Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

An Eternal Now, modified 9 Months ago.

Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Someone posted this on my group and I thought it is good to share this here. His practice background includes the mahasi path and fruitions, 8 jhanas, as well as what I call I Am and one mind. He just attained MCTB 4th path from the looks of it, two weeks ago.

https://youtu.be/ZGN9nCJ33Tk


update: New video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQmBSv5aFC8
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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He posts meditation notes on his instagram being_frank_yang
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Dustin, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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An Eternal Now:
He posts meditation notes on his instagram being_frank_yang


Really good to watch. Thanks for sharing!
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Soft core por... er, dharma.
Tim Farrington, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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emoticon

bonus!
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Alesh Vyhnal, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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What a deranged idiot! emoticon
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Noah D, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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This is fascinating.  He has a wide range of possibly contradictory interests (that I relate to) & a lot of youtube followers.  

Edit: I thought this part was pretty funny https://youtu.be/ZGN9nCJ33Tk?t=609
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Noah D, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Yeah I mean he clearly works as a social media influencer for a living & is necessarily putting on a show.  But it is a unique show that intersects with prag dharm, so what's not to like (other than the misogyny)?  Regardless of where he is on the lines & levels of spiritual evolution, I am happy that the video exists.  I also like that this is popping up & also things like Midnight Gospel on Netflix (which references lots of pragdharm things) are popping up.  Gradually the population is realizing that the only thing to do is examine the sensations of this very moment (or maybe now I am manic).
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Noah D, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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I picked up the problematic elements of Frank Yang's content from other videos & posts, not that one.  It gets much weirder...

That's annoying that Mind of a Chef was removed.  The associated youtube channel has a lot of it still.

You're speaking of right attitude.  Nothing like some gusto to counter dukkha.  Cutting edge for me right now as well.  Where am I needlessly antidoting tension in my life with advanced spiritual awareness techniques when all I need is plain old fashioned 'hurrah' instead?  Apparently a lot of places the more I investigate. 
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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His breakthrough is definitely genuine and descriptions match mine (as well as MCTB, I know).

But his eyes... they look just like mine after my breakthrough last year in terms of intensity of experience. (details: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-magical-fairytale-like-wonderland.html )

Now my eyes and facial expressions are more normal, especially after John Tan ('Thusness') told me not to open my eyes so wide lest I trigger another energy imbalance.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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[12:15 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: If one does not penetrate deeply into DO and Emptiness, then he must resort back into seeing the deep dark abyss of silence.
[12:17 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: The opposite side of vivid presence must b integrated.
[12:21 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
[12:21 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: is it like the cessation he mentioned?
[12:22 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: he said consciousness blinks out for him everyday
[12:22 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in a meditative state
[12:22 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: He overlook cessation, many do when presence vivid aliveness is revealed.
[12:22 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: i think he still access cessation everyday due to mahasi practice
[12:23 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: also 8 jhanas
[12:23 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: That is not important...everyone knows sensations blink in and out of existence...it is how one penetrates and integrate with mature insights.
[12:23 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[12:25 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: Look at his eyes and expressions like u wanted to look at the surrounding as if there is more to see...more to feel...lol
[12:27 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: thats how i looked like last year lol
[12:27 PM, 6/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: now more normal
[12:28 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: When one has same insight of presence from anatta directed into silence, then the "wanting" to be more alive, more vivid, more radiance will be balanced...
[12:28 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: Buddhism imo has its unique way of dealing with this balance...
[12:29 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: Taoism focuses deep into this abyss of darkness ... But a balance is needed...
[12:30 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: Like when u hear sound, it is always silence/sound...the flow of music is also the continuous flow of silence...
[12:30 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: Can u hear that?
[12:39 PM, 6/7/2020] John Tan: In total exertion, an instantaneous arising of sound exhaust everything.  Just that "tingsss"....

For a Taoist master, the deep dark abyss gives rise to that sound...same immensity and power...

