Middle Paths Question

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Nickolas Grabovac, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 1:21 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 1:21 PM

Middle Paths Question

Posts: 19 Join Date: 2/10/11 Recent Posts
While doing the "daily life" practice for the middle paths, I have been working with two different ways of approaching the practice and would love some clarification about how much to emphasize one over the other (or not).

The first way I've being practicing is, while going about my day, noticing every time I have a sense of a self (what I'm going to call 'selfing' in this post) and observing what sensations are involved in creating that sense of self. I then pay attention to those sensations and, usually after a few seconds (at most), the sense of self disappears and I am left with a real-time experience of not-self. By 'real-time not-self', what I mean is that, at that particular moment, I have no sense of a sense of self constructed from the sensations I am experiencing. I experience a sense of immediacy and intimacy with the things around me. Colors seem brighter and more vivid. Trees are extraordinary. Tall buildings amazing. Like seeing things for the first time. I notice things that I have never noticed before about a place, even if I had been in that place hundreds of times before. There is a panoramic perspective. Anyway, after the sense of self disappears, it reappears again at some point later (could be a few moments or a few minutes later) and then I repeat the noticing until the selfing passes away, etc. Let's call this approach the 'chasing the tail of the dog method' or CTD. Incidentally, a sense of a self seems (from what I can tell so far) to be mostly constructed from sensations in the eyes, lips and a slight tension in the gut, and the sound of my voice.

The second way I've been practicing is to not concern myself with the sensations involved in selfing, but rather to just pay close attention to everything around me as I go about my day. What I find with this approach (let's call it the 'Just Pay Attention' method or JPA) is that, when I'm really paying attention to my experience, the selfing seems to pass away all on it's own, without me needing to chase it or track it down. JPA feels, in some ways, similar to samatha practice in that whenever I notice that I'm selfing, it reminds me to pay more attention to what I'm experiencing, and then the selfing drops away (kind of like bringing the attention back to the breath in samatha practice, after noticing that the attention has wandered).

So, to restate my question: should I do more CTD than JPA? Vice-versa? Doesn't matter? Neither? If neither, I'd really appreciate some suggestions on to how to practice in daily life. My intuition tells me to emphasize the JPA approach, but that both are useful.

Cheers,

Nick
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 2:14 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 2:14 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Nickolas Grabovac:

So, to restate my question: should I do more CTD than JPA? Vice-versa? Doesn't matter? Neither? If neither, I'd really appreciate some suggestions on to how to practice in daily life. My intuition tells me to emphasize the JPA approach, but that both are useful.

Your last statement is probably closer to a practical truth that you can use on a daily basis. When in doubt, follow your intuition and make adjustments from there (when needed). Ideally, what you want to eventually be able to do is to attenuate and eliminate the "sense of self" from the underlying tendencies (the asavas) of the mind when viewing reality in real time. This process takes time to perfect, though.

The asavas are traditionally described as being "taints" that obstructs progress toward enlightenment. They are also described as "the influxes or intoxicants, a group of mental defilements." The four primary being such phenomena as sensual passion, states of being, speculative views or opinions, and ignorance, primarily ignorance of this process and how it conditions the mind in its knee jerk reactions. With the cultivation of mindfulness (sati), in much the way that you have described, one is eventually able to remove these knee jerk tendencies of the mind, and thus to begin living more at ease.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 2:36 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 2:30 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
I'd say do whichever seems to work the best. Try both, see the effects of trying each one, etc. Play around with them.

Does your sense of self really disappear completely for those few moments? It's nice no? Is there any suffering when the sense of self isn't there?

A good exercise might be to do that (have the self in abeyance) for as long as possible, maybe even get rid of it entirely so it can't re-arise. Whenever it does, try to find out why, so that that particular reason for it re-arising doesn't happen again.
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Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 4:47 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 4:47 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Sneak wee AF suggestion in there Claudiu? emoticon
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Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 5:01 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 5:01 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Whereabouts do you think you "are" on the Paths?

