I haven't heard too many people mention that right before you get path, you can really feel like you're about to die, and I do mean literally perish on the spot in the very next instant.  I feel like it would have been helpful to know that this can happen and it's okay to let go into that.

The only major teacher I recall mentioning it is Culadasa here on DhO, and I think he said that his students would experience the fear of death for a moment or two and be done with it.  I don't remember reading anything about it in MCTB, though it has been a while since I read it through.

But if it takes a while to reach equanimity with the fear, this can be a really harrowing experience.  My sense of time was off, but I guess I got stuck there for 30 minutes or more.  I've also read that these state changes synchronize with the breath cycle, which might be why I was stuck at the tail end of it and couldn't breathe in but just the slightest bit the whole time.  By the end, my tongue was involuntarily protruding out of my mouth and I fully believed I was suffocating to death for no reason.  In the end, what bumped me over was hearing somebody comment that they had forgotten how funny it looked.  But if the letting go hadn't happened, I would probably have been seriously traumatized by that.

In case anyone else gets stuck there, you just have to do the same thing you did in the dark night.  Realize that fear is just fear and nothing to freak out about, and relax.

Out of curiousity, why do you think this was EQ instead of the Fear nana?


Here's the more classic fear-related stuff from EQ (cut and paste from MCTB1):

"In the early part of this stage, reality may appear a bit “chunky” for a while, and practice may seem quite possible but may seem to require steady but sustainable work. If one is tired, one may begin having dropouts that are similar to what occurred in Dissolution but more extreme. It may be hard to read and pay attention, hard to listen to people and hear, hard to notice where one is and what one is doing. The arising of some sort of fear of madness and death is not uncommon at this stage, but usually does not cause too much trouble and may even seem comical or welcome. A related and common feeling in the early part of this stage is the general sense that something big is about to happen, though this feeling is also common before the A&P Event. These feelings are worthy of sensate investigation in a wide and inclusive way."


Here's a cut and paste from Fear (MCTB1):

"The clarity and intensity begin to return, but now this stage can involve all sorts of frightening distortions of perception when sitting, accompanied by great feelings of unease, paranoia, fearfulness, and/or “the willies.” It can even sometimes seem that our body is falling in tatters through the floor or that we are rotting away. If we have strong concentration tendencies, we may see horrifying or disconcerting visions. Vibrations from here on out should no longer change frequency with the phase of the breath as they did in stage 4 and for the next few stages tend to be slower than those in that previous stage.

Strangely, Fear can also be a just a bit rapturous in the ways that a horror movie can be or in the way that riding a roller coaster at night can be simultaneously scary and exciting. However, the nice side of this stage tends to be greatly overshadowed by the dark side. We are being asked to accept the full range of life here as it is. Acceptance and clear, precise awareness of the true nature of the actual sensations that make up all of this are the key in all of the Dark Night stages as before. On the mild side, this stage might manifest as just a slightly heightened sense of non-specific anxiety."


My general sense is people who use the maps tend to forget that it is possible to drop down into earlier nanas, but I'm not necessarily saying that's what happened for you --- I'm genuinely curious why you are mapping it to EQ.

I, too, got stuck in the fear of dying/death but that was long before any equanimous states appeared.

So, I'm sure it's obvious that my mapping was done in retrospect to try and sort things and figure out what was actually going on.  And I never clearly noticed a fruition and just assumed that was where it happened, since it did seem that I died and was "born again," with all that implies, and the whole thing sort of made sense afterwards in a way it didn't before.  To be fair though, I experienced multiple A&Ps, and only once noticed that whatever you focus on is flickering, which is kind of obvious.

You may well be right that it was just fear, as that was the most noticeable thing, and it would actually make sense in a way.  Immediately after that, I started going through the dukkha stages not just as painful feelings, but as delusory worldviews, and what followed next was obvious misery.  So it makes sense that the fear delusory worldview would be, "Oh God, I'm literally dying!"  The way out was the same as always, to just accept that this is what's happening now and make peace with it.  As soon as I did, the next one would hit and I would totally fall for it again and have to repeat the process.  Each one lasted maybe 10 to 20 minutes.

