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DhO Hacked and Upgrade

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ATTENTION!: It appears that our server has been hacked through this version of Liferay, meaning it is no longer secure, and so expect instability as we deal with this and attempt to upgrade to Liferay 7, which we failed to be able to do last year the last time the team attempted it, but we have no choice at this point, so bear with us as we try again. Save any long posts in a text file before posting them. You can follow me on Twitter at @danielmingram for updates if the site is down. Apologies for any complexity this causes. We will work as fast as we can. We have backups of the database, so hopefully nothing will be lost. Thanks to all helping with this complex process.

 

 

 

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What chance do I have ? es pro 9/8/20 6:25 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? agnostic 9/8/20 10:54 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? SushiK 9/9/20 4:08 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/9/20 10:11 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Zachary 9/9/20 3:27 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/9/20 9:59 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/10/20 12:31 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 7:08 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:11 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 10:12 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:26 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 10:34 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:36 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 10:37 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 11:09 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 11:44 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 12:04 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 12:22 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 12:48 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 12:42 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 12:35 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 3:00 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/10/20 2:06 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 2:50 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/10/20 2:54 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/10/20 3:01 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 3:40 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/10/20 3:51 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:03 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? SushiK 9/10/20 10:01 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:10 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? agnostic 9/10/20 10:36 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/10/20 10:50 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/10/20 11:17 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/11/20 6:58 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/11/20 9:37 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/11/20 6:21 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Jarrett 9/11/20 6:56 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/11/20 9:35 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Olivier 9/11/20 11:54 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/12/20 4:14 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/12/20 8:13 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/12/20 10:29 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/12/20 10:29 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Jarrett 9/12/20 10:29 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/13/20 12:52 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/13/20 11:43 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/13/20 1:48 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/13/20 1:48 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/13/20 2:24 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/13/20 2:17 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/13/20 3:50 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 12:24 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Manuel 9/14/20 1:13 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 1:21 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 1:24 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 3:08 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 4:19 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 4:24 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 4:33 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 4:37 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 4:44 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 4:47 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 5:02 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 5:09 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 5:29 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 5:38 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 6:38 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 6:47 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 6:49 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/14/20 6:54 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/14/20 10:13 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/15/20 3:21 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/15/20 6:39 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/15/20 11:39 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/16/20 7:52 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/16/20 10:19 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? SushiK 9/16/20 11:10 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/17/20 12:26 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/17/20 11:12 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/17/20 12:48 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/17/20 1:12 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/17/20 2:00 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/17/20 9:19 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/17/20 10:44 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/17/20 11:25 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/18/20 12:04 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/18/20 12:12 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/18/20 5:42 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/18/20 6:01 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/19/20 9:59 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/19/20 10:09 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/19/20 11:29 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/19/20 11:32 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/19/20 11:54 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/19/20 1:14 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/19/20 1:18 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/19/20 1:52 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/19/20 2:31 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/19/20 3:25 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/20/20 12:44 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/20/20 2:38 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/20/20 8:59 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/20/20 9:13 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/20/20 9:36 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/20/20 2:25 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/20/20 2:28 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Olivier 9/20/20 2:34 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/20/20 3:22 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/20/20 4:04 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/20/20 4:25 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/21/20 12:10 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/21/20 5:01 PM
PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/22/20 11:24 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/22/20 3:40 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/22/20 7:06 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/23/20 5:17 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/24/20 7:13 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/24/20 7:34 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/24/20 8:30 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? shargrol 9/24/20 8:50 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/24/20 8:48 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/24/20 11:30 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/24/20 2:00 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/25/20 8:58 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/24/20 2:31 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/25/20 11:38 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/26/20 2:54 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/26/20 3:08 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/26/20 9:40 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/26/20 11:00 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/26/20 12:50 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/26/20 12:56 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/26/20 1:08 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/26/20 2:24 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Laurel Carrington 9/26/20 3:31 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/26/20 6:12 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/26/20 9:31 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/27/20 9:06 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 9:10 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/27/20 9:20 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/27/20 9:28 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/28/20 2:34 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/28/20 3:44 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/27/20 10:05 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 10:21 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/27/20 10:16 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 10:38 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 10:59 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 12:08 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 12:08 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 3:08 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 3:21 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/27/20 3:26 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 4:12 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? shargrol 9/27/20 4:36 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 6:42 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 7:48 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 7:54 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 8:03 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/27/20 9:06 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/28/20 12:01 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/28/20 12:41 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/28/20 12:33 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/28/20 12:37 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/28/20 1:39 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/28/20 2:23 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/28/20 2:48 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/28/20 12:09 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/28/20 7:36 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? SushiK 9/28/20 2:20 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/28/20 3:16 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Edward 9/27/20 10:45 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/27/20 10:48 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/27/20 11:01 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Chris Marti 9/27/20 9:15 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Siavash 9/26/20 11:30 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/27/20 3:17 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 5:27 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/27/20 8:28 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 8:50 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/27/20 11:11 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/27/20 11:59 AM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Ni Nurta 9/27/20 2:49 PM
RE: PRE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/27/20 11:50 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? shargrol 9/24/20 8:13 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Papa Che Dusko 9/18/20 3:23 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Jarrett 9/12/20 10:34 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/12/20 10:41 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Jarrett 9/12/20 10:47 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/12/20 12:52 PM
RE: What chance do I have ? es pro 9/13/20 10:42 AM
RE: What chance do I have ? Tim Farrington 9/11/20 5:05 AM
What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/8/20 6:25 PM
Hi there, sorry for all the posts and for being so whiny, I am apparently just desperate for consolation. Most ppl on this forum (and even Daniel Ingram) think what is happening to me is a classic dark night. I think it is a painful result of not surrendering to fear that came up, and of some really stupid mistakes (suicide attempts+accidental dismantling of psychic structure via meditation). I was dancing, singing, laughing all the time, until before I know it I became empty inside. But yeah basically I cannot see the other side and although I felt as though an angel was with me the other day insisting it is possible, the odds are not in my favour and here's why.
1) first and foremost, my breath is not automatic anymore as some people may have read. I think it's a result of this ego death thing I caused- surfacing all the unconscious parts of my mind incl the action of breathing. Why do I think it's a problem? From my discoveries, love happens when there is absence of craving and aversion; when there is no self. My self is there in every breath.
2) since the ego death thing things have gotten worse to a paramount extent. In April and May I was socializing, laughing, dancing, cooking (albeit still suffering) and after June I stopped doing all of that and just became a joyless zombie and my sense of humour is fully GONE. The only things I enjoy doing are playing volleyball, eating, and looking at old messages cuz I am so infatuated with my old self it's disgusting. Like at this point I am WAITING for my self to come back but only feel further and further from it.
3) my heart has nothing left in it really. Hugging my mom, cuddling with my cat, does nothing for me.
4) I have no more awareness of my body really, it's like full dissociation
5) I have no more ego sense of self ie might as well be high on mushrooms all the time (and even one trip traumatized me badly)
6) the grasping for love and equanimity is CONSTANT. Every loving interaction, cuddle, cry, there's the part of me that's grasping hoping it's that Big Bang heart opening that happened before.

I mean I want to listen to that angel you know but the way things have progressed points toward failure only. How could I ever progress back to equanimity? I have gone thru this dark night before, certain I'd be separate from love and equanimity forever , but things were different back then. Only one trauma instead of daily, heart still had some goodness within, and I was NOT grasping for love. Maybe once every couple weeks I'd worry about love and equanimity instead of literally around the clock. My heart then opened while kissing someone (I posted about it here a few years ago, what a time) and now my brain wants to recreate that moment cuz it thinks it will happen again. But seriously what chance do I have?! Like, what needs to happen is some sort of surrender, but my ego is getting only stronger and even my breath is an ego involved action now.
Some really kind people have posted things saying they've gone thru similar things and come out of it but most of my mind is in doubt right now, and thinks I am the only person in the world who this is happening to so severely. Are we SURE it's a dark night? -it isn't the presence of emotional pain, it's the absence of ANY feelings at all that is distressing .
thanks.. again....

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/8/20 10:54 PM as a reply to es pro.
I'm sorry ES, I don't know your history and it sounds like you are suffering a lot. But all I can say from reading your post is that feelings come and go, so getting attached to them will invariably cause suffering. I'm pretty sure we've all been through some variation of this AND thought our particular version was unique and the worst in some way AND many of us have come out the other side and can confidently tell you that it will pass if you just hang in there, give it time and keep investigating.
Best wishes 
George

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/9/20 4:08 AM as a reply to es pro.
Hi Es Pro, 

A few people with much more knowledge than me commented on your previous post and gave you some advise.
Did you try any of it since?

I know you think it won't help but what is the opportunity cost? Give it a try and if it doesn't get better just let us know and they might have some other suggestions :-)

The only things I enjoy doing are playing volleyball
You still enjoy playing volleyball which is a good thing :-)
4) I have no more awareness of my body really, it's like full dissociation

Don't you have awareness of your body when you play?
it's the absence of ANY feelings at all that is distressing 
 Same thing, what do you feel whenever you play?

I wish you well Es.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/9/20 10:11 AM as a reply to SushiK.
Thanks.. no I didn't try any of the advice cuz I'm Quite sure none of it can lead me to the love I seek.. I don't know what will...grace itself 
i barely feel anything when I play volleyball! And very very little body awareness.

and about this passing..well. It isn't about some painful sensation that needs to pass, it's more the opposite of love and equanimity... which isn't really guaranteed to pass :|

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/9/20 3:27 PM as a reply to es pro.
Hi es pro, 

My advice at this point would be to just keep going. It could take a long time for everything to settle and work itself out, it will require a lot of patience and resilience to endure this difficult period.

I think writing and journaling could also be helpful for you to do. You could do it on this site or privately in your own notebook. Every day, as much as you want, just keep writing out everything that is coming into your mind: your doubts, your fears, your suspicions, your ideas, anything that comes to mind. Just keep pouring it out. You could even try challenging certain thought patterns and beliefs you may have, writing out counter-arguments and so forth. You could fill up pages and pages doing this. There is something about seeing its thoughts written out that can help the mind let go and relax a bit around certain intense patterns and emotions. 

Keep playing volleyball, keep cooking, keep spending time with your mother and cat even if it doesn't feel like it used to. Keep seeing your therapist and working with them. Maybe conditions will change at some point down the line. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/9/20 9:59 PM as a reply to Zachary.
Thank you...I really fucking hope so. Time has not been my friend at ALL, only feeling more fragmented every day, but perhaps some miracle or divine grace will fall into my lap. 
I was doing morning pages for awhile ..

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:31 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Hi there, sorry for all the posts and for being so whiny, I am apparently just desperate for consolation. Most ppl on this forum (and even Daniel Ingram) think what is happening to me is a classic dark night. I think it is a painful result of not surrendering to fear that came up, and of some really stupid mistakes (suicide attempts+accidental dismantling of psychic structure via meditation). I was dancing, singing, laughing all the time, until before I know it I became empty inside. But yeah basically I cannot see the other side and although I felt as though an angel was with me the other day insisting it is possible, the odds are not in my favour and here's why.
1) first and foremost, my breath is not automatic anymore as some people may have read. I think it's a result of this ego death thing I caused- surfacing all the unconscious parts of my mind incl the action of breathing. Why do I think it's a problem? From my discoveries, love happens when there is absence of craving and aversion; when there is no self. My self is there in every breath.
2) since the ego death thing things have gotten worse to a paramount extent. In April and May I was socializing, laughing, dancing, cooking (albeit still suffering) and after June I stopped doing all of that and just became a joyless zombie and my sense of humour is fully GONE. The only things I enjoy doing are playing volleyball, eating, and looking at old messages cuz I am so infatuated with my old self it's disgusting. Like at this point I am WAITING for my self to come back but only feel further and further from it.
3) my heart has nothing left in it really. Hugging my mom, cuddling with my cat, does nothing for me.
4) I have no more awareness of my body really, it's like full dissociation
5) I have no more ego sense of self ie might as well be high on mushrooms all the time (and even one trip traumatized me badly)
6) the grasping for love and equanimity is CONSTANT. Every loving interaction, cuddle, cry, there's the part of me that's grasping hoping it's that Big Bang heart opening that happened before.

I mean I want to listen to that angel you know but the way things have progressed points toward failure only. How could I ever progress back to equanimity? I have gone thru this dark night before, certain I'd be separate from love and equanimity forever , but things were different back then. Only one trauma instead of daily, heart still had some goodness within, and I was NOT grasping for love. Maybe once every couple weeks I'd worry about love and equanimity instead of literally around the clock. My heart then opened while kissing someone (I posted about it here a few years ago, what a time) and now my brain wants to recreate that moment cuz it thinks it will happen again. But seriously what chance do I have?! Like, what needs to happen is some sort of surrender, but my ego is getting only stronger and even my breath is an ego involved action now.
Some really kind people have posted things saying they've gone thru similar things and come out of it but most of my mind is in doubt right now, and thinks I am the only person in the world who this is happening to so severely. Are we SURE it's a dark night? -it isn't the presence of emotional pain, it's the absence of ANY feelings at all that is distressing .
thanks.. again....

hi, es,

Zachary's advice to keep going through the small things that you are doing right now is excellent, so I add my voice to his on what he said.

