My take only, much of it from the perspective of my Dzogchen/Zen background, and so likely NOT the predominant view here:

There are countless ways to get there, some similar to traditional paths... some seemingly random, and with no obvious recognizeable dharma whatsoever.

What they appear to have in common to me is that the "self" and your beliefs about a dualistic reality necessarily obscure your ability to see its  non-dual nature. Dogma/dharma/stillness practice breaks down those beliefs. At some point enough of these mistaken beliefs might be cleansed sufficiently that you get a brief insight into the non-dual nature of reality, which (as you suggest) is ALWAYS here, visible, and entirely familiar to you.

This brief insight is stream-entry. After this, the obscuring "self" begins to spin down and you no longer believe in it, or duality, as ultimately real in the absolute sense.

Eventually even the story of such a journey is seen to be a falsehood.

Was the author someone here called "seth tapper?"

You have to know what you're looking for - that takes time. A lot of time. A person can't just get to the heart of how the mind works in an instant. I could tell you all day long how the mind works and that just won't help you. At all. This is something you have to explore for yourself, usually by trial and error. There are various techniques you can use but YOU have to use them and YOU have to do all the work.

Example: If I explained to you right now how to play a Bach overture on the piano could you just go do it? No, you couldn't. That's why this thing we do is called practice.

EDIT: So this is really about uncovering, unmasking, whatever you call it, the habitual, unquestioned and "hidden" inner workings of the mind over a lifetime. We don't question how our perception works. We just accept it. That kind of habit takes a lot of work to overcome.

Nice.

It took me a long time to get to that point.

This is very different from the experience of a pre-path meditator. Do you know any pre-path meditators who are always able to experience the emptiness whenever they want, just by taking a short break?

There is no awakening. Sorry to break it to you.

There is only the sound of the bell.

I hear words when I read. 

He lost his marbles towards the end there, but I miss that seth. He's on r/streamentry under a different name - could spot that meat talk a mile away.

I consider myself a pre-path meditator, I consider this (with the application of effort & mindfulness/recollection) to be a feature of the stage mind&body,  "ah, there's just mental and physical phenomena arising and passing in accordance with causes and conditions of their own accord" *joy*, *smiles*, *release from having to be something* That sense of self that arises in different social contexts? Cause&effect. That all senses are changing and sustaining any object or fixed sense leads to unsatisfaction/slight distress and there's ease in realization all of this is going on by itself.... three characteristics 

the ungovernability & that there is just mental and physical phenomena - that de-location of awareness from some egoic observer is what I associate to be mapped to the word 'emptiness' - the mind without conceptulization or objectification, where it truly cannot be said 'exists' or 'exists not' of any phenomena - is beginnings of observation of anicca and intuitive wisdom (the insight cycle) - some connection with ultimate reality, not the conceptualization "body", "breath", but *that vast indescribable universe of fluxing phenomena*

Now, as we're using words, we're using concepts, and concepts are not ultimate truth: consider the concept "tree" and *that vast fluxing beautiful thing* Mahasi Noting is great for adopting the conceptual mind and putting it to good work focusing again and again on ultimate reality - that moment that you begin realizing verbal labels are insufficient  First taste of relative / ultimate distinction on an *intuitive level* not a conceptual level. Sentences like "there is no such thing truly as a tree" make sense. 

This is what I associate with the term 'emptiness'.

Relative / Ultimate is also 'mind and body' - distinguishing between mentality of concept and the *reality* of that bodily sense data. Instead of seeing "a tree" truly seeing the tree - all its changing etc, thus beginning three characteristics.

Early insights bring great happiness!  

Why do I consider myself pre-path? I clearly have self-view / sakya-ditthi / personality-view - there is someone that 'has' these insights, there is someone the meditation is 'happening to'.  I think, and feel, quite strongly, these conceptualizations about myself *are true* lol - yep - self-view  This fetter goes on stream-entry. 

EDIT: of course all this talk risks the corruptions of insight, which applies to even 'stages' like mind and body, through re-ification & objectification and attachment oh well, back to the pillow.

Hey Kiddo, good questions.

First up, yeah come back Seth. Surely that's enough downtime from DhO? Maybe stepped cooling off periods would be a good way to go. First time one week, then a month, then a year?

