Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Practices Inspired by Actualism

Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder

Toggle
Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/8/10 5:43 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder rich s 9/8/10 3:47 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/8/10 5:46 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder rich s 9/8/10 6:50 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/9/10 5:09 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder My Fragile Ego 9/8/10 10:30 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/9/10 5:28 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder My Fragile Ego 9/12/10 4:45 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/12/10 1:11 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Ram Ravan 9/8/10 11:49 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/9/10 5:49 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Steph S 9/10/10 3:33 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder mico mico 9/12/10 5:18 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/12/10 12:37 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Luciano de Noeme Imoto 9/9/10 10:30 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Trent . 9/9/10 5:57 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Luciano de Noeme Imoto 9/10/10 9:50 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Alex Kyosti 9/9/10 7:39 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder ManZ A 9/10/10 12:47 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Christian Ballhaus 10/5/10 11:08 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder #1 - 0 2/11/11 7:06 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Bruno Loff 2/12/11 9:42 AM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 2/12/11 1:23 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder #1 - 0 12/25/11 1:48 PM
RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder Andrew . 5/8/12 12:50 AM
Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 5:43 PM
Hello DhO,

This is a brief essay I wrote a couple of weeks ago about the topic of wonder. This is mostly a response to recognizing that 'I' never really fully understood wonder in this context (even conceptually) until reflecting on it after attaining AF, despite sincere efforts to do so. This is, essentially, the essay I think would have cleared things up for 'me,' which I decided to write and share for others' benefit. I recommend reading it a couple of times, and as carefully as possible; otherwise, I suspect much would be lost. And finally, I welcome any questions, as although the original draft was peer reviewed and shored up in many ways, there may still be confusion even if I was successful in communicating what I intended.

[Minor edits for grammar], [Edits mentioned in below posts]


Enjoy,
Trent

----------------------------------

Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder

The epitome of wonder is experienced when ‘I’ realize that I am unknown; that ‘I’ do not have the answers. ’I’ do not know this, the actual world... ‘I’ am always only a foreigner attempting to sneak a peek ‘outside,’ only to recoil in horror at the sight of the perfection ‘I’ am so obviously lacking. In a sense, the realization of one’s anonymity is itself an answer to the question: what does it mean to be fully alive?

Upon personally experiencing this answer, life becomes inherently wonder-full and engaging. As one’s experience is no longer riddled with petty presuppositions about what it means to be alive, one is open—fully open—to sensuously experiencing and intelligently learning about that very thing.

The ability of the intellect to recognize order within chaos (as opposed to the identity’s attempt to a create personal order with which to gild over chaos) becomes a simple, pleasurable and effortless exercise. It is in this statement that we may come to notice something quaintly counter-intuitive...by accepting and embracing chaos (that is, accepting that one does not know what will come next; by accepting that one is also part of that chaos) one may come to clearly recognize order. For how else could it be done? Surely it is impossible to consistently or accurately recognize order when one cannot even clearly experience what is unordered…But to understand this clearly, perhaps it is necessary to take a step back.

The universe, without the aid of the human intellect, is materially the same as it is with the aid of the human intellect, but it is simply not known to be that way, or any way for that matter. A stone may be a stone, but without the intellect, there is no ability to identify or define the patterns indicative of “a stone.” Without the pattern recognizing and categorizing functions of the intellect, there is simply chaos, in the sense of the definition which states chaos as “what is unordered,” and not in the sense of “aggression” or “violence” (which are connotations commonly associated with the word). The experience of life for an unintelligent animal is essentially chaotic, in that there is no means by which to create knowledge, recognize patterns in, communicate about, categorize, reflect upon, or apply value to the sense-datum experienced. And it makes sense that this is so—for if pre-intelligent experience were not this way, the intellect would be a redundant faculty of the brain; all would already be known and understood and there would be nothing to (re)cognize, no questions to ask, and no wonder at all.