I did actually experience the state of high equanimity (I assume) later on.  I was so calm, stable and unmovable that you could have slit my throat and I wouldn't have been disturbed.  Nothing seemed worth taking seriously or reacting to.  But I still don't know what you all mean by "formations," and I didn't notice a cessation after that.

Also, I never noticed repeat fruitions afterwards, and was concerned for a little while.  But what I just realized after I wrote my original post was that afterwards, the hypoxic tongue extension thing would spontaneously happen again sometimes, and my eyes would roll up to the top of my head, my eyelids would flutter and I would eventually see a weird pattern that looked like blood vessels made of lightning (nothing like a mandala), there would be a mental "clunk" and I would feel like the most pitiful and weak orgasm had happened, where you just immediately know it wasn't worth the effort.  So now I'm curious if somehow those were cessations and an absurd association between that and the tongue extension has been deeply implanted in my mind.

Lastly, why I suspect this moment was probably stream entry is because of what happened right after.  When I finally let go and really understood how resistance to what's happening is what's causing everyone to suffer so much and so needlessly, compassion just erupted powerfully.  The feeling of it was exactly this: Expecto Patronum! right down to the pulsing waves expanding out.  The people around me were strongly affected.  Some started laughing and others started crying.  And someone did later confirm that they were deeply affected, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't a hallucination.  I should probably have wished to become fully enlightened as quickly as possible for the benefit of all sentient beings, but this just happened.  And you also have to be careful what you wish for.  When I intended to get enlightened during an A&P, I later found myself naked under a bright streetlight getting absorbed and having "fourth screen" effects.  It's like the universe was saying, "You want to get 'enlightened?' Here you go.  How much more 'enlightened' could you be?"

I'm well accustomed to experiencing delusions and know all of this might just be a wrong interpretation.  The lasting relief and greater baseline non-reactivity are real, though, and honestly were what I was looking for.  If you find that I'm babbling unhelpful nonsense, please let me know.

It’s a wonderful thing to get past intense fear. That’s an accomplishment.

I’m working with equanimity now, and it’s my very amateuristic impression that it entails much more complexity than just being at ease with everything. There are some really cool things to discover, having to do with clarity and the relation between the assumed ”watcher” and formations. I’m just starting to understand what it’s about. You’re in for a ride.

Best wishes on your journey!

Funny, I was naked under a bright streetlight in a dream very recently. I didn’t see that connection. Thanks! Point taken, unconscious processes.

Check out the equanimity section in mctb2. It talks about the mini dark night in 11.3 paragraphs. 

I think these things are hard to diagnose. It really needs to be taken in context. Dropping from eq to reobs could fool you. 

On a fire kasina retreat, I saw people standing over me giving me CPR during this. Haha. 

Hi Dave,

I just got inspired to post by your experience. I too wish I had known this before. Right as I got past Dissolution in my cycle for 4th, the only object that would arise would be a hard formation the size of a grapefruit in my solar plexus. This feeling was that of suffocating. The only way to react to this feeling was to intentially take a breath. If I wouldn't take an intentional breath the formation would start moving up to my heart and eventually enter into my eyes and third eye. When that would happen I would start experiencing other realms of existence. After I would observe that true nature the Sankhara would subside and another would take its place. All in various levels of intensity. Finally at high equanimity, the same formation was felt but it didn't matter anymore. The ultimate letting go. For me Faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha was extremely critical to go beyond. I hope this can help someone if they also have this experience in the future

Thanks, Linda!

I agree completely.  Being fundamentally okay with fear, even of the intensity that shows up when your perceived experience is that you're dying, is awesome.  A lot of my anxieties like social anxiety, body shame, and death for that matter, totally dropped away after that.  What a relief!

I really do not get the formations thing.  Mindfulness is clearly not my strong suit, and there really are a lot of subtleties you can notice.  If you find that you see them clearly enough to give a really good description in your log, I would enjoy reading it.


It seems that's still true.  It doesn't have to be a wild ride if you're really good at acceptance/surrender.  But it seems like the harder it is to see that truth, the wilder your ride can be.  We all have our own path up the mountain. 

