Author: shokolah
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

After reading the first 20 pages of Daniel's book, I realised how unfocused my practice had become. I've been attending an insight meditation group for nearly 12 months now and feels that I have been going wrong with my practice, have I or is it restlessness? We are being told not to judge our practice but surely we should recognise when concentration is not appropriately applied in order that we can increase our presence of mind the next time round. Our teacher is a great orator and has written several compelling books. When he talks about the Dharma, it really comes alive and it is quite a moving experience. Everyone in the group is in awe of him which makes things very difficult to bounce things around. Daniel's advices are very technical and they have helped me improve my concentration quite rapidly. Before it was just a question of bringing awareness to the navel area, stay there and then gradually expand it. What also worries me is that no one apart from our teacher, has had a stream entry, some have meditated for years with him! I asked a fellow meditator if he had had such experience. He laughed at me, saying that it was a very rare occurrence. I didn't realise that this could be so funny. See below his words. Thank you for your help as I am very lost!

"Hi Fabien
It may be 'easy' for a one in a million or 10's of millions because of their past karma. For the rest of us it requires real commitment and years of practice with a teacher, and even then there are no guarantees - it is so subtle and we are so caught up! David's first book goes into all of this in great detail - it's very good. I would be very wary of taking claims like what that guy has said in that quote seriously! (relating to stream entry) There is a lot of misunderstanding out there. Any 'experience' in meditation can easily be mis-interpreted."

Hi Fabien,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground.

Good question. I was put off when first reading Daniel Ingram's essays and book. Talking about actual progress in meditation, as opposed to worshipping ideals, is such a huge taboo in Buddhism. After some time, I realized that I had two options if i wanted to find out for myself rather than just believe Daniel's claims or someone else's:

Prove those guys wrong who claimed that progress was rare or impossible, or
disprove Daniel Ingram's claim that progress was to be expected for those who practice well.

I decided that it was more empowering to assume progress was to be expected I also saw that this was in line with the Buddha's teaching. And after practicing for some weeks, I noticed how astonishingly precise the "maps" were; and those aren't Daniel's inventions either.

So, don't get stuck deciding whose opinion to adopt for your own: do it, see for yourself, discuss it here. Misinterpretations of meditation experiences are only serious when not talked about. Comparing results quickly puts things in perspective, at least for me.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: shokolah

Many thanks Florian for your great advice. It is effectively solving this problem. I feel my fellow meditators are following blindly into anything our teacher says. His wisdom is very profound but in terms of practice, I am not going anywhere. I am not saying that his advice are bad but somehow I feel the awareness should be sharper and mine had become dull, wasn't cutting anything at all. I have been told that I have to tame the restlessness. Sure, give me the right tools. Hopefully Daniel's book will become my bible. Thank you Florian, you are amazing. Did you know that you name was French by the way? Cheers!

Hi Fabien,

It sounds like you are getting some value from combining the technical with the more poetic and inspirational. From my experience that is a very powerful combination!

W/r/t to your points above, and your friends quotes, I would say that it would be important to see what he means by "easy" or by "rare." From the dozens of people I know who've gotten stream-entry (and higher paths all the way up to arhantship) the amount of time neeeded varied. But of those people I know who have really dedicated themselves, all of them have achieved stream-entry. In that sense, it isn't rare at all for those willing to do the work. It's almost inevitable. In terms of time, I've seen people get stream-entry on less than a month of retreat practice and a few years of practice. I've also known people, for whom it has take many years and many, many months of retreat practice.

(cont below)

Other people in this community have done it w/o any retreat practice. In my own case, with very good maps, good instruction & teachers, and great places to practice (read: optimal conditions) it took me about 4 years. During that 4 years I sat an average of an hour a day (though I would sit as much as 2 hrs / day for some periods) and did a total of 4 months of intensive retreat practice.

