PCEs and TNH

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Paul Anthony, modified 13 Years ago at 9/5/10 7:48 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 9/5/10 7:48 PM

PCEs and TNH

Posts: 71 Join Date: 6/22/10 Recent Posts
Hi folks,

After listening to the Hurricane Ranch discussion on cultivating the PCE - I was struck by a comparison with Thich Nhat Hanh's various ghatikas on mindfulness during breathing and other activites, for example:

"Breathing in, I know this is the present moment - breathing out it is a wonderful moment"

Or

"Breathing in, I know I am alive - breathing out I smile to life"

Is this not practically very similar to Tarin and Daniel's approach to the cultivatation of felicity with the "How am I experiencing....' question? To me, there seems to be a common thread of aspiring towards a state of felicity and letting go of resistance to it. How do you all think AF relates to the non-dual approach?

With best wishes,

Paul
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David Nelson, modified 13 Years ago at 10/23/10 11:47 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/23/10 11:47 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 28 Join Date: 10/20/10 Recent Posts
Hi Paul,

I would say that it is about as similar as a question is similar to a statement, which here is the case. You may hear various people refer to meditative practices as 'dissociative' or as causing delusions. Your inquiry brings a degree of light onto this matter. The question 'HAIETMOBA' causes one to really look, with a no-holds-barred approach, into one's current experience. There is no room for delusion because you are asking, you are open to how it is going for you. In this way you can achieve innocence, wonder and/or naivete. If you simply tell yourself that everything is wonderful and perfect you may be glossing over some important clues as to what is really going on.

Regarding TNH's
"Breathing in, I know this is the present moment - breathing out it is a wonderful moment"

When you ask yourself how you are experiencing this moment of being alive, the only moment you can possibly be alive, it will become quite clear that it is the present moment, and that you may experience it with wonder. It won't matter whether you are breathing in or out or even holding your breath.

Aspiring towards a state of felicity is a start, but it is not enough. This aspiration must be backed with the fortitude to achieve some real results. This means asking oneself HAIETMOBA. Is it everything that you want it to be? If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple.

Interestingly enough, one of my favorite house DJs is also named Paul Anthony. There is no relation, is there?
, modified 13 Years ago at 10/25/10 4:46 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/24/10 11:50 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Hi David and DhOthers,

There are a few things I am going to address here. Ultimately, this may belong in a personal practice thread.

[a]
You write:
Aspiring towards a state of felicity is a start, but it is not enough. This aspiration must be backed with the fortitude to achieve some real results. This means asking oneself HAIETMOBA. Is it everything that you want it to be? If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple.

I am curious about your statement of asking if this moment of being alive is be everything one wants it be.

I cannot see wanting this moment to be anything other than what is it, because this is what is and this moment is not harming me in any way. I can add to this moment (juggling, gardening, sitting, etc) just to explore humaness and many things are fun, marvelous: is that what you mean?

[b.]
If this moment should turn terrible with outside influences, as moments have been in the past, then I will "want everything to be that [which] I want it to be" (removal of terrible, where terrible is defined in my world by lots of pain and/or cruelty (and cruelty I define elsewhere on the DhO)). Generally, I will have limited ability to enable that manipulation of circumstance depending on the nature of the external influence, or my ability to 'disassociate'.

[c]
While disassociation is clearly a useful psychological tool to mentally avoid adverse circumstances, for my own pain I hope to fully associate to the point of non-separation (which separation 'association' implies in its definition as an addition, or bring together of separate things). In the presence of cruelty, I do not want to be 'disassociative being'; I wish to prevent/derail/or at least be able to not abandon creatures in cruelty, including the perpetrator.

[d]
I am finding in daily life that 'complete association' (i.e., sensateness, no self) is very interesting, albeit with patchy continuity.
I have known, from the gym/tai chi/music/cleaning/caring, that 'complete association' (caveat: I am making use of a misnomer here in using association) produces better results, results whose outcomes exceed and are unknown because self-boundaries are removed.


{edit: punctuation 1 minute after post, name change next day}
Craig N, modified 13 Years ago at 10/25/10 3:14 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/25/10 3:14 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 134 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Paul

Going for the latest reply award

Paul Anthony:
"Breathing in, I know this is the present moment - breathing out it is a wonderful moment"


this might induce an attentive sensuousness.

Paul Anthony:
"Breathing in, I know I am alive - breathing out I smile to life"


This probably won't as it smacks of an affective response but YMMV

Paul Anthony:
Is this not practically very similar to Tarin and Daniel's approach to the cultivatation of felicity with the "How am I experiencing....' question?


