weird raptures survey

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weird raptures survey

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Practical Dharma

Hello everybody,
I think it might be interesting to share some experiences concerning raptures since they can be so out of the normal. To start out I´ll share mine: The only really weird rapture I had so far was that suddenly my body seemed to explode and lose it´s shape. When this wore off I had the strange feeling of being 10 meters tall (with the eyes shut). That was really funny!
So I would love to hear your takes on this,
have a good day,
Martin
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 211 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hi Martin,

My own experience with raptures has been varied. The most common raptures are tingling sensations throughout the body that can happen anywhere, but most often occur in the head (esp the top of the head) and in the genitalia (hey, it's true). The sensations are pleasant but often have an intense quality to them, and I notice that they are most common during the dukkha nanas, though all kinds of other physical energetic phenomena seems common while cycling through the 3 characteristics as well. I'm not sure if these phenomena could be classified as rapture, though I recall hearing that there were several different kinds of rapture, so I suppose so... These experiences include intense radiating heat in the body, feelings of heat/pressure flowing upward from the spine, jolts of energy coming up the spine (which feel like electrical shocks--much less pleasant than the rapture described earlier) and all sorts of things with the bodily pressures and feelings of contortion. All fun stuff... emoticon
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Thank you for this, vjhorn! I liked your reference to the heat/energy phenomena because I find these really interesting. I know of daoist traditions that report the same things and explain it with the concept of opening closed energychannels throughout the body. I believe these concepts to be true because my kungfu-teacher is actually healing peaple in energetic ways. I´ve heard him talk about experienes with his teachers related to this that would fall in the category of the siddhis. Your and Daniel´s Buddhist Geeks episodes about siddhis really struck me because of the similarity to what my teacher was saying. This heat flowing up from the spine is a really good one because the daoists say there´s one mayor channel located there and that energy is rising from the saccrum up the spine and into the head, interesting.
Oh, I remember having the notion that my body was spinning around several axis in my earlier practice but this didn´t show up again since.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: woman_alone

Hi Martin,

I've had some experience with a similar thing. No explosion for me - it was like I lifted upward or stretched. My physical body seemed to compress - like a pancake - into the floor and the resultant "me" was about eight feet tall, very light, and with a very clear sense of perception. This has happened a couple of times. Try opening your eyes next time. I found that the perception of the feeling shifted, and the sense of the body disappeared. Let me know what happens for you!

Tiara
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hi Tiara,
same goes for me. When I opened my eyes the whole thing calmed down slowly. Only the twisting and spinning of the body stayed longer. Recently this does not happen to me anymore. The only physikal raptures I have during almost every sitting is percieving the whole body as vibrations and interference patterns between sense doors. This light body clear sense of perception and the merging with the floor reminds me of the ideals in Taijiquan. The sharp perception is there called shen ming. Very interesting how different schools and traditions come across similar events.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: woman_alone

Excellent Martin!

I'm at about the same place. I suffered months of twisting and sweating. Sometimes it felt like I was being twisted like a rubber band! But then I increased the amount of practice, and I've also moved out of it. The rapture qualities are about what you describe, some days clearer, some days less so. Kind of like a full-body hum. How many hours are you sitting daily?

Cheers,

Tiara
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Yes, I have also all of these experiences since I started meditating 2 months ago, but nothing too unpleasant. (But then I had similar experiences for a long time, before I ever practised meditation; I can see the danger here for superstitious people to read these signs as prove of spirit possessions, especially if you wake up in the night feeling as if being 'attacked' by another being, although it is only the autonomous nervous system rewiring itself, uponing up the meridians along the spine.]

The crucial thing, so it seems, is how one copes with the sexual energy that is activated due to the meditative practice. With a little bit practice, it is easy to get what is called 'female orgasms', that is, one can experience sexual bliss without ejaculating, thereby (a) keeping the 'elixir' (Taoist jargon) and (b) stay celebate without unhealthy supression (!), but ideally one does not get too much involved into the sexual side of the body transformations (it is a trap!) --- A by-product of the meditative practice is a change or transformation within the nervous system, and how I understand it, it is the sexual energy (jing, or chi in Taoist jargon) that is the fuel for these changes.