All that said, I would agree with your friends point that "experience" in meditation can often be mis-interpreted as nibbana. Daniel has an entire section of his book called, "Was that Emptiness?" that explores the various ways that people can fool themselves into thinking they're enlightened. The most common culprits are the A&P event and the formless jhanas. That said, with good maps, appropriate peer-review (Daniel grilled me for sometime before he seemed to acknowledge that I'd gotten stream-entry, though I didn't really care all that much because I knew), and sincerity (above all else) it is absolutely possible to assess one's practice with some accuracy.

To me, this is the line we have to walk, between not become disempowered and hopeless (which it sounds like, your friend has a touch of) or becoming too sure of ourselves and deluding ourselves into thinking we understand something that we don't in fact understand. That said, enlightenment is absolutely possible and with the proper motivation, and practice you can be one of the few in your community who actually get it at the level that matters... :-D

Hey Fabien,

Like most people, I was somewhat put off upon first encountering Daniel's book. My reaction was pretty much derisive and condescending. The only reason I kept on reading was that, by the time I encountered the book, I was already used to being somewhat put off by dharma books, while still being open to seeing what there is to be learned from each. As is probably your experience too, the book pulled me in right away and completely changed my practice. Most striking for me was his discussion of impermanence as something to be seen *here* and *now*, following *this* *particular* *technique*, and not just an invitation to philosophize about how things end, we all die, etc. etc. Up until then, I had been lulled into the notion that the stuff about impermanence and friends was kind of spiritual bullshit that could be mostly ignored.

You don't need to buy into Daniel's book 100% right away. In fact, the right attitude is one of open skepticism. Adopt the maps and techniques as a working hypothesis, and see for yourself step by step which of the stages he describes actually unfold (and repeat themselves) for you. Personally I am extremely surprised at how accurate the thing is.

I guess it's a fair question: how common is stream entry? I don't think anyone really knows because this is so rarely talked about openly and because it's so often deliberately shrouded in mystery. It seems to vary a lot from person to person too. Here in DhO you will find several people who've reported rapid progress (rapid compared to the usual expectations of years in optimal conditions). We're definitely a self-selecting group, but I suspect that a lot of it has to do with the experience of talking openly and matter-of-factly about these attainments... It really makes them seem less foreign and remote, and that alone probably goes a great way towards removing barriers to progress.

To complete a thought: in my case, I got to an Arising and Passing Away event within a couple of weeks after encountering Daniel's book (before that I had been mostly practicing shamatha, though not by that name... I just didn't know much better). Practicing off-retreat (and probably aided by being single and living alone , I got myself to Equanimity about two and a half months after that. About a month later, I went on a short retreat (three nights), my first retreat, in which I practiced very earnestly. I got out not with stream entry but with a very visceral sense that it was OK not to get stream entry. Then, the next day, I got my first fruition. I'm totally awed at how true the path described in the book is.

Author: shokolah

Thank you so much for your insights guys. It is wonderful and what I truly needed. You have demystified a lot of preconceived ideas for me. No one has ever talked to me in these terms before. This is very exciting. For the first time, I am getting enthused and I feel a fire has been ignited. Something which was totally missing before and plain boring quite honestly. I think I had accepted that it was going to be that way. There are so many Buddhist out there being lured and hooked into a fantasy world. It is a tragedy of epic proportions! I am so glad to have found you! :-)

Author: ccasey

Your thread here reminds me that just over a year ago I wrote "Help" in the sand with a stick on the beach during my first silent retreat, and passed the A & P on the fourth day. I found Daniel's web site a couple of weeks before the retreat and printed out the noting practice handout from his web site. Then, I followed exactly what it said on the handout. Five months later on retreat--stream entry. It is here and available for everyone! In this forum we can help each other, and don't have to wait until a teacher is available. We can all learn with each other from anything that comes up. And, then, we can help to inform our local community as we grow with insight.
My best to you.
CCasey

Author: shokolah

Hi,
Thanks for that. Can you tell me where exactly, I can't find? Please send me link.
Best wishes,
Fabien

Author: shokolah

I think I've found it. it is on the InteractiveBuddha.com site. If so, you don't have to reply. Cheers!