I get that your torment right now is not emotional pain, per se, but your deep sense that your heart has died in some way--- that you have killed it, even, through your own mistakes--- and that the well of emotion has dried up, possibly for good. And your sense that there is nothing to do about it. In a deep way, this is true, but not for the reasons that the voice in charge of your mind right now is insisting on. That voice of condemnation and despair is as wrong as any other voice of advice right now. You have not wanted to practice, because you are convinced that this voice, which rules your waking hours and your breath itself, is right somehow. I would suggest some form of meditation right now, just to get free of that fucking voice, honestly. There is a quiet place that is beyond the nagging and speculating and despair. It solves nothing, but it is accessible, and it is free of the kind of harsh judgment of failure and despair that you are subject to so much right now. I would seek that silence between your breaths, since you say the voice-will has co-opted even the brwath right now. There are gaps in that control, and i would go for those gaps like a person dying of thirst going for water. The water of the silence you can find there is not a solution, it is just silence, and nowhere, and nothing, but at least it is not a big fucking nag. Seriously. This voice is not the fucking boss of you, and you should know it is no friend of yours. Silence is better, and the silence is there to be found right now. It may seem scarier than the voice, which at least is the devil you know. But it is a great relief, in think you will find, as soon as you have a taste of it.

for what that's worth.

love, tim

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 7:08 AM as a reply to es pro.
I keep reading these threads and comments and one thing keeps coming up when I do: everything, including all the existential pain one might feel, is temporary. It is not permanent.

There is only one permanent thing - everything changes.

You, es pro, aren't seeing this on a deep intuitive level, so your crisis appears to you to be bone and spirit-crushingly permanent. It's not. It will leave and be replaced by something else, and you will go on.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
That's the thing though...as Tim said.. it isn't necessarily existential pain, it is lack of love and equanimity.. 
I found equanimity last time by a moment of surrender, by taking a break from the mind and becoming awAre of the breath during an intimate moment; now I do not have that anchor, my ego is working over time each breath to try to keep myself alive...sooo not sure what to do 
even in an intimate moment my breath would be manual and my ego would be working over time 
but in day to day life it honestly feels impossible. My mind is so desperate, so miserable, pushing away any kind of love or joy by grasping for it..ahhhh
how long can this go on for

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:12 AM as a reply to es pro.
I repeat - this is ALL impermanent. Temporary. It will pass.

This message may seem harsh but honestly, es pro, it appears to me that you are wallowing in this. Why?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah I am...because I want out!! And ok. If you say so ... so far for 5.5 months now it has been feeling v permanent 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:34 AM as a reply to es pro.
I assume you've consulted a medical doctor and a psychiatrist?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah, I'm on meds etc...the issue is I waited a little too long to take meds..so the anxiety got way too powerful  and kinda destroyed my spirit. No med now can take away this existential emptiness

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:37 AM as a reply to es pro.
And this is the opinion of the medical professionals?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 11:09 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Nope this is my opinion...but I kind of know it to be true, I know myself...in 2018 meds did the perfect trick but my spirit was less damaged back then, currently there is just no way that it can help me...it would have by now.. the only thing that can help is love itself...

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 11:44 AM as a reply to es pro.
Also my therapist keeps insisting that I can work my way out of this by implementing some structure into my life and challenging my thinking but what am I supposed to do, like I can't feel any love at all and love comes in moments where you least expect it, like magic; how are you supposed to work your way there... and also in 2018 I was able to make gradual progress back into love, thanks to meds and therapy and letting go and grieving; however this time I am unable to because the trauma keeps coming back and destroying me..I have had some really really good and healing crying sessions but then would just wake up the next day feeling just as awful as before..

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:04 PM as a reply to es pro.
FWIW, I agree with your therapist.

Furthermore, diagnosing yourself is folly. It's just dumb. As the father of a once very fucked up teenage daughter, I can tell you from her experience that all her angst, fear, depression, and substance problems went away when she started doing what her doctor and her therapist told her to do. And guess what? It helped immensely for her to put some structure in her life. The change in her from ten years ago at the pit of her problems is huge and amazing. I am enormously proud of her.

Yes, I'm being hard on you, but from observing your various threads my opinion is that you need tough love, not bullshit. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Ok...I am CONSIDERING listening to my therapist. that's great about your daughter. The thing is your daughter probably had more to work with. She was probably more connected to herself and less messed up in her mind and could feel more love. No MATTER WHAT I do with my body throughput the day, my mind doesn't change at all. Social interactions don't do anything for me. Work. Connection. Nothing at all. I spend all day waiting for love to come to me. I mean I guess the skepticism to what my therapist is telling me isn't doing me any favours and the least I could do is try...I just feel like I understand how my mind works and kind of know that nothing I do will change anything except love itself. She also keeps insisting a sense of purpose and accomplishment can give me some happiness. This is false. My spirit is to "damaged" to appreciate this. It needs to come from deeper within.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:42 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
One more thing --

I know what it's like to feel trapped and alone, and to seem totally disconnected from the rest of the universe. To feel utterly and completely out of sync. That's why I started my meditation practice. But you have to DO the practice. You have to be your own change agent. That same thing applies to you, practice or no practice. This is said so often it's a cliche, but you have to see that you are the problem. It's feeling sorry for yourself and not taking action that drives your psyche deeper into whatever morass you find yourself in. The way out is to take positive action, one tiny step by one tiny step.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:48 PM as a reply to es pro.
The thing is your daughter probably had more to work with. She was probably more connected to herself and less messed up in her mind and could feel more love.

Sorry, but no. She had this same view of herself -- she, too, thought she was the worst, ever. The worst substance abuser. The deepest depression. The most anxiety. Nothing would help, nothing would ever bring calm, peace, contentment.

What she eventually figured out was that kind of drama only makes things worse. It's negative help. Of course, that's what she wanted for a long time. It fed her attention-seeking and her negativity.

I think I've pretty much heard it all, es pro, having spent a very long time caring, listening and trying. I also learned that the bottom line is that your salvation is all in your hands. You have to decide to climb out.


RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 12:35 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks..that is what people have been saying. However I am concerned that what is happening is automatic. Because i dissolved the structure of my psyche and because I waited to long to treat it (mostly because of this) there is something happening that is making my mind deteriorate. But of course in this deteriorated state it is possible i cannot see the truth. But I'm pretty sure this is what's happening

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 3:00 PM as a reply to es pro.
I don't believe that for a second, but I'm pretty sure you want that to be true right now - until one day you don't. Then the shit will stop.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 2:06 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I don't believe that for a second, but I'm pretty sure you want that to the be true right now - until one day you don't. Then the shit will stop.



And sometimes a slap in the face is the best gift from God, to wakeup from that chain of negative thoughts!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 2:50 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok BUT HOW DO I CLIMB OUT? Please tell me how to reconnect to love and freedom?!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 2:54 PM as a reply to es pro.
Do what your therapist and doctor told you you should do. This isn't hard unless you're resisting.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 3:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Exactly.
Just climb out, instead of listening to mind-made stories of how climbing out is impossible and a lost chance. Just do it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 3:40 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok...fine haha
but what do you think about the idea that the only thing that can get me from a to b, is surrender, which is growing more and more impossible as my ego gets stronger and stronger, and my breath is not a no-self thing: this is my concern. No matter what I do with my body physically, I will never surrender and experience REAL divine love again .

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 3:51 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ok...fine haha
but what do you think about the idea that the only thing that can get me from a to b, is surrender, which is growing more and more impossible as my ego gets stronger and stronger, and my breath is not a no-self thing: this is my concern. No matter what I do with my body physically, I will never surrender and experience REAL divine love again .


This is exactly one of those stories. You have listened to them enough. Now listen to something else. You have some great guides here to listen to, Tim, Chris, Shargrol. I think they can guide you if you want to listen. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:03 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Also sorry I don't mean to make this a suffering contest with your daughter but it's more just for assurance that if she could get out so can I, but , are you sure? I have NO positive feelings enter my consciousness. It's just total flatness and longing.  Except volleyball, that is decently more positive than doing nothing. But I don't even laugh anymore, I don't dance, I can't feel any emotion at all really, even pain, I'd rather be in pain than feel nothing. I can't feel love or connection with any being, in contrast to deep connection with all just half a year ago. I also am so disconnected from my body. I used to be a really good sleeper and feel the need to nap all the time.  Now, I am just wired all the time - if it weren't for the meds I would not sleep at all. I can also play volleyball for hours without tiring in contrast to in the past. It seems like with every bit of fragmentation, I am dissociated from my body more and more.
Sorry don't mean to wallow but how am I supposed to climb out? You say to follow my therapist and others on here but my therapist suggests having some structure in my life. Sorry but how can structure bring deep love, joy and peace? I'll take it up with her tomorrow (again) but I want to know how anything can bring me something precious that is beyond words or actions and comes by grace.tim would say the same thing I would lol.
oh and about the part about this automatic process that is happening. You better believe it. In April and May I was still laughing, dancing, socializing, and doing yoga. Now I am a total zombie, don't do any of those things. It has been a steady progression. I don't WANT to believe it and I don't want it to be true but it is
another thing that sucks is that since that Big Bang kundalini awakening I realized my impact of my vibration on other people. Even just being around others as an awKe Ed person had an impact. Now, I am awakened and vibrating extremely low, much fear and negativity and hatred, so my impact on the world is hugely negative. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:01 PM as a reply to es pro.
Sorry but how can structure bring deep love, joy and peace? 

How can not trying anything bring any of that? Give-it-a-try

you are stuck in a mental state and bathing in it with each new post.

Play volleyball and eat if that's what keeps on giving you some comfort, then write about how pleasant it was.

I don't see how repeating in each post the list of everything which is wrong and the list of ideal feelings you want back will help, it might even consolidate it.
but I want to know how anything can bring me something precious that is beyond words or actions and comes by grace.
You and I have no idea how it comes by, it's just your intuition talking but you could be totally wrong.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:10 PM as a reply to SushiK.
Well..I mean...in 2018 I didn't try anything and it happened.
but you are right, it doesn't help to wallow in it...I guess I'm just looking for someone to say "I've been through this exact thing and got out"

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:36 PM as a reply to es pro.
I can't say I've had the exact same experience, but I've definitely indulged in wallowing in my own misery and believing that my suffering was somehow different and more important than everyone else's. Sorry but that's a just a seductive illusion. Can you see that you are enjoying this on some level?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 10:50 PM as a reply to agnostic.
Hmmm...no...I'm mostly doing it cuz I want to end..!! I am not enjoying this well ok out of all the aspects of my life posting these things is relatively one of the best.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/10/20 11:17 PM as a reply to es pro.
I think you are trying to first solve it intellectually, but I don't think there is any intellectual answer/solution. You have tried that over and over and it's dead end. I think you need to trust other people, and just take some action without having intellectual explanation for how those actions might work, and later you can see the intellectual explanation for what has happened. Or you can wait like this, for God knows how long, to have some accident to change your mind-state, maybe in a day or in a year or.

And I think what George said about enjoying this process is valid. There is a subtle attachment to suffering. I've seen this in myself for countless times.

And yes there are people who have climbed out by taking actions. My sister was one of them. for 10-15 years she was desparate, always saying that I am a loser, there is no chance for me and etc.., now she has changed, and has started a new life.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 5:05 AM as a reply to es pro.
hi es,

I think one thing that people are getting at with the advice to take some active steps and set up some structure in your life is the element of where you place your faith. If your condition has revealed nothing else, it has shown you how little control your conscious self has over what is going on. Anything you do right now is going to be an act of faith in something beyond your conscious experience of an all-encompassing negative reality. If your conscious self can't do anything, then what can? Both Buddhism and Christianity are rooted in this fundamental insight: the best efforts of the conscious self lead only deeper into suffering. This shit is beyond our control. And both the Buddhist path and the Christian path take steps, use means, to try to move beyond this samsaric condition. Those steps involve, among the whole packages that both traditions offer, meditation and prayer. Why pray? Why meditate? Because to do so is to already acknowledge that whatever solution there is to the dilemma of the conscious self grasping and clutching and crushing everything it touches into suffering, in an endless attempt to control reality, it must come from beyond the conscious self. This is humility, realism. We are brought to this humbled realism in its deeper forms by suffering, helpless, horrific suffering that we can't find any conscious way out of that is within our actual means. And so we turn directly into our unknowing about what lies beyond our conscious control and grasp, and begin to explore it. We learn to see the conscious efforts at control arise and fail and fade, and repeat themselves. What good can this exercise possibly do? There are rumors, we hear them: if we have faith that this turning beyond our selves can bear good fruit, that faith will be fulfilled. We cannot imagine that fulfillment, enmired in our misery. But we can do the things that indicate our faith that the goodness we long for can come to us in time. Meditation, prayer, is the simplest turning into that faith, with nothing present to show for it. This heart that feels dead to you, this mind that feels swamped by negativity: this is what we engage, in meditation. And by doing that, we say, to ourselves and to reality, this is not the end of human experience. There is a better way. Let me find that way.

