Forum: The Big Issues

I am curious about the spontaneous occurrence of the Deep Insight into Arising & Passing Away ("A&P"), partly because it seems to be a common enough--and, more importantly, incredibly destabilizing--phenomenon to warrant some investigation.

Daniel has described a number of instances he went through here: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/theAandP.shtml

Now, the suggestion seems to be that 1. A&P events happen spontaneously and 2. the "Dark Night" stages follow any A&P.

From my own experience I can think of at least two or three suspect experiences and want to elaborate some. First, it seems that for whatever reason some people have enough concentration--or some deep, perhaps tacit, intention--that predisposes them to investigation, which in a high energy state could lead to this type of thing. It also seems common in dreams. Second, i do tend to believe that the Dark Night/dukkha nanas follow. They seem, however, to dissipate with time. Fourth, at least from what I can gather, in these spontaneous instances, the thing is an one-off type event--the conditions that allowed it to happen are so potent as to rarely be in alignment, and, as such, it tends to mean that one doesn't necessarily have the ability to progress back into and through that territory any time soon.

Does this seem well-founded? And why would the Dark Night stuff generally go away after time? Or is it just diminished into the background? My only current explanation is that this tends to follow the amount of energy involved, which causes it to diminish over time. A "Dark Night yogi" who sits to formally meditate the first time doesn't have the concentration or the perception to, if you will, pick up where they left off.

Judging from Daniel's exposition, yes. And from my own experience (if I interpret it correctly), the dark night stuff will diminish in intensity, but a predisposition to pondering and brooding remains. And I certainly haven't been able to pick up where I left off.

My experience was in childhood, and the psychological and intellectual development during later childhood may have had a kind of healing or scarring effect on the dark night. I really haven't thought about this too much, but your post got me remembering.

Anyway, here it is:

I used to take a word (I'd just learned to write in school) and repeat it endlessly, disassembling it into letters and sounds until it felt strangely meaningless and disconnected, floating by itself, as it were. I found it fun to "destroy" that word in this way, and usually did this at bed time because I wasn't tired yet. So one night, as I was dozing off, looking at the wardrobe door, I had this vivid half-awake experience: God tossed the entire globe of the world at me, from in front of the wardrobe door, yet far away, several times, but I failed to catch it. I myself felt oddly huge, out of proportion, watching myself somehow, from a perspective of great distance. And all this was accompanied by a soundtrack like the first few bars of Jimi Hendrix' "foxy lady" at full blast. I was awake afterwards, and really scared, if I remember correctly.

I quite possibly am misinterpreting this experience, and it's a long way back, about thirty years. Maybe my parents were throwing a party, playing Hendrix (though that wasn't their kind of music). My mother had been telling me classical mythology stuff around this time, so maybe the Atlas myth played into this, I really can't tell for sure. I never had any monsters in my wardrobe either. I've been a brooding, solitary type all my life.

Isn't projection fun?

Cheers,
Florian

Hey Nathan,

Interesting questions. In response to your first two, coming from my own experience having crossed the A&P many many times now the A&P event is indeed spontaneous (just as fruition is), meaning that you can't really predict the exact moment it will happen. That being said, it isn't spontaneous when looked at from a longer perspective in time, meaning that it happens very predictably in a stage-like way with certain stages always preceding it (mind & body, cause & effect, the three characteristics, and the arising and passing phase). Once one begins to see these cycles clearly then they can, to some degree, accurately predict when the A&P might arise. And yes the dark night quickly follows after the A&P.

As far as the dark night diminishing that seems possible, especially if one stops practicing for long periods or just eases up on the intensity. That being said it will be easy enough to cross the A&P fairly quickly again with practice and get back into the midst of the dukkha nanas. ;) So essentially what happens is one's mind "regresses" when there isn't sufficient enough concentration and investigation, and have to go through the progress of insight over and over again until attaining first path (fun huh?). For instance, one could go on retreat cross the A&P (as I've seen many times now with myself and others) and then when they come off retreat fall back. This can happen many times, as in Daniel's case. In my own case I crossed the A&P at least 3 times before making it through the 1st cycle completely and spent a couple of years in the 1st dark night territory. I didn't really have an experience of it diminishing that much during that time however, which I think had a lot to do with the fact that I was sitting 1-2 hours a day everyday throughout that time.