It's highly unlikely to be intended similarly since in AF haietmoba is intended to bring about the PCE and thereafter a permanent state of actual freedom. Even if TNH is pointing toward the PCE I would highly doubt he is pointing toward AF as an outcome of such practice. From a teaching position of enlightenment he would more likely be intending the result of such practice to bring about a state he is familiar with such as a nondual state.

Paul Anthony:
To me, there seems to be a common thread of aspiring towards a state of felicity and letting go of resistance to it. How do you all think AF relates to the non-dual approach?


Short answer: it doesn't
Longer answer: it's the opposite ... 180 degrees as they say. That's not just dogma. It really is an about face, but it will take experience with both to see that for yourself. If you want to experience what actualism has to offer, I recommend sticking with the advice of actually free folk.

Trying to be the first person to point out similarities between AF and {insert doctrine here} is surprisingly common (I've done it too) and sadly, counterproductive as you confuse yourself by not really experiencing the actualism method and because it's 180 degrees opposite it stops your practice before it had a chance to get started.

Craig
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David Nelson, modified 13 Years ago at 10/25/10 2:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/25/10 2:47 PM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 28 Join Date: 10/20/10 Recent Posts
k a steger:
Hi David and DhOthers,

There are a few things I am going to address here. Ultimately, this may belong in a personal practice thread.

[a]
You write:
Aspiring towards a state of felicity is a start, but it is not enough. This aspiration must be backed with the fortitude to achieve some real results. This means asking oneself HAIETMOBA. Is it everything that you want it to be? If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple.

I am curious about your statement of asking if this moment of being alive is be everything one wants it be.
>>>I never stated what you say I stated. Let's be clear here.
k a steger:

I cannot see wanting this moment to be anything other than what is it,

>>>Good.
k a steger:

because this is what is and this moment is not harming me in any way. I can add to this moment (juggling, gardening, sitting, etc) just to explore humaness and many things are fun, marvelous: is that what you mean?
>>> No.
k a steger:

[b.]
If this moment should turn terrible with outside influences, as moments have been in the past, then I will "want everything to be that [which] I want it to be" (removal of terrible, where terrible is defined in my world by lots of pain and/or cruelty (and cruelty I define elsewhere on the DhO)). Generally, I will have limited ability to enable that manipulation of circumstance depending on the nature of the external influence, or my ability to 'disassociate'.

[c]
While disassociation is clearly a useful psychological tool to mentally avoid adverse circumstances, for my own pain I hope to fully associate to the point of non-separation (which separation 'association' implies in its definition as an addition, or bring together of separate things). In the presence of cruelty, I do not want to be 'disassociative being'; I wish to prevent/derail/or at least be able to not abandon creatures in cruelty, including the perpetrator.

[d]
I am finding in daily life that 'complete association' (i.e., sensateness, no self) is very interesting, albeit with patchy continuity.
I have known, from the gym/tai chi/music/cleaning/caring, that 'complete association' (caveat: I am making use of a misnomer here in using association) produces better results, results whose outcomes exceed and are unknown because self-boundaries are removed.


{edit: punctuation 1 minute after post, name change next day}


>>>As the rest of your post is a reaction to your mis-interpretation of my post I ask you to re-read the above post with the awareness that HAIETMOBA is an acronym for 'How Am I ***Experiencing*** This Moment Of Being Alive'.
. I am not talking about asking if you are getting the external conditions that you desire the most. How is the experiencing? Is it pure? Of innocence? wonder? naivete? Is it everything you want it to be (is it a PCE?)
, modified 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 2:17 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 12:00 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Ok.

A curtsy to your courtesy.
, modified 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 10:33 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 9:39 PM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Hi David - it is worth noting a few points in your reply.

I posted comments from about 1:30 a.m. EST to 3:30 a.m. EST last night, but wanted to locate the intention and removed the post.

So here is the post again, distilled.



First, I did predicate my post as being potentially more appropriate for a practice thread. So, you may note that b - d have no questions for you or anyone.

Your comments of course are welcome. This is a public thread and I replied to you, an initiation of communication.

___

You write:
">>>As the rest of your post is a reaction to your mis-interpretation of my post..."

About interpretations and mis-interpretations to what you said, to what i responded, and your follow-up:
As I noted in the brief post, even one person, Goldilocks, can interpret three sensations from porridge.

Two people can manifest as many interpretations as they can conceive. 7 billion people worldwide can...