*

Did anybody get cold feet like described here:

http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_cold_leg_chi_yoga_meditation_practice_effects.htm

I had these experiences of ice-cold feet (also other body parts, but less so) for about two weeks. There is also the feeling that cold air-bubbles are coming out of the legs.

Probably a good read is Tao & Longevity by Nan Huai-chin and this can also be helpful:

http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf

http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/index.htm
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RE: weird raptures survey

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To Tiara: how funny that you experienced similar things. I am sitting 2-4 hours a day and noting quite often during the day, how about you?
To Abe Dunkelheit: I see you are into daoist practices, too. Are you doing the classic orbit-meditations or the original Daoist practice(Tai Chi Men)? My Kungfu/Taichi teacher learned from Grandmaster Lu Jin Chuan, the lineage holder of the original daoist sect, Tai chi men. Perhaps you will like his website: www.taichimethods.com
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Martin,

actually, I am not into daoist practices per se; I am primarily interested in the descriptions of the various kung fu stages to get a better understanding (map) of the various body-mind transformations that can take place! I found much of the information on meditationexpert.com very helpful here. And yes, I am always interested in what the daoist schools have to say, so thanks for the link, I have a look!

*

[As a side-note: Why somebody would find my post above not valuable is beyond my comprehension. I think it is an extremely valuable post. I have had many kung fu symptoms during the last 15 years without ever knowing what was going on and meditative practice dramatically intensified them. I would have expected that this is the kind of information people are looking for (at least I was looking for it.) --- For example, if Nanavira Thera would have known this kind of stuff he would not have had to commit suicide, not knowing any other way to deal with his 'satyriasis'! The daoists are the only one to my knowledge who teach to transmute sexual energy rather than supress / repress it, and where people would finally suffer from all sorts of health problems, which are totally unnecessary! In general, the Chinese seem to be more interested in treating the body well, so that it does not become a hindrance on the path, rather than to mortify and mistreat it like many of the other traditions did!]
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Yes, this kind of information IS useful for those who bump into more extreme symptoms, as well as for those who are inclined to pursue qi-development in particular. However, your generalization is surely off mark. Every culture has had it's own share of extremism in terms of physical mortification and neglect, including the Chinese, whether Buddhist, Taoist, or martial/wushu practitioners. The way source information is presented these days to make it palatable and marketable is a separate issue altogether, and is commonly found in hatha yoga, zen, meditation, tantra, qigong etc. so that the impression you quote in reference to "many of the other traditions" is unwarranted, especially when considering there is no such thing as a "Chinese tradition" in any sort of unified, monolithic, generalized sense. From age to age, from lineage to lineage, the treatment of body differed dramatically, including extremely painful methods of training (the physcial pain rarely being intended, but seen as inescapable, or sometimes a useful side-show to train awareness), as well as balanced, or even gentle procedures. Anyway, it seems this is departing from the "weird rapture" hands-on emphasis of this thread, so, if you'll excuse me...:-)
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hokai, I think your clarification is critical to this thread. I like it here because of, not in spite of, the inclination on your part (and Daniel's) to speak up, jump in, and contribute.

So there!
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RE: weird raptures survey

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I´m not an expert of many traditions but I know about the tradition of kungfu/taichi I come from which is, like Abe Dunkelheit sais, very much inclined towards maintaining the body healthy and comfortable. Health is even more important than martial application or strength, though I know that there are many chinese schools who don´t think that way, which relates to hokai´s post. I am strongly against traditions that torture the body to gain something cause it is not in accord with the daoist concept of wuwei.
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RE: weird raptures survey

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With regards to "treating the body well," you aren't going to get a mass-market paperback on Taoism suggesting that you drink the urine of eleven year old girls, or burning mugwort on your skin, even though those are probably the most interesting parts.

With regards to "raptures", it's a useful category but there can be some confusion, at least with "rapture" as in a strange side-effect and "rapture" referring to the jhanic factor. I personally wish that the someone had figured out a way to attenuate some of these effects besides the advice just to keep practicing. From what I understand strong concentration or intention can intensify them.