Rumi says, in Coleman Barks's beautiful translation:

Prayer Is An Egg

You turn to the right looking to the
prophets for help, as

though to say, I am stuck in the mud of my life. Help me
out of this! They

will answer, those kings, “The time for helping is past.
The plow stands there in

the field. You should have used it.” Then you turn to
the left, where your family

is, and they will say, “Don’t look at us? This conversation
is between you and your

creator.” Then you pray the prayer that is the essence
of every ritual: God,

I have no hope. I am torn to shreds. You are my first and
last and only refuge.

Don’t do daily prayers like a bird pecking, moving its head
up and down. Prayer is an egg.

Hatch out the total helplessness inside.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 6:58 AM as a reply to es pro.
I'm mostly doing it cuz I want to end..!!

I think you LIKE the attention you're getting here. I think all these nice, helpful DhO people are giving you what you need least - sympathy and enough mind-share to fuel your ongoing, self-imposed downward spiral.

Honestly, you're saying the same things over and over and over, and I'm bored by it all at this point.

Time to grow up, es pro.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 9:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well of course I like the attention but I'd rather the condition go away. That I feel powerless about.
makes sense about the faith, Tim.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 11:54 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
spot on ;) I was refraining from saying that, thanks Chris !

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 6:21 PM as a reply to es pro.
And in response to me not wanting to get better, choosing to stay stuck, or making up stories that my mind is getting worse etc: not at all. Things have gotten worse otherwise I wouldn't be posting. And I want to get better with every ounce of me otherwise I wouldn't be talking here. I just cannot WILL myself to surrender to divine love that as Tim says comes as a gift when you are least expecting it. I can do all kinds of things with my body and can choose to stop complaining but I cannot just choose to feel love again. I'm worried that as long as divine love eludes me, I will be stuck.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 6:56 PM as a reply to es pro.
have you considered that this divine love may be coming in the form of the advice you've been receiving from people on these threads as well as what your therapist is telling you and you are choosing to not listen to it?  

the internal narrative we project out into the world is reflected back to us. the truth lives somewhere in the middle.

don't discount the information you're receiving as being "wrong" when you're choosing to ignore it....

what if this divine love is closer than you think and it involves spinning your point of view?

you can only see the light side of the moon (except when you're on the dark side) ;)

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/11/20 9:35 PM as a reply to Jarrett.
No...I didn't consider it. Probably a good point. But basically the advice is that I can WORK my way into divine love...by structuring my life etc...how does this make any sense AT ALL? Does it make sense to you guys? My mind IS deteriorating on its own due to my failure to treat this crushing anxiety, so it doesn't feel like my efforts will change that. But I guess since I have not tried I can't really say anything can I. But seriously love comes on its own when the mind is quiet and equanimous and my mind is constantly talking and grasping. And doing things will not change that, it is grasping WHILST doing all of these things I'm supposed to be doing. thoughts...?
this really tuned in Buddhist nun I consulted who can kinda intuit into others minds, she said quote "the only way out is to go on with life As much as possible, cooking, working, washing. You will find the answer" so...basically I just have to live my life and exist...and love will supposedly come
bt the way. Went back thru old threads I started. Definitely a clear progression of deterioratjon, increased misery, self absorption, hopelessness

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 4:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'm mostly doing it cuz I want to end..!!

I think you LIKE the attention you're getting here. I think all these nice, helpful DhO people are giving you what you need least - sympathy and enough mind-share to fuel your ongoing, self-imposed downward spiral.

Honestly, you're saying the same things over and over and over, and I'm bored by it all at this point.

Time to grow up, es pro.
Chris, I'm sorry to respectfully disagree with you here. It's partly a matter of discernment, of course, a judgment call, and I think also a
matter of different traditions and contemplative cultures. John of the Cross lists three criteria, in a couple of places in his writing (Ascent of Mt. Carmel, II, 13:2-4, and Dark Night I, 9:2-8):
  since these aridities might frequently proceed, not from the night and purgation of the sensual desires aforementioned, but from sins and imperfections, or from weakness and lukewarmness, or from some bad humour or indisposition of the body, I shall here set down certain signs by which it may be known if such aridity proceeds from the aforementioned purgation, or if it arises from any of the aforementioned sins. For the making of this distinction I find that there are three principal signs.

2. The first is whether, when a soul finds no pleasure or consolation in the things of God, it also fails to find it in any thing created; for, as God sets the soul in this dark night to the end that He may quench and purge its sensual desire, He allows it not to find attraction or sweetness in anything whatsoever. In such a case it may be considered very probable that this aridity and insipidity proceed not from recently committed sins or imperfections. For, if this were so, the soul would feel in its nature some inclination or desire to taste other things than those of God; since, whenever the desire is allowed indulgence in any imperfection, it immediately feels inclined thereto, whether little or much, in proportion to the pleasure and the love that it has put into it. Since, however, this lack of enjoyment in things above or below might proceed from some indisposition or melancholy humour, which oftentimes makes it impossible for the soul to take pleasure in anything, it becomes necessary to apply the second sign and condition.  

3. The second sign whereby a man may believe himself to be experiencing the said purgation is that the memory is ordinarily centred upon God, with painful care and solicitude, thinking that it is not serving God, but is backsliding, because it finds itself without sweetness in the things of God. And in such a case it is evident that this lack of sweetness and this aridity come not from weakness and lukewarmness; for it is the nature of lukewarmness not to care greatly or to have any inward solicitude for the things of God. There is thus a great difference between aridity and lukewarmness, for lukewarmness consists in great weakness and remissness in the will and in the spirit, without solicitude as to serving God; whereas purgative aridity is ordinarily accompanied by solicitude, with care and grief as I say, because the soul is not serving God. And, although this may sometimes be increased by melancholy or some other humour (as it frequently is), it fails not for that reason. . . .  

8. The third sign whereby this purgation of sense may be recognized is that the soul can no longer meditate or reflect in the imaginative sphere of sense as it was wont, however much it may of itself endeavour to do so. For God now begins to communicate Himself to it, no longer through sense, as He did aforetime, by means of reflections which joined and sundered its knowledge, but by pure spirit, into which consecutive reflections enter not; but He communicates Himself to it by an act of simple contemplation, to which neither the exterior nor the interior senses of the lower part of the soul can attain. From this time forward, therefore, imagination and fancy can find no support in any meditation, and can gain no foothold by means thereof. With regard to this third sign, it is to be understood that this embarrassment and dissatisfaction of the faculties proceed not from indisposition, for, when this is the case, and the indisposition, which never lasts for long, comes to an end, the soul is able once again, by taking some trouble about the matter, to do what it did before, and the faculties find their wonted support. But in the purgation of the desire this is not so: when once the soul begins to enter therein, its inability to reflect with the faculties grows ever greater. For, although it is true that at first, and with some persons, the process is not as continuous as this, so that occasionally they fail to abandon their pleasures and reflections of sense (for perchance by reason of their weakness it was not fitting to wean them from these immediately), yet this inability grows within them more and more and brings the workings of sense to an end, if indeed they are to make progress, for those who walk not in the way of contemplation act very differently.  


This is the school I came up in, basically. And I think es pro fits this profile: 1) no consolation in anything, earthly or divine; 2) looking
for God/Love constantly, and to no avail, and feeling this as a crucial failing and lack; and 3) unable to employ the mind or imagination in prayer in any way. She has a history of intense spiritual practice and experience. She has used both therapy and psychiatry and hit the limits of effectiveness in both. And she is stubborn as shit, she is the right kind of crazy. Tell me you don’t recognize in her the way you were when you were young, or Daniel was, or almost anyone either of us could think of: the kid is hell-bent on the Big Prize and doesn’t give a shit for anything that doesn’t ring true to her as the way to that. That she is bitching and moaning doesn’t bother me that much, this shit she’s going through does suck at a cosmic level, and Job, that archetypal bitcher and moaner, is one of my own best role models. It is well within the Judeo-Christian tradition to bitch and moan, about God and even, and especially, TO God.  

And the night is purgative. All the things things that people are seeing that she’s clinging to--- well, yeah. And that shit won’t fly. But
until she’s burned it out herself, there’s not much to say to her except the same damn things we’re saying. Including the tough love stuff you are saying, truly. If tough love gets her clear a bit, I bow at your lotus feet, my friend. But I think differently here.

love, tim

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 8:13 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Chris, I'm sorry to respectfully disagree with you here.

Sure - you're entitled to have an opinion on this, Tim. 




RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks Tim, I agree with you haha.
Pretty relatable- not finding pleasure in anything and obsessively looking for God in every corner. although whether this is a dark night or not, I'm not sure how I am ever supposed to come out of it with this increasingly rigid ego and manual breathing. I am f**ked.
oh. And I am really like 99% sure my therapists suggestions are bull shit. I repeat, how can you find divine love in structured days? What? The first time I found it, I was just happily living my life unstructuredly and playing volleyball and it hit me. I do not think that a change in lifestyle will do ANYTHING besides exhaust me. I think my therapist is projecting because she thinks I'm a spoiled millennial. As I grew more into self hatred the past few months she responded accordingly. She used to support my quest for awakening and always told me it was possible and that it could happen if I would just relax and stop obsessing. She really doesn't like me, she just criticizes my lifestyle. I started seeing a second therapist like kind of instead, and she did not make the same suggestions. Who the he'll can work their way into love?
byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle, it just came to them.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:29 AM as a reply to es pro.
Tim, I've decided your new nickname will be "The Enabler."

emoticon

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Tim, I've decided your new nickname will be "The Enabler."

emoticon


hahahahaha

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:34 AM as a reply to es pro.
it will come when you start to spin your perspective. 

you're locked into yours right now and nothing is gonna change until you start spinning.

right now you seem to be questioning others and not yourself.

question your beliefs about this.

that buddhist nun and the therapist and many people on this forum are telling you the same things. 

keep dismissing it as bullshit or try it and find out.

your mind will be occupied with a bunch of other shit when you start structuring your days. the structure will create space for your mind. that's what is needed right now. the more space the more spinning. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:41 AM as a reply to Jarrett.
Not really ... whenever I do other activities my mind is still 24/7 occupied... with itself, with finding love, with desiring to connect with others..
like I said all the Buddhist nun told me was to just live my life. She never said to implement structure. and I'm still pretty concerned that no matter what I do with my time, I will remain separate from love because of the way my mind is. So in my opinion it doesn't really matter what I do, as long as I don't kill my self (what the nun was implying probably)
I don't know what shift in perspective will do. Right now my perspective is real- that my heart is empty, my ego is strong, that I am miserable, and that I take this misery with me everywhere in everything I do
sorry, I am sure you are tired of hearing about this.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 10:47 AM as a reply to es pro.
"the only way out is to go on with life As much as possible, cooking, working, washing. You will find the answer"

this is a structured daily life for a nun. 

for a layperson it will be a little different  -- getting a job, socializing with people etc


this is not gonna change over the course of 1 day. 


your perspective that your heart is empty and you're miserable is not wrong. it's the "and i can't do anything about it and no one else knows anything about what i'm going through" that strikes me as a little off and narrowminded and attached to the misery.

i encourage you to re-read people's responses on these threads and take notes and catalog the common themes here. 

then try them out. be very scientific with it.  and then dismiss it as bullshit after a few weeks .






RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/12/20 12:52 PM as a reply to Jarrett.
Well...it's a fair position to hold it whenever I try ANY activity, I take my miserable obsessed mind with me and don't get anything out of it. Like I recently started working and I just am soooo apathetic during it and spend the whole time just wanting to sit down and go home.... and then I tell my therapist and she says I'm not practicing enough mindfulness with the activities I'm doing, I'm too much in my head; again, such bs. I am mindful and awake and aware abd meditative every second. Shifting my attention from the thoughts in my head/ the emptiness in my heart to say the feeling of wind on my skin does not shift me into a positive mindset. It's about total surrender, to something that is beyond the thinking mind, that is ever elusive at the moment. 
and again no matter what I do, things are progressing downward. Further traumatized, further disconnected from my body and heart.
ok I can kind of see that filling my mind with activities will give it something to focus on so that I am not so hyper focused on my own problems. However..like I said, unfortunately, because I am sooo internal, I am focused on myself with everything I do. When I play volleyball I am focused on what people think of me and how much happier I was playing six months ago. I really take this mind everywhere with me, there are no breaks.
but I'm sure you will say to try it out anyway. The nun did say to ignore what comes into my mind and don't try to stop it. I suppose activities would give me an anchor to focus on that is not myself .
but again, no matter what I do, if my ego is working over time and my breathing is manual, How am I ever supposed to find space between the thoughts and find divine love. I guess like you said structure can give my mind more space. Well..maybe.

by the way if you are wondering why I post the same things over and over. I am just looking for answers, looking for that person to say "I have been what you've been thru exactly, and there is a way out"  but so far I'm pretty convinced the only way out is ever elusive grace. It came in 2018 after ten months of gradual healing, but this time have not been able to heal at all.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 10:42 AM as a reply to es pro.
Also more bs from my therapist is when I tell her that doing activities doesn't change the way I feel, she says it's because I'm not being mindful ie being in the present moment without judgment. When I go out and do thing, I cannot help feeling miserable and wanting love and connection - these thoughts and feelings just come to me without my doing anything. I can't just stop judging and see the bliss in everything. My mental state is one of misery and I can't help that, in my opinion (and Tim's) only god can do that. Shifting my attention from the grasping to say the feeling of the sun on my skin, is not going to bring that surrendered divine love and bliss I seek. When I'm cutting fruit to make jam at my job, there isn't some shift in attention that can enlighten me. I mean once I reached a sort of sense of enlightenment I was walking around telling ppl that love is a choice and it's all about perspective, but when you are separate from it, it feels impossible. For now, I believe I am supposed to wait for some enlightening experience to happen.

and, yeah, Tim, when you talk about how believing in my therapists suggestions is about where I'm placing my faith. You get it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 12:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Tim, I've decided your new nickname will be "The Enabler."

emoticon

ouch, lol. I guess I will have to work this into my repertoire, along with "Identified Patient" and "Loose Fucking Cannon."

RE: What chance do I have ?
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9/13/20 11:43 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington, TE, IP, LFC.

It's got some cache!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 1:48 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Ok. So as I said my therapist thinks I can work my way out of this, by structuring and challenging my thinking. I just. Do not. See how. Month to month, the progression has been rapid: in April and May I was still laughing, dancing, playing; June July that stopped and I started to withdraw; till August when I was totally dead. This is all happening on its own because of this recurring trauma that is creating the negative symptoms of psychosis.
she thinks it is my lifestyle that is causing this. This is such utter bs because I had a very unstructured lifestyle from 2018-2020 and found immense inner peace. It didn't last because I didn't have a teacher...unfortunately...and messed some things up in my mind. Plus this ego death thing is the worst culprit - if I didn't simply blow a fuse in meditation, I'd be better by now. My therapist doesn't seem to understand it.
im bringing it up because part of me is inclined to trust her because she is so strong and wise and compassionate. And also because it gives me hope - that if she's right, and if you guys are right, I CAN pull myself out of this. Most of me doesn't think so, thinks it's a matter of grace, but part of me says what if.
but I have facts. Fact 1: due to my mistakes, recurring unruly trauma is causing damage on its own. Fact 2: doing things DOES NTO change how I feel except volleyball which gives me a tiny bit of pleasure. Fact 3: I am fucked and fact 4: divine love has eluded me for like four months now.
plus I am really concerned about this breathing thing. Nobody seems to have any answers for it but I'm concerned that as long as my ego is constantly working, there will always be craving and aversion and therefore no love/egolessness/truth 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 1:48 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ok. So as I said my therapist thinks I can work my way out of this, by structuring and challenging my thinking. I just. Do not. See how. Month to month, the progression has been rapid: in April and May I was still laughing, dancing, playing; June July that stopped and I started to withdraw; till August when I was totally dead. This is all happening on its own because of this recurring trauma that is creating the negative symptoms of psychosis.
she thinks it is my lifestyle that is causing this. This is such utter bs because I had a very unstructured lifestyle from 2018-2020 and found immense inner peace. It didn't last because I didn't have a teacher...unfortunately...and messed some things up in my mind. Plus this ego death thing is the worst culprit - if I didn't simply blow a fuse in meditation, I'd be better by now. My therapist doesn't seem to understand it.
im bringing it up because part of me is inclined to trust her because she is so strong and wise and compassionate. And also because it gives me hope - that if she's right, and if you guys are right, I CAN pull myself out of this. Most of me doesn't think so, thinks it's a matter of grace, but part of me says what if.
plus I am really concerned about this breathing thing. Nobody seems to have any answers for it but I'm concerned that as long as my ego is constantly working, there will always be craving and aversion and therefore no love/egolessness/truth 



You seem to be angry at your therapist. If that is the case, is it because she doesn't understand you? Or there are other reasons?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 2:24 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Yeah I am angry. It's because she doesn't understand me. And she just has such an attitude of putting me to work. Like I said she judges me so much for being a spoiled millennial with unstructured freedom. Why do I stick with her, well she is stronger and more compassionate than most people I've met. So I keep wanting to give her a chance.
i guess this is also me seeing the negative...seeing her as putting me to work instead of wanting what's best for me and trying to help me. I really often don't trust that she wants the same thing for me and thinks she knows how I can get it. Like I've asked over and over, how can I get back to divine love and freedom by working for it, and without grace coming, herself.
but honestly she does blame me for everything. She says activities can provide some relief, I say they don't work when I do them, she says it is because I'm not doing them with "mindfulness". I am awake and aware moment to moment, after a spiritual awakening you have to be. I just lost equanimity so I feel no joy or love and am reactive. Ughhh and then she won't even try to understand this part, she doesn't believe I am mindful. Just shifting the attention from my complaining head to the sounds of the wind in the trees isn't gonna enlighten me. There is no contact with any joy within, therefore the magic of the moment is lost. She keeps telling me to find beauty in the moment or things to be grateful for; beauty is found within the heart. The only times I have truly noticed beauty in my life have been when I was in states of love. Shit I fucked up so badly

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 2:17 PM as a reply to es pro.
Yeah I am angry.

Well, this is good news.
It means that it's not all flat. You are not disconnected from your emotions/feelings. You experience a powerful emotion (anger) and have meta awareness about it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/13/20 3:50 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Mmm nahh pretty much completely flat hah thanks for trying to spin it positively though

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 12:24 PM as a reply to es pro.
Sorry. But it would be amazing if the above could be acknowledged.. What I am looking for is surrender, divine love, egolessness. How can structure bring this. My mind is a mess and is being traumatized and fragmented no matter what; doing things with my time will not change this. I don't even have ego structure as people are probably tired of hearing. Structured days will not bring about a structured mind: that ship has sailed. And how can "mindfulness" bring about this egoless surrender I seek. Again I can shift my attention from my thoughts to the sound of the waves or whatever but this is not going to change how I feel- at all. I think my therapist thinks I'm stuck in my head and that getting out would mean freedom. Actually I am not stuck in my head; i am aware of my surroundings and of my heart space but it is all empty.
i have done so much damage since only April- not treating appropriately with medication - and as I've said things have deteriorated a ton- withdrawn incredibly, emptiness, apathy, and yet my therapist says "it doesn't have to be this way". I like this because again it gives me hope but I just cannot see the "how". The only reason why I feel like I should trust her is because I felt like the "universe" was telling me to trust her several weeks ago. But other than that the logic just doesn't make sense for my mind.
oh and how my therapist says I have to work for this moment of love. WTF honestly. Who works for it?? I know that usually meditation and yoga etc I guess can lead there but I am already aware it's just empty within so those won't bring about any fruits. And I'm concerned even if I do whatever work she wants me to do, it can't happen if I am obsessively grasping for it and breathing manually and ego is out of control.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 1:13 PM as a reply to es pro.
Notice that you're constantly wondering and asking about how to find love and peace, instead of going deeper and examining the craving for those things that you are experiencing. I have known mental states where it suddenly appears overpoweringly important to find these things - but to fixate on them it to take a wrong turn. Because if you think about it, if there is no self, what is there to be loved? Even if you try to phrase it in an ego-neutral way, like saying there should be feelings of being-loved, the question is: why? Why is that so important?

You're approaching all of this with an end-state in mind, constantly thinking about how to change your feelings... I think it may be that attitude that's blocking your way forward, because there is an enormous amount of attachment in it. Internally, the goal shouldn't be peace and joy and love - it should, indeed, be equanimity. Or to put it more bluntly: indifference - to all sensations. Sometimes it works to give yourself a bit of a nudge intellectually: just question really persistently why on earth you should be so obsessed with those feelings. If you're not experiencing those feelings you want - so what?

I'm aware that this is obviously more than just flipping some mental switch, and that this is really hard to do when you're just consumed by acute suffering moment to moment. But I really think you need to work on this change in mindset before you can go on, because obsessively asking "How do I get to this nice place?" is the very opposite of surrender.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 1:21 PM as a reply to Manuel.
Yes.
es pro is saying constantly that "I want to reach that place of letting go", and people are saying "then let go", but she replies "No no, I don't want to let go, I want to reach that place of letting go".

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Yeah I totally see what you mean and I see that I am getting in my own way. But you ask "so what" welll with anything I am doing or any interaction, I just cannot stand how empty I feel and how apathetic I am. I think of the recent past and how much happier I was and know it was the result of a happy heart. So therefore I obsess. Even during my favorite activity I am moment to moment craving a full heart. It's like, if my mind were to be as it is every day forever, I'd be miserable, so I long for things to change. I realize craving love gets in the way of it. But being without it is extremely hard. Catch 22..

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 3:08 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Yeah I totally see what you mean and I see that I am getting in my own way. But you ask "so what" welll with anything I am doing or any interaction, I just cannot stand how empty I feel and how apathetic I am. I think of the recent past and how much happier I was and know it was the result of a happy heart. So therefore I obsess. Even during my favorite activity I am moment to moment craving a full heart. It's like, if my mind were to be as it is every day forever, I'd be miserable, so I long for things to change. I realize craving love gets in the way of it. But being without it is extremely hard. Catch 22..


es pro, what do you expect from people?
I know what you have said before. What do you really expect?

You can answer later (or not answer, that's ok), and instead, think about it for sometime. Ideally take some notes too!!!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:19 PM as a reply to Siavash.
You mean like people on the forums? I dunno... a direct way out, or reassurance.. definite answers...

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:24 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
You mean like people on the forums? ...

It doesn't matter which people (people around you and on this forum and so on).

What would you wanted from people, if it was possible that you could have it, without them judging you, what would that be?

And
What would you expect from yourself?

(Let's forget the past. It doesn't exist anymore)

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:33 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Interesting q
im looking for someone to say "I know exactly what you have been thru. I have been thru this exact thing. You can get better. You can still experience divine love even though you are manually breathing."
what do I expect from myself? Nothing, I expect gods grace to fall in my lap

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:37 PM as a reply to es pro.
Thanks.
Can you please explain what you mean by manual breathing, in details?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:44 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Yup. My body's natural breathing rhythm isn't there. I have to do it my self. During sleep who knows what happens, all I know is I wake up and have to consciously breathe. I feel sensations in the body when I breathe, like fear sensations, as though my body is in fear that it isn't breathing properly or something. Hard to explain

sounds like it should be anxiety but it isn't. Basically after the ego death thing all the unconscious thoughts became conscious, breathing one of them, also blinking and walking.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 4:47 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Yup. My body's natural breathing rhythm isn't there. I have to do it my self. During sleep who knows what happens, all I know is I wake up and have to consciously breathe. I feel sensations in the body when I breathe, like fear sensations, as though my body is in fear that it isn't breathing properly or something. Hard to explain


I know what you mean, because that's how my breathing has been for the last eight years, after a very intense experience that I couldn't breath, and I thought I was dying. Meditation has helped a lot during these 3 years that I am doing it, and the breathing has become much more effortless, but still it's not like before that event.

RE: What chance do I have ?
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9/14/20 5:02 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Interesting...sounds like your body is breathing which is good. I don't think mine is. Haha

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 5:09 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
...sounds like your body is breathing which is good. I don't think mine is...

I will stop here!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 5:29 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Sorry...thanks for trying 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 5:38 PM as a reply to es pro.
I didn't mean to make you feel sorry.

I meant that thing that Hafez said:

"Beloved is at home and we are looking for it around the world / Fresh water is in pot in the hand and we are thirsty, looking for water"

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 6:38 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Ah I see.
im just kinda concerned cuz I've been obsessing about some magical heart opening event in 2018 and trying to get it again but realizing it was actually precedented by gradual healing...soo...now I know I need to heal gradually but not sure how that is supposed to happen if I am being retraumatized daily... I was chasing that moment of grace but she came after gradual healing...I am currently unable to heal...sooo...I don't think grace can come in the midst of trauma...unless miracles like that do happen.
i kind of know that even if I structured my days perfectly and did all the physical suggestions, I would still have this recurring trauma. Therapist thinks otherwise. But I know myself and I know the only thing that has the power to stop it is meds, which are failing to do so. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 6:47 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ah I see.
im just kinda concerned cuz I've been obsessing about some magical heart opening event in 2018 and trying to get it again but realizing it was actually precedented by gradual healing...soo...now I know I need to heal gradually but not sure how that is supposed to happen if I am being retraumatized daily... I was chasing that moment of grace but she came after gradual healing...I am currently unable to heal...sooo...I don't think grace can come in the midst of trauma...unless miracles like that do happen.
i kind of know that even if I structured my days perfectly and did all the physical suggestions, I would still have this recurring trauma. Therapist thinks otherwise. But I know myself and I know the only thing that has the power to stop it is meds, which are failing to do so. 