Can u feel both?
Brian, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Just speaking frankly in the hopes that it could help you, when you start casually talking about "misogyny" and "problematic", it gives me much more concern about your mind than the mind of the person you're talking about.
An Eternal Now, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
I can certainly understand the concerns about the 'misogyny' part.. Also I think I saw a post on IG while I was scanning through yesterday in 2019 where he said he was sleeping with 100+ women within 1 year, years ago and that reduced to 30+, then 3 in 2019 and his spiritual practice realizations helped him overcome his sex addiction and ego fulfillment through women or something and for the most part he no longer get horny. I suppose things improve over time if one is on a genuine spiritual path and practicing hard. Everyone is a work in progress.
Brian, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Does that sound like misogyny to you?
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Brian:
Does that sound like misogyny to you?


and this   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ-6gQdsRO8
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Brandon Dayton, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Tim Farrington:
Brian:
Does that sound like misogyny to you?


and this   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ-6gQdsRO8

Part of the value of this video (to the degree that it is legit) is that it emphasizes how extremely narrow a part of human development awakening can potentially be. A multitude of axes of development, indeed.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Noah D:
This is fascinating.  He has a wide range of possibly contradictory interests (that I relate to) & a lot of youtube followers.  

Edit: I thought this part was pretty funny https://youtu.be/ZGN9nCJ33Tk?t=609


fuckety fuck! He is beyond duality--- he says he is non-local! i spent several years failing to write a physics/meditation novel called "Locality Fails." It was way too allegorical. This shit? lol. not allegorical.

thanks for the link, buddy.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Just reading your replies here. Yet to decide if it's worth clicking on that link ... might pop some popcorn tomorrow evening and give it a spin. 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Papa Che Dusko:
Just reading your replies here. Yet to decide if it's worth clicking on that link ... might pop some popcorn tomorrow evening and give it a spin. 

This needs beer, mate. Meet me in the Bar of Last Resort and we can watch it together. It is definitely worth clicking on that link, since you find me amusing occasionally. This guy is Amusing Plus Non-fucking-Stop.
Brian, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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I had never seen this guy, and at first he just seemed manic or something. But something about it rang true to me and I'm inclined to believe him. Inspired, I sat my own way (Vimalaramsi, 6R) and had an amazing sit.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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An Eternal Now:
Someone posted this on my group and I thought it is good to share this here. His practice background includes the mahasi path and fruitions, 8 jhanas, as well as what I call I Am and one mind. He just attained MCTB 4th path from the looks of it, two weeks ago.
Frank's slightly manic mind state is probably result of mahasi noting. It overflows from him =)
He reminds me of Daniel Ingram a lot so it might really be MCTB 4th path.
Still Daniel seems to have progressed further and have way more colorful vibrations. Still the same general practice framework so they have similar qualities about them.

I however think he speaks about lack of integration way too soon. What is two weeks? Nothing.
Though maybe it is not so much integration period as it is cooling off period and giving yourself time to verify own enlightenment somewhat.
Of course no one can blame anyone for being excited =)

I just hope he doesn't stop at just having effects and starts to clarify things that he experiences and put them in to words. Generating thoughts and words from them is the difference between enlightened spoon and enlightened human being.

ps. Having best moment in his life when reading manga... you do not really need enlightenment for that to be true emoticon
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Frank's slightly manic mind state is probably result of mahasi noting. It overflows from him
Naah he was always like that. He has ADHD too, so it partially explains his behaviour.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Frank's slightly manic mind state is probably result of mahasi noting. It overflows from him
Naah he was always like that. He has ADHD too, so it partially explains his behaviour.
In videos from few years ago he is also showing ADHD but in different way.

Daniel is better example of what these practices do so can be used for reference. Just see how he his mind seems to be constantly resetting from some sort of sensual overload that is constantly going on and he is picking his sensual experience and mind. He enjoys it but still it doesn't seem very natural.

Instead of throwing bunch of words alone I will throw an image about something called "response time compensation" or "overdrive" in LCD monitors which nicely represents how you can overdo things in your mind in visual form:



Sensations everywhere are self liberated, everything is enlightened, etc. nonsense is sign of overcorrection and generating perception artifacts.

Thing to note here would be that: if all these people did not think all these effects were some sort of sign of enlightenment and sign of sensation liberating themselves but instead signs of perception issues they would not experience pleasure from them but instead suffer tremendously.

What is saving grace for most people but also limiting factor in getting actually enlightened is lack of rigorous skepticism about everything that is being experienced. That is why people take results as they appear to them and even if theory behind them is nonsensical like everything modern dharma is selling is they will accept it. If they were skeptical about all this silly stuff they would of course not have time of their life with these effects and would still need to dwell further and this is why people are reluctant to question these things, they feel if they were to do so all this bubble would burst faster than it was formed. But at the end they would go further in their understating and their mind abilities if they did.