I'd throw in a guess at 3rd based on your descriptions of daily experience, but I could be wrong. Either way, I think Ian's bang on it with that reply and maintaining a natural approach certainly makes sense at this point. The first description sounds like a PCE, or what Kenneth Folk describes as Direct Mode (in my experience they both flow in the same way), and it is truly as delicious and beautiful as it seems however it's just a mode of perception, in my opinion, although others would disagree.

The second description sounds like my life over the past few months, just being with the world and paying attention so I can only recommend this if "4th Path", if we're using this particular model, is what you're aiming for. An organic approach is what Daniel Ingram recommended when I asked him about making a push for 4th Path so it seems that you're already on your way.

Good luck with your journey and keep us posted on what's happening.

Metta & Mudita,
- Tommy
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Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/11 7:03 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 7:13 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Hey Tommy,

I would be careful equating Direct Mode and PCEs. I believe Direct Mode is just being attentive to sensations within the body, grounding "emotions" in the physical body. PCEs may result from this practice, but I do not believe them to be the one and the same. The sensations that one has to keep the hand on as the "deadman switch" are not something that one needs to even worry about nor keep any hand on (as a deadman switch) in a full blown PCE. Here I am distinguishing from those experiences which we may call a low grade PCE but really they are just a high grade EE. Direct mode can be a way to get a PCE, but I think they need to be distinguished and not seen as the same as.

emoticon

Edited to add: You say it is just a mode of perception, yet why does Kenneth teach Direct Mode? Is it not to teach a yogi to "ground emotions" and see emotion as compounded and thus cutting out the mental component leaving just the sensations? I think Kenneth talked of it as a way to train the mind to stop "glomming". A PCE, as far as Ive experienced them, is one step further. It teaches and convinces one that the sense of "being" is equal to affective feelings, cause and effect, where suffering seems born from. And with such constant continued experience of PCE mode, "I" as that sense of "being" is eventually convinced to not arise anymore. I believe that both Direct Mode and PCE practice seem to have a common goal of sorts.

DM (as far as I understood Kenneth) aims to impress on the mind/body organism that "glomming" is not necessary and is in fact peaceful to not glom especially unpleasant emotions (but in my experience it lead to a "glomming" of a subtle affective equanimous sense of wellbeing). But I think it stops there unless one wishes to use it as a tool to trigger PCEs. PCE practice goes one step further and shows that a sense of "being" is not necessary and without it it is in fact peaceful in a non-affective way. This whole mind body organism with the sense of being, is shown that the sense of "being" need not "be". DM in my experience falls short of this. It may trigger PCEs, but (for me at least) it helped to cultivate very subtle affective equanimity and sense of wellbeing, but the sense of "being" still continuing. The proof is in enough full blown real PCEs over quite a bit of practice (and not just bordering high grade EEs which need to be distinguished).
My 2 cents :--)
, modified 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 8:02 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/28/11 7:53 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Hi Nickolas -

I cannot offer you any answer. As you, I keep at (to use your phrase) the JPA. I can tell you that as I do this, the more "i" enters well-condition, and the more returning-I understands the common phrase "may all beings be happy and have the causes for happiness".

Is your visual field normal (versus, say, pixilating/mobile)? For what reasons/occurrences do you leave JPA*? In JPA do you have any sense of Awareness/Observer? What sensations do you feel as soon as JPA leaves, and where do you feel them; are there connected thoughts or just an Observer of thusness?




*
To extend from Ian, are the tendency-habits recognized?
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Pål S, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/11 4:23 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/11 4:23 AM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Try this:

do
CTD
until
'real-time not-self'
then do
JPA
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Nickolas Grabovac, modified 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:13 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:13 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 19 Join Date: 2/10/11 Recent Posts
Ian And:
Ideally, what you want to eventually be able to do is to attenuate and eliminate the "sense of self" from the underlying tendencies (the asavas) of the mind when viewing reality in real time.