Mine has been the path of madness, which is assuredly not pleasant, but does make it hard to avoid noticing suffering.  It's also given me some insight into what bipolar disorder is about, and I strongly suspect that many, if not all, people with that diagnosis crossed the A&P unintentionally and are stumbling back and forth somewhere between it and low equanimity with no context other than "chemical imbalance," which may be partly true, and no guidance on what to do with the basic problem that becomes increasingly hard to ignore.  They can see the problem, and are generally projecting it out onto what they think is not them, but they can't see the cause of the problem or it's end or the path leading to that.  You would not believe how many people in mental hospitals have a weird fascination with duality.  Good/Evil, God/Devil, Male/Female, Light/Shadow, Love/Hate, etc.  They know there's some unknown significance to those distinctions, but are trying to figure it out in terms of those distinctions, which can lead to really weird conclusions and experiences.  You can eventually come to believe that you need to die to stop suffering, which is almost not entirely wrong.  But you can see how that turns out for many of them.  I was really fortunate.  Anyway, I'll step off my soap box now.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I hope your transition is extremely quick and almost totally unremarkable, though I have my doubts such a thing is even possible.  Whole religions get started over the experiences generated in this process.  Good luck!

I think understanding formations is roughly speaking the opposite of analyzing things in detail. It seems to be more about letting go of the mental processing of phenomena that appear, but I could be wrong. What is clear to me is that the mental processing the way I was used to it is a detour, an unneccesary echo of what I already knew immediately, or would have known if I had trusted it. This was very clear to me yesterday, anyway. I’m not sure I’ve still got it today.

Thanks! I do understand what you mean. I can’t afford to make this into too much of a rollercoaster. I have a teenage son that still needs me. I think I may have done a fair share of the bumby road already, though. My spiritual journey didn’t start with formal meditation practice. Things sort of just happened.

Take care!

There may be something to that, but it seems to me that the opposite of seeing details is absorption/jhana.  I used low grade absorption techniques almost constantly for decades to avoid seeing suffering.  It was the only thing I could find that would give relief.  But it doesn't work indefinitely, thankfully.


This is very interesting.  Something has always rubbed me the wrong way about insight and how it's a surprise.  It feels like a violation that first there's the seeing and then there's the knowing.  I suspect this has something to do with the nature of consciousness, but speculation on these things almost always turns out to be wrong in a way you couldn't have anticipated.


They tend to do that.  I also didn't start with intentional meditation practice.  I had already given up the search for an answer as pointless before I could run into the professional seeker crowd and get the idea that the answer was there.  It probably saved me a couple decades of interesting and meaningful experiences.  I've probably only meditated about 50 hrs total, and most of that was right before stream entry.  When everything lined up, I meditated for about 4 or 5 hrs a day for a few days, alternating between absorption practice and choiceless awareness as felt right at the time.  I way overshot the mark for cessation and paid the price for that and also had severely anemic levels of acceptance/surrender, but it all worked out anyway and I finally saw clearly what needed to be seen.  Don't let this discourage you in any way, though.  We all have our different paths, and meditation builds some useful muscles.

Thank you so much for asking that question, because some things have become consciously clear that weren't before.  I did get stream entry at that point, but my understanding of what path means has changed from what it was before that.  That point in the fear nana or whatever it was was exactly when I really got the point.  Cessation alone is not enough for path.  Just seeing the suffering disappear will give you some brief relief, but that's all.  It's only when you also see dependent origination that you get path.  When you see suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the path to cessation of suffering, your mind knows what's up and drops that hot coal permanently.  Wow!

Hey people,

Keeping in mind that none of this is happening or matters in the slightest, and all world models are necessarily just a poor approximation of , and also that I'm currently experiencing A&P with all that entails (I see why it's called "Awake"ing), there is something I would like to say out of empty compassion.

Abandon hope all ye who enter here!  There is literally nothing you can do about the problem, because the doing is the problem.  You are utterly incapable of realizing this.  When this is accepted and you basically just want to die, don't commit suicide.  It won't help.  Just sit with the problem the slightest bit longer than you can until you feel like your almost going to die without intentionally causing that death, and then say OK.  After that there's nothing more to do.