This is why one is said to be most likely spending many long kalpas at some level (3rd path is I remember correctly) before moving through it to attain actual enlightenment. It is not even subtle ignorance but major one... perhaps as they say the most obvious things are the most dificult to be seen.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Daniel is better example of what these practices do so can be used for reference
Could be, but then why some other 4th path teachers like Kenneth Folk doesn´t behave like that? If i remeber correctly both of them had the same teacher and did the same practices. I honestly though that it was just Daniel`s personality.
This is why one is said to be most likely spending many long kalpas at some level (3rd path is I remember correctly) before moving through it to attain actual enlightenment

.Well. if we go by the actual doctrine, you should spend 3 asamkheyas kalpas (countless aeons) to reach Buddhahood, and that was in the best of cases. It was the Vajrayana  that said it was possible in a single lifetime, i don´t believe their claim at all but that is another issue.







.
J C, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Kenneth has a very different model of the paths than Daniel - he defines "4th path" very differently, so they're not necessarily at the same place on the path just because they use the same label. I don't believe Kenneth claims to be 4th path as described by Daniel.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Really? From what i undestand they both agree on what Enlightenment is. The rest are just futher elaborations and semantics.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Really? From what i undestand they both agree on what Enlightenment is. The rest are just futher elaborations and semantics.
You know how primate males are like... emoticon
J C, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Ni Nurta:
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Really? From what i undestand they both agree on what Enlightenment is. The rest are just futher elaborations and semantics.
You know how primate males are like... emoticon

Definitely not just males who have power, control, and status issues around this stuff. Some of the worst offenders have been female.

They agree on some stuff and disagree on other stuff, but the point is they don't share the same view of the stages of enlightenment, don't use labels the same way, and so you can't directly compare.

Specifically, "4th path" is a specific term Daniel uses with a very high, specific standard, namely no sense of self, do-er, agent, controller, duality, or free will appearing, even for an instant.

Kenneth and his students have different views and use the term in a more general way that doesn't line up with Daniel's very specific usage.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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J C:
Definitely not just males who have power, control, and status issues around this stuff. Some of the worst offenders have been female.

With females it seems you only get the best and worst experiences and nothing in between emoticon

They agree on some stuff and disagree on other stuff, but the point is they don't share the same view of the stages of enlightenment, don't use labels the same way, and so you can't directly compare.

Specifically, "4th path" is a specific term Daniel uses with a very high, specific standard, namely no sense of self, do-er, agent, controller, duality, or free will appearing, even for an instant.

Kenneth and his students have different views and use the term in a more general way that doesn't line up with Daniel's very specific usage.

That was also my impression.
If I remember(/got it correctly) their models were more similar but over diverged over time. Kenneth invented " The Three Speed Transmission " and Daniel stays firmly by what he meant in MCTB.

I am more familiar with Daniel's take on it. I consider him "extreme" case from the image I posted earlier but perhaps because of that he is a good teacher. Like reference or lantern that is guiding sailors and whether they end up at the same bay or not doesn't really matter. What is important is having someone who got through with it this way and made it work so there is less fear to go there yourself.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Kenneth has a very different model of the paths than Daniel - he defines "4th path" very differently, so they're not necessarily at the same place on the path just because they use the same label. I don't believe Kenneth claims to be 4th path as described by Daniel.

Quotes and links, please.
J C, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Kenneth has a very different model of the paths than Daniel - he defines "4th path" very differently, so they're not necessarily at the same place on the path just because they use the same label. I don't believe Kenneth claims to be 4th path as described by Daniel.

Quotes and links, please.

Ok, here's Kenneth's 7-stage model:

"1) A&P
2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction"

"The emotional transformation means that you no longer glom together a specific set of mental and physical phenomena, invest it with self and call it an emotion. The information still comes in the form of raw materials (5 physical senses and mental impressions) but is no longer mistaken for a 'thing' called my emotion."

"The end of self-contraction is similar, but more subtle: the group of phenomena that was previously seen as the 'I' is no longer recognized as 'I'. There is only object."

