A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/2/09 12:40 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? John Finley 4/2/09 1:33 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Trent S. H. 4/2/09 1:48 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Jackson Wilshire 4/2/09 5:22 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Chuck Kasmire 4/2/09 5:49 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Jackson Wilshire 4/2/09 5:54 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? C4 Chaos 4/2/09 7:16 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Chuck Kasmire 4/2/09 8:30 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Chuck Kasmire 4/2/09 8:40 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? John Finley 4/2/09 9:03 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/2/09 9:07 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? C4 Chaos 4/2/09 9:34 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? C4 Chaos 4/2/09 9:41 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/2/09 10:14 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Trent S. H. 4/2/09 12:42 PM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/2/09 10:34 PM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Trent S. H. 4/3/09 2:19 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Jackson Wilshire 4/3/09 4:03 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Gozen M L 4/3/09 10:40 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/6/09 3:25 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/6/09 3:27 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Vincent Horn 4/6/09 5:58 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 4/7/09 3:21 AM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 5/11/09 3:41 PM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Wet Paint 5/11/09 5:46 PM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Ed clay vannoy 5/11/09 9:43 PM
RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment? Ed clay vannoy 5/11/09 9:59 PM
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 12:40 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 12:40 AM

A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: thittato
Forum: Maps of Meditation

So part of the shared framework on this forum seems to be that A&P activates a desire for enlightenment that people that have never experienced A&P simply don't have nor are going to have unless they cross the A&P. And seemingly many people here have had experinces of A&P spontanously without meditative training, which send them on a spiritual quest hard to abandon whether they wanted it or not. So I'm just really currious about what you think it is about the A&P that gives it this quality? What is it about A&P that activates this desire? Why is one suddenly commited to the point of no return? Why does one suddenly have such a strong interest in awakening? And why is this interest of a nature that people who haven't experienced A&P rarly or never experience?

I find this phenomena really interesting, and will appreciate any thoughts about it... :-)
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John Finley, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:33 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:33 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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I could be way off on this, but to me it seems as if crossing the A&P throws a "switch" that has a physiological component to it. The A&P event apparently sends a strong signal that there is more going on than is obvious at the gross level and there are answers to be had if one looks. We (humans) seem to be hard wired and programed to inquire into our true nature. It appears that some are more sensitive to this "draw" than others; I think some latch on to various spiritual/religious beliefs and zealously hold them, refusing to question their beliefs or investigate the truth of their beliefs because they don't have the energy, confidence, patience or the education and skills required to undertake this search.
In other cases, people ignore spirituality altogether, substituting the acquisition of power, wealth, etc. to fill the void in their lives - and this essentially becomes their "spiritual" practice.

In my personal experience I don't recall a distinct incidence of crossing the A&P, but I feel certain that I must have done so at some point in my life. It feels like I've been on this quest for a long, long time.
Trent S H, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:48 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 1:48 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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I can only speak to my experience, but crossing the a&p really showed me that there was actually an experiential, concrete, "holy shit truthiness" to all the dharma I had been studying/working with. The few stages before seemed like a hint enough to keep looking into everything, but I could also just write those off as "psychological stuff." After the A&P, there was no more denial and I was able to throw the brunt of my life behind finding out more. Skepticism and denial was slapped in the face with "credibility."
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:22 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:22 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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I think that there are both physiological and cognitive shifts that occur when one crosses the A&P. The cognitive aspect is probably more noticeable for those who vividly remember the experience. Any memorable spiritual experience is likely to give rise to thoughts like "there's something else going on here." This, in and of itself, is probably enough to further pursue spiritual/mystical/contemplative practices.

But then there are the cases when an individual never really remembers crossing the A&P, but still has the same drive toward practice and realization. This makes one wonder what actually gets "switched on" after the experience. There are physiological correlates to phenomenological occurrence, spiritual or otherwise, so it isn't unreasonable to assume the process happens in the body. Whatever process continues after the event is difficult to pin down, but the process is experienced even if the initiating event is forgotten or ignored.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:49 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:49 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Just a provocative thought but what if it is a cognitive shift that brings about the A&P? The A&P being a common but not necessary symptom? I don't have the answer but it seems worth asking.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:54 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 5:54 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Interesting question, CheleK. It would seem to me that the cognitive and physiological changes are mutually supportive and arise together. What causes them to move in that direction? Dare I suggest the Tao? Who knows? Whatever the case, I think that mindfulness is the catalyst for the whole thing, which I failed to mention in my earlier post.
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C4 Chaos, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 7:16 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 7:16 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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in my case i don't remember a "holy shit!" moment in the waking state. most of my mind-blowing experiences happened in a lucid dream. however, based on the description of people in this forum, i think i may have had instances that would quality as A&P. what brought about them? i don't know. i don't even know the term A&P before i started digging into the Theravada progressive stage model. so any recognition of my A&P experience is a retro-cognition.