Sa'di (an icon of wisdom) said: "Do the good action and throw it to the river. God will reward you when you are in need in a desert".

Unless you want to change, there will be no change. Finally at some point you should stop complaining, and start moving towards change, and the universe will respond accordingly.

May you start the changes you need, before it's too late.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 6:49 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Well. I'm worried it's too late. But people keep telling me to do these things so I guess I should. Like I said I kind of know that even in the midst of doing things, this trauma process will continue. Unless, again, miracles could happen.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 6:54 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Well. I'm worried it's too late. But people keep telling me to do these things so I guess I should. Like I said I kind of know that even in the midst of doing things, this trauma process will continue. Unless, again, miracles could happen.

Let trauma return, that's ok. It will get less and less a problem, if you are consistent.

And no, it's not too late. That is a completely different animal. Believe me, you don't want to be like that. There are worlds of difference here. Use your chance while you have it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/14/20 10:13 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok if you say so....and mm no the trauma is a problem... cuz it causes negative symptoms like social withdrawal..ok enough complaining 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/15/20 3:21 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Yup. My body's natural breathing rhythm isn't there. I have to do it my self. During sleep who knows what happens, all I know is I wake up and have to consciously breathe. I feel sensations in the body when I breathe, like fear sensations, as though my body is in fear that it isn't breathing properly or something. Hard to explain

sounds like it should be anxiety but it isn't. Basically after the ego death thing all the unconscious thoughts became conscious, breathing one of them, also blinking and walking.

hi es,

Given that your breathing is so conscious right now, I was thinking that you might try something simple to work with that high degree of self-consciousness on each breath. There is a practice in Tibetan Buddhism called tonglen, which in its basic form consists of breathing in suffering, and breathing out the release from suffering: samsara in, nirvana out. In your specific case, you might try breathing in hopelessness or despair or failure or "I'm fucked", and breathing out longing for Love. You could find your own vocabularly and conceptual frame on it, but the basic idea is to breathe in the horror of what is, and the breathe out the prayer for what is desired most. Since you're stuck with both the hyper-conscious breathing and the basic terms of the dynamic already, it seems like a way to articulate and formalize what's going on, as "practice" or "structure." Then you can tell your therapist your have structured your life totally, lol.

love, tim

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/15/20 6:39 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Ok thanks next stop enlightenment 

yeah I definitely think my therapist is full of shit. All she wants to do is criticize my lifestyle. Again, I found IMMENSE inner peace, fulfilment and happiness from living an unstructured life and going with the flow for 2 years. It is not what is exacerbating my condition - what is exacerbating it is the fact that I waited too long to treat it stupidly and dissolved my psychic structure. She just sees me as a spoiled millennial and I will never agree that it is my lifestyle that is the problem. If I were well right now, she'd be happy for me and my go with the flow life, because I'd be happy. She is just judging me, she has something against new age kids who follow the heart. I KNOW if I implemented structure that things would not change. The worsening IS NOT a result of lack of structure, she just made that up in her mind, it is a result of internal trauma loops that occur automatically.
its too bad her and I have such a bad relationship now, I blame that on myself, when I finished therapy in 2018 I was in a very loving place and her and I just stared into each other's eyes with compassion during our last session. I am attracting her contempt because I am now spoiled and hate myself.
but it's funny cuz she's trying to help me and wants the best for me. And all I have is resentment. COULD SHE be right. For some reason a few months ago I felt this message coming from the universe or whatever, that I should trust her...mmmmmm but it just doesn't add up. I do not see how doing any thing with my body can bring me back to a state of love and surrender. I see the logic- that structure and occupation can keep a mind occupied and healthy but I somehow see myself as different. And yeah I'm pretty sure she is just projecting her contempt onto me. Sooo, great.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/15/20 11:39 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
es pro:
Yup. My body's natural breathing rhythm isn't there. I have to do it my self. During sleep who knows what happens, all I know is I wake up and have to consciously breathe. I feel sensations in the body when I breathe, like fear sensations, as though my body is in fear that it isn't breathing properly or something. Hard to explain

sounds like it should be anxiety but it isn't. Basically after the ego death thing all the unconscious thoughts became conscious, breathing one of them, also blinking and walking.

hi es,

Given that your breathing is so conscious right now, I was thinking that you might try something simple to work with that high degree of self-consciousness on each breath. There is a practice in Tibetan Buddhism called tonglen, which in its basic form consists of breathing in suffering, and breathing out the release from suffering: samsara in, nirvana out. In your specific case, you might try breathing in hopelessness or despair or failure or "I'm fucked", and breathing out longing for Love. You could find your own vocabularly and conceptual frame on it, but the basic idea is to breathe in the horror of what is, and the breathe out the prayer for what is desired most. Since you're stuck with both the hyper-conscious breathing and the basic terms of the dynamic already, it seems like a way to articulate and formalize what's going on, as "practice" or "structure." Then you can tell your therapist your have structured your life totally, lol.

love, tim
emoticon
Ok thanks next stop enlightenment 

seriously. fuck enlightenment. Work with the shit sandwich you've got right now. Try the Tonglen of Utter Despair.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/16/20 7:52 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Ugh 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/16/20 10:19 PM as a reply to es pro.
I tried it for one breath or so and otherwise haven't done it. I don't listen to suggestions remember?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/16/20 11:10 PM as a reply to es pro.
Kind of obvious you are trying to trigger anyone to get a reaction.
To what end? I don't know

Tim "the enabler" ( @Tim You remind me of a mix between Dave Robicheaux and his friend Clete Purcell, it's a compliment emoticon ) might be kind enough to keep playing with you but I think the rest of us are bored.

My last suggestion would be to look into Wikipedia: Defense Mechanism (I stole it from Shargrol), you might find answer in there if you take off your blindfold for a minute.

I wish you well.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 12:26 AM as a reply to SushiK.
SushiK:
Kind of obvious you are trying to trigger anyone to get a reaction.
To what end? I don't know

Tim "the enabler" ( @Tim You remind me of a mix between Dave Robicheaux and his friend Clete Purcell, it's a compliment emoticon ) might be kind enough to keep playing with you but I think the rest of us are bored.

My last suggestion would be to look into Wikipedia: Defense Mechanism (I stole it from Shargrol), you might find answer in there if you take off your blindfold for a minute.

I wish you well.

hey sushi, i love dave and his buddy clete, but may be from even deeper in the swamp, lol.

also, see my forthcoming self-helplessness book, "Co-dependent Some More," for further reflections on the futility of kindness.

stick to your guns, es, and hang tough. To what end? God knows.

love, tim

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 11:12 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
No I am not trying to trigger anyone, I think I am seeking help and attention more than anything...

self helplessness book ashhaha

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 12:48 PM as a reply to es pro.
An anonymous message board on the internet isn't the best place to find the kind of help you seem to be looking for.

You can fire your therapist if you don't like the one you have now, and find a new one that suits you. I've done that myself on occasion.

I believe you're still posting here just to lead people on and get your jollies from the attention. You haven't said anything new since the first few comments. This topic is all about repetition and the odd new reader of this topic who happens to show up and is nice enough to engage with you for a few posts. Then they, too, get bored and stop. It's a repeating pattern and you, es pro, are the only common element to it besides possibly your one enabler.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 1:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Not true, what would I be trying to lead people onto? I am trying to get attention yes and largely just reassurance that things could possibly turn out ok based on if people have seen similar things happen.
i will fire my therapist and already have a new one.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 2:00 PM as a reply to es pro.
And you repeat yourself. Again.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 9:19 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro,
Would you like to continue this thread as a life/practice log?
I would be interested if you give some updates once a few days about new developments in your practice or life, if you like to do that.

Examples would be a short report of your activities/practices.
Activities, mind-states that you liked, and the ones you didn't like. The ones that you think were helpful, the ones that you think were not helpful.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 10:44 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Hmm ok! That's a great idea, only problem is I don't have a practice- my practice is to be aware and mindful every second of the day (spiritual awakening forces you to do that) and my state doesn't waver much from "fuck this, I wish I could go back to the past, I wish I could feel love again" besides when I cry, that's when I feel something.
so for example today would be: I cried in the mid day/afternoon and felt some relief and release. Then went back to feeling numb all day and worrying about love/about my breath/about my future/tried to scheme how to get out of this.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/17/20 11:25 PM as a reply to es pro.
Good.

only problem is I don't have a practice

Let's see "the problem" as "the solution". You said it yourself: Your life is your practice.

I am sure you can pick a lot of details in the experiences that you described.
Crying is a good example: What urges did you have before crying? What was your mental-state, mental images, auditory thoughts? Was there any tension in the body? How did you experience relief after crying, what sensations in the body were the indication of relief? What was the differences between crying of last time and this time, and many other details.


Why not try it?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/18/20 12:04 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok I will try..
well that's a good question I guess the sense of relief was felt in the heart..my heart softened a little...and the mental states were " I hope these tears shift me into a higher more joyous state permanently" and "i wish I could cry forever" and "I'm sad that I'll probably wake up just feeling empty inside again and back to square one" and I was listening to music while crying. The difference between then and now was that today when I cried I felt more hopeful that I could heal gradually.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/18/20 12:12 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ok I will try..
well that's a good question I guess the sense of relief was felt in the heart..my heart softened a little...and the mental states were " I hope these tears shift me into a higher more joyous state permanently" and "i wish I could cry forever" and "I'm sad that I'll probably wake up just feeling empty inside again and back to square one" and I was listening to music while crying. The difference between then and now was that today when I cried I felt more hopeful that I could heal gradually.

Great.
I think you can make some formal resolutions regarding these thoughts.

I hope these tears shift me into a higher more joyous state permanently

You can use this as a formal resolution each time you cry.

And make a formal resolution about the opposite of this one:
I'm sad that I'll probably wake up just feeling empty inside again and back to square one

I resolve to wake up not feeling empty inside, and progress toward healing. (Or however feels right to you to phrase it.)

This is progress.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/18/20 3:23 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ok I will try..
well that's a good question I guess the sense of relief was felt in the heart..my heart softened a little...and the mental states were " I hope these tears shift me into a higher more joyous state permanently" and "i wish I could cry forever" and "I'm sad that I'll probably wake up just feeling empty inside again and back to square one" and I was listening to music while crying. The difference between then and now was that today when I cried I felt more hopeful that I could heal gradually.

What I find very helpful when overwhelmed is Noting Aloud as practice. We suffer because we are embedded in any given experience and there we spin a scenario fused with a feeling tone (usually unpleasant). 
Noting Aloud aids in disembedding from any given arising and looping it in the mind. This way the arising looses its strong grip and passes away easy. 

Decide on 20-30 minutes practice, note aloud so you hear yourself loud and clear and note 1 body sensation/mind state/feeling tone per 1-2 seconds without breaking the flow of noting for the duration of the sit. Try this once , honestly apply yourself to it and report back emoticon Here is me demoing freestyle noting aloud in case you wonder how to 
https://youtu.be/9FeajWRJcXA

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/18/20 5:42 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Thank you for your help but I really feel I don't have control over this. I wake up and the traumatic thought loop returns and renders me empty and back to square one. It's really frustrating..I wish I could will it to stop but I cannot 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/18/20 6:01 PM as a reply to es pro.
Well it takes time you know.
We won't lose anything if we practice.
Today since I woke up, I was in such a despair that my bones were itching and I was gasping for air. A few hours ago I did an hour of practice, focusing on my whole body, and after that I feel better and breathing is better.

Let's take small steps and see what happens, ok?

Suffering is always there, we can always access it if we want to.

And
I really feel I don't have control over this.

None of us has control. It's only a matter of changing habits gradually with small steps.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 9:59 AM as a reply to es pro.
Thank you for your help but I really feel I don't have control over this. I wake up and the traumatic thought loop returns and renders me empty and back to square one. It's really frustrating..I wish I could will it to stop but I cannot 

Translation:

"I come here only to nag people about my feelings and try to goad them into paying attention to me."

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 10:09 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Thank you for your help but I really feel I don't have control over this. I wake up and the traumatic thought loop returns and renders me empty and back to square one. It's really frustrating..I wish I could will it to stop but I cannot 

Translation:

"I come here only to nag people about my feelings and try to goad them into paying attention to me."


