hello,

i just read through the actual freedom site and was hoping anybody could help me out with clarifying a few things to let this sit together in a larger conceptual framework... i am just checking that my ideas about this make sense

The basic thing that came across was that on the whole the concepts at a broad level seem to be almost identical to the concepts of pure and undogmatic insight meditation such as encouraged by Daniel Ingram and people round here.

It seems logical to assume that a PCE is a fruition, or is no different than the experince of things described as emptiness/no self/true self/nirvana/god or something beyond conceptualising.... whatever words you want to use. Other similarites seem to be using awareness to observe thoughts and sensations and see that they are not really us, but mere impulses.

The differences i see are the processes involved to reach that, that actual freedom doesnt include formal meditation, and it goes about things in another way, through this questioning technique, and also that actual freedom claims that the freedom can be entirely permanent where as within undogmatic insight meditation it isnt really claimed that things become entirely pure and permananet but just the apprehension of things becomes permanantly altered.

i dont doubt that both the method of actual freedom could work, and that the claims to complete freedom could be true.

i found a bit objectional that from my current level of understanding of things that he seems to disregard 'enlightenment' in the meditative traditions almost entirely. it appears in much of the concept of actual freedom he is talking about the very same thing as pure enlightenment from an undogmatic insight mediation sense... and what he is really talking about in terms of the delusion of enlightement is all of the dogma and formalities of eastern religions, and transcendent practises.

so although it generally makes sense, the overall impression he suggests about meditation, seemingly all meditation is that is misguided/dogmatic. being as i percieve that he is talking about a dogmatic, religious type mediation and not pure insight meditation then the only benifit i can see from degrading meditation is that if it was simply just more time consuming, and that if somehow wasnt really neccessary to bother with the formalities of sitting.

it seems that the idea of mahasi style meditation and the purpose of this the dharma overground is all to do with simplicity and effectiveness, so if this actual freedom concept and method was more effective, then lets all jump ship! i think the attitude here is the more effective the better. i am initially skepticle the actual freedom method could be more effective, but who knows..

so what are peoples opinions in terms of meditation vs the actual freedom process of asking questions about our experience.. and do my reflections on it make sense.. or have i failed to understand anything major?

it seems overall unless it is substancially faster or less effort, or pointing toward a different thing, then downgrading meditation just seems incorrect.. it also appears that talking about meditation the way he does has the potential to confuse people, put them off doing entirely effective meditation pratices and just add another thing to get confused about.. like if i read that knowing a bit less than i do now, i might take on board all he says about meditation being deluded and find that i had found a answer which overall might not be the right path at all and potentially increase my own deludeness for a time if i was to start dismissing meditation.. a little like somebody who found buddism might dismiss christianty as dogmatic and disregard that at the very pure root has more in common, and ultimately flows out of the same experience

Sup,



Okay then.



It may seem this way at first, and perhaps even long after the first look, but until / unless one has a far-more-than-basic understanding of both insight meditation methods, processes and outcomes and also of actual freedom methods, processes and outcomes, it may be difficult to compare and contrast the two accurately.



It may seem this way at first, and perhaps even long after the first look, but until / unless one has a far-more-than-basic understanding of both insight meditation methods, processes and outcomes and also of actual freedom methods, processes and outcomes, it may be difficult to compare and contrast the two accurately.

If I may ask, why does it matter to you? How does this effect your current goals or methods or whatever?



Do not these differences seem to suggest that the two are far from identical?




Alright...that's a fine first step, what do you suppose you will do next?



I tend to think similarly of his convictions-- that he is mostly talking about the dogma and formalities-- but regardless, 'being' is fundamentally delusional and the vast majority of people / texts / other resources slinging around the word 'enlightenment' are consumed by attempting / achieving radical, full blown solipsism (which is the opposite of an aim to eradicate / eradicating being). In other words: a majority of contemplatives are heading deeper into delusion, rather than away from it. Though, even having knowledge of the possibility of an actual freedom from the human condition and all that it entails will aid one in avoiding such things (if one's aim's in these matters be pure, that is). Good news, eh?