this is an interesting discussion in that it also hints at another one of those perennial questions of "free will" vs "determinism". if we take this discussion further we can ask: is it intention/desire (e.g. free will) to cross the A&P or is it just the way things are (e.g. The Tao) that eventually wakes up people?

between the free will and determinism spectrum, based on accounts of awakened people, most (if not all) of them imply that we really don't have any control of anything. that's why *surrendering* to what is is the key to awakening. awakening is the ultimate act of surrender.

it's still paradoxical to me since the small "me" is still the locus of this bodymind's attention. that's why i like the Christian concept of Grace and the idea of "enlightenment by serendipity."

my two cents.

~C
Chuck Kasmire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 8:30 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 8:30 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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What about Sid? Doesn't he speak of the 8-fold path? Right View, Intention, Effort, Action, etc.?
Chuck Kasmire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 8:40 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 8:40 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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How does cognition relate to mindfulness? BTW, just in case anyone thinks I am asking these questions because I have some great penetrating insight to present – sorry, not the case. These are some issues I have been reflecting on lately and thought I might get some parallel processing going here.

"cognitive and physiological changes are mutually supportive and arise together" - interesting idea.
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John Finley, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:03 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:03 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Very interesting! I'd be willing to bet that if one began to study (by that I mean scientifically measuring brain activity, the creation of new nodes, etc.)people who are just starting out in a contemplative discipline, and followed their progress all the way to completion of 4th Path (or its equivalent) that there would be significant correlation between those activities and the subject's level of of attainment (or non-attainment).
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:07 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:07 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: msj123

I wonder what people here mean by cognitive shift. Personally, I went through two cognitive shifts, one toward the beginning and one recently.

The first was discovering my inner territory, and becoming accustomed to it. The key moment was when I was working with Fourth Way ideas and I read In Search of the Miraculous. Gurdjieff was talking about inner thoughts and being completely powerless to control them. I took a look and BAM: there was this whole fluctuating inner world I had generally ignored. From then on, I began to see the inner mechanisms of body, emotions, and thought and I was able to seem them as objects.

The second shift was more recently following a lot of A&P experiences. It now seems easier to track multiple sensations at one time. It harder to hold during shamatha on but easier to let go when noting. My range of focus is a bit wider in range and scope. It is easier to do insight practices with less effort. It is more difficult to hold a single focal point--- everyone has been telling me to be more gentle and this fits well.

How do others report cognitive shifts?

Matt
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C4 Chaos, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:34 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:34 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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yes, that's why i said *most*. Sid was probably the geekiest of them all emoticon he was the *scientific* uber-rational type (e.g. methodological, divide and conquer, repeatable, stages, etc.). that's why i ride with his model and teachings.

~C
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C4 Chaos, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:41 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 9:41 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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this is one of the fundamental tenets of integral theory/philosophy. cognition (i.e. subjective) and physiological (i.e. objective) arise simultaneously. one cannot be reduced in the expense of another. otherwise, it's going to be a flatland view.

for a much geekier explanation of this see Wilber's classic essay: "An Integral Theory of Consciousness" - http://www.imprint.co.uk/Wilber.htm

to take it even further, in Wilber's 4 Quadrant model, the term is "tetra-meshing". personally, i find it very useful as a meta-perspective on everything (on the relative aspect of reality).

~C
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 10:14 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 10:14 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: marinr

Yes, that was my experience. It's like several shifts 'combine' and then the effect is that energy and imagination are now 'visible'.

It's also interesting that the exit from one of the cessations has been like being on the 'other side' of the A&P event. If that makes any sense.

p.s. I might still be confusing points on the map.
Trent S H, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 12:42 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 12:42 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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I think that whether we have free will or are pre-determined is based on perspective. From one point of view, everything is causal, and it all started before this human did in any form. All as God. From another point of view, there is a longstanding socio-linguistic categorization of certain functions of this mammal which suggest that "I" am an autonomous sentient being acting in a world. Neither is right or wrong.