Second up, aside from agreeing with all the other great comments, I would suggest the difference is what is doing the experiencing of emptiness, or toggling between modes. At the start, there is an observer.  At the end, there is just the emergent phenomenon of observation. You stop being a noun, and become a verb. You are longer a subject or object in a sentence, but ... something else.  A matrix of fluxing potential that is fundamentally simlutaneous and non-linear. 

Third up. I kind of only partly agree with Kenneth. I think there are two things going on. One is that you deconstruct the grapsing self and once that is gone it is gone. The second is that you are then human, and have human experiences. You might still be expanded, or contracted, you might be calm or active, you might be concentrated or scattered, you might be absorbed, or not absorbed.  So, the extent to which you are contracted and scattered and active and not absorbed you might be described as not awake at that moment - but as soon as you notice this you have the choice of flipping your states ... or even tripping around the six realms, if you want to. 

And finally, the last stage is "letting go of that very craving".  I read that as releasing the residual karma/sahkhara; that is the final purification. The last sankharas that linger can create some passion, aversion and delusion, but only momentarily, and it doesn't stick.  For people following the householder path, there is likely less purification along the way and less desire to erase leftover sahkharas associated with householder life, so you might occasionally fall into passion, aversion or delusion, particularly when mindfulness is low. But you can easily ditch these when you notice them.

So yes, you get back to being human.  But without the horrible virus of the first noble truth, and with many more options for how you relate to reality and to yourself.

Just my zero cents worth.  

I can't see how it's different, having some 'toggle mode' myself, between getting 'caught up' in experience, and what i'll simply just call 'mindfulness'. Maybe they're not actually an arahant?  Maybe they are, good to them then, who knows?

Also, interesting, to me the term 'meat mode' - to me I associate that with some insights, as in, some deeply felt sense, there just being this 'sack of bones' and some mentality is getting pretty close to some experience of ultimate reality  [not an ultimate experience of ultimate reality, just *some* experience of ultimate reality - materiality] Like the elements meditations  But apparently 'meat mode' is to denotate some sort of experience or mode without insight. ;)

I love talking about dhamma, I can see how it could be dangerous hanging out here too much Papanca! I just can't help myself - this stuff is *really cool* and investigation of mind is like *the single coolest thing you can do* and happiness that isn't like reliant on a bit of chocolate, or a nice warm bed, is *intensely good*  

Words are just not made for explaining the difference. I do not claim to understand it myself, as I have just one path (and I cannot show any certificate, could be wrong), but I have experienced enough glimpses to know that there’s more to it without any doubt. Trying to explain it only sounds arrogant, so I’ll stop here. You did point out some differances yourself, though. Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing!

Dan Jones --


Yes, you can stop practicing now, you have it all figured out!  

It might help to think of this as a series of layers - shallow insights followed by deeper and deeper insights. The deeper insights are progressively more subtle but also collectively more penetrating about the process of mind. There are insights that are hidden from you for quite some time and that take a lot of work to unveil. Some require previous insights that uncover the habits and tendencies that allow the insight to occur. I think that's a more detailed way of saying there's a difference between understanding this intellectually and what I call "grokking" deeply, truly knowing and having insights become intuition and habit.

Someone put it very well in some other thread recently: why would an awakened person be unable to do things that others can do? (it was put more eloquently, but I don’t remember the wording). Being embedded in experience allows for engagement with the world that we inhabit as human beings. It allows for social and intimate relationships with other living beings. Didn’t Daniel write something like that too? That transcendence occurs at the cost of intimate experience and intimate experience occurs at the cost of transcendence? Something like that. As human beings, arahants would be very limited if they were not able to be embedded in experience too, don’t you think?

As you're saying, it's not one or the other, it's both. If it were one or the other I'd have stopped practicing long ago. I like my humanity and all that goes along with it. In fact, awakening has deepened and vastly enriched my relationship with the world.