Source: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12603-a-seven-stage-model-of-enlightenment-new-video

Analysis: so Kenneth states that after what he refers to as 4th path, there are two additional stages, the last of which involves seeing no-self. Under Daniel's model, this last stage is 4th path (see MCTB ). Clearly, Kenneth and Daniel define 4th path very differently.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 78 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
J C:
Chris Marti:
Kenneth has a very different model of the paths than Daniel - he defines "4th path" very differently, so they're not necessarily at the same place on the path just because they use the same label. I don't believe Kenneth claims to be 4th path as described by Daniel.

Quotes and links, please.

Ok, here's Kenneth's 7-stage model:

"1) A&P
2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction"

"The emotional transformation means that you no longer glom together a specific set of mental and physical phenomena, invest it with self and call it an emotion. The information still comes in the form of raw materials (5 physical senses and mental impressions) but is no longer mistaken for a 'thing' called my emotion."

"The end of self-contraction is similar, but more subtle: the group of phenomena that was previously seen as the 'I' is no longer recognized as 'I'. There is only object."

Source: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12603-a-seven-stage-model-of-enlightenment-new-video

Analysis: so Kenneth states that after what he refers to as 4th path, there are two additional stages, the last of which involves seeing no-self. Under Daniel's model, this last stage is 4th path (see MCTB ). Clearly, Kenneth and Daniel define 4th path very differently.
Alright.  They both agree with the end point? So i don´t understand you argument at all. They are both 4th path by MCTB standards.
J C, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
J C:
Chris Marti:
Kenneth has a very different model of the paths than Daniel - he defines "4th path" very differently, so they're not necessarily at the same place on the path just because they use the same label. I don't believe Kenneth claims to be 4th path as described by Daniel.

Quotes and links, please.

Ok, here's Kenneth's 7-stage model:

"1) A&P
2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction"

"The emotional transformation means that you no longer glom together a specific set of mental and physical phenomena, invest it with self and call it an emotion. The information still comes in the form of raw materials (5 physical senses and mental impressions) but is no longer mistaken for a 'thing' called my emotion."

"The end of self-contraction is similar, but more subtle: the group of phenomena that was previously seen as the 'I' is no longer recognized as 'I'. There is only object."

Source: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12603-a-seven-stage-model-of-enlightenment-new-video

Analysis: so Kenneth states that after what he refers to as 4th path, there are two additional stages, the last of which involves seeing no-self. Under Daniel's model, this last stage is 4th path (see MCTB ). Clearly, Kenneth and Daniel define 4th path very differently.
Alright.  They both agree with the end point? So i don´t understand you argument at all. They are both 4th path by MCTB standards.

This is a very touchy and sensitive issue. As Chris points out, there were a lot of bad feelings between the two for a long time.

The claim that Kenneth is "4th path by MCTB standards" is therefore very controversial and disputed, to say the least, and I am not aware of any statement by Kenneth to that effect.

They each have their own models which may not be directly comparable. Kenneth claims 4th path in his model, which corresponds to Stage 5 in his 7-stage map; Daniel claims 4th path in his.

Looking at the last stage in Kenneth's 7-stage map, it seems very similar to Daniel's definition of 4th path in his model, which involves seeing no-self in all sensations. So maybe they do have the same, or similar, endpoints, though it is again difficult to compare directly.

Don't let the labels confuse you. Many, many people claim to be "4th path." It seems to mean something different to everyone, and sadly, no one seems to want to police the label and make statements challenging certain teachers' claims.

Especially for teachers who charge, which Kenneth and his students do, and Daniel and the Buddha believe is highly unethical to do, it is good marketing to bill yourself and your students as "4th path." Teachers who charge have consequently turned "4th path" into a marketing label with very little meaning, much like calling baby wipes "flushable."

I just know my own experience, which is that I claimed 4th path for years, was not sufficiently challenged by teachers whom I paid, and was finally given the excellent advice (by Daniel, on this message board) to not let the label of "4th path" prevent me from looking at the new layer that wants to be investigated.

He was far too polite and politic to say bluntly "JC, you ain't 4th path," which he should have, and which would have perhaps been the most ethical and helpful thing to do, but which might trigger stubborn pushback, who knows. Daniel doesn't ever seem to say that about anyone, sadly.

So I finally realized I was not 4th path, and after realizing this was finally able to get to what I now believe is 3rd path, though I could of course be wrong about this as well.

