Severe Props on this Guide To Maps - Had some much needed laughter. Right on. To T.H.E. point.

Thanks Ken, as always very helpful. Question about cessation in the cycles after path are they always followed by some sought of release, change or bliss or can they it be just the cessation followed by no change (ordinary feeling) then start to cycle again

there's always a change of some sort but not necessarily a change in feeling-tone. the clearest thing to look for is a kind of perceptual change but that might not be perceptible unless your concentration's up. look for a change in the way your body's weight feels. of course, this is just what's apparent to me, ymmv.

Hi Jeff,

In order to know that a cessation has occurred, there must be some kind of a change. That's because cessation is a lack of experience. So, if there were a cessation without a change after it, you wouldn't know about it. For all practical purposes, let's say that a cessation is always followed by a change of some kind, usually described as a feeling of relief, release, or bliss.

Is it possible to miss the change? Yes, in which case the cycle would reset, as you suggested, without your having noticed the cessation. This is not uncommon; in fact, it's common to miss both the cessation and the reset of the cycle. Many people who have not been indoctrinated into the Theravada system and are thus not trained to look for cessations or cycles do not report experiencing either, despite having attained one or more Paths. It's only later, upon learning about these phenomena, that they begin to experience them. In other words, these subtle phenomena can happen, but unless you are trained to notice them you may never see them. And even if you are trained to notice them, you may be tired or distracted and therefore miss them at times. Eventually, they happen so often that you sometimes tune them out as irrelevant. As Bill Hamilton used to say, "How many times are you going to laugh at the same joke?"

I like this simple map.

A few things worth mentioning are the common mimics and things that get mistaken for other things. A short list of the big ones:

The A&P fools many into thinking it was stream entry.
The formless realms do the same thing.
The Three Characteristics and the Dark Night do share some commonalities, causing some confusion at times, though as stated above, if your body really hurts, probably 3C.
Occasionally the A&P and Equanimity get mixed up.
Mind and Body can be so profound for some people on rare occasions as to be mistaken for things as high as Equanimity and much further.

More simple criteria:
Thoughts seen as objects, likely Mind and Body, though if after A&Park Night, could be Equanimity.
Noting interferes with breath: Cause and Effect.
Tense body, pain, difficulty, no A&P yet: Three Characteristics.
Energy, meditation in dreams/sleep/middle of night, big, profound opening that blew your doors off, likely A&P.
Edgy after A&P: always Dark Night.
Feel great after Dark Night: could be Equanimity, could be regression back to A&P.
The criteria for stream entry are complex: this should be its own thread.

Thanks for the replys I have been trying to understand something that has been happening consistently for about a year. This will happen anything from a couple of times aday (usually on the weekends when I meditate between 6 to 8 hrs a day) or every couple of days when I meditate at least 2 hrs a day. When it first started happening I thought I must have dozed off for a split second but over the past couple of months I have noticed 2 types of things that happen one is I notice a bit of a slide and then next a jolt or it feels like a sudden drop about a half second later the other type of thing its a jolt or sudden drop and I think a split second has passed. Although I have had a share of great experiences in meditation I cannot associate these blips with any incredible feeling, waves of bliss that people have been reporting. Hence my question are cessation always associated with Bliss waves and incredible changes/experiences between cycles.

Author: garyrh

Thanks for this Kenneth.

A question for the for that have gone thru this.

I am able to bring my attention to the "tingles" at pretty much anytime does anyone else have have this experience? Also at times of expansion there is strong "tingle" activity around the head.
By expansion I mean three characteristics, for me predominantly not self and suffering. Rather than using a map terminology, I call it expansion because that is what it feels like.

i strugle through my inglish as well as through stages of insight.little question about changes in perception-just yesturday i was at the sea side and looked at the waves and their inprint on the sand-the patterns they created and little chisps of sunlight that bursted only for moment on top of each wave before it breaks-i cought myself thinking that these things always existed but i never puted attention to them-never saw them even staring right on them.probably now the concentration grew more and i could enjoy this beuity.i am before stream entry, i guess perseptual changes after path will be even more significant-i ll not be able to miss it.

kenneth'thanks.couldnt help loughing-thanks for your humor-this way things stick better into the head

An isolated happening without the context of what came before and what came after is sometimes hard to diagnose, but when one really tunes into something in ordinary life and suddenly there is something beautiful and one sees thoughts as thoughts, usually this is the 1st jhana, of which Mind and Body is the first part.

also, i think some experiences could be pretty much anywhere on the insight map, because not every experience or aspect of experience must be an insight marker. lena's description sounds pretty wonderful, just a sensuous appreciation of being alive.

Kenneth, it was so helpful to me reading your thread, and really funny too. Thanks!

Author: kevin_stanley

Thank you so much. After reading Daniel's book I've been thinking a lot about where I might stand right now. After reading this "Idiot's Guide" it looks as though I hit A&P (inadvertently, not in the context of a disciplined practice) in the early 1990's and have been in chronic dark night territory ever since. I think it's time for me to set up a regular practice and move the ball down the field a bit.