With regards to my experiences, I have had a couple of the feeling very tall or flat, floating sensations, feeling upside down, and having the spine feel like it is being twisted without it moving. These seem like one-time events rather than recurring symptoms. More recently, I have had, while sitting, lots of shaking, bobbing of the head that gets very, very rapid, altered breathing, that "electric shocks" thing, severe muscle tension, heat, uncomfortable autonomous twisting of the spine, the spine straightening up, with great muscle tension, of its own accord. These generally seem to have diminished over time though then they recur viciously; these very rarely happen while walking.
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RE: weird raptures survey

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The past view days I´m suffering a really annoying cough that made my throat feel all sore. However, I found that the more concentrated and mindful I was of these sensations the less bodily pain they caused and now it is a very interesting object of meditation. I have read about someone who got cured of tuberculosis while doing insight practice in Sayadaw U Panditas "in this very Live". What do you think of this? Do you believe that serious illnesses can be cured by vipassana. I was sceptical until I got this cough.
Love to read from you,
Martin
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hi, Martin. Hope your throat gets better soon. As to healing, the efficiency of the cure will depend from the specific, primary cause. Energetic practice (plus all those procedures that improve, regulate and/or balance the flow of qi indirectly) will tend to improve the condition irrespective of the primary cause. But the symptoms may return if the cause is gross physical or else some sort of psychological (usually emotional). One of practices that may indeed open the restricted flow of qi is close application of attention. Shinzen Young has done some valuable work with pain and discomfort, so please consult his approach (I'm sending you links via message).
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RE: weird raptures survey

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I had some very unpleasant raptures on my first retreat. One was feeling like I just got off a 12 hour boat ride. I could feel the waves and the electromagnetic energy in them, but couldnt see them. I also could feel electromagnetic fields and different polarities at different distances and areas around my feet which interacted with the waves. For the last few days of the retreat, I had to change how I walked in meditation to keep my balance. It was quite interesting for an hour or two. Too much concentration not enough mindfullness. Feeling, Feeling, Feeling, Nausea, Nausea, Nausea, disliking, disliking, disliking,
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: buffduff

On my last Vipassana course (S.N. Goenka style), I experienced on the 8th day almost like there were 2 levels of subtle sensation on the body. The second, deeper version was vibrating 3-4x more rapidly (more like 18-20 htz that Ingram describes) and felt like an intense inward pressure, especially on the scull, as if I could feel the weight of the atmosphere keeping my body together. Painful and strange. Following this rapture I experienced a bodily bliss, deep deep equanimity, reduced sleep needs, etc. that night. Perhaps an A&P, but other evidence leads me to think probably 1st path/stream entry.

I don't know if strange body experiences count officially as rapture, but I've experienced several times, starting also on my last retreat, an experience of becoming very concentrated all of a sudden, where a vibrating that is normally present at the brow slows down or stops, and something seems to change in the visual field that's difficult to describe, and suddenly the sense of the body grows and grows for 30-90 seconds, culminating in a sense of the body as being infinitely huge, with the witness/"that which is meditating" being a small part, complete with sensations on the body and occassional thoughts continuing to arise. The first time was very frightening, and I had 3 such experiences last retreat. I also had one recently lying in bed. Each time it seems to shake the sense of a real, separate self, because the self as witness is such a tiny part of the experience.

Hope that is interesting to you! Whatever the experiences, weird or ordinary, the practice is the same. Note precisely what is occurring with equanimity. Best of luck in your practice.

~Duff
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RE: weird raptures survey

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My experiences with rapture have been varied as well. During my first 6 day retreat there was a lot of pressure just behind the nose which would come and go. Almost like someone blowing up a balloon behind the sinus cavities.

During a 14 day Mahasi style retreat this pressure spread to the whole face and would move around my entire head in an amoeba like fashion. Overall it was very pleasant. Once I started noting aggressively and it would generally pass. In one sitting I had experiences of what seemed like a palpable waves of force pushing my head back so that I was looking at the ceiling. It took physical effort to bring my head back and hold it in place.

When I moved into what I suspect was the Dark Night the raptures took a very different flavor. I would get waves of vibration in my whole head making me feel disoriented and nauseous to the point of feeling mild vertigo.