Hope that is useful...

That is helpful; I suppose the question is something like, if the insights are permanent, then why the need to re-learn them? It is, of course, clear that concentration and insight are practices that require practice, and that having them facilitates insight that might be missed without them. That said, after a day and a half on retreat I had gotten into A&P territory a couple weeks ago and am still able to cycle upwards into in daily sitting if I have some time. So it's clear that there's a learning/practice curve that flattens out.

But where I struggle is with this permanent dark night thing. Since I clearly lose the side effects of the A&P (e.g., right now I am sitting at my desk and not experiencing feverish heat), then it only follows that dukka nana/that level of vipassana jhana would fade, too, although there's clearly a dimmer-switch effect, e.g., while I am sitting at my desk if I firm up my intention i can tune into the three characteristics and the arising & passing of things in a quick matter and this seems to have some some energetic side-effect... So the question is, is the Dark Night lingering in the background for those who have crossed the A&P unwittingly? I'm trying to figure this out, as I tend to think I'm in the category of permanent dark night yogi, but I'm not chronically plagued with fear and paranoia. Which I suppose broadens the question into the interaction between personal proclivities and psychology with perception.

Hi Nathan,

Great questions and points. The question about why insights aren't permanent is an interesting one. It seems like they are and aren't permanent. They aren't in the sense that unless you've attained 1st path, without the proper conditions, one seems to fall back down the cycles (as you mention in your own experience). William Hamilton (one of Daniel's original teachers) gave an analogy in his book "Saints and Psychopaths" of the 1st path being like putting your foot down in a creek. Your foot flows down (going through the stages of insight), but if it doesn't reach the bottom (and penetrate that level of mind fully) then you have to keep going through that process until the foot touches the floor (i.e. 1st path). The good news, or what I've found, is that each time you go through the process it becomes a little easier, kind of like water flowing through a canyon and leaving a deeper mark. On one 6-week retreat I got into high equanmity (around the 5th week) but didn't achieve 1st path. On the next retreat I got into high equanmity in just over a week. That's the good news...

As far as why or how the dark night lingers, I don't really know, though it definitely seems to. I would venture a guess that because the dark night has to do with the shaking the sense of the observer (and not just the objects of perception) that perhaps that shaking causes some sort of lasting impact on the psyche, even if it's no longer actively shaking. Kind of lack the aftershocks from an earthquake. Maybe other's have thoughts on this, though from a practical view-point it doesn't seem to matter that much. What matters is practicing well and making it through the dark night (though new dark nights will unfold after that). From a theoretical viewpoint though, it's an interesting question.

" the shaking the sense of the observer (and not just the objects of perception) that perhaps that shaking causes some sort of lasting impact on the psyche, even if it's no longer actively shaking. Kind of lack the aftershocks from an earthquake. Maybe other's have thoughts on this, though from a practical view-point it doesn't seem to matter that much"

That makes sense: I was generally operating from the concept that the "loss" of insight happens, though clearly that's not entirely the case; i suspect my hope was that understanding the mechanism whereby the psyche's affected might help but that seems to be a false lead. as you've pointed out it, aside from the understanding that the insight's effect is not the same as it being constantly active as a stage--that'd explain why they are easier to move through with repeated effort--it doesn't seem to have much practical consequence.

hello MonkeyMind.

This experience you are describing is interesting. I think I have had similar experiences starting from when I was 6 years old. I have had experiences that I felt I could not Possibly describe and have no logic, yet i experience it, starting at 6, and maybe 10 times after. Sometimes when awake, and sometimes awakening from a dream. These sometimes go with bouts of extreme paranoia. I have no idea if this is related to A and P.

I was in this thread at another forum. Please check out if your description is similar to Danny's (w/c isalso similar to mine).

= )

Hi Mitch,

Which forum was that?