Author: telecaster

Most of the insights I've had that I considered import were just that - insights with no accompanying spiritual "experience." Just really slight and subtle.

But I did have a moment once, which I've been thinking about a lot lately in the context of myself and these maps.

I think it was 1985. I had been practicing choiceless awareness for the majority of each day for about about a week. I think it had gotten nearly continuous and without much hard effort.

I went up to Lake Travis outside of Austin with a friend. I was standing by the car and looked over at a little streem which contained lots of plants, and surrounding the plants were 100s of tiny insects. While looking I realized or saw or experienced or lived this:
First:
Me (my body), and the plants, and the insects, and the water, and the dirt and the rock, and the air, etc. -- were all TOGETHER in some quiet reality.

And:

The thing that was my mind and all the myriad creations of my mind concerning me, who I was, and what the world and everything else was -- was a big ball of nothing - (something like that). It wasn't part of the world of the insects,plants, etc., and my body. I saw that It only existed because I conjured it up. And kept conjuring it up.

This lasted maybe two seconds and has never come back. Of course I tried to bring it back! There was no bliss or lights or excitement and, for sure, no change in my life. But what I knew intellectually from that moment I still know now.

It's nice to have a place to talk about this without getting embarrassed - even though I am a little embarrassed.

I dunno, the maps are useful but it's hard to see where I fit into them. I seem to go through cycles of sorts...some days I couldn't give a shit about meditation, buddhism, or anything really, and I'm fairly content to basically not think...sometimes even later that night I can't find satisfaction in anything, which makes me feel irritable and like I'm on fire, just without any physical sensations (other than the mind created stiffness). I sit down and meditate, and I feel better for the time that I'm sitting: calmer, concentrated, still, a greater sense of spaciousness and awareness of the present, and that sort of looseness of mind and body lasts for an indeterminate amount of time. One thing that does seem constant though, if I go a few days without doing either formal meditation or Tai-Chi, I feel progressively less at ease.

Sorry if this isn't the correct place to post, feel free to move my post if that's the case.

Thank you so much for this guide. I've been going through a lot lately and believe that I fall somewhere in Case Study #4.

I was recently the victim of a sexual assault. This wasn't my first go around with abuse so I knew what to expect from my mind afterwards. Right before the attempted rape, I was given some type of drug without my knowledge. I talked to an online Buddhist friend of mine and it seems like it was a DMT hit.

During the experience I had a vision. Not a schizo vision. More like I was aware of my surroundings to some degree but I was distracted by the things I saw in my mind. Lights are a given... The thing that was most prominent was that I felt and saw my life going backwards as the present was very slowly progressing.

During similar situations before (minus the drug) I had no idea what to do with my abuser. This time, I experienced a totally different thought process. I saw all the prior abuse and my mind dissected the information and the knowledge that I had gained from the rapes, physical and mental abuse from family and boyfriends and the outcomes of each and every occurrence. Those memories took over my body. I felt a very strange calming sensation overcome me. Despite my racing heart, extreme thirst and the overwhelming feeling that I was about to die- my body didn't show any of those things on the outside.

It felt like there were two energies controlling me. One was inside- scared and hurt. The other was controlling the outside. My body wouldn't do anything that would let the abuser know that I planned to run away when it was safe. I left the situation totally unharmed. That's a first for me. I waited until the guy fell asleep and called the police. He had two or three prior arrests (although I was not informed as to what they were for). While the police were talking to me, my calmness continued. I gave them my report and he was arrested.

It has been less than a week and I just feel numb. Please don't tell me that I need to go see a therapist. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, wore it out and did it again. I am able to apply everything I've learned to this experience. It would just be a waste of time and money.

My point is- I need a Sangha. I have been knowingly studying Buddhism for about five years. I'm 24 now and I learned about it in college when I was about 19. I have lived by Mahayana traditions to the best of my ability since before I can remember. I had "made up" my own religion/philosophy that I fully believed until I finally realized that what I thought I pieced together myself already existed and was called Buddhism. I now feel Zen becoming more prevalent in my experiences, though.

Homelessness has been a huge struggle for me the past year because the point of my path that I'm in has made it impossible for me to work. I've had and taken several offers to sleep on couches but always end up leaving when I realize I've become a burden to whomever was kind enough to give me a temporary roof over my head. However, as this used to be very frightening the fear has slowly turned me into a stronger person. That's something that can never be taken away from me.

The past two years have been filled with formal and informal meditation, online research books on various Buddhist topics as well as general introductory texts and A LOT of deep inward looking. I have recognized several Samsaric cycles in my life and finally ended several of them. I'm obviously still in the process, but I have accomplished things that I never thought that I would.