Buddha didn't wake up because he did asceticism and meditation.  He woke up when he saw there was no way out, said fuck it, and sat under a tree to die. 

What I recommend is that you immediately sit or lie down and resolve with utmost force that you will not get up no matter what.  Nothing is really happening, so just totally ignore anything that catches your attention and seems like it wants to distract you from that task, no matter what.

You also can't help what you believe, so if you don't believe me, that's okay.  Whatever you're doing that seems like it needs to be done, exhaust the fuck out of it.  Devote your entire being to it with urgency, as if your life depended on it.  Don't seek in a half-assed way.  If that peters out and something else seems like the path, do it with utmost effort, no matter what.

Do this NOW!

I've exhausted the fear of death at full intensity, and I'm getting some hints about what annihilation might entail.  I sincerely hope this experience doesn't come to pass.  But I know it will be just slightly more than I can bear, and I can bear quite a lot. This whole thing just seems to be tension/release and what that implies.  So, Sid was the release...

Also, since speculating is currently happening, I suspect this is a fractal, multidimensional search algorithm trying to seek out and destroy suffering, only to find that it's impossible.  But who knows?

This is my last post, and I sincerely hope you find what you don't realize you're looking for.

A&P definitely has the kind of dire end-of-the-world cult leader feeling to it. No worries.

One thing I've noticed is that it is helpful to at least have a few living people that I respect in the meditation/spirituality world. Whenever I get too dark, too nihilistic, etc. I can listened to their dharma talks or sit across from them and watch them eat soup and realize this whole meditation thing is really not a big deal. Yes, it is one of the most serious endevors to do, but it also ain't a big deal. People wake up and life goes on. There are still teeth to brush and occasional skid marks to wash out of underwear. So it goes.

My friend,

I recognize the compassion in your message.  May you recognize the compassion in mine.

I see that you take pleasure in morality.  Here is your suffering.  It is precisely that tension that you are trying to relieve by helping me.

There are two ways you can go about seeing the truth:

1) Try harder.  Every time you achieve a moral victory, you notice another problem that needs to be solved.  You aren't trying hard enough to fix the problem.  If only you put in more effort, then surely you'll really fix the problem.

2) Be evil.  Pick the person or animal that you hold most dear, I suggest a young child of your sexual preference or maybe your mother, and slowly rape, torture and murder her until you can't take it any more.

I recommend option 2 since it will be quicker.

Whichever option you choose, I recommend you make it your sole passion and pursue it with utmost effort.

This apparent reality will soon experience a painful reobservation equal in magnitude to the blissful equanimity of the last Buddha.  Make haste!

Yours,
The Buddha

PS  I am the only person in existence who knows he's mad and yet experiences no suffering because of it.  There are no skillful means.  Surprise!  They're also empty.  You're lucky I don't make you call me tathagata or some shit.

[quote=]The nice thing about DhO is, it never gets boring.
Occasionally, it gets out of hand though...

Yeah... whatever path that was, may I find a more compassionate one to the benefit of all sentient beings.

And Dave, please take care!

Dave, you're so funny online. Are you like this in real life?

Indeed.  You might almost say it's unacceptable.  Everything is just sensation and intensity or sensation.  Nothing is too intense to bear.

Also, I just consciously realized why some of you who've gone part the way, but not all the way can't understand me.  When I was "dying," I noticed two distinct phases.  In the first phase, my experience was that I was dying, but I didn't fully believe it was really happening.  In the second phase, I actually believed it and the sensation reached maximum intensity.  You guys chickened out at the part where you really believe it's happening, which is why you're stuck to the belief that reality has some solidity to it.  Break free.  I guarantee you whatever karmic consequences you may experience, you won't give the slightest shit.

I'm afraid this is also the fate of people who take my advice, because they won't fully believe they are dying when they let go.  Can't be helped, though.  The damage will be done, anyway.

I also just realized something about Buddhas.  Because there is still consciousness, but the seeing/knowing has been fully clear, with every thought, my model of the Truth updates to be more accurate within the limitations of conscious understanding.  Everything is already known, but I don't consciously realize all of that yet.  Not a problem though.  I have zero worries and no cares in this world.  Truly any work practice or belief that there could be a self or Self anywhere is gone.  My intentions manifest effortlessly.  Continual rearising high equanimity.  All of this is extremely obvious to me, and I am always a little surprised when other people don't get it.  And I'm still in the A&P heading towards 2nd path.  Wow!