Cheers,
Florian

oops so sorry
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?s=9d8403c55daeaf992966095e2481d77d&showtopic=82973&st=0

quote of danny

"I am a beginner in buddhism, but have a personality disorder, I've had it all my life, but never knew what it was till I was diagnosed with it. I had the experience of feeling a gigantic body and couldn't tell how far objects where away, they could be right in front of me or very far away. I could experience very large limbs on myself and at the same time very small. Like I lost some sense of space, a very scary sensation. It came around everytime I had mental pressure. "

Hi Mitch,

FWIW, I've experienced sensations of huge/tiny limbs and "seven mile boots" space. Each such experience I've had was either in a distinctly altered state in meditation, or once, in a fever.

Weird experiences can and do pop up in meditation (and "off the cushion", and in dreams), and can sometimes be controlled, induced, and stopped. One useful way to look at them is that they exhibit the three characteristics like everything else, and can be used for insight practice. Getting lost in what they could mean, on the other hand, is usually not worth the trouble.

Of course, just to mess up my nice little picture, some people then actually use the content of dreams or visions or other unusual experiences as the basis for inquiry, without getting lost in the stories. That's more the turf of the esoteric traditions, I think, and there are people here on the DhO who are highly experienced in them.

I don't think I can say anything specific about personality disorder, since I'm no expert on the subject. General advice along the lines of being circumspect applies, of course.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: KellyBrady

Yes...my experience has been that the larger openings are followed by more intense dark periods...and yes...the longer I practice and the more these opening experiences deepen within the more I find myself brooding and lonely and incredibly blissful and conncected in an all at once language cant describe it kind of way. My backround is zen...not lots of labeling of experience as in map type traditions...so im learning alot by reading and hope to be able to dialouge despite the lineage difference and semantic variations. Upon reflection, the only spontaneous opening happened when I was under 5...the others did occur after some sustained attempts at different practices, so maybe they werent as much spontaneous as unpredicted.

Thanks for your reply!

I was starting to think that it had something to do with Arising&passing away. Since a lot of ppl experience it accidentally at childhood, I thought maybe I've experienced it already.

Author: EnikhanJohorns

Dark Night "stuff" goes away over time because it gets worked through and accepted. It can't be fought away, and stays in the past once it is over. Sometimes this can take twenty years.

Author: bboyYen

eghhh

In terms of spontaneous arising and passing away in people who do not practice insight at all.

That would be rare.

Because that basically make the equivalent of a pratyeka buddha or someone who discovers the path and has insights on their own without instructions.

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/MaryGarden.html

The above might seem to show some people who pass the A and P in some courses or Goenka courses and then spiral into some depressive stuff in the dark night et.c

But I still don't think there are that many people who pass the A and P spontaneously without insight meditation practice, because like I said that would mean you are figuring out reality and treading insight cycles to enlightenment without having been instructed or whatever.

Not that pratyeka buddhas were rare in ages without Buddhas, or are they?

Not all awesome ecstatic experiences and physical symptoms and weird thoughts mean A and P, please don't forget that. Just because during the course of meditation you encounter all sorts of weird stuff means absolutely nothing, if told about these things you could induce them if you wanted too. If you go through all this weird stuff and have no more understanding of Buddhism or at least have any INSIGHTS leading to more wisdom or understanding, then it means nothing.

To cross the A and P means you have seen an object arise and pass in real time with awareness, at least that I what I garner.

Forget physical symptoms.

Later on dissolution would be simply nothing things and having them disappear, sort of like how you note normally and the object disappears, dissolution.

Heck, I even read somewhere that the first three stages are conceptual or thinking or something, only the other stages are experiential, where you note things and they disappear, because if discernment was powerful enough you wouldn't see

Author: bboyYen

the beginning of an object. It would just disappear.

... accept for the fact that passes through the dukkha ñanas happen every time one reviews the Progress of Insight. It's true that a certain equanimity in regards to moving through the stages does deepen over time (and I'm not referring to the Equanimity ñana). But the dark stuff returns, and returns, and returns... the same way that a sunset inevitably follows the sunrise. As Daniel said in one of his Buddhist Geeks interviews, some of the old sages and mystics found this cycling to be extremely helpful in some way. I guess that's for us to discover through practice.

What changes is not the occasional presence of the "stuff", but our relationship to it and understanding of it.

Jackson

Author: marinr

I don't think it's rare at all. It's probably just that people don't have enough meditation skills to discern what really happend.