On what is an interpretation based?
Is interpretation based on a physical sense?
What can interpretation cause?

Considering the constituents of 'interpretation', should one's interpretation be so conclusive?

All to say, your interpretation is an interpretation. I accept that it exists on par with my own (many and ethereally founded) and that countless more exist in others.
We might inquire, before concluding.
Not a lecture: my own drive for singular conclusiveness of ideas has (also) had unnecessarily harsh edges here, amid colleagues.

Just an fyi.

____

And, welcome to the DhO.


{per usual, folks: editing immediately following post for 1 minute...}
{Ooo: second edit for meaning, 3minutes after post. gah.}
{edit three: adding a quote for clarity}
, modified 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 10:13 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/26/10 10:10 PM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Now, back to the source of my query (which may also be 'my source of the query' and fundamentally baseless if one considers the query based on self; I would clarify that this is a practice question):

David, you wrote:
Aspiring towards a state of felicity is a start, but it is not enough. This aspiration must be backed with the fortitude to achieve some real results. This means asking oneself HAIETMOBA. Is it everything that you want it to be? If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple.


I have bolded the source of my query in your above comments.

And I noted:
I am curious about your statement of asking if this moment of being alive is be everything one wants it be.

You noted:
>>>I never stated what you say I stated. Let's be clear here.
Yes, let's do our best to be clear with each other and anyone else.

In your later post (10-25), you clarify (to my view):
I am not talking about asking if you are getting the external conditions that you desire the most.


Do you think you can clarify what you mean (it being understood that my ability to understand may be limited regardless of your efforts, and, good-naturedly, we may draw the line-of-utility/futility somewhere before wall-hitting (metaphorically speaking, as in runner's bonk)?

1. In your first post, if I replace "it" with the preceding object the sentence is: Is [HAIETMOBA] everything that you want it to be?
Is that what you mean by "it" (haietmoba)?

2. Then you ask-answer, If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple.
Do you mean experiencing this moment of being alive is a moment that should be everything I want it be? Further, if this moment isn't everything I want it to be then there is there is a reason that this moment is not everything I want it to be and that reason is fairly simple?

This comes across to me as being a self's assertion of desire laid over any moment. But you clarify in a later post that this is not what you mean:
3. I am not talking about asking if you are getting the external conditions that you desire the most

________

So, I am curious to know what you mean by asking "Is it everything that you want it to be? If not, why not? Usually the reason is fairly simple?", and how you do not intend in the aforementioned words "getting the external conditions that you desire the most."



{Edit!: added runner's bonk to distinquish wall-hitting from frustrated wall-hitting, first minute after post}
Nad A, modified 13 Years ago at 10/27/10 7:09 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/27/10 7:09 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
k a steger:
1. In your first post, if I replace "it" with the preceding object the sentence is: Is [HAIETMOBA] everything that you want it to be?
Is that what you mean by "it" (haietmoba)?


Seems clear to me from David's clarifying post that you should replace "it" with something like: "the mode/way/manner of experiencing".
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Paul Anthony, modified 12 Years ago at 5/23/11 12:35 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/23/11 12:34 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 71 Join Date: 6/22/10 Recent Posts
David Nelson:
Hi Paul,

Interestingly enough, one of my favorite house DJs is also named Paul Anthony. There is no relation, is there?


No relation, I'm afraid David but I'll check him out!

C
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Paul Anthony, modified 12 Years ago at 5/23/11 12:52 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/23/11 12:45 AM

RE: PCEs and TNH

Posts: 71 Join Date: 6/22/10 Recent Posts
Craig N:
Hi Paul

Going for the latest reply award ....

Trying to be the first person to point out similarities between AF and {insert doctrine here} is surprisingly common (I've done it too) and sadly, counterproductive as you confuse yourself by not really experiencing the actualism method and because it's 180 degrees opposite it stops your practice before it had a chance to get started.

Craig


Thank you for this reply - late but worth the wait. You're absolutely right that the 180 thing has been a barrier for me with AF. A voice in my head repeatedly insists that the haietmoba is not that different from such and such a non-dual practice. Latest contender would be the 'What is this?' practice that I read about in Stephen Batchelor's recent book in the context of Korean Zen. I'm beggared if I can see 180 degrees of distinction between this and haietmoba.... I guess, in the end, what does it matter if these practices are similar? AF comes highly recommended by people who've given me consistently valuable advice and insights, so I'm going to focus on it in my practice and see what happens.... emoticon

Paul