Author: telecaster
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

About 30 years ago after energetically practicing moment to moment awareness I had a few subtle insights most of which are impossible to describe but I'll try --
I could see that my idea of a permanent separate self or personality was not quite true, that it was kind of a fantasy created by thoughts (this didn't bring any peace or significant life change that I can see - just confusion really)

I could see that thoughts were just these empty things and nothing more and that they had nothing much to do with what was really going on in reality even though myself and most others live as if they are real

I could see that an understanding about what was really going on was related to sometimes but ultimately separate from religion, spirituality, books, rituals, robes, spiritual status, etc. (I think a lot of people think zen, vipassana, buddhism, etc, IS the truth)

I could see that everything ends and I surmised that someday there would no longer be Buddhism, Christianity, etc. and that someday there would be no entity left in the universe that had ever heard of such things.

IHowever, this has mostly faded (with revivals from time to time in which I would practice strenously and go to various zen and insight day long retreats) but I've spent a lot of time not practicing meditation, awareness (and engaging in various compulsive/addictive behaviors) But, I do remember when all of this was strong with a kind of longing nostalgia.

Lately after looking over the enlightenment "maps" I've wondered if I ever entered any stage of any map, you know? I NEVER had any profoundly dramatic experiences, just subtle insights here and there. But, I'm always looking around and thinking and deciding to start practicing more formaly because i know there is fruit to be had.

Does it seem like I ever got anywhere significant, or just scratched the surface?

Author: garyrh

Can you remember your motivation for starting and stopping?

An perhaps of more significance what motivates you now to look around this site?
This will possible help members in answering your question.

Could have been Stage 1: Mind & Body...

"Through concentrated attention (mindfulness) he knows how to distinguish each bodily and mental process: 'The rising is one process, the knowing of it is another; the falling is one process, the knowing of it is another.'" (Mahasi Sayadaw, Practical Insight Meditation)

Recognizing that mental objects as well as physical objects are both just objects is key to the Mind & Body stage.

The important question is: what are you experiencing in your practice lately?

~Jackson

Author: telecaster

Thanks.
I'm a typical busy 52 year old. Two teenage kids, two ex and one current wife, a three to four hour commute each day from Modesto to San Francisco (I go by motorcyle). But still, given that, I'm now committed to practising and getting as far along as I can. I'm getting my concentration back up so I can be aware through out the day and I'll do sitting meditation when I can and go on retreats when I can.
why did I stop before? Not sure, but I know that I never took it all completely seriously, it was like I'd read material on insight meditation (and a LOT of Krishnramurti) and then try different things to see if I could change/improve my perception of the world and my thoughts and feelings. It was like playing around with my brain using insight techniques was my hobby or something. So, I often lost interest as other passions came along. But, what I know and experienced is ALWAYS with me, nagging at me to come back and go deeper.
My movtivation now is to really see the truth of things.
Right now I am particarly interested in emptiness. I think I understood it before but over the last couple of days I'm finding a new meaning.
Everything (you, me, rocks, trees, water, etc. etc.) is empty because it is all completely what it is with nothing more or extra inside (like a soul or a self or whatever). I can't describe why but I know a lot of you will understand that that knowledge brings a LOT of freedom and a lifting of some fundamental burden. But, I know I can get way way way more intimate with this knowledge than just my fleeting realization/undersanding.

I know that feeling all too well. All it takes is just a little taste of the truth to get us hooked. There's only one treatment for that nagging feeling, my friend. The treatment is the path.

If you haven't already, I would recommend implementing a daily meditation practice. Even if it's only 30 minutes a day, some practice is always better than no practice (just as any number above zero is infinitely greater than zero).

Keep us informed. Best of luck!
~Jackson

Hello Michael

I'm 59. I've been involved in one form or another of examining consciousness since I was 15 (Magick, Vedanta, Buddhism, drugs, martial arts, etc. etc.) I have had many profoundly dramatic experiences and I would say that the realizations you cite at the beginning of this discussion are profound and dramatic. Whether they came with fireworks may not be that important. But what I haven't tried is this particular form of meditation (samadhic/insight meditation). In particular what I haven't tried in meditation is watching my mental and physical sensations arise and pass away, examining these sensations for the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and emptiness, while continuously rejecting the idea that anything my mind generates is enlightenment. In other words all my previous examinations of consciousness were goal oriented. Once I had achieved whatever the goal I was seeking I would move on to something else. What is radical about the approach in DhO is that it is so technological, a meditation technology that (so the members assert) produces a series of reproducible awakened states . When I first encountered Daniel Ingram (via Buddhist Geeks) and DhO a short few weeks ago my mind was in a similar turmoil to yours, though I was a bit more arrogant, since I really do consider myself awake. What has helped me primarily is just what Jackson suggests, a daily meditation practice AND the recognition that what Jackson, Daniel, Hokai, Kenneth, Tarin and the others who have been doing this form for years have is a technological vocabulary that relates specifically to the states (continued in the next post)