It is the meeting of this virginal chaos (a rock yet to be defined or recognized)—the world directly experienced via the unfiltered senses—with the ordering capacity of the intellect (a capacity only found to this degree in humans) which enables the linguistic articulation of the order of the universe which always already existed (the rock as such, now also defined and recognized as such). The apperceptive, (direct, unfiltered, seamless) simultaneous experience of this complimentary interaction between chaotic sense-datum and the ordering functions of the intellect engenders the never ending experience of delightful patterns of sensations which have been named: wonder. Wonder, it seems, is the default state of the unrestrained intellect, as one may well notice while experiencing a PCE, or after having achieved freedom from the human condition.

This wonder I speak of is not of the same meager intensity ‘I’ experienced while ‘normal,’ nor when ‘I’ was ‘enlightened’, but is of an entirely new level. It is as though one is perpetually questioning all things sensed and experienced and also answering all of those questions in some sort of elegant (and mostly subconscious) ‘dance duet’. It is as though one’s mind is always on the “edge of its seat.” And this scintillating, peerless, wonderful awareness is just part of what it means to be fully alive!

It is as a result of this wonder-full awareness that one may find one’s day to day dealings increasingly dominated by question, rather than by statement. (This seems to be a reflection of the intellect’s fundamental function, viewed at a macro level rather than a micro level). One’s interaction with other people shifts from judgment, accusation and wild-eyed guessing to one of sensitive acceptance and gentle (although often quite persistent) questioning. Further, I find that the majority of my conscious thought is phrased in the form of a question…I see no more effective approach than that with which to preface action or opinion, and I rarely have the need to repeat conclusions which were previously arrived at (unless such a conclusion be the very topic in question). And this statement allows me to reveal yet another counter-intuitive twist: these instances of conclusion-questioning also seem to consistently lessen-- especially if no new contradictory information becomes available-- as things are quite straight forward when one dwells where delusion can find no hold. (And yet, the wonder does not diminish, as it's cause is perpetually unperturbed ). To state this point bluntly: wonder has not a thing to do with material ignorance, mystery or insensibility.

This brings me to my final point, one which has only been implied until now: if one is not experiencing wonder, one must figure out why that is the case. Because wonder is an inherent, unceasing quality of the unclouded intellect, one can be sure that the identity is muddying one’s sagacity if it is not consistently present to one's experience of being alive. In other words, if one is not consistently experiencing wonder, one can be sure that there is work left to be done; and this is-- in and of itself-- a vital clue.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 3:47 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Trent, you say:

Chaos is a fundamental characteristic of the actual, objective universe when the intellect is absent or unapplied.


and:

by accepting and embracing chaos (that is, accepting that one does not know what will come next; by accepting that one is also part of that chaos) one may come to clearly recognize order.


and:

The apperceptive, (direct, unfiltered, seamless) simultaneous experience of this complimentary interaction between chaos and order engenders the never ending experience of delightful patterns of sensations which have been named: wonder.


Now, for comparison, Richard says:

RICHARD: There is no ‘chaos’ and ‘order’ as a sub-stratum of the universe ... they are but human inventions and do not exist in actuality. The same applies to fairness/unfairness, justice/injustice and any other human concepts that, whilst being useful for human-to-human interaction, are futility in action when applied to the universe. Male logic is as useless as female intuition when it comes to being free: the everyday reality of the ‘real-world’ is a veneer ‘I’ paste over the top of the pristine actual world by ‘my’ very being ... and ‘being’ is the savage/tender instinctual passions (giving rise to feelings of malice/love and sorrow/compassion etc., with the resultant concepts of bad/good and evil/god and so on) which cripples intelligence by invariably producing dualistic concepts.

‘Tis all a fantasy ... feelings rule in the human world.