I’ve been on several retreats since my raptures have toned down. There has been one pleasant recurring one that I suspect is related to skimming the first Jhana without getting hard entry. I don't actively work towards Jhana practice it just comes up in Vipassana. It usually starts with subtle tingling in some part of the body. I truly know it's coming when there is a mild tingling in the genitals as Vince mentioned. Then at the end of an inbreath (always at the end) the tingling sensation propagates throughout the body in waves resembling a slow motion and very pleasant cold chill. If I focus on the pleasantness, the the tingling sensation re-propagates through the body in waves at the top of each inbreath mixing with the pleasant tingling of the leftover waves of the previous inbreath. Usually I’ll enjoy that for a few minutes, lose the ability to sustain it and go back to watching the breath.
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hi, I should introduce myself as this is my first post here. I'm David, from Melbourne, Australia. I've only been practicing Vipassana for 9 months. I've been to one 10-day retreat led by a western monk trained by U Pandita. Firstly, I'm really happy to have found this site. So thanks to Daniel for this work. I look forward to reading your book in the coming days.

I had some very intense raptures during my first retreat. By far the most powerful of these was a wavy sensation at the base of my spine. It was a bit like nausea but much more "energetic". This wave then moved up my spine and pushed to the front of my chest, face and arms like thousands of acupuncture needles pricking from the inside. This led to convulsions of my body. This happened twice on retreat and a few times in the ensuing weeks back home.

Here's the interesting part: At the time of the experience, I concluded that I was witnessing a panic attack in microscopic detail. I'd had a lengthy history of panic attacks, and although they'd subsided for a few years at this time, my teacher had indicated to me at the beginning of the retreat that I may well confront such attacks during practice. That, along with the convulsing (which is also symptomatic of panic attacks for me), convinced me that this was all there was to the experience.

It was only after I'd spoken to a psychologist about my recurring "panic" that she suggested I read something about kundalini. Then I got the idea that this and other "raptures" are common occurences for meditators. I now find it extremely strange that my retreat teacher confirmed my "panic attack" diagnosis after I reported the experience in detail to him. He was otherwise very helpful to me.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
I'm not sure if this qualifies as raptures but...

I've been working on concentration lately, since I discovered it wasn't quite up to par for good vipassana practice. For the last week or so, every time I sit I experience pretty radical body quakes and chilling sensations. I've been doing my best to stay with my breath until it passes. Once the sensations pass, though, I find it much harder to stay concentrated on the breath alone, and have begun to conjure up earlier life experiences in great detail, as well as some odd hallucinogenic experiences where I am being invited to follow a seemingly imaginary figure. I haven't mentally followed any of the figures, but instead do my best to refocus on my breath. They eventually pass.

The bodily sensations that precede these events are what interests me, because they always come before the visions/images. Is this normal? I'm trying not to get stuck on the images, but I don't usually have enough time to fully get passed them. This almost certainly due to the fact that I have not yet been on retreat.

(I hope that it is appropriate to place this post here. If this subject has been covered elsewhere in the wiki, please redirect me to the right place.)
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: AlanChapman

Sounds like some samatha jhana action to me, and I think you are adoptinng the correct approach in persisting with the samatha (after all, that is why you are sat there).

I don't know if this is a common occurrence, but when I first began serious meditation practice I would encounter shaking, quivering, heat, cold, strange sexual sensations, etc a great deal of the time; however, after some modest progress with insight, these symptoms appear to have abated some what.

The only symptoms that seem to have persisted are the feelings of bodily distortions (hands and feet the wrong way round, that kind of thing), a bit of ajna chakra stuff and REM activity (I seem to get a serving of REM with everything).

Last year (or was it the year before?) I had a recurring meditative event: a sphere would form out of the darkness behind my eyelids that was both immense and minute, and it would scare the crap out of me. Again, its intensity and frequency has diminished in direct proportion to my progress in insight too.