I’m very glad to hear that, both for your sake and for all who are walking the path. It warms my heart. I have had some small glimpses of that as well, and that took me by surprise. I think I may have thought that I was looking for a way out of it all, you know, the transcendense part. I know that I used to feel sooooo tired of the human stuff - so repetitive, so predictable, so unfulfilling, so vain... I cannot recall feeling that way since the assumed stream entry. It’s certainly not like I’m happy-go-lucky all the time, but I do not feel like it’s all meaningless (in a mundane sense) anymore. I no longer feel like I’m 10000 years old and that everything is ”been there, done that, bought the damn t-shirt and wore it until only rags remained”. The despair and apathy are gone. I remember suddenly being infused with a great appreciation for things that I had previously taken for granted or even frowned upon. Such as people’s smalltalk. Suddenly I could see how seemingly banal phrases were bridges set up in new territory, opening up for vulnerability and trust. I was touched by the beauty. The most sentimental aspects of this new experience didn’t last that long, but traces of it remain. Paradoxically, the clearer I can glimpse emptiness, the more alive the world seems.

Uh, it sounds so goofy when I try to put it into words.

Anyway... Since the moment of stream entry, I have wanted to life this life to its fullest, pretty much as it is. To just be present to what happens to show up. Before that, it was pretty much a mix of assumed duties, cravings, aversions, and quite a lot of just enduring it and doing stuff to make the time pass by quicker - with a twist of huge anxiety for wasting it.

Let me put it like this: circumstances differ. A pre-path meditator finds some situations more challenging than others. When sleep-deprived and hungry and in mourning, things are tougher than when well-rested, well-nourished and knowing that one’s loved ones are all okay. The baseline varies, depending on circumstances. The same goes for arahants, but their baseline is higher in general in comparison to the pre-path meditator. Also, the changes to the baseline depending on circumstances are probably less dramatic.

EDIT: To clarify, the baseline I’m referring to is the ability to stay mindful of one’s reactions and stuff like that. Also, this is just a guess. Feel free to correct it!

https://twitter.com/KennethFolk/status/1163625819119505413

Thanks goodness!

hehe, oops   Papanca incoming, take immediate steps to evade, return to practice! 

Hehe, I remember hating smalltalk, then after some practice, a phase where for like a whole 2-3 months and with significant afterglow, it was like smalltalk about the weather suddenly became the most pertinent and profound talk, like 'hey, we're both sentient beings in this environment, lets note our common relationship with nature'  And it was one of the greatest things to do, metta and just shared experiencing of this world. Small-talk became *the most profound* talk

Around this phase / time were also weirder insights/intuitions/shifts-in-view-based-on-experience like "wow, trees are sentient" and "awareness is just change itself" (I no longer held the view of it being some how 'in the head' thank christ!) however, reified both of these insights and kinda made nice confusion "trying" to get into that state again  Usually some subtle image of something 'in the head' going 'out there' and 'merging' in a way that was 'non-dualistic'. lol, big mess there. It came from good solid novel experiences, were more states that were completely novel, then my philosophical / linguistic mode kicked in and tried to make sense of it all, and came up with phrases like 'trees are sentient' 'wow, this must be joshu's oak tree in the garden' and so on  Now I'm just like 'yeah, whatever, man, cool shit though'

Yeah the corruptions of insight: "ah this must be it" <inevitably 3 months later> Nope, or is it I just regressed? <6 months later> Nope.

Yeah trying to use words / concepts to describe reality is like trying to suck the world in through a straw. 

That’s a very catchy phrase, and a vivid illustration. Did you invent it?

Honestly, I don't know! 

It was just there in my mind 2 days ago. I'm suspicious of myself, maybe I read it somewhere and conceitedly want to claim it as mine. 

EDIT: would have been in some practice and walk after listening to Sayadaw Vivekananda talk about relative and ultimate reality in his recent retreats on dhamma seed, maybe some thing in that talk triggered that thought. 

It is dependently originated then. Of course.

lol, maybe, no, yes, I don't know. Tell you what though, where ever it came from, I'm grateful at least +1 person understood it, it was on my mind the other day then I thought of telling someone, then I thought it might be in the 'too crazy to say' and 'they won't understand' basket. 

It was great!

Heh. I like it too! Very apt.

"papanca"

Sounds like tropical fruit, doesn't it?

It even feels better in the mouth than the actual fruit does... I had to google the exact meaning of the word, although I have heard it in dharma talks. Great word. Very sticky too.

Oh, ..... very excited.... very good.... oh ! It's been an honor (although conceited 'here I am!') to be somehow implicated in the causal network of incidences that lead to you first hearing the term "papanca"  a Pali word meaning the "conceptualization of the world through the use of ever-expanding language and concepts" ... "It is intended to elucidate reality, although it has the unexpected result of blotting out or reducing direct nonverbal sensory perception."