I suppose the main question I am trying to get at is help finding somewhere that I can study further. Online forums, podcasts and books just aren't enough for me. I hope to one day become a Buddhist Nun, but I can't accomplish that without help. I have very little to offer, but this is my life. Nothing else gives me the wholesome pleasure that Buddhism does. I've lost interest in every other hobby that I used to have. If it doesn't involve Buddhism, I'm just not satisfied. My practice gives meaning to my life. Devoting my life entirely to learning and helping others learn is what gets me up every day. This question is probably not meant for this discussion but I didn't realize that until I typed out the whole thing. I feel like I typed it here for a reason. I went to the 'Teacher' forum to begin with and found myself here. I just feel that with the experiences that I've had in my life and with Buddhism that my question ended up here for a reason. I could very well be wrong... I am just in a very odd place right now. I feel like I should feel sad or depressed or angry or guilty but I don't. I don't really feel anything- except passion for my practice. Thank you in advance to anyone who had the patience to read this Much peace and love.

I'm glad I found this.

Here is the deal. I was at Case Study #3. but now I can sit for much longer than I ever have and I really look forward to sitting. I definitely do not "hate everything". I would sit 4-5 times a day if I didn't have a job or wife who would kill me.

The problem is that I still have random thoughts popping into my head. Sometimes it's bad and I have a hard time staying on the breath others it barely happens at all. I do "feel fine every time I sit". If I take the below at face value I would think I was at the 11th nana but I have a hard time believing that when I am struggling with thoughts.

Any thoughts, pun intended.

I have been meditating on and off for about 20 years and have in the last 6 months developed a very serious meditation practice.  At home I meditate two 45 minute sessions/day.  I don't remember when but I'm sure a while back, I noticed that I would sort of "see" the breath circling around me when I meditated.  It was always in sync with my breathing.

On my last day of a recent 5-day retreat, I entered the first jhana.  While I was experiencing this amazing rapture, I could sense the breath coming up from my sides and sort of out away from me.  Once I got home, my experiences progressed and I started entering the jhanas almost every session, going up to J4 on several occasions.  As my experiences deepened, however, I started to feel worse physically all day after meditating in the morning.  I started feeling like I was bobbing up and down all the time, as if I had just walked off of a ship that had been on the water. I felt very light and like I was almost floating.  In a way nice but a bit hard to function that way.   When I would lie down, it was like being on waves.  The bed and my body would move up and down in waves and it would always get more pronounced the more deeply I breathed.  It got to the point where as soon as I would sit back down on the cushion, the waves would just take me right up as soon as I focused on my breathing and I would get almost pulled into J1 without much effort.  I had a few experiences where in J2 or 3, it felt like energy was being pulled up from inside and out of my head.  I thought that perhaps that would make the waves subside, like it was some sort of release of energy, but after a little while, the feelings of bobbing up and down would start up again.

Also, when my meditation sessions were done, I could barely come out. I felt so drugged, so deep in it that it was hard to drag myself back into normal thinking.  The other day, I was so drugged after my morning session, that I could barely function all day.  Mostly I just sat and stared at my toes.  I have read that your brain produces endorphins, dopamine and opioids in J1, 2 and 3 and I was wondering if all the opioids in my system were doing this to me.  I have a long health history (including lymphoma) and have weak immunity. frequent fatigue and exhaustion and have a hard time recovering from things.  I was wondering if I was having a hard time flushing the chemicals my brain was releasing out of my system.

I had to stop meditating after the other day.  I just couldn't function anymore and it started to get scary.  After 2 days of not meditating, I thought I was feelin better.  Then, I laid down yesterday and just did a body scan and noticed that when I started breathing deeply, the feeling of being on waves started up again and when I got out of bed that feeling persisted and now I still feel light and like I'm bobbing again.   The breathing seems to be what brings on this sensation.  If it's mild, it's pleasant enough when I'm lying down but I don't want to feel all day like I've just come off a boat.  My body can also feel very light.  If it's really bad, it can be scary in bed too.

I have been in contact with Leigh Brasington and gotten a lot of information but no concrete explanations of what's going on.  One teacher said it was a kundalini awakening but I don't know what to do with that.   I don't want to have to stop meditating but I'm wondering if my physiology is making me extra sensitive to what's happening in my body chemically.  I don't know if this is piti and if that's the same as saying it's from chemicals released from my brain.  I don't know if it's "energy" or what that even means.  I was also thinking maybe it was some synesthetic experience. MY meditation sessions have been great; I just want to feel well when I am not meditating!  Also, what I'm really interested in is emptiness and want to start doing some emptiness practice so I need to be able to concentrate on these practices when I'm meditating but I feel like I can't really do anything when I come out; I feel sort of brain dead.

Any ideas and suggestions would be helpful.  For now, I'm still not meditating.  it's been 5 days and I still feel the sensations.

What stage is it when meditation diminishes your sense of self, your sense of agency, your sense of free will, to the point that you have no ambition, feel no responsibility, and as a result don't care about awakening?*


*And you might have dropped out of the rat race too, because beyond your basic needs, you have no desire for material wealth or material goods.

This is just delightful. Thank you Kenneth.