Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I am new to the forum and have looked around to see if this has been addressed. Can't find anything, but apologies if I'm mistaken.

I'm curious about whether people have physical practices beyond sitting? When I first started meditating, it was with the Kwan Um school (zen). Kwan Um teaches zazen, of course, but they also have a bowing practice of full prostrations that I found very satisfying. (Interestingly, I also always felt a little sheepish, like it wasn't quite as "good" as zazen. It seemed to be prescribed if practitioners were really struggling with restlessness in their minds.)

For the past few years I've had a daily asana and pranayama practice, which has affected my sitting practice dramatically, in terms of being able to access (and release) bodily sensations.

I suppose what I'm most curious about are the attitudes members of this community take toward physical practices. Means to an end? Remedial -- i.e., only to be used if necessary? Integral part of meditation practice?

Karen

Hi Karen,

Does Judo count? It's not exactly a spiritual discipline (though there is a bit of philosophy for those who care for that), but it does seem to have an attenuating influence on excess spiritual "energy", and it literally forces one to acknowledge one's physical limits, to stop conscious planning in favor of trusting one's practiced intuition, and to "get real" in a very immediate, physical way. Also, there's always a host of physical sensations ripe for investigation when sitting after a training session.

I don't really view Judo as an integral part of my practice, but I've been doing Judo longer than formal meditation, and sometimes I like to think that one reason I'm fairly unperturbed by freaky "energetic" phenomena lies in the "grounding" influence of regular physical work-outs.

What I know about asana / pranayama (not much) seems to point at the opposite: aren't they fairly direct energetic practices, roughly in the same ballpark as chigong?

I'm looking forward to more responses,

Cheers,
Florian

Author: JamesAlexander

Cool, I was just about to publish a similar thread. I truly feel that physical practice should be an integral component of any transformative process. I have a tendency towards being very mental and need physical practice to balance things out.

I practice Qi Gong every morning and I find this to be very fruitful. With the right intention it can serve as shamata practice with movement. It also seems to get the subtle energies moving through the body. I feel my formal sitting practice has become more balanced after i started qi gong - it's easier to feel and sense the body, it kind of gets me "into the physical sensations", not just observing at a distance.

I also practice the martial art aikido. For me this serves as a form of insight practice, because you have to let go of the ego to be able to connect with the partner. The implications of Aikido in terms of practice are huge, so I wont elaborate further right now, but consider what Hakuin Zenji said:

"Improvement in motion is worth a million times more than improvement in silence."

I'll be back with more later.

Peace Karen

Hi Karen. I value asanas and find them useful. I'd say that posture is not only something physical, but shows your attitude towards life, and getting my posture straight and developing body awareness helped expressing a healthy attitude in daily life a lot.

Somewhere Chelek posted that he got till 2nd path with Chi Gong only, so it should work with asanas+pranayama as well if done properly (with the right attitude). The problem I found is that in all other virtual places I know of there is no down-to-earth information (for housholders) on how to get enlightened through hathayoga, so when finding a balance for myself, I do the stuff as much as I want to, and that's enough to feel "at home" inside my body. I haven't really practiced "physical" yoga intensively (=fulltime) for a longer time (decades), but it feels like an extreme path for attaining enlightenment.

Btw, I am almost using kriyas, cleansing techniques, with more regularity than asanas.

Judo counts! :-) Anything that challenges the habits of the body wakes us up in an interesting way, don't you think?

James, I had the same impression (that a physical practice can serve as a shamata practice) when I first started Ashtanga. It's a practice that seems like a perfect petri dish for this kind of work: each asana is connected by a specific set of movements, each movement is accompanied by an inhale or an exhale, as well as a specific gazing point. If you want, you can also learn to count each sequence in Sanskrit. So, counting, gazing, consciousness of the body. How could you NOT concentrate? ;-)

I'm not hearing anything specific about the pursuit of enlightenment from the yoga community, though -- at least not overtly. That said, many (most?) yogis seem to be hesitant to put words around their practices (hmmm, how zen-like!) so it may well be that people are consciously using their practices to cultivate concentration but are choosing not to say much about it.