To confine A&P to buddhist insight path is, I think, also a mistake. Just for one example, you could go learn mathematics and understand it's theory as a map/mirror of your own mind (which actually it is) and the mind will eventually turn towards it's own functioning while trying to understand the theory.

As you said, first three insights are conceptual, and human knowledge is growing in complexity, so it probably happens more often than we think.

Hi marinr,

Nice words on the A&P event. Thanks

In regards to the first three insights being conceptual... this seems off to me, especially if you mean "first three stages/ñanas". Insight practice and the associated stages centered on the Three Characteristics. It's true that the Three Characteristics are on one level conceptual, but insight is gained when one experiences them completely. What happens when we experience them is also part of the "Insight". The phenomena associated to the deep experience of these truths are much more than simple conceptual understandings.

Jackson

Author: bboyYen

Hey like I said, that's what I read.

Author: marinr

Hi Jackson, thanks for the correction. I agree.

I know a very large number of people who have crossed the A&P "spontaneously", though if you talk with them you can often find some sort of experience or work that might have made it more likely, from breath work in theater training to my attempts to have more vivid flying dreams, from physical therapy to high-adventure hiking, there is often something that got them into the proper circumstances for the thing to zap them. Meditation centers and spiritual scenes, as well as all sorts of other scenes, such as vegan communities and many other movements, have massive infestations of dark night yogis, most of whom have no idea that is what they are. This is one of the largest blind spots in this and other societies, that we don't recognize the thing and what can do to people, both good and bad. One day they will teach about this stuff in junior high school health classes, but until then...

For what it's worth, I think of it as more of an "loss-defend-accept" cycle. Each new insight into the uncertainty of the observer can be accepted, with minimal lingering dark night... or it can be a rationale for settting up defenses and constructs to shore up the sense of self. That scaffolding lingers and the more scaffolding there is, the more it shakes in the slightest breeze of investigation. Anyway, that's my metaphore. I really don't know.

I think that it's possible to recognize this cycle to a certain degree and be more accepting of even large openings and suffer less or of a lesser duration, but it feels like so much of this is simply trial and error. Acceptance does seem to be a learned skill.

Author: kevin_stanley

I've come to the conclusion after reading MCTB recently and reading through threads here that I hit the A&P event in college "spontaneously," or at least without it being in the context of an intentional practice, but I can see that in a way I had been doing work throughout my childhood and adolescence that probably set the stage. As a child, when bored I would frequently try to fix my attention on some object or point in my visual field and see how long I could stay focused on it. This often led to trance-like states which I tended to find quite enjoyable (one of the places/times I most frequently did this was in church, btw). I continued doing this at times through adolescence, though less frequently than in childhood. So I think that contributed. Also, before the experiences that I'm now tentatively viewing as crossings of the A&P event, I had been really getting into the art of Alex Grey (the first time) and a couple of books by Ken Wilber (the second time), so maybe those ideas were working on my state of consciousness in ways that I didn't really comprehend.

At any rate, after the events I felt inspired, almost manic, and freaked some people around me out a little bit with my bizarre (and unfocused) zeal for the transcendent. Since then, and we're talking something more than 15 years now, I have tended towards depression and a difficulty connecting with "ordinary" things like school and work (e.g., I got a Ph.D. during that time, but the supposedly 5 year program took me 11 years).

I considered the possibility of bipolar disorder, but I don't seem to reliably cycle--just those couple of quasi-manic episodes following very profound-feeling experiences, then years of feeling sometimes OK, sometimes really crappy. (panic attacks, depression, etc.)

while it is sometimes hard to come to definitive conclusions, and it is not always true that there aren't other things going, as usually there are, that does have that ring to it.

Author: IanThreadgill

Wow ! This recalls an experience I had when I was about five. For no particular reason I was looking at my finger and saying the word finger a few times. I suddenly realised that the sound and the thing had nothing in common at all and this moved me into a state of observing myself, or at least of not being who I normally was. I asked my mother about it and she looked worried, so I didn't mention it again. It didn't really change me, as far as I know, but I've never forgotten it.

Author: IanThreadgill

Again, me too ! The sense of limbs being huge and very unwieldy and not entirely animated. Often when feeling not quite right, often with a sense of something like a whole apple swallowed and trying to re-emerge. Used to hate the experience, but also feel it was important somehow. But hey, mind...