But, before I realized that, as a way of trying to deal with the cognitive dissonance of being "4th path" but knowing deep down I wasn't done, I created several different models of enlightenment including stages beyond 4th path.

Many of them looked like Kenneth's 7-stage model.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 78 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
You are a little behind in the timeline.

Kenneth Folk latter added a new stage in his model and he claimed that he was in that last stage.

"Stage 8:.... As of this writing (April, 2012), I also consider myself to be at this stage.)"

http://web.archive.org/web/20130116164653/http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/A+9+Stage+Map+of+Developmental+Enlightenment

However, he never used those models again... Anyways, i prefer to not make those kinds of moral judgements... From the perspective of many, Daniel is slandering the Dharma with his heretical views and using the "Arhat" title for marketing purposes. I personally don´t believe that, i also don´t think charging for meditation classes is bad at all. But criticism is inevitable when shifting paradigms...
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
You are a little behind in the timeline.

Kenneth Folk latter added a new stage in his model and he claimed that he was in that last stage.

"Stage 8:.... As of this writing (April, 2012), I also consider myself to be at this stage.)"

http://web.archive.org/web/20130116164653/http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/A+9+Stage+Map+of+Developmental+Enlightenment

However, he never used those models again... Anyways, i prefer to not make those kinds of moral judgements... From the perspective of many, Daniel is slandering the Dharma with his heretical views and using the "Arhat" title for marketing purposes. I personally don´t believe that, i also don´t think charging for meditation classes is bad at all. But criticism is inevitable when shifting paradigms...

"Anyways, i prefer to not make those kinds of moral judgements..."

that's chickenshit. The Buddha on charging money for the Dharma is crystal clear, as was Jesus on charging for the Torah, or the Word of God. It's inconvenient, the house of modern cards trembles, but the morality is very clear.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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The Buddha on charging money for the Dharma is crystal clear, as was Jesus on charging for the Torah, or the Word of God. It's inconvenient, the house of modern cards trembles, but the morality is very clear.

This issue tends to generate a lot of discussion, very heartfelt discussion, with strong feelings behind people's beliefs about it.

I have permission to teach (whatever that means) and I've actually tried teaching once or twice. I never charged anyone anything because it made me feel guilty to charge for my fledgling attempts at it. I don't teach because I'm probably not very good at it and because I don't have the time I feel is required. I don't think the morality issue in the modern world is as clear as some do, but then I'm not planning to be a professional dharma teacher who has to somehow make a living at the same time.
agnostic, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

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Chris Marti:

I have permission to teach (whatever that means) and I've actually tried teaching once or twice. I never charged anyone anything because it made me feel guilty to charge for my fledgling attempts at it. I don't teach because I'm probably not very good at it and because I don't have the time I feel is required. I don't think the morality issue in the modern world is as clear as some do, but then I'm not planning to be a professional dharma teacher who has to somehow make a living at the same time.

I feel like you do a pretty good job guiding those of us who don't have teachers emoticon 
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 78 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
I guess so... The thing is that i don´t consider the word of the historical Buddha to be the ultimate. It is my personal belief that he wasn´t some kind of "omnniscient" non being that trascended humans and Gods... In my view he was still a human, still subject to ignorance, and some of his views could reflect that, for example his views on women, which seems to be just the result of the historical context he was in. Of course im slandering the dharma when i say this. To be fair i don´t ever consider myself to be a Theravada Buddhist. Just my two cents.
J C, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
I guess so... The thing is that i don´t consider the word of the historical Buddha to be the ultimate. It is my personal belief that he wasn´t some kind of "omnniscient" non being that trascended humans and Gods... In my view he was still a human, still subject to ignorance, and some of his views could reflect that, for example his views on women, which seems to be just the result of the historical context he was in. Of course im slandering the dharma when i say this. To be fair i don´t ever consider myself to be a Theravada Buddhist. Just my two cents.

No, you're not slandering the dharma!

Dharma also means "truth." Truth is what matters here. I seek truth, whether it agrees with the suttas or not. We don't know what the Buddha's actual teachings were - the suttas were written over a period of hundreds of years. We don't even know that the Buddha really existed.