I think your post is a nice reminder that meditation throws up a lot of experiences that fall outside of the standard maps and models. I mean, what book on meditation would even tell you that you might have a few astral (yep, I’m using that word) visitors pop by, let alone how to deal with them? Actually, saying that now, isn’t there something about ‘devils’ or ‘demons’ popping up in Zen?
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hi Alan,
I really enjoy your threat about the three characteristics although I don´t feel qualified to add something.
As for
" I don't know if this is a common occurrence, but when I first began serious meditation practice I would encounter shaking, quivering, heat, cold, strange sexual sensations, etc a great deal of the time; however, after some modest progress with insight, these symptoms appear to have abated some what."
this is normal as far as I know. I have experienced these what Daniel mentions in his book,too. Another thing he shares is visions that fit quite well to your "astral visitors".
Lately I encounter more and more experiences that resemble your sphere behind the eyelids during vipassana practice. The reall creepy thing to me is not the fact that these are scary but the split between layers of what happens, that is: The sphere, the scariness and wether or not this induces suffering. All these layers seem to be disconnected from each other what has a really awkward no-self implication to it.
Interesting to read about your crazy experiences, love it!
Martin
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Alan,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I have also experienced a lot of REM during meditation, which usually preceded the quakes and visions. Since I first posted my reply to this thread I have been experiencing fewer quakes and hallucinations. Though I have been experiencing some minor scale body distortions. Yesterday (or perhaps the day before) my consciousness took on a quality of grounded, bodily 'knowing' (I don't know how else to describe it). For a moment my thinking mind felt the way that a cassette tape sounds when fast-forwarding - almost like white noise. A moment later I felt as though my head an neck started to contort off to the left. I could feel it in my bones. The funny thing is I knew that I was still sitting upright, it just felt like I was all twisted up. Weird.

You wrote, "I think your post is a nice reminder that meditation throws up a lot of experiences that fall outside of the standard maps and models." I have read many dharma books, and I agree with you. Most of the teachings on meditation that I encounter have more to do with love and acceptance of common inner-demons like anger, depression, sorrow, etc. I have only read a handful of contemporary texts that mention the bizarre experiences that one is almost certain to encounter with serious practice.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Jackson,

The odd experiences in concentration which you mention are familiar to me: quaking, heat and chilling, vertigious but non-nauseating spiralling, disproportion in limbs, images of objects, faces looking at me, and once, startlingly, a figure pointing at my nose and sniggering while I tried to concentrate on the breath emoticon In research about such experiences, I found some teachings by a Thai forst Master (Ven. Ajahn Fuang) - see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/fuang/itself.html#vision

As to the body sensations - I sometimes try to leave them alone by concentrating harder on the object, sometimes I switch to investigation at that point, depending on what I set out to do. I always "plan" my meditation beforehand: set a timer, and decide wheter to do pure concentration or concentration first and then insight.

Cheers,
Florian
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hello Florian,

Thank you very much for the link. Any insight in to these experiences will be helpful to my practice. I also appreciate you sharing your experiences with me.

I've also been making an effort to plan my meditation sessions, though I don't always stick to the plan! It's hard for me to stay focused as new experiences (usually odd ones) arise. I find myself thinking, "Whoa! What's going on here!" I hope that, with time, I will be able to go back to focusing on the object more easily. Thanks for the advice. It's helpful to know that others encounter these experiences and that they can be handled skillfully.

Jackson
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hello Jackson,
with practice you will certainly achieve the ability to refocus on the object when weird things occur. Personally, these things disappeared from my training after one week or so. They may also be influenced by the technique you are using. I felt that noting increased the intensity of shaking. To me they only occured doing vipassana, not samadhi but maybe it was the concenration-aspect that caused them although I think they are connected to the three characteristics.
Good day,
Martin
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Anytime I hear or read some description of a strange meditation experience, I hear my teacher saying, "that's just an energy release." That type of advice is very grounding.

In my own experience I had a lot of stranger, harder to categorize experiences when I started sitting formally, almost predominantly bodily sensations. Now I just get a lot of physical crap or subtle felt sensations and more recently mind-states.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 97 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hello Martin,

I have had a similar experience when doing noting practice. Though I am mostly working on concentration right now, the times that I have practiced noting were accompanied by shaking/tremors and some REM. The tremors have largely subsided now during my concentration practice (it only lasted a week or so, as with your experience) and some new territory is emerging. I'm not very experienced though, so I don't really know what to call it. More than anything it feels like some kind of deeper knowing -- a knowledge stemmed from bodily sensations rather than rational thought. This has been much more peaceful than the visions I was having. I assume this experience is good for concentration practice, since the knowing feels fairly solid or whole. It would be interesting to move into insight territory after stabling this state to notice the impermanence of it.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate the guidence I am receiving from you and the others.