I get that: when you do dream work, it's pretty apparent that putting it into words (or even conceptualizing too closely) invites distortions -- so the inclination to keep deep practice experiences separate from language is, I suppose, understandable. Or is that a heresy in this particular community? =D

What do you mean when you say "an extreme path," Julius? I'm curious.

Author: understandingcat

Hey Karen!

Thanks for sharing! If anything, sitting has helped me advance in my yoga practice and the other way round! Somehow (I don't know the facts :-) I believe that the Buddha and lots of other cool dudes in India had yoga as part of their daily life but I might be wrong. :-)

I find the embodied practices like yoga to be very helpful for increasing the basic awareness of the bodily sensations. For example thanks to the essentual breath work (less mechanic that in pranayama) I discovered that I feel the breath "better" not in the chest, belly or the nostrils but in the back, between the shoulderblads that move ever so slightly.

If anything yoga is very helpful in discovering the inner resistance and dealing with it in a soft and accepting way, not pushing oneself to be as others. It's great for warming up and energizing the body before the sitting and helps the mind to center and become alert (for me) not to mention all other beneficial effects. :-) I guess I do not consider yoga to be a "physical practice" as such although I can definately see why it has become so in the West and that in many schools (like Ashtanga yoga) it attracts hardcore folks that are pushing themselves because of the physical and somewhat athletic aspect of this particular yoga style. I for one combine the two and when not in a class do hatha yoga, which is more intuitive and allows for improvisation. Hope this helps.

Namasté,

Irina

Author: understandingcat

One more thing I remembered: in his tiny and brilliant book "The Zen of Archery" Eugen Herrigel shares about years of archery training with a Zen master in Japan and from what I could see it was not at all about hitting the target outside himself. Great account of what dropping oneself is!

As you asked about asanas (yoga question) I believe we can do yoga and we can do stretching. Awareness and investigative attention is the basis of any true yoga practice. Getting grounded in yoga helped me to get back to my body, getting to know it better. This is one practice in which I feel body and mind are one, there is no place for thoughts...

Gassho,

Irina

hi karen,

by 'physical practice' do you mean 'something involving the body' or 'something that is good for your physical health'? those are pretty different things.

as for me, i do walking meditation just as much, if not more, than i sit these days, and have found it to work well.. often i seem to just know when it's time to sit, and, again, often with speedy, amazing, fruitful results. my thoughts on this matter are that the time i spend sitting around on the computer, skating, walking around, doing whatever, etc, while obsessively churning around in the back of my mind, winds up some kind of power unit which goes to town when its time to get things done. then again, there have been other times when things have gotten done even when its not time for sitting: i got 1st path when walking while on retreat and 2nd path (these are terms used in theravada buddhism) while i was kinda half-way between sitting and reclining, listening to music. as a result, i'm all for practice as it happens in every day life, because i know it works. im not sure i would recommend that for someone who hasn't gotten to stream-entry yet though. its complicated. for anyone who wants stream entry, i recommend, if they're genuinely up for it, going on an intensive retreat of a set time period, during which time they should pound it out in formal practice, virtually non-stop, doing nothing else unless absolutely necessary, with little consideration given to physical health beyond staying alive and keeping health good enough that it doesn't become a hindrance for the period of the retreat. i know a number of people this has worked for and it is by far the most common kind of 'stream-entry story' i've heard.

on another note, i thought i'd relate this story here:

i know someone not on this board whose a&p led him to do tai chi seriously for a year, which led to an interest in energy work, my influence on which led to an interest in vipassana, which allowed him to see the universal characteristic(s) of all sensations/phenomena, which caused him to see the thing itself. after he learnt vipassana, he eventually tapered off his tai chi (but didnt sit much). rather, he kept his mind on the energy he could perceive moving around, followed the movements until they moved into formations in equanimity stage, and stayed on the formations until they revealed the non-dual, collapsed, and gave him stream-entry.. solid gold star for that one.

@Karen: Hathayoga was for extremists, they did experiments like not lowering your hands below your head for months as a form of tapa, to gain siddhis and/or transcend the body somehow.

In „The anatomy of Hathayoga“, the author writes about siddhasana, one of the sanyasis' favourites, and that it can damage the nerves and blood vessels in/around your sexual organs when done without support (a cushion). It clearly supports celibacy, transforming your sexual energy and „moving it upwards“.