Pure insight meditation does not actually exist as I think you may be implying. You see, as insight meditation can only take place in a delusion-capable or delusion-ridden mind, one's "pure insight meditation" is only "pure" in relation to other forms, and perhaps the thought that it is "pure" is also supported by one's own ideals. Think about it...if insight meditation was truly pure or clear in method or process, then why all the "paradox," confusion, poor communication, disagreements, and so forth that-- even when people are actually trying to reconcile the issues-- inevitably crop up in such discussions?

This is not to say that insight meditation, especially that of the relatively pure type, does not have merit; although I am also not saying that it does either. As you can see, I am a bit of a fence sitter...as there is simply not enough information available to draw any realistic conclusions regarding which approach is "best." I say though, regardless of whether one decides to meditate or not, that one should-- as soon as possible-- begin sincerely putting AF methods to use.



Haha... you might want to first jump on the ship and travel across the gaping river of being prior to jumping off; and steer clear of getting pulled off course by Oneness if it be encountered, as it is / contains some particularly seductive sirens (and I'm not talking about Devas here).

Really though, I'm aware of your point due to context, despite your oddly ironical use of that particular idiom. So hey, go for it...



And what if, by chance, you have now stumbled upon the one (confirmed) method which does actually eliminate suffering and delusion entirely? If that is the case, would it not be worth abandoning the alternatives? I am not recommending blind devotion or anything of the like, by the way...investigate-- lose yourself temporarily and experience a PCE-- then decide. If that be done, 'you' may find that the decision regarding 'your' eradication has already been decided upon... and that's where the fun begins!

Trent

Hi trent..

thanks a lot for the response.. feels like i am just fumbling around with conceptual frameworks too much

'It may seem this way at first, and perhaps even long after the first look, but until / unless one has a far-more-than-basic understanding of both insight meditation methods, processes and outcomes and also of actual freedom methods, processes and outcomes, it may be difficult to compare and contrast the two accurately.

If I may ask, why does it matter to you? How does this effect your current goals or methods or whatever?'

to start a practice such as insight mediation you need somekind of a percieved goal, be it delusional, or quite sane, otherwise you wouldnt just undertake the practise. the percieved value, at least at first when you have little mometum, is the key thing, and im not really overly locked into any method as yet. just whatever works, is dogma free, and leads to more of a clear insight. mahasi seems to be that thing .... though in terms of how this effects my current goals and methods it is becuase what i read about actual freedom interested me as made a lot of sense.. so it does have a sway in terms of how i am going about things. i atleast want to consider it in some way

i think its apparent proximity to insight made me somehow skeptical at first, or atleast wanting to classify it, but that is pretty stupid in terms of none of this being verifiable/comparible without seeing for yourself, and impressions of these things have no bearing on what they are or arent. i dont want to make assumptions and know that the things we are discussing go into strange territory where you can just get it or not get it due to experience, without any other justification or explination

all in all it is probably the sense that it somehow requires a leap of faith that leads me to perhaps overdoing trying to build some kind of picture to try and understand what i am dealing with first,
i should really just try actual freedom out and see what happens.... all in all, i dont doubt the claims of insight or actual freedom..

actual freedom just opens an alternative to insight which otherwise appears quite all encompanssing, and feels worth looking at.



Do not these differences seem to suggest that the two are far from identical?

yes, i shouldnt assume they are the same, especially as i dont know what im comparing


Alright...that's a fine first step, what do you suppose you will do next?

i can see i am just shooting in the dark in general, i should try it out.. or just forget about it..


the rest of what you wrote i found interesting and pretty stirring... thanks


EDIT: looking further into this as it appears that aside from anything else, that as it sort of appears to justify itself, and it is outside everyday reasoning, then it is simply something you can either work toward or not, experience or not experience. Arguements or assumptions about it appear meaningless. As it appears only truely tangable from the inside, then when on the outside it feels like all you really have if your own sense of inclination toward or away from it. i am aware that if i was inside the pce state then any of these deliberations might seem stupid, irrelvant, meaningless, or whatever.

the only logic i have at the moment inclines me against it, wherver that logic comes from .just feels best left alone at this point.