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listbcorrespondence/listb33c.htm#03Aug00

and:

RESPONDENT: Well I keep doing my little petty Dutch peasant dance and keep on singing silly songs, as I’m safely and sound locked in this somewhat chaotic universe ...
RICHARD: If I may interject? What ‘chaotic universe’ are you referring to? This material universe, the only one there is in actuality, having no opposite, no other, is peerless, beyond compare ... pure and perfect (there is no chaos, no disorder here).

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-peace2.htm

Please explain this discrepancy. I am reading what appear to be two contradictory discriptions of the actual world. Thank you.

Rich

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 5:46 PM as a reply to rich s.
Hello Rich,

Note that the definitions I use below are from dictionary.com.

rich s:
Please explain this discrepancy. I am reading what appear to be two contradictory discriptions of the actual world.


First, note the context (emphasis [bold type] added):

No.33:
RESPONDENT: I don’t understand what you exactly are you trying to get at. If you assert that ‘peace on earth’ is a condition that has always prevailed, then whatever is categorized under malice and sorrow is also a manifestation of that peace on earth.


To which Richard responded (emphasis [bold type] added):

Richard:
RICHARD: There is no ‘chaos’ and ‘order’ as a sub-stratum of the universe ... they are but human inventions and do not exist in actuality. (...)


Given the context, I presume Richard's usage of the words "chaos" and "order" are entirely different than the usage I have used above. The "chaos" referred to by him may be (and I infer this given his modifier "sub-stratum of the universe[1]") "the infinity of space or formless matter supposed to have preceded the existence of the ordered universe," in which case, that is not at all what I am referring to. Instead, however, he may be denying "a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order" in reference to the condition of this actual material universe, (and I agree). To contrast, I am speaking of "a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order" as it pertains to human cognition. Which is to say that, without human intelligence, there would be no ability to create, recognize, or categorize information ("order").

*

Trent:
Chaos is a fundamental characteristic of the actual, objective universe when the intellect is absent or unapplied.


I have edited my sentence because I realized (due to your response) that it was inarticulate to a degree that it was (obviously) not communicating what I had intended. The section (changed portions in bold type) will now read:

Trent:
The experience of life for an unintelligent animal is essentially chaotic, in that there is no means by which to create knowledge, recognize patterns in, communicate about, categorize, reflect upon, or apply value to the sense-datum experienced. And it makes sense that this is so—for if pre-intelligent experience were not this way, the intellect would be a redundant faculty of the brain; all would already be known and understood and there would be nothing to (re)cognize, no questions to ask, and no wonder at all.


(Note that animals, regardless of whether they're intelligent or not, are actual, hence the wording of my original (confusing) statement).

*

Trent:
The apperceptive, (direct, unfiltered, seamless) simultaneous experience of this complimentary interaction between chaos and order engenders the never ending experience of delightful patterns of sensations which have been named: wonder.


This has been edited for clarification, as follows:

Trent:
The apperceptive, (direct, unfiltered, seamless) simultaneous experience of this complimentary interaction between chaotic sense-datum and the ordering functions of the intellect engenders the never ending experience of delightful patterns of sensations which have been named: wonder.


By the way, I thought long and hard about using those two words (order, chaos), as I realized (and was told by others) that they're easily misunderstood (and quite a pain to write with), especially given the subject matter. However, I do think that they fit best and so I went ahead and used them them.

With all that said...has this resolved the discrepancies?

Thanks for your feedback,
Trent

[1]
1.something that is spread or laid under something else; a stratum or layer lying under another.
2. Philosophy . substance, considered as that which supports accidents or attributes.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 6:50 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Thank you for your response. I will digest all you've written in your essay and in your follow-up clarifications and attempt to work through all the "chaos" and "disorder" occuring presently in my brain (but no ultimate, objective chaos/disorder is actually occurring anywhere at all outside of my brain in this physical material universe, correct? And how does "order" fit into the material universe, though, when you take out the human?) over these next couple days-or-so to such extent so as to be able to move on to digesting and making use of the ultimate and most beneficial point of your essay ... the fostering of wonderment.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 10:30 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Hi Trent

Thanks for writing this article, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and while I understood what you meant by chaos and order, your clarifications were useful to reinforce that. I have a few questions relating to if/how this essay can help one to attain Actual Freedom.