Another example that comes to my mind is the suggestion I read in the hathayoga pradipika or in books by Vivekananda (in Raja Yoga, funny, no?), that doing alternate-nostril-breathing for 40-80 rounds (not sure), 4 times a day, will cleanse your whole energy system (nadis) within a few months, making your mind ready for meditation. Naively as I was, and having not that much else to do,I tried it (like 20 rounds thrice a day), but my Indian teacher made me stop it immediately as soon as I told him about it because a) I was leaving India a few months later and wouldn't continue the practice and b) it was too strong, drying my energy and physical body out.

In short, hathayoga is an old and I'd say a proven path (leading to raja yoga btw), but it was meant for people doing it fulltime and having no other responsibilities in life but to master body, breath and mind. It's life-long practices mostly, very intense, rewarding and dangerous, and not suited for „retreats“ or changing lifestyle (my personal conclusion).

The best words for asanas as a support to concentration I know of is „romance with yourself“. About pranayama I am not half as sure, I stopped it in favour of Robert Bruce's New Energy Ways (www.xehupatl.com/download_files/freebooks/Robert_Bruce-New_Energy_Ways_1.pdf), I didn't feel like holding my breath anymore. I only do alternate-nostril-breathing with my mind, without fingers or holding the breath.

JamesAlexander: "Improvement in motion is worth a million times more than improvement in silence."

theprisonergreco: „I'm all for practice as it happens in every day life, because i know it works. im not sure i would recommend that for someone who hasn't gotten to stream-entry yet though. its complicated.“

@JamesAlexander and Tarin:
Very true points, I'd really love to hear more from you on the topic. What would you say about formally practicing for concentration in everyday life? (What about another thread on this?) And why aren't you sure whether to recommend it before stream-entry? Is it that it's easy to trick yourself, or mix first and third training up?

My last experience was that after a day with a few hours of diverse, not-so-successful guided sitting practices (no jhanas or cause/effect), the next day my concentration and equanimity in everyday life were extreme (for my standards). The day was surely more profound than the formal practice the day before, e.g. writing and listening at university with awareness, and not loosing my self-awareness for more than a few minutes, but on the other hand, it would have been impossible without the sitting I did the day before.

I found switching into an observer mode the most interesting possibility for everyday life, but I can loose it for quite long. When it's a „good day“, I can do it while writing, listening, talking, but only minutes at a time, the relaxation is not deep enough for more (or life's too busy).
Also tried counting breaths from 1 to 10 all day long, there you easily know how distracted you are, but it's quite artificial. But while sitting on my bicycle it works a lot better than observing.
Last option is the Divine. It's similar to „observing“, more playful and crazy to be in this mode, and things can touch me quite at my heart. It's the most free state of the three.

So that's my experience of „improvement in motion“. The less formal, the better it feels, but the easier it is to not use your full potential.
Someone should invent a mobile brain-wave-scanner that gives you an electric shock or something whenever you're getting lost in thoughts, or (more human) whisper a quote of wisdom into your ear .
After writing this, I feel like trying to formally do everyday activities really well ... maybe expecially doing the things that I do absent-mindedly so far.

Author: understandingcat

Hi Julius,

I did not read the Pradipika and I don't really see the reason to do it. In my post with "hathayoga" I meant the asanas only. I was curious about pranayama at one point but stopped in time :-) The essential breathwork that for example teachers like Donna Farhi teach (great techniques in "The breathing work" that has changed the way I relate to my breathing) is about becoming consious of the natural state of breath and is very different from controlling or manipulating the breath through quick techaniques and mechanical manipulations. It is about untying the breath and learning to see where we block it instead of trying to control it as it is done in pranayama. Glad to hear you stopped doing those exercises before they caused you any harm.

Let us all breath freely -it is a courageous act. :-)
Gassho,

Irina

Author: PavelO

If you look at Patanjali's model (ie. 8 limbs of yoga), you will find that asana and pranayama are not meant to lead to enlightenment - they are preparatory stages before pratyahara, concentration, insight and samadhi.

There are numerous models and types of yoga, but I like picking Patanjali's because it appears to be most lucid and easy to understand. Not forgetting that it fits really well with Buddhist methodology (which comes from and builds upon yoga).