So, are you saying that, it is not so much eliminating the asavas themselves, rather it is eliminating the construction of a "sense of self" from the asavas?
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Nickolas Grabovac, modified 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:23 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:23 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 19 Join Date: 2/10/11 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
Whereabouts do you think you "are" on the Paths?


My guess is somewhere post 2nd path. I got stream entry back in February of 2011 and pretty sure I got 2nd path in early March (it was after this point that walking around without selfing really started to happen).

Tommy M:
The first description sounds like a PCE, or what Kenneth Folk describes as Direct Mode (in my experience they both flow in the same way), and it is truly as delicious and beautiful as it seems however it's just a mode of perception, in my opinion, although others would disagree.


Don't really know much about PCEs or Direct Mode (need to read up about those), so I can't comment on that. What I find interesting is how easy it is to get attached to this 'mode of perception', and how quickly selfing returns as soon as that happens.

Tommy M:
The second description sounds like my life over the past few months, just being with the world and paying attention so I can only recommend this if "4th Path", if we're using this particular model, is what you're aiming for. An organic approach is what Daniel Ingram recommended when I asked him about making a push for 4th Path so it seems that you're already on your way.


I doubt that I'm on 4th Path, as I understand that getting 3rd Path is a big jump, and it doesn't seem like I've experienced that.

Tommy M:
Good luck with your journey and keep us posted on what's happening.

Thanks for your encouragement!
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Nickolas Grabovac, modified 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:38 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 7:35 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 19 Join Date: 2/10/11 Recent Posts
katy s:
I can tell you that as I do this, the more "i" enters well-condition, and the more returning-I understands the common phrase "may all beings be happy and have the causes for happiness".

I like the way you put that. That makes a lot of sense.

katy s:
Is your visual field normal (versus, say, pixilating/mobile)? For what reasons/occurrences do you leave JPA*? In JPA do you have any sense of Awareness/Observer? What sensations do you feel as soon as JPA leaves, and where do you feel them; are there connected thoughts or just an Observer of thusness?

My visual field is normal. So far, here is how I experience leaving JPA:

I will notice a perceptual shift out of 'selfless mode', usually just by noticing the 'wow factor' diminishing. It feels almost like a filter being placed between me and everything else. Paying attention to sensations, I then usually notice either an area of physical tension in the body, or a kind of 'self-referencing' going on - almost like a habitual (that's what it feels like) 'checking to see if I'm still there'. Often both with be present. Upon further investigation, the tension is caused by attachment or aversion to something. Often, the attachment is to the 'selfless' experience itself - It is so fantastic, I get attached to it and want to keep it going, which, ironically, shuts it down. Often the aversion has to do with a fear of 'losing myself', which is exactly what is happening =).
, modified 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 9:27 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/2/11 9:27 PM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
"Don't really know much about PCEs or Direct Mode (need to read up about those), so I can't comment on that."

So, what happens while you are not fulfilling this need? (I will not hold my breathe. I need to breathe.)

"My visual field is normal."
Ok. Would you consider describing 30 seconds of the seeing of trees (if you are near some) and 30 seconds of seeing your computer monitor/tablet when it is turned off after doing those activities carefully for the next week (say, fifty times)? Can do longer or shorter times.

So far, here is how I experience leaving JPA:

I will notice a perceptual shift out of 'selfless mode', usually just by noticing the 'wow factor' diminishing. It feels almost like a filter being placed between me and everything else. Paying attention to sensations, I then usually notice either an area of physical tension in the body, or a kind of 'self-referencing' going on - almost like a habitual (that's what it feels like) 'checking to see if I'm still there'. Often both with be present. Upon further investigation, the tension is caused by attachment or aversion to something. Often, the attachment is to the 'selfless' experience itself - It is so fantastic, I get attached to it and want to keep it going, which, ironically, shuts it down. Often the aversion has to do with a fear of 'losing myself', which is exactly what is happening =).


Useful starting description. If you are interested, then:
would you report very closely on the "wow factor", the diminishing, and those aspects that are causing "almost like...me and everything else" shift?