Very sharply put. Indeed part of the PCE seems to be wanting it more and more.

You're very welcome.



Why do you suspect it requires a leap of faith? I wonder this because faith is not necessary at all (all faith must be abandoned eventually). Just read and attempt to understand, experiment a little bit and see how things work out. If done sincerely (being honest with oneself) you'll prove the harmlessness (figuratively and literally) of doing the practice, especially if you experience an EE or a PCE.



It is only outside of everyday reasoning if one has not brought it into one's every day. That is to say...peace on earth is already available right here, today, now, at whenever time, wherever you are, and it will only be uncovered if you dare to care enough about yourself and other humans so as to sincerely investigate the matter.

Perhaps it feels best left alone at this point because you recognize that it will be the end of 'you.' If that is the case, I have to ask: why are you letting blind nature dictate the course of your life?

Trent

Hello,

[Edit] Seems the OP was deleted...or something. Let me know if you want me to remove this reply (which contains the previous, now missing, post)



What exactly is it you're claiming to have accomplished? Arhatship?



I have found nothing hard to describe about what it is I experience these days (freedom from the human condition). And personally, it has proven to be far "beyond" anything else I've experienced (including arhatship of the MCTB-described variety).



Okay...



Unfortunately for those deluded enough to buy into it, this is half baked at best...easy to understand and impossible to resolve, eh? One can disguise one's own confusion in vague (thus profound sounding to the gullible) messages such as this, but I do not suffer that sort of foolishness one little bit. 'Primordial Awareness' is a delusion, and I would be doing no one a favor by saying otherwise.



There is no mix up or confusion over here...perhaps this common-theme of (misplaced) confusion can be recognized for what it is, then reeled back home and leveraged toward realizing one's own autonomy.



Interesting, is it not, that you confidently state "its not new," and yet proceed to immediately defy your own certitude by acknowledging that you may well be clueless...



As I stated in another thread, there is no "movement," it is all quite still here. There are, however, people are reading, exploring, investigating, sharing...and this is wonderful.

Have you considered that these foreboding feelings you find yourself experiencing may be happening because you've actually comprehended just what is being said, and as such, are scared shitless at the prospect(s)?




In a sense, yes...funny writ large; however, as 7 billion of our fellow humans are suffering like mad, it behooves one to reel it in and consider just what is at stake.



If there were any affective feelings at all, of any kind (let alone strong ones of the variety indicated), it has nothing to do with the PCE or an actual freedom. If you would like, I encourage you to post what your current methods entail and I will attempt to redirect you when I have the time to reply; that is, if your aim is genuinely to sample the PCE.



I don't really follow what you're saying here...care to clarify?



Alright...



Okay then.



You may want to continue your investigation, as you seem quite confused...but, of course, you may do whatever you like.



I'll leave all of that for Daniel to comment on if he wishes to do so.



I can't really figure out what you're saying here...care to elaborate?



Well...no problem. Though I wonder where exactly you were nudged to and by what specifically.



What exactly is this "slight link?" Could you elaborate? Is this related to the ebullient gusto AF aspirants often seem to suddenly stumble into?



Alright...and what if it only appears to be that way? What then?



And what if not discounting those traditions is actually the block? What then?



I am not pointing these things out to offend you in any way, by the way...but do you see how you have done the following?

In this paragraph you have alluded to or outright admitted to: possibly being insensible (might be nonsense), mad (the ramblings of a madman), out of control (feel it was just ... incidental), defensive of buddhism in general as you perceive it to be threatened, suspecting that it is unsettling to those you identify with, and unsettling to you due to its newness to you.