I started with asana some 8-10 months ago, learning on my own, practising daily until recently and I can't say that the effect is similar to concentration. The effect that asana has on my mind and state (during and afterwards) is distinctly different, pleasant but not as spacious and still, there is also an energetic element there that I do not get from concentration.

Asana obviously works on flexibility and more importantly appears to release chronic tension and helps with general movability. I started practising martial arts while doing yoga and I progressed a lot quicker and found things easier than other people. I also managed to heal some very old postural problems and a problematic lower back (injury). So I am certain that asana is a wonderful practice to take on (especially to deal with deep-seated tension) but I do not think that it can act as a concentration practice (apart from staying in one asana and doing concentration, which is exactly what concentration is in the first place).

I have also had some problems since starting asana (which is the reason I do not do it daily anymore) such as lower body temperature (winter was hellish), fluctuating energy levels, increased sensitivity to mind-altering substances (including caffeine, I get shakes from one espresso) and a couple more.

/Continued/

Author: PavelO

Pranayama has been much gentler to me - apart from this strange fixation on breath control, which has been problematic when learning how to do concentration properly (through letting go of the breath). It took me a lot of time and I still struggle sometimes.

There are definitely two ways of using the breath (as Irina rightly points out) - control and letting go and they each lead elsewhere. I still struggle trying to combine the two approaches - I do a lot of breath control in Systema and I play around with abdominal breathing in everyday life, but then I pay for it in concentration and I do somehow become more rigid mentally.

In a way I like the yin/yang metaphor - both asana and pranayama are very masculine and power-driven, as is most of yoga, which is fine, but I distinctly feel the need to balance it out (being a boy and doing a lot of boyish things anyway). There is only so much power-driven practice that I can (and want to) handle.

Author: JamesAlexander

Julius wrote: "What would you say about formally practicing for concentration in everyday life?".

You know the tibetan masters, when asked about their attainments, will casually say that there is this short moment, just before falling to sleep, that the "lose themselves". (See "Blazing Splendor") Besides that, they're always practicing. I'm not quite sure what to make of these statements, however I feel it`s important to consider what type of practices one should do while in the middle of everyday chaos. I suppose doing hardcore jhana inducing one-pointed concentration exercises will be a bit awkward if your in a social situation? My guess is that the type of practices where you rest in "bare attention" or "witnessing" will serve as the best foundation for a 9 to 5 type of practice.

I work as a teacher and our work situation is a bit stressful, to say the least. When things really get out of hand I find I almost immediately fall into a "witnessing state". I intentionally work to uphold this state as much as possible through the rest of the day as well, but of course it's damn hard.

In one of Alan Wallaces books he spoke about using different modes of awareness for achieving shamata. So I suppose using this "bare attention" or "awareness-ing" as a basis for shamata is also possible. If someone else got something to say abut this please do...

James, I'm still trying to get clear on some of the terms folks use around here, but I'm going to guess that "bare attention" and "awarenessing" are similar to no-mind? If so, it's definitely something I use often at work -- in stressful situations or when I feel aversion to a person or idea. I just try to "blank slate" and be present.

Amusingly, my boss is fascinated by this and asks lots of questions about it. I work in a corporate environment, and it really is a pleasure to bring these practices to the workplace.

@ Irina: Hathayoga is a lot more, but it's obvious where the confusion on this comes from ...

1) I like Patanjali, but the sutras are a Raja Yogi's point of fiew, while a Hatha Yogi would have to do a ton of groundwork for gaining steadiness, discipline, detachment and the like so that control of the mind will happen easily. The Indians believe that by controlling citta (~mind, but more than thinking) you can control prana (chi, breath), or you can do it the other way round. So you hold your breath for minutes, and hold the mental suspension that's accompanying it, to control your mind. But that's a Hatha approach, and most of the stories on those practitioners seem to be myths. Patanjali clearly suggested a different methodology and used asana only for meditative postures, and pranayama also in a very special and limited way compared to for example the hatha yoga pradipika (haven't read much of it anyway).