Trent H.:
This is mostly a response to recognizing that 'I' never really fully understood wonder in this context (even conceptually) until reflecting on it after attaining AF


Trent H.:
This is, essentially, the essay I think would have cleared things up for 'me


I am wondering if your latter comment is specifically related to clearing things up regarding the topic of wonder per se, or if you meant that statement in a broader sense e.g. that contemplating wonder or attempting to experience wonder 24/7 could be the key to attaining AF?

Trent H.:
This brings me to my final point, one which has only been implied until now: if one is not experiencing wonder, one must figure out why that is the case. Because wonder is an inherent, unceasing quality of the unclouded intellect, one can be sure that the identity is muddying one’s sagacity if it is not consistently present to one's experience of being alive. In other words, if one is not consistently experiencing wonder, one can be sure that there is work left to be done; and this is-- in and of itself-- a vital clue.


I'd be very interested if you could expand upon the work to be done that you think was key to attaining AF - unless you have already written on the topic elsewhere? I realise that such a topic may not have been your intention in writing this essay, so I could move this to another thread if you prefer.

At the end, do you think that an act of altruistic self-immolation was key to you attaining AF? Or was it sufficient to use pointers such as "Am I experiencing a PCE?" or "Am I experiencing wonder?" and then getting back to the PCE and to wonder as much as possible (and perhaps if an act of altruistic self-immolation occurred, it just happened of it's own accord?)

Thanks
Craig
[Edited to correct quote formatting]

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/8/10 11:49 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Great Topic to go into. Much appreciated. I am trying to get this feeling of sensuous wonderfulness up and running and often struggled with it. what is the real cause of wonder?

Trent H.:


<snip>
. It is as though one is perpetually questioning all things sensed and experienced and also answering all of those questions in some sort of elegant (and mostly subconscious) ‘dance duet’. It is as though one’s mind is always on the “edge of its seat.”


Can you sprinkle few live examples please? For eg when you look at a rainbow or a cup of tea .. (or whatever that seems fit to you) how do you explain the above lines of yours - namely the dance duet. What exactly happens. Is it .. Oh what is that .. aaaha ..that's a rainbow and wonder ensues? That doesn't seem right. So please do elucidate.

Trent H.:

One’s interaction with other people shifts from judgment, accusation and wild-eyed guessing to one of sensitive acceptance and gentle (although often quite persistent) questioning.


Again, perhaps an life example from say with your partner would help here.


Trent H.:

Further, I find that the majority of my conscious thought is phrased in the form of a question


Example please!

I would like to understand it (cause of wonder and how of it) before i venture into the clue that your last para presents.

Cheers!
Ram

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 10:30 AM as a reply to Trent ..
I'm sure many of you are familiar with Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book, "The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference."
Trent, thanks fella!
Luciano

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 5:09 PM as a reply to rich s.
rich s:
Thank you for your response. I will digest all you've written in your essay and in your follow-up clarifications and attempt to work through all the "chaos" and "disorder" occuring presently in my brain (but no ultimate, objective chaos/disorder is actually occurring anywhere at all outside of my brain in this physical material universe, correct? And how does "order" fit into the material universe, though, when you take out the human?) over these next couple days-or-so to such extent so as to be able to move on to digesting and making use of the ultimate and most beneficial point of your essay ... the fostering of wonderment.


Correct...and as for your second question, Richard's response (which you linked above) is succinct and accurate.

And indeed, if you (or anyone else) is having trouble with the particulars, I would not spend too much time worrying about it. I made sure to spell out the important points as bluntly and plainly as possible, so at least those are available for consideration.

