Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I don't want to do this in the live forum, so I'm asking if there is someone who will give me some guidance by private message. I'm very confused about my practice right now, and am having a very difficult time. If it turns out to be nothing to do with any Dark Night experience, I won't waste your time unduly. I'm not looking for counselling though am likely to come across as being very down and whingey because that's just where I am right now. I'll try to be practical as I am looking for a practical solution, but a bit of patience from you might be needed. Thanks very much.

Apologies if this is not the sort of thing to post in here.

A couple of people have pm'd me already. I don't want to waste anyone else's time. Thanks.

'waste' is such a loaded word, fellow human bean and yogi..

good luck on your adventures

If you haven't already, please read (and then re-read) the chapter on the Dark Night in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha...

http://bit.ly/w1QKN

This information is extremely valuable.

Jackson

Re-read again yesterday, which excrutiatingly revealed how much I'm letting this bleed through into real life right now :-/

But after talking on PM and making some decisions, I do feel that I can have more affect on the situation, rather than just allowing the situation to affect me so much.

I've been exclusively practicing concentration meditation, waiting for clear evidence of achieving first jhana as a sign of being ready to start insight practice. It had become a bit desperate. Especially when the DK is kicking in a bit hard.

I've now had two people say that I have enough concentration to get on with it. So I can get on with it. This might sound like a simple corner to have turned, but it's opened up possibilities that were hitherto hidden behind this looming wall with FIRST JHANA spray painted in six foot high black letters.

Today I've sat, got to access concentration (or maybe a very soft jhana, but it matters not now), and used one of the exercises suggested in MCTB. I've sat and noted properly (for a first attempt) for the first time on the mat, and a 45 minute session turned into 1 hour because I set my timer wrong, and it was an interesting session.

I've also agreed with my wife to go on 10 days retreat at the beginning of next month, and want to get as much practice noting as I can before I go so I can get the most out of my time there.

So I'm feeling much more positive today.

Good to hear it, wabznasm. I invite you to keep us updated on your progress.

One more thing - have you seen the Shinzen Young videos on the Dark Night (or, Bhanga)? You may benefit from them as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUryO_vJT1o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEit-DtWQ38&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r78uUarpGsI&feature=related

Take care,
Jackson

This is crazy, how can you expect to reach jhana with all these things floating in your head, concepts of jhana, stages of progress, noting like a madman.

You have to let go of all these things and relax, jhana will arise of itself it doesnt need you to do anything.

When you create complications for yourself you will just keep spinning in the madness. You have to untie yourself from all these concepts, like concentration vs insight, dark night, its an illusion that keeps you unsettled. They exist but they dont need your obsession, you can relax that and enjoy the peace right here right now.

I mean seriously what is the dark night really? Isnt it just a person in their spiritual pursuit abstaining from something like concepts, desire, forcing thoughts, situations, objects etc and then feeling a backlash from the ego.

Why dont you just stop and enjoy the peace right now? and any desire or thing that arises, feel it fully and dont run?

some thoughts from a worried observer,

you make some good points, netineti, but there are a couple i want to address for the sake of clarification:

1- the dark night is more than an egoic backlash resulting from the abstinence from things like 'concepts, desire, forcing thoughts, situations, objects etc'; were it simply that, every dark night yogi who decided to 'relax and enjoy the peace' would make it through the dark night into equanimity regarding formations, which is not the case, as there is a well-known history of meditators stopping to enjoy the peace and getting stuck, particularly in the late dark night (desire for deliverance comes to mind). i find it more useful thinking of the dark night as something - however you wish to further conceptualise it - that one might just have to be willing to go through a bit, whether or not one wants to, at the same time bearing in mind that keeping the drama out or at least keeping it to a minimum will be good for you as well as the people around you. depending on one's style of practice, different things may work, but having a lot of mahasi in my background, i can't advocate enough the benefits of strong noting as well as patient attention to peripheral vibrations and whatever else shows up.

2- stopping and enjoying the peace is not a luxury everyone will find available immediately available to them, as the kind of peace that is on offer in the dark night is an acquired taste and takes some time getting used to.

3- i agree that getting entangled in concepts about jhana is more or less a dead end here.

4- your suggestion to feel fully any desire or thing that arises is, imo, profoundly solid advice, so thank you for your contribution, which i found valuable although a bit roundabout and potentially misleading, hence my commentary.

To netineti:

I don't expect to reach jhana. I did understand that it was a necessary gateway to pass through to be able to do any insight practice, but I don't need to be concerned with that any more.

It reads like you're coming from a position where you understand more about these things than me. I can accept that these things don't really exist, but I can only do so in my head. I haven't had the experience that undeniably shows me that they don't exist.

The rest of your message doesn't really help me. I understand about experiencing everything fully but putting that into practice is a skill I'm learning. Which is why I'm here.

Thank you for taking the time to try to help.

I have now, thanks very much.

Interesting in that some of the experiences of the meditator were reminding me of what I'd read of shamanic practices just before Shinzen said about some of the experiences being common in shamanism. And that I'd read about this in Stanislav Grof's Spiritual Emergency, and Shinzen went on to mention the SEN.

Time to sit now.