Perhaps, and I can only suggest, you should take a step back from this, take a nice big deep breath, then perhaps dive in again when you're ready to read with refreshed, unclouded eyes.

Best,
Trent

Hi trent...

thanks for going through that trent. ill just make this post to clear things up and thanks for offering to delete my post, but theres no need. the reason i deleted the post was that i basically got all paranoid and just wanted to remove all trace of it. now, not being paranoid, it doesnt bother me. It shows where i was then, and where i am now, however that relates to anything, its madness in action. Any specualtions i made about the PCE and how it fits into anything really where just ramblings of a madman. I will just take your advice and take a step back, step away from the forum, appreciate my life as it is. im not interested, now atleast, to investage how any of this relates, whether or not my current feelings are some kind of step to the appreciation of what you guys are on about. So ill just keep it neutral to how i feel, speculation free as possible, and no need for anyone to put this into any kind of other persepctive if thats cool,

One of the only things that made sense in my post was that i said if i fall out of this, or if i feel like i am going mad, ill let you know. So this is me doing so. ]It might be helpful for anyone who falls into the state, for whatever reason and may chance upon this, to read, as it appears relatively common.

My experience was spontanious. and lasted about 24 hours. The experience is pretty much an experience of nihilistic existentialism, felt to the very core. Its been decribed as 'the filth' and 'sweet sickness'. This is from a description of Jean-Paul Sartre's 'nausea' (mine wasnt as severe as this)

Over time, his disgust towards existence forces him into near-insanity, self-hatred; he embodies Sartre's theories of existential angst, and he searches anxiously for meaning in all the things that had filled and fulfilled his life up to that point. But finally he comes to a revelation into the nature of his being. Antoine faces the troublesomely provisional and limited nature of existence itself.

In his resolution at the end of the book he accepts the indifference of the physical world to man's aspirations. He is able to see that realization not only as a regret but also as an opportunity. People are free to make their own meaning: a freedom that is also a responsibility, because without that commitment there will be no meaning.

i can see it for what it is, a horrible feeling. a kind of accident of experience, but maybe something valuable in terms getting past it and reintegrating it.

also seems common with various drugs. my mum described a similar though weeker sensation after childbirth. (i specualte this feeling would lead to post natal depression).

i think people in this state can alternate between personalites as it cycles between careless meaningless, and paranoia. Someone might be very sedate and then kind of become anxious. i was calm much of yesterday, in the evening very nervy and edgy.



so, im not really too bothered at how any of this relates. im just happy to have my senses back. for me it feels it seems clear it affected me spending too long on forums in general

so thanks.. and im out of here! maybe there should be a thread on this site about dealing with this kind of stuff, maybe there already is, and framework/speculation free. it does seems to be charted within buddhism/spirituality as a trap, but it isnt a buddhist/spiritual trap. its just trap. Maybe certain practises could make one more liable to that, at the same time, the same practises could make you see through it easier if it happened. its just a thought loop, i dont like the thought of anyone getting trapped in that through lack of rational perspective. because it is salvagable.

:*


edit: just to add. in the state i was in...

1: i didnt feel tired and was awake all night.

2: i didnt feel hungry.

3: i was impotent

3: there was a sense of unreality and disassociation

4: a concept of making its own sense that couldnt really be argued with, a meaningless that makes natural sense only through its meaningless. hard to break through if breaking through is meaningless.

5: a sad floaty loneliness, feeling of kind of curse, and yearning to return.

6: a strange tendency to rationalize it was a good state and to say it felt ok in vague ways, and that you had to get your language right about it. in this there was some kind of sense that as you were stuck there, part of you still wants to make out it is correct, and worth doing, the other part aware that you dont really want to push others toward this point. maybe that is why its hard to get the language right. . (it did feel 'ok', but that seems excactly why its not ok. the okness gives it momentum and holds you in there to not break out)

7: feeling that i knew more about things and can theorise everything correctly and put things in their place through the inherent logic.