Selfless mode: I suggest that sometimes being on the DhO is self-mode, and, then, being fecking lean about it at every natural opportunity is like sprinting when sprinting-energy and sprinting-commitment are together at once. The more I fatten on the DhO the more I, which is also energizing, timely and as useful - like fat for the brain, any brain, self or no self. So, it's same-same, but if you came to the DhO with some vigor and speed (momentum) to take advantage of, then sprint. I would get exhausted on some effort before spilling energy on "need to read up about [PCEs or Direct Mode]".

There can be an athletic/endurance/up-intensity quality to some of this after equanimity; like work hard, play hard. Maybe you are being polite to each respondent (and not slamming the gate for sprinter push) and/or my thinking is disconnected from what you wrote and self-absorbed. Do you have vigor right now to push an effort to exhaustion, or is your mind circling for a conceptual clue?

"I get attached to it and want to keep it going, which, ironically, shuts it down."
I understand this

"Often the aversion has to do with a fear of 'losing myself', which is exactly what is happening =)"
I understand this, no longer feel this.
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 5/3/11 2:09 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/3/11 2:09 AM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Nickolas Grabovac:
Ian And:
Ideally, what you want to eventually be able to do is to attenuate and eliminate the "sense of self" from the underlying tendencies (the asavas) of the mind when viewing reality in real time.


So, are you saying that, it is not so much eliminating the asavas themselves, rather it is eliminating the construction of a "sense of self" from the asavas?

No. That's a mis-reading. The asavas contain the sense of self and are wrapped up in the underlying tendencies to view self as being part of every experience you have. You have to eliminate the asavas altogether.

Sometimes the traditional Theravada way of explaining this can become confusing in this way. At AN 6.63 the three taints are defined as being (1) the taint of sensual desire, (2) the taint of desire for becoming, and (3) the taint of ignorance (in viewing reality).

"I-making" is regarded as the function of wrong view (the view of self), "mine-making" of craving. The root conceit is the conceit "I am" (asmimana), so conceit is also responsible for "I-making."

Thus, related to the Three Taints are the asavas, or mental fermentations of: sensual passion, states of being, (wrong) views, and ignorance. These are also referred to as four bonds. Release or security from these four bonds is tantamount to achieving arahatta (arahatship) or nibbana.
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Meggo mu, modified 12 Years ago at 5/3/11 2:56 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/3/11 2:55 AM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 29 Join Date: 3/26/11 Recent Posts
Nickolas Grabovac:
I experience a sense of immediacy and intimacy with the things around me. Colors seem brighter and more vivid. Trees are extraordinary. Tall buildings amazing. Like seeing things for the first time. I notice things that I have never noticed before about a place, even if I had been in that place hundreds of times before. There is a panoramic perspective.


thats strange i have had exactly the same expieriences in the last few weeks, although i am sure i am not even a stream enterer. just doing some samatha practice.
maybe these are just the symptoms of a pce/ ee?
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Eric B, modified 12 Years ago at 5/4/11 11:59 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/4/11 11:59 AM

RE: Middle Paths Question

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Meggo Mu Mu:
Nickolas Grabovac:
I experience a sense of immediacy and intimacy with the things around me. Colors seem brighter and more vivid. Trees are extraordinary. Tall buildings amazing. Like seeing things for the first time. I notice things that I have never noticed before about a place, even if I had been in that place hundreds of times before. There is a panoramic perspective.


thats strange i have had exactly the same expieriences in the last few weeks, although i am sure i am not even a stream enterer. just doing some samatha practice.
maybe these are just the symptoms of a pce/ ee?


I chanced into experiences like these from time to time when I was just doing samata practice. Now in mid/high equanimity they seem easier to fall into just by looking at the trees, where tall buildings meet the sky or the space between tall buildings, and brick walls. With the brick walls, if there is a green tinge of lichen/moss/slime growing in places it seems to really stand out. The panoramic persepective became more evident as I pushed further into equanimity (maybe it was always there and I only then came to fully appreciate it). I still haven't gotten stream entry.