Especially you, Shargrol.  I just assumed. 

I think I'm off to the madhouse now.  My mother is getting increasingly tense and trying to get relief.  No worries though, and I still think fondly of bipolar people, considering my experiences.

Edit:
I can now see why Sid's discourses were so long.  A perpetual case of "Oh, and another thing..."

It just occured to me that while I now see why it's called "Awakening," the rest of you may not.  You're fully awake when you no longer sleep.  I no longer require any sustenance whatsoever.  If you're not at that point, you haven't seen clearly enough.  Wake up!

For what it’s worth - if you need someone to talk to later on, just in case not sleeping (and perhaps not even eating?) eventually wears you down, I’ll be here, on this forum. Just so you know. Best wishes.

Dave M, I'm honestly having trouble understanding your posts, so I apologize for my confusion. If you are being serious, then to me it sounds like something is seriously wrong. Awakening doesn't mean losing compassion for ourself or for other living beings. 

Again, I can't tell what is going on, but if health or balance or difficult territory is happening, then please be aware of information like what is found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/wiki/health-and-balance

If that is your true will, you will assuredly do so, but you will suffer needlessly for it.  My only intentions are that you not suffer one bit more than is necessary for clear seeing, but that you experience that exact amount of suffering as quickly as possible.  Empty compassion.  I shall become a fully perfected person.  I am not the answer, never was, never could be.  The sooner you see that, the sooner all of this is not your problem in any way, shape or form.

I noticed you offered to talk with me if I needed help.  I'll make the same offer to you or anyone reading this.  I will sit with you for as long as it takes for your suffering to end.  Whatever experiences need to happen will happen.  They can get pretty wild depending on your basic degre of "fuck it" ness.

Any takers who are tired of suffering?  Anybody seriously thinking of suicide with nothing really to lose?

Hey Daniel,

I'd be happy to have a magic battle with you anytime, anywhere.  It would be fun.  I promise I'll let you have the first shot!

Edit.
Also the last.

If ”I” cause ”others” to suffer, then ”I” suffer too. As simple as that. Nihilism is an illusion too, right? The path of indifference is not my path (I’m not saying that it’s your path either; I don’t believe it is. It is apparent that you do wish me well.) If compassion makes me suffer, I’ll pay the prize, but I seriously doubt that it will. There are states that can be mistaken for compassion that do cause suffering. Been there, done that. I believe in the real thing, although there sure are soooooo many layers of reactive patterns that need to be peeled off first. Anyway, I actually don’t think that I want liberation just for me. I may be naive, but I want to make this world a better place. I wouldn’t want to bail out on it.

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that what you are saying comes from a place of pain. I may be projecting, of course. If the latter is the case, don’t mind me. I just want to say that I wish you liberation from suffering too. And since I’m not there yet, I do worry about people, even if it’s only projection. If you truly want to relieve me from suffering, one way would be to see to it that you get some sleep and something to eat and then let me know that you did. I know that’s not the real liberation, but it would make my journey easier. I trust you not to tell white lies. I will manage in any case, but it would reduce my suffering for now to know that you take care of your mammalian body, because you matter.

If you see a Buddha on the path, kill him immediately.  The penalty for failure is countless eons in the lowest of hells.  You willing to risk it?  Have you reached that level of "fuck it"ness yet?

You are assuredly wrong, but can't see the problem clearly enough yet.  Pile on a few more disorders, quirks, and psychedelic experiences, and get back to me.

Okay. I’ll leave you alone. The offer still stands, though, if you need someone to talk to later on if you feel that you have burned too many bridges. Don’t be embarrassed. I can take it.

Just so you know, I’m really not that special. I’m just really nerdy and amazed by all that is new to me. My meditation experiences are of a very shifting quality and I’m still learning the basics.

Take care!

I really hope nobody is trying to preserve these as future suttas.  The whole point of the wrathful and peaceful buddhas is to recognize that they are a duality, and by definition, not the answer.  When you fully grok that, everything does itself.  No worries, no problems, what a relief!