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 5:28 PM as a reply to My Fragile Ego.
Craig N:
Hi Trent

Thanks for writing this article, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and while I understood what you meant by chaos and order, your clarifications were useful to reinforce that. I have a few questions relating to if/how this essay can help one to attain Actual Freedom.


Hello. You're certainly welcome, I am pleased to hear that it made sense.

Craig N:
Trent H.:
This is mostly a response to recognizing that 'I' never really fully understood wonder in this context (even conceptually) until reflecting on it after attaining AF


Trent H.:
This is, essentially, the essay I think would have cleared things up for 'me


I am wondering if your latter comment is specifically related to clearing things up regarding the topic of wonder per se, or if you meant that statement in a broader sense e.g. that contemplating wonder or attempting to experience wonder 24/7 could be the key to attaining AF?


It is both, actually. The former is nice simply for one's own knowledge (to understand, intellectually, the workings of wonder). And the former also may enable the latter (understanding it well, one is likely better able to enable an experience of it and / or sustain it for longer; perhaps to the point where one becomes so lost in it that one self-immolates).

Trent H.:
I'd be very interested if you could expand upon the work to be done that you think was key to attaining AF - unless you have already written on the topic elsewhere? I realise that such a topic may not have been your intention in writing this essay, so I could move this to another thread if you prefer.


Noted, although many of those things are simply not remembered very well, and so I will probably not write about it in the way I think you're asking for. In this case, something prompted me to think about this topic, which reminded me of 'my' related difficulties, and so I wrote this and shared it. If I am reminded of similar things, that which do not seem to be covered elsewhere or in a manner I think appropriate, then perhaps more of these will crop up.

Craig N:
At the end, do you think that an act of altruistic self-immolation was key to you attaining AF? Or was it sufficient to use pointers such as "Am I experiencing a PCE?" or "Am I experiencing wonder?" and then getting back to the PCE and to wonder as much as possible (and perhaps if an act of altruistic self-immolation occurred, it just happened of it's own accord?)


The term self-immolation as I understand it is the act of attaining an AF (the pivotal moment 'I' and 'me' disappear for good), and it is altruistic by definition (being the opposite of selfish). With that said, I'm not really sure what you're asking. Care to clarify?

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 5:49 PM as a reply to Ram Ravan.
Hello,

Ram Ravan:
Trent H.:

<snip>
. It is as though one is perpetually questioning all things sensed and experienced and also answering all of those questions in some sort of elegant (and mostly subconscious) ‘dance duet’. It is as though one’s mind is always on the “edge of its seat.”


Can you sprinkle few live examples please? For eg when you look at a rainbow or a cup of tea .. (or whatever that seems fit to you) how do you explain the above lines of yours - namely the dance duet. What exactly happens. Is it .. Oh what is that .. aaaha ..that's a rainbow and wonder ensues? That doesn't seem right. So please do elucidate.


I am speaking figuratively in the quoted section ("it is as though") in an attempt to relate the experience of perpetually experiencing wonder to the "normal" experience of wonder, which is typically prefaced by some sort of condition (such as a question). Your questions seem to hint that you are interpreting it literally...

Ram Ravan:
Trent H.:

One’s interaction with other people shifts from judgment, accusation and wild-eyed guessing to one of sensitive acceptance and gentle (although often quite persistent) questioning.


Again, perhaps an life example from say with your partner would help here.


Well, this is not a specific example, but it is a bit more detailed: I use to try to guess or play mind reading games with my partner, suspecting that I knew what she was thinking, feeling, intending, etc; and then acting based on those guesses (sometimes in a way that was not supportive or kind). (How complicated it is when two people are doing this...) And now, I simply ask a question if I suspect something or wonder about something, and I always accept her answer, regardless of the content, (I do not become angry or withdrawn or insecure or anything else).


Ram Ravan:
Trent H.:

Further, I find that the majority of my conscious thought is phrased in the form of a question


Example please!


