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Hibiscus Kid, modified 3 Months ago.

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Posts: 18 Join Date: 5/3/18 Recent Posts
 
dave m, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 78 Join Date: 6/28/17 Recent Posts
From my perspective, I would change your analogy a bit.  For me, stream entry was like having two massive pecs appear out of the blue, allowing you to lift 200 lbs.  And they're constantly doing that weird alternating flex and release boob dance that some muscle men do.  The correct form and work done lifting weights just sets the ideal conditions where those pecs are more likely to pop into being.

Insight is damned strange.  It's possible to know things directly based on experience, but the experience comes first, and then the knowledge just kind of bubbles up into consciousness.  You can believe the self is impermanent all you want, but it won't make any real difference until you know it directly based on your own experience.  And when you do, stuff/perception just changes automatically on its own.  It's the strangest thing I have ever encountered.

Intellectualizing things is seemingly inevitable, but probably not very helpful.  It does seem irresistable, though.
Daniel Jones, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 8 Join Date: 6/11/18 Recent Posts
"What would some key non-intellectual insights be on the path?" 

Early one (for me) "I am not my thoughts". "Insights" are just like other sights, you see there is a tree, there is a road, there's thoughts going on by themselves and something other-or-rather is watching this.

Practice is paying attention to things as they are and not looking for anything in particular (delusion / pre-existing perceptual bias changes what you see). (And there are many footnotes to this).
shargrol, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 1535 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
some easily understandable examples of non-intellectual developmental insight are the stages of cognitive development. These are insights we all went through as kids/young adults. Lots of fun to go on youtube and see all the examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYI_kIFyMd4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnArvcWaH6I 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgY2DmEEGI

Meditation creates similar insights but for adults.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 3875 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
The path, for me at least, has been a combination of intellectual understanding (insight, if you will) and deeply grokked insights. I think that's true for most people. The mind is going to want to "understand" what's happening no matter what because that's what our minds do. It has been helpful many times along the way to get an intellectual understanding of what to expect, what to look for in specific places along the way, what types of practice to do, etc., and then the insights followed. The reverse has also happened, is it did with my first cessation/fruition. So, of course, I think having both "modes" in operation makes a lot of sense.

Caveat: My comment assumes that you can stop intellectualizing while you are sitting in meditation.
shargrol, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 1535 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
(Not as a reply to Chris, just adding more fodder for discussion...)

This might work for an examples of an Adult insight:

Intellectual "there is a difference between pain/discomfort and the reaction of aversion"
Non-intellectual "oh! that's what the sensation of pain/discomfort feels like without a reaction of aversion. It's just pain/discomfort."


Intellectual "there is a difference between actively thinking and being aware of having thoughts"
Non-intellectual "wow! it's possible to watch thoughts happening! they just happen on their own."
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Just adding to the above...

Check out the classic rabbit/duck illusion after reading this post. The image in the picture is both a rabbit and a duck--I just told you this, so you have the intellectual knowledge. But when you look at the image, you will only see one of them at first. Then you will see the other, and once you do there's no going back--the image flips back and forth easily, it can't be unknown. That's the fundamental insight.

...or maybe that's just a totally unhelpful analogy. I tried!
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 3875 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
That's actually a very good analogy for insight. There's a similar one that either appears to be a vase or two faces.
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Oh yeah, I know that one. 

I think illusions like that kinda work as an analogy because they let you experience a similar perceptual shift. Some sort of cognitive restructuring occurs when you see through the illusion to the second image. The image doesn't change, but you do.
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alguidar, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Intellectual vs. Fundamental Insights

Posts: 106 Join Date: 6/4/17 Recent Posts
Good thread, didn´t even knew what could be considered an insight.

With your examples now i know.

thanks