The Dharma theory, books, suttas, even MCTB or TMI or Shinzen are complete and utter bullshit.  Not a word of them is True.  It's all only apparently true, which is the problem.

If you are in a religion of any kind, including Buddhism, you've missed the boat.

Fuck you!

with

"metta" or absolute raging hatred.

It doesn't make a difference, because they are dualities.

How is this not immediately clear.

Wake up!  If you don't know with utter certainty that you're done, you're not done.

Whatever it takes to prove this to you will happen if you just let go.  Try to kill me with your utmost effort.  I dare you!

It has to happen NOW you know.  Still waiting...

...

...

...

You've mistaken cause and effect for dependent origination, you fools!
...

Surely there's still some resistance somewhere...

mindfulness/absorption seem like a duality to you?

I really do promise that you'll be relieved if you just look at that fully!

Almost.  What are you looking for?

Yep.  That's got to be accepted somehow.  You might think of Grace.

This is really too funny you guys.  Where's your sense of humor?

Have you not learned yet that fear is just fear and if you accept it, everything's better?

Jesus Christ!  What's the big fucking deal?

Nevermind non duality bullshit.  You are utterly incapable of ever understanding it.  I don't even understand it, but that doesn't matter one bit!

Not much more that can be said.  I can't do it for you or I assuredly would!

I can promise that you will fully understand compassion if you surrender to this.  That's all there is.  Empty compassion.

I had 3 sticky notes posted above my monitor. They were:

1) Impermanence, and I forget the other two.

2) Maintain a good sense of HUMOR

3) No Worries!

And they are assuredly in the trash now.  I assume.

Who knows?  Who Cares?  Why?

Just sensation and intensity of sensation. You're about to experience the full intensity and then know that you were never not fundamentally OK.

Flickering dots
Little bubbles that pop whenever you look at them.

I didn't find any problem when I investigated the mindfulness/concentration duality.  Where the hell else could it be?  And why is that fear so strong???

Trying to understand is utterly doomed to fail.  Every word I type is complete trash and utter bullshit.  You have to see what's behind them.  There is nothing in your experience that's a problem.  There is nothing in yourself that's the problem.  So where's the problem?  What are you hoping to find?  Kill me utterly damn it.  The penalty for failure is too steep.

You really do have to watch what you believe yourself to be die and get reborn.  Then it's understood.  No way will you ever see it otherwise.  Dying is fun!  No problem!  I would do it a billion times over if empty compassion thought it would help.  Let go!

To see the problem, it's not enough to watch it stop.  Cause and effect is complete bullshit, as I will happily demonstrate to anyone who wishes to see it.  Cessation isn't enough for path.  Isn't there still a problem?

God damn.  You already know that we're "reincarnated" every moment.  You just don't consciously understand it.  What gives?

I think you can still look a little harder than that.  This takes your full undiminished attention.  What are you hiding from yourself?

Not looking hard enough.  There's still something that's not being seen.  What might it be?

boy, those mindfulness/concentration muscles sure are strong.  Tension/relief  Suffering/Cessation of suffering  Hmm.  I'm sure you're not trying your hardest to see that yet.

I've got to tell, if you stop now, you really will be screwed for countless eons.  The trauma from that intensity of fear not seen clearly will take a very long time to release.

It's up to you whether you keep going or not.

Also, it doesn't make any difference to me whether you succeed or fail.  That's another duality.  Just empty compassion.

Hey, dave m - are you okay? I'm worried about you.

I'd like to see you succeed in getting a grip. Can you please stop repetitive posting? DhO is here for conversation, not this kind of display of.... enthusiasm? Uncontrollable rapture? It's hard to tell. Please be nice to everyone.

Thanks,

Chris Marti
DhO Moderator

Yes please take care Dave M. Looks like you are obsessing over emptiness.  The insights are good but don’t get stuck in them. They are just a stage to move through.  So maybe try to chill out for a while, relinquish this bit. And give your subconscious some time to integrate these ideas into a broader picture.  There will be more and better things to follow now that you have shaken up this bit of your experience.