"I wonder why he is asking for so many examples? What is the purpose? Will it help? Where is he in his practice?"

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 5:57 PM as a reply to Luciano de Noeme Imoto.
Luciano de Noeme Imoto:
I'm sure many of you are familiar with Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book, "The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference."
Trent, thanks fella!
Luciano


Hi,

No problem, you're welcome.

I wonder, what was your intent in referencing that particular book? I read it last year and although it was excellent in some ways, I'm failing to see how it is relevant (since the "little things (that) can make a big difference" was in reference to sociological phenomena). You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to of course, but there may be merit in examining your intent.

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/9/10 7:39 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Trent,

This essay has evoked a world of forgotten experience.

Thank you for pointing the way back there.

Alex

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/10/10 12:47 AM as a reply to Trent ..
Hi,

Great essay Trent! Something chimed from just reading it and I recalled having some experiences like the one you describe involving "wonder-full awareness" and its effects. Maybe I can try to recall these experiences or remember them in order to further cultivate felicitous feelings yes?

Thanks!

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/10/10 9:50 AM as a reply to Trent ..
My pleasure, Trent!
The (pure) intent is simple: after some efforts, we achieve that "point of no return".* Like an orgasm... and that "out from control" virtual freedom. And your essays could help in this task.

Luciano

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_no_return

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/10/10 3:33 PM as a reply to Trent ..
Trent H.:
Hello,

Ram Ravan:
Trent H.:

<snip>
. It is as though one is perpetually questioning all things sensed and experienced and also answering all of those questions in some sort of elegant (and mostly subconscious) ‘dance duet’. It is as though one’s mind is always on the “edge of its seat.”


Can you sprinkle few live examples please? For eg when you look at a rainbow or a cup of tea .. (or whatever that seems fit to you) how do you explain the above lines of yours - namely the dance duet. What exactly happens. Is it .. Oh what is that .. aaaha ..that's a rainbow and wonder ensues? That doesn't seem right. So please do elucidate.


I am speaking figuratively in the quoted section ("it is as though") in an attempt to relate the experience of perpetually experiencing wonder to the "normal" experience of wonder, which is typically prefaced by some sort of condition (such as a question). Your questions seem to hint that you are interpreting it literally...

Trent


Hiya Trent,

Is what you're referring to the sense of newness in experiencing? For example, although it may appear parts of my weekday are routine.. driving to work, going to the office.. each time I go about these activities there are countless different phenomena and situations that are different than the last time I was in the very same place. Going for a walk on the same route on my lunch break, the breeze will feel a certain way, there will be different people walking around, a certain scent will arise while walking past a floral bush. It's all enjoyable and doesn't feel routine at all. There isn't a conscious act of questioning what is seen or felt.. it just is so.

Steph

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/12/10 4:45 AM as a reply to Trent ..
Trent H.:
The term self-immolation as I understand it is the act of attaining an AF (the pivotal moment 'I' and 'me' disappear for good), and it is altruistic by definition (being the opposite of selfish). With that said, I'm not really sure what you're asking. Care to clarify?

Trent


Hi Trent

Thanks for your replies. What I was getting at here is trying to understand what it takes to self-immolate? Is it something that just happens as a result of the practice one is doing, or is it something that clicks into place or a decision that is made - like a self-sacrifice?

I hesitated to reply because I wonder if the desire for an answer to this question is a kind of actualist version of insight disease - wanting to know how to do it, even though I'm not experiencing a PCE 24/7 and I could just keep doing that.

I wonder if a desire for a key or an answer or "the secret" to AF (that I do not currently possess) is just misguided or even laziness and avoiding doing the hard yards of putting the actualism method (as already understood) into practice.