2) You know the basics of yoga philosophy? Purusha (soul) and prakriti (matter), and matter has 3 tendencies (gunas): sattva, rajas and tamas.
The gross tamas is what yama and niyama (the 1st two limbs, moral training) are dealing with, asana (posture) and pranayama (control of prana) fall under the energetic and subtler rajas. Pratyahara (sense control) and dharana (concentration) are sattvic (causal), dhyana and samadhi (meditation) belong to purusha.

Same guess here. So how to cultivate it? Can you push it or only give it room to grow? Is doing witnessing practices on the cushion something that helps witnessing in everyday life? I didn't experiment with it yet.

edit: I believe that observing consistently enough in everyday life would be sufficient for insights to arise, but till now to have a good level of attention, I need the boost of formal practice, whatever it is. I'd prefer to support everyday awareness better over powering sitting practice that doesn't help the "rest" of life.

the reason i dont recommend using an 'every day life practice-only' approach for people who are not up to stream-entry yet is that their insight probably just isn't strong enough (otherwise they'll have already finished that path), a matter that can be remedied by more formal, dedicated practice. after i got it, things pretty much unfolded on their own. but up until that point i'm more inclined to think it was the hard work i put in second after second on retreat that did the trick. of course, an intense, obsessive interest in this stuff in your every day life as well doesn't hurt. there's a kind of gravity field that you need to break out of in order to get path and every bit probably helps. getting stream-entry was the hardest thing i'd ever done in my life.

Author: JamesAlexander

Hi Karen,

I think we're hitting at the same territory with these expressions, however there are lots of fine distinctions. My formal sitting practice is based on a stage-like model inspired by dzochen teachings:

1. Neutral witnessing (to counter the chronic tendency for evaluating and judging every sense experience)
2. Choiceless Awareness (to combat the tendency for focusing on one sense object rather than an other - and hence getting involved/preoccupied)
3. Inward and outward directed attention (to inhibit the constant doing of the mind: thinking, commentating, remembering and forming mental images etc and pointing to the fundamental nature of mind - in the sense that there is no perceiver and perceived phenomena)
4. Mind essence (REALIZING firmly the non-dual nature of mind or what stage 3 points to)

I'm basically working on stage 1 in my formal practice, trying to stabilize the capacity to just be attentive at any sense object that arises. This is also the capacity that I try to bring into my daily life. Stage 2 and 3 are for me only momentarily available while in formal sitting. and only when i actively pursue these modes of awareness. Stage 1 is starting to become a habit of sorts.

I fully agree with "greco" when he writes:

"the reason i don't recommend using an 'every day life practice-only' approach for people who are not up to stream-entry yet is that their insight probably just isn't strong enough".

I'm not quite sure how I would line up the term "nomind" to "my" model, however I guess this zen expressions tries to convey something about there not being a fixed point from where attention arises. If thats the case it would line up with stage 3 and 4 in the way that you can experience nomind "moments" and finally realize nomind "all the time".

Author: JamesAlexander

Shit, I think I've diverted this thread away from it's original starting point...

...however, it would be interesting to here from the "theravadians" how the model above levels up with concentration and insight maps. It seems to me that the model above is a fusion of shamata and vipasana? Shamata because there seems to be a need for stability for the latter awareness stages to emerge.

I was going to make the same divergence, so thanks for beating me to it. I'm having some "translation" issues as I read these discussions. Honestly, I'm a little overcome by all of the words/categories/concepts/steps. It's *fascinating* and I am interested to relate my own experiences to some of these words/categories/concepts/steps -- but zen doesn't give me a very broad vocabulary for these kinds of specificities -- & the guru of Ashtanga yoga famously limits his instruction to: "You do!"

Hi Karen,
Neat discussion. Side note: there's a glossary page which just got started a few weeks ago - you're in the unique position to be figuring out our jargon... hint, hint... seriously: the easiest way to have a term defined would be to start a thread on the glossary page. After being immersed here for over a year, I have a hard time noticing our idiosyncratic usages anymore.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: PavelO

Julius: Thanks for that, thats very interesting. I have been doing similar practices in Systema to the ones you mention in Hatha (walking/running to different breath patterns, holding breath - both of them to reach the point of panic, or to trigger fight/flight and overcoming it, in Systema this is done in order to operate on deep-seated bodily fear, tension and repulsion, as well as learning how to accept and let go of panic). It works. The breath-work focus in Systema is more on emotional control and the use and release of tension but the technique sounds remarkably similar.