they have achieved through this type of meditation. So the vocabulary I have developed over the years isn't quite congruent with that used here. Fortunately Ingram's guide is a great glossary to this language and mapping my experiences in mediation today against that vocabulary, it turns out, is a lot more helpful than trying to determine whether I have already achieved the states they describe. Also I don't actually remember enjoying meditation as much as I do now, so that's helpful too. I might have forgotten, though. I did do an awful lot of mantra, zazen, dzogchen, and visualization. I do find it exciting to be exploring (once more)! a well defined spiritual technology and I find the honesty and lack of dogmatism of most posters on DhO to be really refreshing.
- Mark

Author: telecaster

On Saturday I dusted off my zafu and zabuton and meditated "on the cushion" for the first time in a long time. (I've done it off and on in regular chairs and practice mindfulness as much as I can while working, eating, walking, etc.) I was determined and it was a good session in that I was able to stick with noting my breath and then seeing and noting other sensations and thoughts as they arose. I felt like something good had occured and it carried over into the rest of my day -- and my mindfulness was much more vigorous than it had been. I felt a lessening of stress and tension in my body and mind and the world looked in sharper contrast and slightly brighter. (Of course this changed and will change back and then change again)
Then, yesterday I got on the cushion after a very bad series of encounters with my childrens' mother (and my x-wife). These encounters were particulalry stress because she is a bi-polar in a very manic, paranoid state and what she says makes me fear for my childrens' emotional safety.
So, this sit was very different. I noted my breath most of the time, but my mind was dominated by thoughts of this woman and what she said and might do. I was anxious and obssessed. So, I noted "thinking" a lot and I noted "anxiety" a lot, etc.
And, i didn't stand up feeling all clear and peaceful like the day before.
However, I think the second sit was just as fruitful as the first. Don't you think?

One thing I thought to mention from what you have shared is that it helps to think of the meditation work as 'work'. What I mean is that, just like any job, it has it's moments, it's seasons, it's highs and lows. So when I say treat it like work I mean take it very seriously, make it regular, be strict about doing it, do it even when it sucks or is painful, etc., etc.. That is the kind of approach to this that pays off big in the long run.

Author: telecaster

It's two weeks since I wrote this post and 10 days since I started formal meditation again.
I hope this isn't "noise."
I'm feeling grateful right now because while I don't think I've made any great progress along the stages of insight, I've gotten to a place (that i've been many times before but not in a long time) in which a lot of the moment to moment pain I'd been experiencing (mostly in my upper stomach, lower chest) has lessened and the world looks a bit brighter in general. And, a couple of huge problems that I just couldn't deal with seem almost solvable now. So, that is good.
I'm also glad I've been exposed to the attitude towards practice expressed here and in Daniel's book. Buddhism/spirituality/practice can and should really be about learning about and DOING the exact things necessary to eliminate suffering and get awake. I've spend so many hours sitting in zazan at home and at zen centers with no idea of what I was doing and what it would do for me and with no access to any teachers who would or wanted to expain things to me. This isn't meant as a blanket criticism of zen practice.
But, man, a LOT of people I think have wasted a LOT of time because they didn't know what was possible or how to "get it done."
I'd read the "book" a couple of years ago and forgot most of it. Now, I am reading it again and it is getting through to me much stronger. And, I'm realizing that it answers a lot of the questions I've asked or have thought of asking.
So, I have a pretty good idea of where I am at. If I read about the first stage "mind and body" I only slightly relate to it so I'm certain that I'm not there yet. And, it is nice to know that, you know?
-continued

Author: telecaster

I do think, though, that in the past, as a result of my kind of clumsy yet intense practice of "choiceless awareness" I still somehow got some glimpses of the three characteristics, got some insights which led to me to some nice places and then experienced many "dark night" - like symptoms when I found I could never sustain the good feelings and insights.
But that is the past.
I feel a certain faith that now when I sit and note sensations, etc. and do it often and better and better that it will actually get me somewhere useful. That each time I do it I'm getting closer to something special and worthwhle.