The truth can never be slander.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
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Especially for teachers who charge, which Kenneth and his students do, and Daniel and the Buddha believe is highly unethical to do, it is good marketing to bill yourself and your students as "4th path." Teachers who charge have consequently turned "4th path" into a marketing label with very little meaning, much like calling baby wipes "flushable."
I hate to suspect that this may actually be close to the root of some of these lofty disputes. It's a fucking copyright battle, patent pending, and everybody brings in the lawyers to argue this sutta's precedents or that ones. No one can corner the market, but the "new and improved model" will often have a nice run, until the new and more improved one comes along.

Somebody like Frank sort of points up the farce of that. Reminds us that fourth path is something lived with joy and abandon and heedless compassion.

love, tim
Vladimir Zetko, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 23 Join Date: 1/5/19 Recent Posts
J C:
Especially for teachers who charge, which Kenneth and his students do, and Daniel and the Buddha believe is highly unethical to do, it is good marketing to bill yourself and your students as "4th path." Teachers who charge have consequently turned "4th path" into a marketing label with very little meaning, much like calling baby wipes "flushable."

 I do not want to argue with you on that, as based on your story your experience with these teachers is high and in addition to that I really appreciated the honesty of your post! I just have one comment:

For the last year I have worked with 3 of Folk's students. Two of them teach based on dana. The third one not only didn't but also charged a lot and this is why after the introductory chat I decided to stop.

To sum up, the Folk's students I know, do not have the same policy/style/approach not only with regards to money but also with regards to what they actually teach!
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 3787 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
The claim that Kenneth is "4th path by MCTB standards" is therefore very controversial and disputed, to say the least, and I am not aware of any statement by Kenneth to that effect.

Just to be fair and accurate, Kenneth claims 4th path in the MCTB model. He's said so many times. In one of his very first posts on the original DhO he made that clear. 

And again I feel the need to reiterate just how many models Kenneth Folk has proffered over the last fifteen years. It's a lot, and depending on what you want to assert about Kenneth Folk you can probably find support for your assertion in one of those many models. He has not done himself any favors in this regard.

And yes, to Tim Farrington, much of the model building was about marketing and distinguishing one teaching/teacher from others. And jealousy, as I have said in previous comments. Daniel Ingram took the time and the initiative to write MCTB and thereby became a prominent person in this dharma world. Kenneth can't finish anything he starts, so even years later, when finally started to write a book, he just dropped it later, like so many of his projects. So... Daniel gets the public kudos and Kenneth doesn't, even though they were and are friends, and share a dharma "tradition" in the pragmatic dharma community. Both of them are human beings, so you get what you get.

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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Yang: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 3787 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 Clearly, Kenneth and Daniel define 4th path very differently.

This really depends on which version of Kenneth Folk's dharma you're referring to. He's been through more evolutions in his models than I can count. Keep in mind, Kenneth's "thing" was often meant just to distinguish himself from Daniel Ingram, not to fundamentally disagree. There was an extended period of time during which there was a lot of jealousy and infighting between the two of them and so... yeah.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 571 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Could be, but then why some other 4th path teachers like Kenneth Folk doesn´t behave like that? If i remeber correctly both of them had the same teacher and did the same practices. I honestly though that it was just Daniel`s personality.

Because it is Daniel personality ~_^
I do not think Daniel and Kenneth agree completely on all details of 4th path but they certainly do meet on certain layer and seem to have similar processes happening inside them that are result of Vipassana.
I am also not really judging what kind of mind state is the best one here. As long as it suits its user then all is fine.
In the end those are just impulses that fire or don't fire inside of the brain and if rest of the brain interprets them as pleasurable then what is there to not like.

I am only saying that mind states you get are the result of practices you do (EDIT:// and interpretations you give to what is happening)
What should one do with pleasant mind states ultimately if not to see what they really are made from?
Practice clear view/perception on all sense doors, including unnamed and internal ones.

This is why one is said to be most likely spending many long kalpas at some level (3rd path is I remember correctly) before moving through it to attain actual enlightenment

.Well. if we go by the actual doctrine, you should spend 3 asamkheyas kalpas (countless aeons) to reach Buddhahood, and that was in the best of cases. It was the Vajrayana  that said it was possible in a single lifetime, i don´t believe their claim at all but that is another issue.

When universe gets destroyed it takes some time until it get to be rebuilt.

Wasn't it Buddha himself who said that reality being some kind of solid thing or whatever is some fancy-schmancy illusion?