I am glad to find out where the source material for this part of the martial art comes from, I have been suspecting as much.

/continued/

Author: PavelO

As for the hot/cold, yin/yang analogy, it has nothing to do with yoga philosophy (which has a different list of metaphors, for the listing of which I am grateful as I am a bit rusty on it myself), it is based on a quote of a friend of mine who is hugely into Chinese internal arts and energy work who pointed out that based on his experience of asana (years of practice), it has a very 'hot' and 'masculine' element in terms of the effects, the general sense and the energy. While I have no real understanding of taoism, my personal experience with asana can best be described in the same way, I do not know how to explain it better. Asana simply leaves me very hot and I am more likely to experience hot emotions after I finished (funnily enough there is the associated dropping in body temperature) - maybe this is all only specific to my personal practice of asana and is not a general element.

The way I see it, asana, by its nature, is aggressive to the body and mind and requires will-power, endurance and strength, all of these qualities are hugely celebrated in the West, which is perhaps why this set of practices made it so big here. I enjoy and benefit from working on these qualities, but I need to balance them out in order to peacefully coexist with other people, my partner and myself.

/continued/

Author: JamesAlexander

Hi Pavel,

It would be interesting to here some more about the physical excercices from Systema. In my aikido club we have started to import some of the excercices that you use (breathing/pushups and absorbing punches etc.) I dig it!

Author: PavelO

Sorry for going on such a huge rant here but I would also like to respond to the issue of practice outside of the cushion/mat.

I am still quite new to active practice but have been interested in self-development, transcendence and enlightenment for a while (I read a lot) and I find that since I have started actively practicing, it's kind of hard not to practice all the time, or to read the given literature without understanding it as a manual for active practice. I do not generally find as much permanent interest in the philosophy and theory, which is the opposite of how it used to be.

Since I started doing concentration and insight (and I am very much a beginner at both) I found that it is the only thing that helps me navigate the emotional turmoil, difficulties in life and general sense of unease (the last 2 years have been tough in a lot of ways), I have found it hard not to practice whenever I remember to because nothing else I know helps. I have been using it for way longer than I knew of its existence (ie. getting through addictions through paying attention to the triggers and the cravings, watching them disappear when cornered) but it helps me to do it consciously and with some framework (ie. I do not forget the skill).

So when I remember I do concentration when I walk, I do mindfulness a lot, when I feel miserable I do insight, I practice in the bus, I practice on the way to work, I practice when talking to my partner, I practice as much as I can and it generally makes things easier and more fun, it is not a struggle at all (there is always some form of practice that is not a struggle). I prefer to improve on my skill-set rather than getting lost in ruminations, watching TV or 'entertaining' myself. It gets a bit easier every time.

Hi Pavel,
1) but yin/yang as regarding male/female is the same as ida/pingala (the energy nerves at the left/right of the spine), and they're female/male. To be precise, ida, the female, is sattvic, cool, and pingala is rajasic hot. Later shushumna will be the sattvic one. Hathayoga aims at a balance of the two, but when the practices are overdone, you can get a "pingala burnthrough" (craziness, loss of control).
For the rest, yin/yang certainly is a different philosophy from the yogic one.

2) That's propably the biggest western misunderstanding on yoga. Asanas are done well _only_ when you let your body do them without interference from the wanting mind. I got similar instructions on pranayama. Patanjali "defines" posture as steady, comfortable and relaxed. And that's the basic definition of non-meditative asanas also. For me it's kind of hilarious to call sth. yoga that feels like sports or aerobics.

edit: when you want asanas to be more "female", I'd do them statically, and more forward bending or inversion (e.g. yoga mudra), eyes closed, and even shavasana in between each of them. the idea is to give your body 2-3 minutes to relax into the final position, than stay as long as comfortable. And pranayama are not as "bad" when you do them comfortably as well, like to 70% of your capacity only.

Author: PavelO

Hey Julius,

OK, great! Is then hatha yoga all about kundalini? - ie. balance of the two channels?