Jackson
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Nice one. "That's a perception, just like everything else" is what I'm working from. Can't remember where I got it though.

Cheers,
Florian
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Hi,
grounding is an important topic because it requires equanimity. Raptures can really unground you but everytime this happened to me there would be another "rapture" grounding me again. Now I feel more equanimous towards them but somehow I don´t know if it is good to try to stay grounded intentionally. I think it is not too important as long as you percieve the three characteristics of being ungrounded. how are you all dealing with this?
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RE: weird raptures survey

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This thread, which has been going for awhile, contains some important observations, so thanks to everyone contributing so far. Though, we haven't really seen a working definition of "raptures"; given the title of the thread is "weird raptures survey", the more common experiences of augmented bodily awareness and shifts in perception of environment should be excluded, being neither weird nor rapture. I guess this thread allows for all sorts of "kriya"-type experiences but also purely mental phenomena, which seems too general, similar to discussing all entheogens, or all altered states, in a single thread.

Then, it seems the diverse experiences being mentioned here are universally posited as opposed to an arbitrary baseline. It seems we need to distinguish between idiosyncratic events and more universal experiences, in that some happen as a result of individual physiology and subtle contractions or lack thereof, while other happen to everyone at some point; also, some experiences are frequent with certain methods of meditation, especially visualizations and esoteric methods, while absent with other methods; also observing how these relate to intensity and frequency of practice plus other daily activities; and then which might be considered pathological, and which can be taken as a sign of progress at certain points (and with certain methods of meditation).

Finally, there's a question what wisdom lay hidden by these experiences, and what wisdom is revealed through them. Do any of these phenomena mean anything? Should they? The profound instruction is not to indulge, but simultaneously not to suppress, condemn or avoid in any way the unfolding of that dimension which is neither the conventional world of linear time and limited space, nor it's rejection. Although soberness and detachment are useful, not all experiences and perceptions are the same, and not all equally "just objects". Any thoughts?
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RE: weird raptures survey

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Wow, great points Hokai! I guess a clear definition of "rapture" would be very helpful. For me, raptures are just really out of the ordinary experiences but I might be wrong, considering the fact that some of the posted ones really are not so much of an extraordinary thing in communities like the D.O. (e.g. body twists, disproportional perception,...).
My motivation for creating this threat was to have a space where people can post what they feel is something extraordinary, because I remember having felt the desire to talk about these when they occured to me.
I really like your question if wisdomis being revealed by raptures! Well at least now would it be usefull to have a clear definition of what is counted in under this term but if things as A&Ps are, then there would be the question whether or not raptures are what wisdom is ultimately being revealed by. Wisdom is the perspective towards experiences and not experiences in or of themselves but everybody has to cross the A&P in order to reach fruition, so is it the experience that brings about the shift in perspective or vice versa or both or...this is an interesting topic. Is there any research being done in this area? I mean, is it recorded what happens in the brain of a meditator reaching nibbana or having an A&P?
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RE: weird raptures survey

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My own interest is in attenuating some of this crap. Kriya and kundalini effects make for a wild ride, and some of it is exteremely unpleasant--I actually hurt my back during a sitting session courtesy of some of this crap, and had to move to a backed chair and blankets for the remainder of the week. It's clear that a lot of this "means" something, but it's not clear to me if that "something" matters.

That said, I've found many of the energetic and more gross physical effects make for good objects since they are both very prominent and very fast.

Comparing these with states that arise with some persistence like short-lived, unintended absorbtions, or anxiety, fear or the sense of dissolution, though, is hard, possibly because those things can arise outside of the insight cycle, too. I'm not sure I've addressed any of those questions.
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RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi everybody,
last night I had a strange thing happen to me that I´d like to share. Before sleeping and during wake times at night I practice vipassana, recently I find myself doing it while sleeping more often than in the past. So I had some kind of lucid dream in which I was practicing as I suddenly shifted into a waking state. The sense of a body was kind of weird and it began to move without any intention being percieved. This was kind of the weirdest aspect of the experience because I was doing solid practice being really aware and percieving fast vibrations but intentions preceding movements were absent. I tried to intervene actively without any results.
Today during my second sit I found my concentration and mindfulness being very sharp and my body felt like a cloud of electric impulses ( as well as the other senses ). Everything seems to be throughn together into a flavourless soup of suchness and it´s difficult to distinguish between sense doors.
I guess this could be a taste of equanimitybut I´m not sure.
Maybe the lack of intention is just the sense of sensations making up intention being just the same as everything else. It´s a really weird thing to experience.
What do you think about it?
Best wishes,
Martin
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Martin