Diamond sutta:
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows;
Like drops of dew, or like flashes of lightning;
Thusly should they be contemplated.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 78 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
I am only saying that mind states you get are the result of practices you do
Agree, i also have thinking everything you said about internal experience, spekticism and enlightenment-mental disorder similarities. Interesting stuff.
Wasn't it Buddha himself who said that reality being some kind of solid thing or whatever is some fancy-schmancy illusion?
I don`t fully get what are you trying to point here. I mean, it seems pretty clear that Indians back then really believe that you  should spend an infinite amount of time perfecting yourself and evolving in this dream, maya, ilussion (whatever you call it) in order to reach Buddhahood, it is not a metaphor at all. Of course you can be skeptict about this stuff, in the same way you can be skeptic about Vajrayana claims of Buddhahood in one lifetime etc.. In the end it is just faith. Peace!
.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 571 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
I don`t fully get what are you trying to point here

At some point in the path you are supposed to know what it means, I suppose.
I got enlightened while reading these words from Diamond sutta and contemplating their meaning in framework of existence of experience being only valid assumption I can really make about reality.

I mean, it seems pretty clear that Indians back then really believe that you should spend an infinite amount of time perfecting yourself and evolving in this dream, maya, ilussion (whatever you call it) in order to reach Buddhahood, it is not a metaphor at all. Of course you can be skeptict about this stuff, in the same way you can be skeptic about Vajrayana claims of Buddhahood in one lifetime etc.. In the end it is just faith. Peace!.

Sure you can do it in one life time.
Knowledge can shared and things can be worked togeter on.
Topic of enlightenment is not rocket science, you can ask anyone about how they do and maybe someone already did it. Universe is big place you know, full of beings like yourself. Even your body is full of being like yourself.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 78 Join Date: 9/12/18 Recent Posts
At some point in the path you are supposed to know what it means
I would have prefer if you try explain to me your point instead of just remind me im still a noob =( jejeje

Topic of enlightenment is not rocket science
Well it clearly is , we have many different traditions describing enlightenment in different ways, giving it different attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, others just attribute it to liberation, the dissolution of self etc...) and the many masters also differ in how long it will take. So i would say it is the contrary, tis very  difficult to deffine that what true enlightenment is, and we all are just making assumptions.
you can ask anyone about how they do and maybe someone already did it
.Well my definition of true enlightenment goes in line with the orthodox Mahayana sutras, especially the Queen Srimala sutra and the Ghandavyuha sutra. I don´t think any human has achieved that, and i certainly won´t believe it if someone tell me he did. My thinking in this regard agrees with Kenneth Folk`s. "There are no human saints"... 

Btw very interesting discussion. Thank you.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 3168 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Watching that video is certainly entertaining. I have a real interest in video production these days, and I learn a lot when I watch someone who has clearly been doing it a while like him.

His descriptions are also very interesting. If they hold up, and if he truly is experiencing what he says, that is pretty darn cool. Hopefully, time and honesty will help sort it all out. Yes, two weeks isn't long at all in this business. May all of that go well.

It is so interesting how small the world is, and how we have no idea where our words will go and who they will influence. May our words help many.

I truly miss the style of food he was eating: may have to make some here.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 1581 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"I truly miss the style of food he was eating: may have to make some here."

I haven't seen the video yet but find it funny you mention food as I've had a dream last night were you, Kenneth Folk and I were eating Pizzas together in some place with cream colored interior. Kenneth wasn't happy with the fact that you paid for the pizzas and I felt guilty for being broke and couldn't afford it.

No beer for me Tim! I'm only on coffee and black tea. 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Watching that video is certainly entertaining. I have a real interest in video production these days, and I learn a lot when I watch someone who has clearly been doing it a while like him.

His descriptions are also very interesting. If they hold up, and if he truly is experiencing what he says, that is pretty darn cool. Hopefully, time and honesty will help sort it all out. Yes, two weeks isn't long at all in this business. May all of that go well.

It is so interesting how small the world is, and how we have no idea where our words will go and who they will influence. May our words help many.

I truly miss the style of food he was eating: may have to make some here.

lol. again: "everybody at the core, is a fully enlightened (chomp comp) buddha. that's you, me, whatever. everybody. even this." (by which i think he meant his food, but i was tripping, by then)

May our words help many sentient beings, and even, apparently, certain kinds of food, to buddhahood.

love, tim
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Steph S, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 647 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
I love this. Good inspiration.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
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Steph, we owe An Eternal Now for this gift.
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Steph S, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 647 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Soh - If I ever meet you in person, I'll buy you as many beers (or beverage of your choice) as you want. 