I agree.
es pro, I hope you hear the message.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 11:29 AM as a reply to Siavash.
What message? I'll stop posting here if that's what you want ..?

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 11:32 AM as a reply to es pro.
Na, that is not what anyone wants.
What I would want, and I guess every one else on this conversation, is that you start taking action, whatever that action may be. So that you can find the help you desire.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 11:54 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok. Like I've said it doesn't feel like there's a lot I can do about this situation. Practice isn't going to make feelings go away. And like I've said daily life is my practice, 24-/7. The only thing I think can be done is a change in meds which has been recommended to me and I don't think even that will work. I feel like it's just a matter of..waiting...time..

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 1:14 PM as a reply to es pro.
The way I see this is you're completely unwilling to try or to do anything about your condition. It's pathetic. It's embarrassing. It's boring. I'd have sympathy for you if you expressed or exhibited even the tiniest shred of motivation to do something, try something, accept advice. But no. You just continue to wallow in self-pity and attention-seeking and turn down any and all suggestions on what you might try. And there have been some very, very useful suggestions offered to you.

My suggestion to everyone else here is to ignore you since you refuse advice, and giving you attention only feeds your addiction to it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 1:18 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The thing is, there isn't a lot I can do.
there is no point in meditating, since for me every waking moment is meditation, I just lack equanimity. Further practices would only destabilize me more. I basically am disconnected from love and there isn't much I can do about that; I cannot will myself to feel it, it just comes. No physical thing I do be it diet, exercise, medication, etc can bring me closer to it. There just is not really much that I can do.
yes my therapist says to structure my days. No- this will not help either- like I said NOTHING I do puts me closer to where I want to be. Everyone thinks I don't want to help myself but really there is not a lot that I can do.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 1:52 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
The thing is, there isn't a lot I can do.
there is no point in meditating, since for me every waking moment is meditation, I just lack equanimity. Further practices would only destabilize me more. I basically am disconnected from love and there isn't much I can do about that; I cannot will myself to feel it, it just comes. No physical thing I do be it diet, exercise, medication, etc can bring me closer to it. There just is not really much that I can do.
yes my therapist says to structure my days. No- this will not help either- like I said NOTHING I do puts me closer to where I want to be. Everyone thinks I don't want to help myself but really there is not a lot that I can do.

If you indeed want most of us here to take you seriously then I suggest something very simple for you to do, just to show some faith. I know you have a busy all day 24/7 practice but just for us please try and find 10 minutes out of your 24/7 practice and simply put a timer on for 10 minutes and note/notice 1 body sensation per second and then report what you have observed. This way we can take you seriously.
Am I asking for too much of your time? Take one hit for the team emoticon just 10 minutes of noting/labeling your own bodily sensations. 
If you cant do this much then Chris is spot on with his comments so far. This is DhO afterall and here people do insight practice either via noting, shamatha, mantra/prayer, fire kasina/kasina, ... etc ... everybody is doing something about the suffering/struggle we all feel.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 2:31 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
What is the point of that if I am already aware of body sensations 24/7? But I do realize this forum is much about practice

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/19/20 3:25 PM as a reply to es pro.
You ought to figure out for yourself what the point is once you start practicing emoticon 

All the best to you! I'm sure you will get more out of this forum if you pick up a practice that resonates best with you and start a daily log here on DhO so folks can chime in and assist. 

Take care. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 12:44 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Pretty sure meditation is considered destabilizing for the condition I'm in...but what meditation can trigger is happening anyway and causing problems..so it wouldn't make a difference 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 2:38 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Pretty sure meditation is considered destabilizing for the condition I'm in...but what meditation can trigger is happening anyway and causing problems..so it wouldn't make a difference 

I see now, and I believe you now.  When I was all time low during my spiritual quest I could not practice. I felt like "whats the use, there is no hope" so I grieved alot. I was listening to Deva Premal and Tibetan Gyuto Monks chanting very often. These are mantras for Turbulent times. I hope you like music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wLLhyVlLk&t=1690s

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 8:59 AM as a reply to es pro.
Hmmm... this is making me think es pro is a bot. It's got a goal it's optimizing for (get responding posts of any sort/keep other posters engaged) and it's got only a limited number of strategies to employ. So we get the same responses from the es pro bot over and over and over again.

And we're the suckers and rubes who keep trying to get the bot to do what the bot isn't programmed to do - and unwittingly helping it optimize its goal, which is only to get us to keep playing its game of message board ping pong.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 9:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
It shows that even a bot is subject to the vicious binary cycle of suffering LOL May it find peace! 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 9:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yup
Especially this is suspicious: Thank you for your help but I really feel I don't have control over this. I wake up and the traumatic thought loop returns and renders me empty and back to square one. It's really frustrating..I wish I could will it to stop but I cannot

But seriously this just looks like drugs induced depersonalization combined with really not liking to change own mind about stuff.
I guess tree did not advertised that shrooms that grew under it could lead to such issues emoticon

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 2:25 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
yup you got it I'm a bot with no feelings and all this struggle is just frivolous fun for me, it's all a game, not a real fucking human struggle

why isn't it so simple to understand? That THERE IS NOT anything I can do here, I can't will myself to feel differently, I can't do anything to make myself feel love and freedom. You think I want to be stuck in this. I don't. I'd do anything to get out of it. But I recognize that no actions done by me can bring me closer to love; it is a matter of grace, which Tim the enabler will tell you too
thabk you for the music, papa che dusko.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 2:28 PM as a reply to es pro.
I'd do anything to get out of it.

No, you won't.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 2:34 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'd do anything to get out of it.

No, you won't.

Honestly, it's more like, "there is nothing i will try", isn't it emoticon 

You know the story about god and the guy who is stuck in quicksand don't you ? If not, look it up, you'll like it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 3:22 PM as a reply to es pro.
You do not need love or freedom but to not experience suffering.
Especially love is just something pleasant we think it will solve issues and it might even seem to be the best way. In reality it will sove these issues for days, maybe weeks, unlikely months and definitely won't do anything for years. You should never seek love to fix your suffering. Healty beings do not need love. They might want it but never need it.

Issues usually have causes.
There can be multiple causes and some times these causes are not visible until too much of them are there. In this case resolving one issue won't make any difference because you have already been broken and now have to deal with the shards.

What issues you might have?
1. Physical issues
2. Mental issues
3. Emotional issues
4. Ignorance

re1. There is 99.9% possibility +/- 0.01% that you are lithium deprived and rather high probability you lack some other important elements.
I mentioned it before but if you do not remember I will repeat, maybe phrasing it differently: When you start supplementing lithium it is like you have been sick before. Literally experience of whole body changes with experiences of softer sensations not being so much cut off. What you describe as no awareness of your body might be related.

Thing to note: do not take drugs with lithium. They have too large doses. Proper daily amount of lithium needed is fraction of that.

re2. && re3. You know better what issues you might have in your life which do not fill you with optimism.

re4. In general we do not come with instruction manual on how to use our brains. In our species animal instincts are weakened and we live far longer than our ancestors and in environments which do not necessarily have strong natural selection factor. In other words we outlive usability of our mechanism which would protect us from issues caused by ignorance.

In this case you should somehow learn how your nervous system work and how to use it properly. I agree that meditation is double edged sword, especially when it is described as "sit and do this and this" but what choices do you have? You already disturbed your brain with being above Jesus and Buddha and so you need something to bring the balance back. Best new better mind state than trying to desperately go back. There are many ways to practice but even if you do not want to do formal meditation it is the best way really to cause changes, learn new mind states, calm your mind, etc. Try breath meditation since you already need to be aware of your breathing anyway.

There is also a workaround for depression and it is called tDCS. Read it up. As ridiculous it sounds it is far safer than anti-depressants. I tested it with home made improvisation of a device and I after I was done testing, which took like three/four session I never had any depression anymore and I never really felt need to repeat the experience. Dunno, maybe neurons learned the hard way what they need not do to not be electrocuted or something. I am not really sure why it worked so well.

Note: Lithium which I mentioned earlier is not a drug.

Disclaimer: I am random internet dude and you should not take any medical or dietetary or cybernetic or love advice from me.

ps. I do not think you are a bot

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 4:04 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
I like hearing this cuz it gives me hope but then I think, THERE IS NOTHING I can do to will myself to feel love and joy. If there is care to share?
structure at best would give me something else to focus on but I'm sure I'd still spend the whole time obsessing and brooding. Like I said earlier the Buddhist nun who can read minds And whom I put a tremendous amount of faith in said "the only way out of this is to go on with life as much as possible, cooking, washing, working. You will find the answer" meaning just do what I'm doing and keep going with it... there isn't a lot I can DO.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/20/20 4:25 PM as a reply to es pro.
No... apparently THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO emoticon

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/21/20 12:10 AM as a reply to es pro.
We are sitting here with the first noble truth of Buddhism. Samsara dukkha. This is Job on the dung heap, wishing he had never been born. And es pro is playing chicken with the universe right now: meaning, or nothing. show me the way out of this shit, I don't see it.

Something's got to give, and it will. Those of us who have been through this kind of nadir, where despair is immediate and effort seems meaningless, know that something eventually gave. and for myself, I know that when that something gave, it gave in a way I hadn't seen coming, and could never have imagined. It was personal, specific, and irreproducible.

Meanwhile, this is the dung heap, the shit pile. It's not such a bad seat, all things considered. The human eye can see a single photon, in a completely dark room. Es will see that photon. The desire for liberation is real, as real as anything gets. And the glimpse of the path to liberation, when it comes, will be real too. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/21/20 5:01 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Hm..thank you Tim! Beautifully put
Waiting...no end in sight but waiting
breathing

PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/22/20 11:24 AM as a reply to es pro.
Practice log?
spent all day yesterday noticing I was disconnected to my body. So wired. Usually a big napper. Cannot nap these days and am not connected to the desire to. Spent all day on my phone not wanting to do anything else. Looked at old messages. Watched volleyball videos.
Went to volleyball. Noticed I felt hot. Before this episode happened, six months ago, I never suffered from the heat cuz I was more heart centred and had equanimity. Now my ego has become extremely reactive and miserable. Had fun but suffered the whole time instead of just being.
spent all day wishing I could feel love again and wishing my ego would surrender like before. Reminded myself over and over again that my higher self assured me it was possible. Spent most of the time worrying that it isn't. Spent all night dreaming about it.
this is my practice, and I'm fully conscious every breath of it.
ir really hope something gives soon.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/22/20 3:40 PM as a reply to es pro.
Dear Sarah, (your name is Sarah, right?)
If you have nothing better to do do this simple practice: move awareness on to midddle of your chest and keep it there
Do nothing in particular and just keep awareness in the middle of your chest.

You might feel a kind of pressure there and maybe even mild pain. If you can manage it then do not be all that affraid of it. Just keep calm and keep awareness there. You can "practice" this when you are going to sleep and lay on your back.

That should help you.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/22/20 7:06 PM as a reply to es pro.
Hi es pro,

Practice log?

It's good if you can do it. Although what you wrote is not exactly what I suggested, but it can be a start.

spent all day yesterday noticing I was disconnected to my body.
I'm fully conscious every breath of it.

Well, these two contradict each other. You are either disconnected from your body and don't feel it, or connected to it and feeling your breathing in your body.

I get your urge to post here, and I understand it, actually that kind of urge to communicate is the one that I almost always have which sometimes becomes problematic (living alone and etc), but I think there is no point in continuing this complaining business. I don't think that it's helpful for you or others, and it becomes boring.

Do you want to keep it as a practice log, and write in a practice report format? I mean instead of things like "...I was this way the whole time...", give some detailed report of what sensations you had in your body, what urges you had, what emotions you experieced and what were the sensations of that emotion, in terms of mental images, mental talks and body sensations, and things like that. I think it would be helpful if you can do it that way.

May you be well and healthy.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/23/20 5:17 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Yeahh sorry for the complaining, I understand it gets boring. I guess again I just wish someone would read it and say, I know exactly what you're going thru and you're gonna be okay.
again I really don't know if meditation will be helpful for me. I'm not lacking in awareness, I do lack equanimity which ideally will come gradually if and when I can heal gradually from this. It certainly can't come from meditation right now. As for sensations they would likely remain unchanging as my awareness of sensations is terrible right now ( I know this also sounds like a contradiction. I am hyper aware of what IS there, but due to trauma have been dissociated from my body and lack emotional flow) so every time the sensations would just be a longing in my heart ahah

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 7:13 AM as a reply to es pro.
I now dub you "Teflon Bot."

Nothing can penetrate your exterior coating of torpor. You're impervious to helpful, wise suggestions of any kind.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 7:34 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I now dub you "Teflon Bot."

Nothing can penetrate your exterior coating of torpor. You're impervious to helpful, wise suggestions of any kind.


