put in their meditative work. This also includes checking your possible errors and crossreferencing all the time. Peers and teachers can help with this. And I'm not convinced that everyone will be able to pull this off, as there is quite a strong tendency to be fooled by your own mind games. But I do know that some people can pull this off. And if you look into your mind with this "pure intention" and avoid fooling yourself, even if doing so you loose the illusion of "being a good person", "being really good buddhist", "having only good motivations", "truly helping others" and end up feeling hurt, there is the chance of gaining actual insight and progressing.

For that sort of serious effort, I'd be willing to say that SE is guaranteed. But the problem is then only transferred one notch. For how will you know you are doing it correctly and not slacking about? I think this is still a more positive way of looking at it, because you can in some sense control more readily how honest you are with your self.