I suppose the same goes for Frank. Or anyone who has got it done. There. All Arahants get free beers from me.

In the meantime, the best gift to everybody is becoming an Arahant oneself. emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Steph S:
Soh - If I ever meet you in person, I'll buy you as many beers (or beverage of your choice) as you want. 

I suppose the same goes for Frank. Or anyone who has got it done. There. All Arahants get free beers from me.

In the meantime, the best gift to everybody is becoming an Arahant oneself. emoticon
lol, Steph, I love you, but i doubt you can afford as many beers as i want. But I'll help you buy all Arahants a drink, count me in on that project for sure. And let's end by a round for the house, when all sentient beings and certain kinds of food (if i am reading Frank's enigmatic between-chomps wisdom right) are home in their buddha nature.
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Steph S, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 647 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Ha. Sorry I forgot that not everyone knows AEN's name is Soh. It's not a secret that I'm letting out because whenever he posts his convos with Thusness on DhO he leaves his own name, Soh, in the transcription. So I was addressing that to Soh.

I guess I'm off the hook for buying Tim drinks. LOL. Kidding. I'll have beers with you too.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this too much. So let's all just become Arahants, mmkay.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Steph S:
Ha. Sorry I forgot that not everyone knows AEN's name is Soh. It's not a secret that I'm letting out because whenever he posts his convos with Thusness on DhO he leaves his own name, Soh, in the transcription. So I was addressing that to Soh.

I guess I'm off the hook for buying Tim drinks. LOL. Kidding. I'll have beers with you too.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this too much. So let's all just become Arahants, mmkay.

lol, i thought it meant Silly Over-indulgence of Hilarity, and ended up with the bar tab! Poetic justice. what a narcissist i am, it's all about me.

Thank you, Soh, indeed. Your drink with Steph is on me.
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 910 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Steph S:
Soh - If I ever meet you in person, I'll buy you as many beers (or beverage of your choice) as you want. 

I suppose the same goes for Frank. Or anyone who has got it done. There. All Arahants get free beers from me.

In the meantime, the best gift to everybody is becoming an Arahant oneself. emoticon
>In the meantime, the best gift to everybody is becoming an Arahant oneself. emoticon
How true!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 1581 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Boy oh boy this Frank reeks of enlightenment! 
Would be nice to hear him talk in a few months or so when he calms the fluf down a bit. And he munches alot! As Im not "awakened" I can not sense those munches as "enlightened buddhas" but as VERY ANNOYING! emoticon 

All in all most stuff he said makes sense to me and I have no doubt in his awakening bling. But you would have to chain me and drag me to him to be my teacher emoticon like no thank you (unless he calms the fluf down).

I can see why Tim likes him! Birds of feather stick together emoticon emoticon I think this lad would be able to talk over you no probs emoticon you would have no chance to open your mouth mate LOL maybe this your teacher Tim emoticon emoticon emoticon 

just kidding emoticon (yes, Im being nice)
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 2418 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Boy oh boy this Frank reeks of enlightenment! 
Would be nice to hear him talk in a few months or so when he calms the fluf down a bit. And he munches alot! As Im not "awakened" I can not sense those munches as "enlightened buddhas" but as VERY ANNOYING! emoticon 

All in all most stuff he said makes sense to me and I have no doubt in his awakening bling. But you would have to chain me and drag me to him to be my teacher emoticon like no thank you (unless he calms the fluf down).

I can see why Tim likes him! Birds of feather stick together emoticonemoticon I think this lad would be able to talk over you no probs emoticon you would have no chance to open your mouth mate LOL maybe this your teacher Tim emoticonemoticonemoticon 

just kidding emoticon (yes, Im being nice)

lol, around this guy, i could finally relax, lol. no NEED to say the crazy shit, he al;ready said it and then some five minutes ago! Job done! bring out the cold ones! emoticon

you, being nice?  emoticon

love the fookin song, by the way. has the songwriters' union rep contacted your people yet, about the fees? emoticon
Hector, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Frank Young: Mahasi practitioner, just attained 4th path

Posts: 81 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Definitely seems manic at 3x speed playback emoticon I'm using this chrome extension

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