Papanca: elucidated by Ajahn Amaro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzUPNw8YTCY

sutta central

The suttas: let's just talk about them for one hot minute...

Are (mostly) descriptions of causal networks that occur in experience "this leads to this" "that leads to that" but it's almost ontology-frei ("almost" because it's sufficiently unsystematic enough to be a 'good enough' / 'really good' description of reality) 

... 

Log on to sutta central and search for the uses  and mentions of the word "papanca" by the buddha you will find the causes and conditions for "conceptual proliferation" - which have a limited number of core causes, that include *identification*, *conceit* and *craving*

This is like getting the crib notes: it's probably bad for you if you have a sincere practice of *reading the actual book*.

However: in the interest of *shared enthusiasm* and *enjoyment* I do say these (stupid) things  

This is like "down the rabbit hole" stuff for career intellectuals (or as we call them these days, with less gravitas (noting for the developments in capital) "geeks" or "aspies" or "hackers"  

There are causes and conditions for conceptualization and *you* can notice this [assuming sufficient interest and ability to notice the natural breath].

Anyway, I should STFU right now as there's a link to a contemporaneous master of this material and practice and there's a link to a 2500 year old sauce I got onto this just like 2 years ago and it was the best.

This is called "papanca for understanding papanca" ;)

It was from Ajahn Amaro I heard it! I just needed to hear it again and take my time to look it up for the meaning to stick as much as the word itself. Maybe I should listen to that video again. It was a while ago now and I find that great dharma talks deserve more than one listening. Thanks for the reminder!

...

Haha, I like your humor.

In general, DhO is such a treasure for geaky humor and geeky amuzements in exciting details. Love it.

trumpy, you should check out papanca, it's fabulous, I know Great Things about papanca.

it's a real issue though

when people we see with good efforts and motivations get involved *some cause* and then maybe fall into praise and blame, they feel insufficient for their efforts. or they're spending a lot of efforts trying to maintain some view or self, they just want to be recognized, it's some manifestation of metta, but it's distorted because of our culture.

may we understand the causes and conditions for suffering, I can do my *(concieted) part.

I'm here to understand sufffering. 

I think that's the path of least resistance  

I have conciet,
I have suffering.

May the merits I do manage to generate( pretty slim) ( and if it is the case by some cosmic weird co-incidence and certainly not because of my wanting, not-wanting and just plain 'ol ignoring) as a result of my efforts, may the fruits of those (if/when there are) be for the benefit of all beings, my parents, my teachers, my sister, my family, my fellow dhamma farers, all sentient beings, flying or earth-dwelling, known and unknown, may they all be free of emnity, danger, ill-will, conciet, may they in their efforts find a joyful ease that leads towards their benefit, happiness and welfare  

be free of praise and blame, of feelings of *being* grounded in inferiority, superiority and equality

may all beings be happy

Haha, don’t tempt me! I’m sure you do and I’m sure it’s fascinating stuff, but I think I’ll practice instead. But I can listen to Ajahn Amaro while walking to and from yoga class, so that I’ll do.

Much gratitude towards this community, 


God bless the TCP/IP protocol and software,

some how because of all of this I managed to make a journey and was convinced to put an effort towards going to another country and finding a wonderful meditation centre where I had the unspeakably good luck to sit and realize at least a couple of beautiful pleasures of what it is like to have the conditions to sit and see what it's like to be sentient. 

Blessings to all  

Yeah, I'm in one of those situations where the listening to Amaro on youtube might be the practice I get that day, the sit is almost impossible feeling, so I can go to just hearing just the tone of the voice and the possibility. I've been in those situations where everything was going so well that listening to a dhamma talk would seem like some unwelcome interruption to practice and like a bunch of words that would fall utterly short of what this body and mind would present. Just not there right now. It's a bit sad because I can recall those experiences of being with some sort of intuitive wisdom, like a friend, face to face, a universal comedian Ajahn Amaro is pretty close to a universal friend though hah Thank YouTube

Now we should all jump in the river with our little rafts and try to reach the other side  

It will come back, if you practice. Just sayin’. The subjectively bad meditation experiences are what enables the insights that make it come back.