Triggering panic is quite easy. One of the exercises we do is to lie on the floor and with every in-breath completely tense up the body and keep it tense (long deep breath, keeping the breath for some 5 seconds), then release breath and tension alike, keep lungs empty for 5 seconds, repeat 5-10 times (always tension with in-breath, release with out-breath, roughly 5 seconds in between). Then increase the 5 seconds in between (lungs full&empty) to the amount of time that your body and mind require in order to start thinking that you are about to suffocate (you shouldn't need more than 30-60 seconds for something to show up). See what comes up. Repeat.

Another exercise that is a little bit more advanced is to breathe while running slowly (can be done while walking, preferably briskly), 1 in-breath to 3 steps, 1 out-breath to 3 steps for about 20-60 seconds, then increase to 5 steps, 8, 10, 12, whatever, always keeping the rhytm for 20-60 seconds, then going back down the way you went up and finishing at 2 breaths. It doesn't matter what the rhythm is or how far you take it (some people can take it to 20, I most definitely can't).

For some reason the body is really uncomfortable with particular breathing patterns and will start throwing up all kinds of emotions, which can be breathed through. I also found this to be the easiest way to find out where there are blockages in my breathing and to breathe through them. The panic and emotions coming up can equally be breathed through and overcome.

As far as I know both of these exercises are completely safe but to find out how to do them properly I would go to someone who has already mastered them (ie. a Systema instructor).

/continued/

Author: PavelO

1) Thank you for explaining that, I have not read enough on yoga to see the connection.

2) God, I don't think that I have managed too many things in my life that were done without the interference of the wanting mind. Practice included (perhaps even more so). I don't think that I would be practicing at all if I did not 'force' (will) myself into it initially.

I found that posture only gets steady, comfortable and relaxed with practice (which involves the posture being rigid, painful and tense initially) and that that's where the release of tension happens. I follow Iyengar's instruction (first yoga book I followed) and stay in asanas for quite long periods of time and there is often an initial block of tension that dissipates over time. You are completely correct in recommending shavasana in between postures, it definitely works for me - I find that a lot of time there is a release of heat and tension that comes out from the practiced area of the body. I will check out the rest of your advice and find out what happens.

Going back to the initial issue - asana being hot/masculine/forceful(willful?), I base this on the comparison of this practice to others and on the hot sensation during (tension released) and after (hot emotions, elation) practice. I also find that asana is forceful to the body in order to learn how to be peaceful towards the mind (the ascetic approach to self-control). Like eating raw chillies and learning how not to be mentally affected by the bodily sensation (focus/attention). Is this at all a fair description?

Is your practice different from mine in its effects? - if so, how? I am self-taught so I would like to find out whether I'm the only one who experiences it this way or whether other people have a similar experience (and have drawn similar conclusions). It would make it easier for me to tweak my practice accordingly.

"...asana is forceful to the body in order to learn how to be peaceful towards the mind (the ascetic approach to self-control). Like eating raw chillies and learning how not to be mentally affected by the bodily sensation (focus/attention). "

I think this is a potential experience in asana, but not necessarily one to be cultivated. If your tendency is to force it or use it as a kind of trial, you might want to explore that impulse. It's not asana practice that's got those qualities (forcefulness and a tendency toward asceticism), though it can be put to that use.

As James alluded, the Yoga Sutra says: "sthira sukham asanam" (sthira = strong, steady, and sukham = comfortable, sweet) which means the posture should be steady, yet sweet. That balancing act is for body, mind, *and* bodymind. People who have a tendency to force will (ostensibly) learn to find the sweetness, and those who tend to default to comfort will (ostensibly) learn to apply themselves more diligently. Again, we're talking about body, mind, and bodymind.

Much as an insight practice teaches us to finely identify sensations, so can a stable asana practice that is attentive to its everchanging (moment by moment) relationship to sthira and sukham.

As far as cooling your practice, yes, holding the poses longer and savasana in between. Also try entending the exhale to make it a bit longer than the inhale.