Craig

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/12/10 5:18 AM as a reply to Steph S.
Steph S:
Is what you're referring to the sense of newness in experiencing? For example, although it may appear parts of my weekday are routine.. driving to work, going to the office.. each time I go about these activities there are countless different phenomena and situations that are different than the last time I was in the very same place. Going for a walk on the same route on my lunch break, the breeze will feel a certain way, there will be different people walking around, a certain scent will arise while walking past a floral bush.

Does the experience have to be different (from what?) for the experience to be new?

The routines you describe are descriptions, not experiences.

Yes, you can notice increasing detail as to why your 'routine' experience could not be identical to the 'last time', and it would be a shame to miss that. But it's the experience that is new (even if it seems identical to a memory) and the memory that is old.

Perhaps it is predominantly the experiencer that feels routine, but you may notice that that too is freshly constructed.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/12/10 12:37 PM as a reply to Steph S.
Steph S:

Hiya Trent,

Is what you're referring to the sense of newness in experiencing? For example, although it may appear parts of my weekday are routine.. driving to work, going to the office.. each time I go about these activities there are countless different phenomena and situations that are different than the last time I was in the very same place. Going for a walk on the same route on my lunch break, the breeze will feel a certain way, there will be different people walking around, a certain scent will arise while walking past a floral bush. It's all enjoyable and doesn't feel routine at all. There isn't a conscious act of questioning what is seen or felt.. it just is so.


Hi ya,

No, although they often are experienced at the same time or may trigger each other (wonder may lead to intimate engagement with the senses or intimate engagement with the senses may lead to wonder). I think what you are speaking of would be better called a generally increased sensuousness, or something along those lines.

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
9/12/10 1:11 PM as a reply to My Fragile Ego.
Craig N:
Hi Trent

Thanks for your replies. What I was getting at here is trying to understand what it takes to self-immolate? Is it something that just happens as a result of the practice one is doing, or is it something that clicks into place or a decision that is made - like a self-sacrifice?

I hesitated to reply because I wonder if the desire for an answer to this question is a kind of actualist version of insight disease - wanting to know how to do it, even though I'm not experiencing a PCE 24/7 and I could just keep doing that.

I wonder if a desire for a key or an answer or "the secret" to AF (that I do not currently possess) is just misguided or even laziness and avoiding doing the hard yards of putting the actualism method (as already understood) into practice.


Hello,

You're welcome, my pleasure.

I think of it as being a result of both (since any pivotal decision or realization is also part of the practice one is doing), although I think opinion may differ on that. In any case, it'll take a focused, intentional, sincere, and altruistic decision to finish the thing (likely many of those, in fact). Worth noting that the veil becomes so thin near the end that there is hardly even an 'I' sense, so the way one may try to imagine / guess at it prior to that time will probably be a lot different than how it actually plays out.

It may be a bit misguided...hard to say for certain. Personally, 'I' was a bit obsessed with it too and it did get in the way. I eventually had to sit myself down and say "look, it just doesn't matter, just keep going until it's impossible to go further, that's all you can do."

Trent

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
10/5/10 11:08 AM as a reply to Trent ..
Great, great Read. Thanks Trent.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
2/11/11 7:06 PM as a reply to Christian Ballhaus.
EXCELLENT read!! Brilliant! emoticon Thanks Trent!

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
2/12/11 9:42 AM as a reply to #1 - 0.
Hmm, I think that after re-reading this essay, I finally understood what HAIETMOBA experientially corresponds to. Got me into EE/PCE territory within minutes.

Really terrific Trent, thanks.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
2/12/11 1:23 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Yea this is some good shit. Reflecting on it helps to activate that sense of wonder.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
12/25/11 1:48 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
BUMP


Edit: Could one of the mods sticky this? This is IMO the best non-AFtrust article so far.
also, the Hurricane Ranch discussions are top notch, those should always remain at the top.

RE: Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder
Answer
5/8/12 12:50 AM as a reply to #1 - 0.
Could this be otherwise put, 'attention to the bodymind's ability wonder?'