Furthermore, it is as though we are pre-determined if we look into the past, but have free will if we look into the infinite expanse of the future. The most functional, compassionate route in the situation seems to be the middle ground (as our friend Sid suggests for many similar dualities), which one could correlate with being in "the present" as a self which has transcended yet included the relative.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 10:34 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/2/09 10:34 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: IanThreadgill

Hello all, (first post, be gentle with me!)
I've been wrestling with this one lately. especially after reading "Perfect Brilliant Stillness" (anyone?).

I'm tentatively at the conclusion that awakened people say we can't do anything to awaken largely on the grounds that, from their perspective, we as individuals don't exist. Things, however, can still need to be done, which can mean that while we think we exist, we should carry on thinking we're doing those things. At the very least we can be engaged in not making ourselves daily more unavailable to grace, as it were,

And this raises another question which has been bugging me. A lot of passing of thresholds, significant experiences, etc among you guys seem, according to those reports I've read, to, largely, just happen. Obviously the harder you work the luckier you get, so to speak, but is it generally accepted that practices are preparation and then things "happen", or does practice ever actually "make" something happen? Or is that a meaningless distinction by that stage?

Thanks for any input,
Ian
Trent S H, modified 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 2:19 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 2:19 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Hi Ian,

In a similar way as my post directly above yours, both of those can be said to be true. It depends on what point of view is being spoken from. So from one point of view, enlightenment is completely unconditioned-- everything is always just God. From the other, it's absolutely conditioned and to say otherwise would ignore just as many important details as saying "all is only God."
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 4:03 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 4:03 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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I like what you have to say here.

For me, the problem with determinism is that it can be used as an excuse, and I don't like excuses. Humans make decisions, and can (and should) be held accountable for them.

That said, to say that there's no determinism at all, and that everything is a free choice is deluded as well. To deny the causal relationships of any given act is to not see the whole truth.

May I suggest that perhaps the boundary between determinism and free will isn't as abstract and complete as we'd like it to be. I think a more accurate description of our experiences (actions, intentions, even 'waking up') is likely to reside right on the boundary, where the two meet.
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Gozen M L, modified 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 10:40 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/3/09 10:40 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Hi Ian,
We as individuals do exist because we as bodies exist. As bodies, we practice various disciplines which increase our odds for Awakening. Strictly speaking, nothing we "do" is causative of Enlightenment, because the Unconditioned cannot "appear" as a result of conditional action. But that way of looking at the situation can be highly misleading. A better perspective is the "practical" one of simply doing the practices that have been developed over millennia. Find a teacher who "knows the territory" to help you develop good practice habits. Then JUST DO IT!
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 3:25 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 3:25 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: martha.a

This is my first time posting on this board. I've been popping in and reading posts for some time now, and have been impressed with honesty and sincerity that everyone brings. I'm happy to join your team on this thread.
It was actually the subject of the A&P that drew me to Daniel Ingram's work a few years ago. I heard him giving a radio interview where he described the A&P then following Dark Night phase. A light bulb went off and I thought, "that’s it!" I went through a very strong process when I was 20 that completely rocked me world, and subsequently knocked me on to the awakening path, or "activated my desire for enlightenment." I experienced something that I can only describe as a very strong transformation. Basically experiencing the shift of awareness from the constricted self to unbound awareness and connection with all things. I don't really know how to explain it, but it was like the shift was inevitable I just had to get out of the way, possibly a very quick moment of letting go. It was Beautiful to say the least. Maybe the shift was like the becoming the beauty that is everything. The after glow lasted maybe a few of months, presence in life, the joy of being, and new eyes to everything. I naively thought I had “Gotten there” and this new state was permenate. Then the Dark Night phase came, and all I can say is that the next six months were incredibly painful. I did not have a meditation practice, and had not read or studied the Dharma. So of course I held tightly to my good experiences and just did not know how to handle to emotional and mental territory that was arising. If I knew then what I know now… Okay just wanted to share. I haven't really written about this before and thought this would be an open place to do so. Any feedback, I’m open to comments. Do you think this was an A&P experience?
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 3:27 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 3:27 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: martha.a

I also wanted to leave a small note to Ian. A teacher at IMS said this quote and I thought I'd pass it on. "If enlightenment is an accident, meditation makes us accident prone." Take from it what you want, I'll leave it at that.
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Vincent Horn, modified 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 5:58 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/6/09 5:58 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 211 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hi Martha,

Welcome! I'm guessing the radio interview you mentioned was via Buddhist Geeks. I'm so glad people are finding this community via Buddhist Geeks. emoticon

Anyway, as to your question about whether or not what you are describing was an A&P experience, from the way you described it, it sounds quite likely. I'd be interested in hearing what has been happening since that period. Sounds like you found your way to more formal dharma practice. Are you doing primarily insight meditation? How is the practice going now?