While I'm definitely no expert on these experiences (I'm fairly familiar with most of the first three stages, and that's it), judging from the maps it seems that the arising and passing away stages are easily confused with equanimity, and one reason that may be so are the so-called "corruptions of insight". Note that meditation dreams and out-of-body experiences seem to occur in the arising and passing away stage. Again, this is fairly academic for me - I've had some interesting meditation dreams, but nothing like the kind of high-resolution awareness you experienced.

Maybe your dream was an OOB experience, and that's why your awareness was so unusual (missing body might be interpreted as "no intentions before movement"?)

Daniel posted a link to a fairly sober out-of-body "manual" recently at the Baptist's Head: http://www.acadiacom.net/studynet/contents.html

It's encouraging to hear of your progress, keep up the practice!

Cheers,
Florian
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Thanks for your take on this, Florian!
I can definately find aspects that point to the a&p-stage, especially an increased speed ant subtlety of vibrations and concentration. Your comment about the out of body experience is really interesting, too. I don´t think it was one because there was a sense of a body (an awkward one though) but I cannot say this with certainty. I increased my time practicing the last days and can feel a rather dramatic improvement which seems to persist for now. Maybe this is the process leading to an a&p event? I love the maps but I can´t say where I´m at so I´m greatful to have you guys posting comments. I try to keep up my intensified training to see where it leads me to.
Thanks and best wishes,
Martin
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
Agree with MonkeyMind. Sounds to me too like a classic OOBE. Sounds like you left behind the 'physical body' and were working with your etheric body. I'm a big fan of Rudolf Steiner, who sees a correspondence between 'will', 'feelings', 'thought' and the 'physical', 'etheric' and 'astral' bodies. There was no perception of 'intention' in your experience because the physical body is the seat of 'will', and you had slipped into the etheric. I did some Googling, and the following link is a little flaky in parts, but throws out some interesting suggestions in the light of your experience:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/subtlebody/etherictemplate.html

In Buddhist terminology there is a similar concept of three bodies: 'nirmanakaya', 'sambhogakaya' and 'dharmakaya'. You might find it helpful to look into these, in order to provide a frame of reference for your experience. However, in my experience these terms DO NOT map neatly onto 'physical', 'astral' and 'etheric'!

Sounds like you're doing great work and making loads of progress! :-)
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Duncan,
thanks a lot for your post! Your points make a lot of sense so it might have been an oobe. I think this is caused by concentration rather than insight (?) because I have been emphasizing the concentration aspect during vipassana. Thanks for the link, too. I´ll check it out.
Things changed again. I´ve slowed down a bit and I seem to space out more than before. Objects seem quite physical and it takes a bit more effort to stay at the experiencial level but I don´t think it´s dark night related. Guess I just have to push further in order to know.
Anyway, thank you very much and best wishes,
Martin
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: weird raptures survey

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: bboyYen

Alright, so some time ago, maybe like a few weeks or maybe just one week (or less) or two ago.

I was trying vipassana meditation the Mogok Sayadaw way. So everything in my vision was "seeing consciousness" I did so well I became incredibly high (I've never been high before, at least not off drugs that I can recall, I have taken anti-depressants though) anyways it was quite amazing and I was riding in the car at the time.

I was afraid however that due to attachment I might crash and burn and perhaps I induced it, the next thing I know in my concept thinking, since everything in visual consciousness was so high, to see everything in visual consciousness became horrifying.

So even looking at a building a distance, it looked very very... normal, plain, disentegrating? Anyways that's the crash and burn nature of my rapture.

I felt so unsafe, kind of like, my body was hollow, had to control my self.

Perhaps it was just the nature of my fear.

w..e word.