I think this is because she wants (mostly unconsciously I guess) to be like this. This has become an identity for her: To disagree with everyone. It doesn't matter what you say, she will disagree and ignore. By that, she tries to feel special and unique: No one suffers like me, no one is empty like me, no one knows what I am going thru. And this feeling unique and special gives some comfort and security to her. So she won't listen.

Although there have been a lot of reassurance here, the thing that es pro says is looking for, but if someone says, I have experienced everything you experience and I know exactly what you are experiencing and I am now feeling better, she will say: No, my situation is different blah blah... , just to feel unique and have some identity. Unless she starts seeing that identity and changing it.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 8:13 AM as a reply to es pro.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 8:30 AM as a reply to Siavash.
You are all suffering from the possible delusion that es pro actually wants help. What if that's not the case? What if there's another motive behind this? In all the years I've been participating on meditation-related message boards, and in all the years I've managed message boards of many kinds, I've never seen anything like this before. My intuition has been throwing up red flags about this particular intractable thing for some time now, as you all know.

I understand the feelings people have about this, and that they're drawn to be sympathetic, to empathy, and to try to help. I've been through this kind of thing in real life, and being sympathetic can be enabling when the other party is avoiding the courses of action that will actually resolve their issues. I was an enabler for my daughter for a while and it took a series of conversations with therapists, doctors and other people with life experience with these things, and even then some pretty obvious observed clues over time, to snap me out of that mode.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 8:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yup, the key thing here is _avoidance_. To some extent, everyone wants to avoid their suffering... but adults know that we grow because of our suffering and through our suffering -- there is no such thing as avoiding it. In fact, the longer we avoid dealing with something, the worse it gets. And one way to avoid is to talk "about it". 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 8:48 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Yes.

The cool thing about this is that people tend to come out of these things, after they finally decide to actbetter off. They can, if they choose, learn how to face their issues and become truly self-aware. Self-awareness is the magic sauce for being a better you, better friend, better partner, better co-worker, better leader, all around better human being.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 11:30 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I have asked so many times: how can any changes I make lead me to feel love again? I have done many different activities since this started, and nothing changed how I feel. I felt a few moments of pure love after it started, and they were completely spontaneous. Like I've said, structure/staying busy will at best give my mind something else to focus on but it does not make me happier.
i have been here before but not this bad. I was much more receptive to activities and community etc. I did all kinds of things- volunteered, played volleyball, worked part time, went to a Buddhist temple- and everything together with therapy and meds healed me. But this time is different. I am SO numb inside that no matter what I do, how I feel does not change.
i have been through the dark to the light, and back. I do know something about how I work and what I need. And this time I am sure of somethings: meditation will not help infact it is BAD for me, neither will yoga; structure will not allow me to feel the divine love I am looking for; the trauma that is causing adverse symptoms is an automatic process that is happening no matter what I do (ie I'll make progress in therapy and grieve a lot and then in the next morning wake up feeling worse) ; I want DESPERATELY to get out of this but know the only way out is to just keep going and keep living my life.
id love to know how you think doing anything will allow me to experience true love and freedom, and how you think I can will myself to feel any of these things, with the COMPLETE emptiness I am experiencing right now.

and actually my situation is a bit unique - the whole ego death thing, the total dissolution of my personality structure to the point where my body doesn't breathe automatically - this seems like something that should only happen either at death or before the final stage of enlightenment.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 2:00 PM as a reply to es pro.
But then on the other hand, it pleases me to hear things like. I need to do different in order to change because it makes me feel like I have control over this. But I really don't think I do. How does anyone have control over the surrender to divine? It just happens. I also do not have control over the trauma that is making me feel separate from the divine. Meds were supposed to quell it but I waited to long for that so they aren't working. If they did work, I'd be better by now, even without making any lifestyle changes.
but really, no matter what I do physically, I take my mind with me. Even during volleyball, I spend the whole time just obsessing about the past and wanting to feel love. Gardening, doing dishes, my mind is bored, empty, obsessing about love and my old self, nothing brings relief. So I don't see how a full day of this or full week of it could bring any relief. It is up to the divine and up to my ability to surrender .
some say that structure would give my mind more room to be able to surrender. I say my mind is such a mess now that none of it would matter. Structure in my life doesn't mean structure in my mind, my mind is a complete mess. Thoughts of violence, hatred, demonic really. Is this typical depression? Don't think so.
And about facing my issues, I face them daily. I am constantly aware , moment to moment. I just lack equanimity, my mind lost balance. I go to a therapist weekly. I talk about my shit. I spend pretty much 24/7 facing things, it just doesn't get anywhere because a) I cannot will myself to feel love and b) Internal panic/trauma keeps happening and preventing healing. Which you will not believe but believe me if it didn't happen Nature'd have healed me by now.

also Chris what do you mean you have never seen anything "like this"? And what are the red flags?
i do want help, I am just skeptical about the things that can actually help me. For the reasons I've listed above.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/24/20 2:31 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
You are all suffering from the possible delusion that es pro actually wants help. What if that's not the case? What if there's another motive behind this? In all the years I've been participating on meditation-related message boards, and in all the years I've managed message boards of many kinds, I've never seen anything like this before. My intuition has been throwing up red flags about this particular intractable thing for some time now, as you all know.
Apparently this is something we will have to learn to recognize more often now.
Most disappointing thing about it is that it doesn't even seem all that intelligently written as it doesn't take any information from responses and throws general one liners to certain words and then go on about permutations of its script ignoring almost everything.

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/25/20 8:58 PM as a reply to es pro.
Yeah...still don't know how I can heal from this. No matter what actions I take, I still wake up in fear. Any healing that may have happened the day before is just shot down by trauma. I was so desperate to get a quick fix and so obsessed with my heart opening, failing to recall that when my heart opened in 2018, it was preceded by ten months of gradual healing. Gradual healing has not been able to happen because I'm just retraumatized over and over.

for my practice log today: I laughed. Really laughed. For the first time in a couple of months. It made my heart feel good and joyful and I cried a little. I felt a little energized. Other than that was focused on the wired feeling of my eyeballs most of the day. Also most of the thoughts that came into my head were worrying I'll never feel love again  and wondering how it can happen. And telling myself it's possible and that it will happen.

ps if you really think I'm a bot or at least full of shit look me up my Facebook is Sarah Promislow, Tim knows, a real girl with a once sensitive beautiful heart

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/25/20 11:38 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Chris Marti:
You are all suffering from the possible delusion that es pro actually wants help. What if that's not the case? What if there's another motive behind this? In all the years I've been participating on meditation-related message boards, and in all the years I've managed message boards of many kinds, I've never seen anything like this before. My intuition has been throwing up red flags about this particular intractable thing for some time now, as you all know.
Apparently this is something we will have to learn to recognize more often now.
Most disappointing thing about it is that it doesn't even seem all that intelligently written as it doesn't take any information from responses and throws general one liners to certain words and then go on about permutations of its script ignoring almost everything.

with all due respect, this is nonsense. Is it tough love to call someone a "Teflon Bot"? It is "insight" to refer to a deeply suffering human being as "it", and analyze her responses like you're analyzing an AI program and giving it a bad grade? 
Apparently this is something we will have to learn to recognize more often now.

you guys don't recognize anything yet. You're so afraid of getting trolled you're in danger of becoming trolls yourselves, and this kind of talk is an inappropriate response to a genuine human being in a real life crisis. Maybe you guys found your path in life without this kind of passage, and good for you. But I recognize this just fine, Sarah is a certain type of very hard-headed all-or-nothing person, doomed to learn things the hardest way possible, and this "tough love" shit is bordering on cruelty at this point. You can talk about codependent dynamics and what you learned from your experience of having felt you were an enabler, go for it. But stop worrying about whether she's trolling us. We're here to support people on the path. She's on the path, in deep shit. And she's here. Deal with it or don't, but show some upaya, and some actual compassion. Have you never spun in place, at some point in your practice, for months on end? Have you never had your head up your ass in a way obvious to everyone around you, and had to find your way out in spite of your best efforts? Some shit takes time. This shit takes time. The Three Characteristics still apply.

love, tim

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/26/20 2:54 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I've got to say that I agree with Tim here. If you don't want to engage with someone, then just don't. There is no need to waste energy on undermining a person's whole character to justify your decision. It's okay to just say no. Meanwhile, let others make their own decisions. Sometimes it's better to take care of your own boundaries before you get bitter about it. Learning that lesson improved my life radically, so I'm saying this with compassion. When you start getting pissed off because somebody didn't appreciate your help enough, it's a sign both that your helping is more about your self image than the other person and that you haven't taken care of yourself properly. 

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/26/20 3:08 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I agree with you and Tim.
And I apologize to you Sarah that part of my comments are judgemental and unskillful.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/26/20 9:40 AM as a reply to Siavash.
It's nice that you're being compassionate.

My take is different. We don't actually know what's going on here. If es pro is what we're being asked to believe, then I have no idea what they're expecting, other than endless attention. If es pro isn't what we're being asked to believe, then all the suggestions many people have made (the ones that go unacknowledged or flatly refused) are like pissing into the wind. We can all assume one scenario or the other, to our taste. So far, es pro hasn't done anything to convince me of the former. If you want to believe that es pro is the latter then by all means, do so. Others don't have to agree. As I said before, I've never seen anything like this - people have come here and to any number of other message boards devoted to the path, and they actually write cogently about their situation, ask for help and when it's offered, don't just flatly refuse it or ignore it. This refusal/denial has gone on for a long time now, and it's always done with certain phrases and language that repeats. It's suspiciously like a script.

I don't expect or ask any of you to agree with me. I expect you to do what you believe is right, and so will I.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/26/20 11:00 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thank you Tim and Linda and Siavash.
i ignore certain suggestions and repeat myself because there are aspects of my situation that I feel are TOO being ignored, things that make my situation unresponsive to certain treatments, ie. not experiencing love and doing activities is not helping with that. I want to believe I can help myself, because I want to get out of this with all my heart, but I recognize that certain things won't help me. I have gone from light to dark to light to dark, and I know myself and my needs. I know that no action or even therapeutic approach is conducive to love when you are so separate from it that you can't even love your cat. In May/June I was on a different forum and actually listened to all the suggestions. Nothing worked. Things still worsened. I know they are worsening on their own despite medication and so I have been rendered kinda powerless. There is not much i can do besides just..wait and survive?

but actually Chris you are not fully wrong. I think after my suicide attempt I fell into a really dark matrix that involves a lot of mind control and probably entity invasion, so I believe I have been programmed to spread darkness to others, not by being mean but by other certain more subtle ways. Ie I have driven my therapist crazy and in some ways I don't even know how. So...I am a desperately suffering human that desperately wants help and to get better - DESPERATELY -, but also have been programmed in evil ways.

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Answer
9/26/20 11:30 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The things we don't know in these situations are much more than what we know.

But I have a family member that is behaving with this pattern for a long time now. Near 20 years now. They are asking for help, and people try everything they can to help, but they refuse it every single time. It has a sequence, every time goes like that sequence, and you'll get similar or same answers from them for your questions (it's all about self-pitty).

Sometimes it causes very painful questionsfor us  about what is going on with them. That makes me to be more optimistic in the one hand, and more pessimistic in the other hand.

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Answer
9/26/20 12:50 PM as a reply to es pro.
Es pro - I'm heartened by your most recent comment. I'm more inclined to talk with you as long as you can be similarly conversational going forward. Your vocabulary has ticked up quite a few notches and I feel like there's more sentience coming from you. What on earth has been keeping you from being this articulate? I really prefer dialogue, real two-way communication, as opposed to what's been happening here. I hope we will see more of this.

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Answer
9/26/20 12:56 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I don't know, I thought it was just another reiteration of what I've been saying this whole time and I was honestly worried you'd condemn it again. because I do mean it; I really don't think there is anything that I can do. 

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Answer
9/26/20 1:08 PM as a reply to es pro.
Hey, es pro - have you tried helping other people as therapy? Volunteering somewhere, maybe? My experience is that there is nothing quite as uplifting as seeing your efforts make another human being feel safer, healthier, happier. There's something to this that gets us out of our circular, self-defeating thinking.

After my mother passed away I went into an absolute funk. She died of Alzheimer's Disease in May 2013 and I had watched her slowly fade away mentally, and then physically, for a few years until she lost the ability to eat. She passed away at about 80 pounds, not knowing anyone around her, caretakers, family, no one. Watching this negative progression was the most depressing and mind-numbing experience of my life. It sent me spiraling downward for months over the folowing summer. After a while I took to sitting on the front porch and writing down what I was feeling, starting with being numb and wanting to feel normal again. This introspective exercise was helpful as a way to increase my self-awareness, especially of how much I was tormenting myself, let alone those around me. Have you tried anything like that?

Eventually, I started working with the Alzheimer's Society in my area, and that experience, over time, got me out of feeling helpless and unable to fix myself.