Again, great to have you here.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 4/7/09 3:21 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/7/09 3:21 AM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: martha.a

Thanks Vjhorn for the friendly hello. And yes I believe it was on Buddhist Geeks that I heard Daniel Ingram. Thank for the reply to my posting. After reading it over I am surprised I left such a detailed post about my process. I don't normally bring these kinds of experiences out into the open so readily. I normally have a little better discretion. But the community seems open, and I felt so in return. That experience was in 2001, and in 2004 I came into formal insight practice in Thailand. I then continued practicing with Insight Meditation Society teachers when I got back the states. I've taken about a 1 retreat a year, ranging from 7 - 6 weeks. Most recently my practice has been influenced my Sayadaw U Tejaniya and his relaxed approach, in combination of a focus on body sensations. I’ve also noticed that I’ve been gradually moving away from any specific technique and resting in open awareness. And if calming or centering is needed I will practice simple shamata, mindfulness of breath at the nostrils. My practice has been going well, but the daily sits have been lagging a little. But historically for me this is not new.
So that is my basic practice currently. And you asked what has happened since the period I posted about. That is a little hard to formulate…but I guess you could say that meditation and an understanding of the Dharma happened. I found that meditation kind of bridged the gap with what I had experienced in my life and what the practice was offering. Everything seemed to come together. Also the practice of equanimity itself was revolutionary in my life. Does that answer your question? And on a final point, I am afraid I disrupted a nice thread that was happening with my first post. So by all means keep the ball rolling! Maybe I should have started my own thread with these questions? Oh the newbie syndrome.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 3:41 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 3:41 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: FaustusSolis

Thank you martha.a for your comments. I'm brand new here as well, also a long-time B-Geek fan; I heard Daniel Ingram there and read his book which I greatly appreciated as well. Your openness and comments on this thread strike me as being just fine, I hope that's OK to say. I found your comments helpful.
I had a rather ground-shifting event take place in connection with meditation practice, and after hearing a bit of Daniel's communication, I'm wondering if it was an A&P event.
I'm not sure if I should try to post a description here, or if that is appropriate. I'll try and read some more of what other people are saying. I'm new so I don't want to barge in with comments that are misplaced or inappropriate.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 5:46 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 5:46 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: martha.a

Hey thanks for the post. Regarding looking into your experience and if posting on this board about it, I'm not sure exactly what would be the best way. If you can learn from my mistake, I would try to start a new post instead of putting it in the middle of an already active one. From the looks of it, it can throw things off. Also, I would recommend maybe sending a message to one of the more established practitioners on here, maybe one of the admin posters. But given I have only posted a few times, I am probably not the best to give advise.
But with all of that said, what I appreciate about this online community is the honest openness everyone brings to their practice and a sincere wanting to see the path clearly and to learn in the process.
I have also noticed that the most effective posts are not too emotional in nature. Being it is simply easier to understand the content of the post when it is given clearly…and not too floaty like mine. Not only is it good for the poster to be able to relate their experiences without being hooked by them, it is also easier for the reader to understand. Not saying emotional aspect isn't important. I believe it just brings more clarity when one can clearly post what is going on. Okay, from my very limited experience I hope that helps!
Ed clay vannoy, modified 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 9:43 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 9:43 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi All,

I haven't read to the end yet.

My Crossing of the A&P was a Christian Born Again style of thing. Read my profile if you are interested in more detail. It is pretty long.

There were two main cognitive shifts. One: I had a realization that went like this, "One must know God to live a truly joyous life." Read, The Ultimate Ground of Being, or The Tao, or Buddha Mind for God if you like.

The second was saying the sinner's prayer some weeks or months later. Read that as a willingness to go for it hammer and tongs, nothing held back.

Wham! The A&P!

At the time I was just two or three weeks away from Appendicitis. This is not such a big deal with modern medicine, but for most of human history it was probably a death sentence. This means that I was just about to die as far as my body was concerned. I have always thought that was a trigger for this experience.

Ed
Ed clay vannoy, modified 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 9:59 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 5/11/09 9:59 PM

RE: A&P activated desire for enlightenment?

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Hi Martha,

:-) I thought so too! My A&P crossing was very intense. Then one morning I woke up in bed and the lights had been turned way down. The afterglow was still more energy than I had previously ever experienced, but nothing like the previous couple of weeks had been.

The Dark Night was still some months in coming. Luckily, I had St. John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul to give me some guidance.

Ed

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