Author: Crazywisdom

Since concentration and insight helps you deal with emotional turmoil maybe you don`t need to do anything else but if you feel the need for some practices that work more directly with healing and balancing emotions I`ve got a couple to recomend. Six healing sounds is very good for balancing emotions, cleansing out the bad ones and strenghtening the good ones. Inner smile as taught by mIchael Winn and Mantak Chia also. "Secret smile" as Santiago Dobles describes at thetaobums.com (use the search function) is even more powerfull but I like all of them and secret smile does not have the same cleansing effect as healing sounds it jsut buidls positive emotions very, very strongly by first creating them and then belnding them with sexual energy. Inner and secret smile can be done on the bus etc. and the healing sounds can be done subvocally as well as vocally so it too actualy. To learn to generate loads of smiling energy is a great thing because before and after meditation, or at any other time, you can use 30 seconds to a minute to generate loads of positive light relaxing feelings.

Author: JamesAlexander

Smiling is very effective!! When I get tense and frustrated during practice I gently produce a smile and try at the same time to evoke a positive emotion. This is also a great practice to do while in daily life...I often sit back and watch my 12-13 year old pupils when they're working in the classroom. There's so much positive and youthful energy in these kids, but when I'm all stressed out and in "teacher-mode" this subtle energy goes unnoticed. However, the conscious smiling opens up the heart/mind and lets it all in. This goes to show that the way we use our body and our physical senses has an impact on our mind state. By the way, I think loving-kindness should pervade the body aswell - not just the mental side of things...

Author: PavelO

Thanks for the advice.

I did an asana session yesterday with longer pauses, longer exhales, eyes closed, no forcing and it seems to have cooled it down a lot (I did not notice the hotness) but I was also a lot less tense than I usually am so I can't make any conclusions just yet. I will keep on doing it this way for a while and see.

Crazywisdom: I read the books by Glenn Morris so I am familiar with the secret smile, will give it a try for a while. It appears to me that the six healing sounds would be better learnt from a chi kung practitioner - there is a video on youtube but I am a bit hesitant to learn something this complex off the Internet.

Thanks a lot.

Ha=sun, tha=moon. Mostly it's said that it's the two channels you need for enlightenment, another pair of opposites that can be joined (don't ask me how) are two prana-streams, prana and apana, whose job is in- and outbreath respectively.
Generally, hatha yogis try to master all of their physical and energetic body (heart muscle, glands, prana). Kundalini is energetic, but you first develop the sensitivity for your gross body.

Btw, holding your breath till you feel like you're suffocating also can awaken kundalini (it is said, like near-death-experiences). When I last did it thrice in a row, it created quite a bit of heat at the base of my spine, but generally I don't like forceful stuff like this and don't know what the effect of doing this extensively could be.


Yes, effort is needed, and you also need to will to practice, else you wouldn't practice. And some asanas (mayurasana, I took the effort to learn it) can't be done in a very relaxed way. But I found that some asanas (take paschimottanasana) simply don't require pushing, and the first times I touched my feet were not the result of pushing, but of relaxing. One just has to vary the attitude to fit the posture. And with balancing asanas it's similar, when you give everything, you can't give it for long.

You could say I use strength when required, but remain gentle (no chili, but lots of fibre ;). See http://www.theyogainstitute.org/simple_practices.htm, that's the "four attitudes" I work with, and aishvarya relates to strength, but is only dominant in a few asanas, backward-bending mainly.

Generally I agree with Karen (sthira & sukham).

Author: Crazywisdom

You can also try to smile to your organs and other select parts of your body.

Author: Crazywisdom

Healing sounds realy is an easy and straight forward practice with more or less zero chance of damageing yourself unlike a lot of other practices. Loads of people at the thetaobums.com have learnt it from books. The only problem as far as I can see is the sounds themselves. One needs to hear them but a video fixes that. You can also do healing sounds at various levels of complexity. Just sounds, with generating one or more of the emotions asigned to the organ, and/or the assigned colour, and/or with added smiling to the organ. I am sure there are other even more complex versions I am just familiar with the Mantak version.

IME be careful with physical stuff: avoid doing it outside of having a formal teacher, etc. "Learning from books" is deceptive and doesn't correct us when we're doing something that can be physically dangerous.

http://www.shinzen.org/shinsub3/artBuddhismYoga.pdf

"What Buddhism Can Give to Modern Yoga:
An Interview with Shinzen Young

good and to the point, I'd say.