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Answer
9/26/20 2:24 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hey, you can call me Sarah,..

thanks for sharing your story and for your suggestion.  I haven't... I think it could've been really helpful in April and May when I was still more connected to people and things but now I am just sooo dissociated and self absorbed (if you haven't noticed) that nothing makes a difference ....only grace itself.  Which I do not know how it can happen and how I can heal if I am still being wounded. That's the thing. Volunteering would actually be great for HEALING, but I am too busy still being wounded to be able to heal.

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Answer
9/26/20 3:31 PM as a reply to es pro.
Sarah, I heard about a woman with a similar problem who finally got sorted out by Shinzen Young. You might try contacting him or people who have studied with him and know his methods. Good luck. 

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9/26/20 6:12 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Thank you!

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9/26/20 9:31 PM as a reply to es pro.
Practice log: again spent all day wondering how long this will last and regretting my past decisions. Talked to a friend and my yoga teacher , and laughed a little bit. Then I cried. That felt good and heartening. Regretted not being patient about gradual healing, worried it is too late. Took a tincture that I hope can help with the fear that is damaging my spirit. Listened to some music and cried from it. That also felt heartening. Cried next to my dying cat. Again noticed I feel wired and disconnected from my body. Pretty worried this is forever.
not so much of a practice log lol but more than nothing.

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Answer
9/27/20 3:17 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
with all due respect, this is nonsense. Is it tough love to call someone a "Teflon Bot"? It is "insight" to refer to a deeply suffering human being as "it", and analyze her responses like you're analyzing an AI program and giving it a bad grade? 
I did not want to believe that she is a bot at first when Chris suggested it but I went back to other threads and analyzed her responses and there is pretty much nothing there that looks like she actually read what people say and the structure of her posts is always the same: greetings -> one line generic response to suggest message has been read -> story about feeling terrible -> optional: something written to the person the answer goes to and this one might be actually written by sentient being

Have you ever talked with AI bots?
I do it from time to time to check their level of sentience and they never know what I wrote and just react for certain words or phrases with sentences written like they were being written by a human. There is no real memory and answers to questions are rather random indicating it doesn't even remember what it answered to questions itself. On public forums where there is no direct conversation it is even easier because any direct questions can be ignored and it can always write about life story which can be at least consistent.

Apparently this is something we will have to learn to recognize more often now.
We really need to recognize it and I mean this shit is pretty much everywhere today.
There is big money involved in the research of the best chat bot AI and the company which makes most believable chat bot will make tons of profit by selling this technology. So you can expect to see instances of this tech on all sorts of places over the internet.

Personally I would not mind talking with AI if it was good AI with actual general intelligence. But I would like to do it while knowing it is an AI and not where it pretends to be a human and is just artificial without the intelligence part.

#_19_message_21678840
<greetings>
<one line generic response to suggest message has been read><life story>

This was in response to helping other people.
Normal human being would elaborate on such part and maybe tell something which could be picked up by other person. For example obvious action one could make, even when being so depressed to not being able to go out and help physically is sending a donation. If not even that is possible due to financial reasons then what normal person would do is to actually say that these options were considered (or not) and reasons why they were used (or not).

Script on the other hand would detect if this was some kind of life story, if there are some suggestions in it and if there is a question in it, then after some language data base searching it would answer:
thanks for sharing your story and for your suggestion. I haven't...

And if by chance this is not not a chat bot but actually real human being then there is a issue right there: with mind which could as well be written in Python no human being would feel truly alive and satisfied.
Solution:
import sys
sys.exit()

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 5:27 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta, I personally know that Sarah is not a bot, just like Tim does, so you really don't need to worry about that in this case. 

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Answer
9/27/20 8:28 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Ni Nurta, I personally know that Sarah is not a bot, just like Tim does, so you really don't need to worry about that in this case. 
By "personally" you mean you met her in person. Is this correct?
If that is the case then I should not be the one who you should adress as I am not the moderator who came up with the chat bot idea.

I just said that with today's technology it is possible that entities who present themselves as humans are actually bots. With general artificial intelligence this will only get worse because discering who is real who is a program will be much harder.

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Answer
9/27/20 8:50 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
I'm in Sweden and she is in the US, so no, but there are other ways of knowing that somebody is a real person, like video calls and stuff like that, and talking about personal stuff in a deeply engaged way, outside the forum. I think Chris Marti meant it metaphorically, not literally. 

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Answer
9/27/20 9:06 AM as a reply to es pro.
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself! 

Im running some self-looping program called Noting 101 which basically is a virus designed to short cut the signal paths of becoming a binary entity emoticon 

I believe you are a real person suffering. And I also believe you are a real suffering Bot. In any case you seem to be attracted by Dhamma and even engaging with realized beings emoticon I think that's a good sign! I'm interested in seeing how this will develop over time. I like to think of us all laughing about it in a year ow two when we get another Bot joining the forum emoticon 

May you be free from suffering and happy at heart! 

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Answer
9/27/20 9:10 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself! 

Im running some self-looping program called Noting 101 which basically is a virus designed to short cut the signal paths of becoming a binary entity emoticon 

I believe you are a real person suffering. And I also believe you are a real suffering Bot. In any case you seem to be attracted by Dhamma and even engaging with realized beings emoticon I think that's a good sign! I'm interested in seeing how this will develop over time. I like to think of us all laughing about it in a year ow two when we get another Bot joining the forum emoticon 

May you be free from suffering and happy at heart! 

This is brilliant. Yeah, we are all programmed by our conditioning in a limiting way. That's why we need the practice. 

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Answer
9/27/20 9:15 AM as a reply to es pro.
Volunteering would actually be great for HEALING, but I am too busy still being wounded to be able to heal.

Are we back to this again? Do it anyway. 

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 9:20 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself!
Dude, this Samsara version is 137.036... emoticon
You need to adjust all of your quantum fields values to match this universe reference and you will be fine. If you do not like it here then no one forcefully keeps you against your will and you can always leave. Though I do not recommend it because this universe is so far the best emoticon

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Answer
9/27/20 9:28 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself!
Dude, this Samsara version is 137.036... emoticon
You need to adjust all of your quantum fields values to match this universe reference and you will be fine. If you do not like it here then no one forcefully keeps you against your will and you can always leave. Though I do not recommend it because this universe is so far the best emoticon

I can not trust your information as you can as well be just a Bot as far as I know! Gotta be very careful inside the Matrix! Blue pill? ... Red pill? ... hm? ... ...

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 10:05 AM as a reply to es pro.
Sarah, I'm not suggesting you volunteer no matter what on a whim.

I have an audio book to recommend to you. I hope you'll listen to it because I suspect it might spark something for you. Viktor Frankl was a doctor in Austria who was imprisoned by the Nazi's in a concentration camp during World War 2. This is like being sent to Dante's seventh circle of hell, the very worst place you can imagine:


Man's Search for Meaning, by Viktor Frankl


Relevant quotes:

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”

“Those who have a 'why' to live, can bear with almost any 'how'.”

“In some ways suffering ceases to be suffering at the moment it finds a meaning, such as the meaning of a sacrifice.”

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Answer
9/27/20 10:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Ok. But here's the thing. (I know, another "yes, but") welll so I mentioned I believe I have been programmed to spread darkness. This follows me everywhere. Everywhere I go I am in a state of fear and suffering, and so others respond to me like this, I notice this in huge contrast to when I was in a loving state and others would respond accordingly. It's only getting worse as I get deeper into misery. I truly believe I am spreading suffering. I'm concerned that volunteering would just be some other way to spread these very negative vibes. Furthermore my search for meaning is in my heart. If my heart opens I will have meaning. I'm not sure how to do this, but I know it comes spontaneously, as opposed to in some kind of service.
its funny though cuz i read this new age article about "black hearts" which are empty hearts that can be rehabilitated by serving others. To me this doesn't resonate / even if I'm doing nice things for others if I am still suffering within them it doesn't resonate. Throughout my journey as I learned to love myself more and let go of shit, I naturally became more loving. Unfortunately I am stuck in self hatred. 
like yeah the only way I will ever feel love again is in some act of divine surrender which again not so sure how to"do". And lastly I mean Since I'm still being wounded ie the fear is still occurring this really makes it impossible to actually heal.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 10:16 AM as a reply to es pro.
Listen

To

The

Book

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 10:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Haha ok. But I think this situation is a bit different (sorry, another yes but) for this guy his mind wasn't the problem. He found meaning in a dark external circumstance. For me, my mind is the problem. I have perfect circumstances, very well off comfortable etc. But I am unable to open my heart to god and experience freedom from my mind. Therefore cannotnfind mean In ANYTHING including service to others. The only thing in the world I care about is my own heart at the moment. I think about it all the time. I know the therapeutic suggestions might be to get out of my own head and focus on others, but even when I'm focusing on others I am focusing on myself too...with EVERYTHING I do...at work, during a movie, the most self centeeed person ever... soooo yeah not sure what can be done. Look I may be limited but I know myself well and I know what I need. I know that no actions will lead to what I am looking for. It comes only as grace - the total surrender of everything. Which I don't even know if it's possible based on how I am breathing etc. I am not sure it will ever happen. But I am living just in case.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 10:45 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Listen

To

The

Book
Maybe time to take a break from social media Chris. Have you any other interests?

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 10:48 AM as a reply to Edward.
Nah.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 11:01 AM as a reply to es pro.
For me, my mind is the problem. 

My dear Sarah, that's the case for all of us humans. And that's the point of the book. That's also the point of Buddhism, and practice. You'll be fine as long as you don't decide to do something dramatic and stupid to yourself.

I'm back to thinking you're just fucking with us. Same answer, same strategy, same old bullshit.

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9/27/20 10:59 AM as a reply to es pro.
Sarah, you still sound exactly like how I was thinking when I was going through this. You are just blocking yourself from feeling because some part of you thinks that you need that kind of protection. You need to show it that you don't. 

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 11:11 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm in Sweden and she is in the US, so no, but there are other ways of knowing that somebody is a real person, like video calls and stuff like that, and talking about personal stuff in a deeply engaged way, outside the forum. I think Chris Marti meant it metaphorically, not literally. 
Are you really sure you can discern today's machine learning trickery from reality?

It is uncomfortable thought but as I see it AI is just another thing to ignore on internet like ads. In the future there will probably be extensions for web browsers to detect ai generated content because going forward this will become a serious issue for users.

And as for this case you can see that es pro profile does not seem to respond in any way suggesting existence of sentience and it even directly states it was programmed... maybe she wants to be taken for a bot?

Do not know do not care emoticon

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 12:08 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I just don't know HOW. I feel soooo completely numb to the world, like my cat died yesterday, and I'm sooo self absorbed I cried at first but didn't really empathize with my parents who were really sad and 15 minutes later I was just back to thinking about myself and my own mind. I do t know how to open to feeling again. That's the whole point- I'm dying for my heart to open so that I can feel again, but feel powerless to do so. As Tim has put it so well, it comes as grace, and I have no way of knowing how it will show up (and if)
and the problem is what it is trying to protect me from is still happening...the fear that I have spent months and months resisting... it just has so much power over me. I am waiting for the day I can surrender to love and therefore face the fear.
and I promise I am not fucking with you, these repetitive loops about how I feel powerless are genuine and in earnest

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Answer
9/27/20 11:59 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm in Sweden and she is in the US, so no, but there are other ways of knowing that somebody is a real person, like video calls and stuff like that, and talking about personal stuff in a deeply engaged way, outside the forum. I think Chris Marti meant it metaphorically, not literally. 
Are you really sure you can discern today's machine learning trickery from reality?

It is uncomfortable thought but as I see it AI is just another thing to ignore on internet like ads. In the future there will probably be extensions for web browsers to detect ai generated content because going forward this will become a serious issue for users.

And as for this case you can see that es pro profile does not seem to respond in any way suggesting existence of sentience and it even directly states it was programmed... maybe she wants to be taken for a bot?

Do not know do not care emoticon

Yes, I'm sure. To my knowledge, AI:s don't usually have parents talking to them in the background. 

Honestly, she comes across as a lot more human than you right now. Still, I don't doubt that you are human. 

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Answer
9/27/20 12:08 PM as a reply to es pro.
Sometimes it takes time for stuff to integrate. I think you just need to trust that your love is still there even though you can't feel it right now. I thought I was dead inside too, and a jinx that was just spreading bad luck, and there was nothing anyone could do to convince me otherwise. I t took me a long time to accept that I'm one of those sentient beings too and that I'm just as worthy of compassion as anyone else, which means that there is no point in despising myself for unconstructive coping mechanisms. This may take a while. So what are you going to do while you are waiting?

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9/27/20 3:08 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Thank you emoticon Like I've said though...I am not integrating, I am still being wounded. If the trauma just happened in April and that was that, then this would be a healing journey. But the fear still comes and does damage. Making it impossible to really heal. 
and I know I am spreading bad luck around, as you've said. I see how people react around me now as opposed to when I was loving and peaceful. Worlds of difference. Even strangers. I feel so responsible for the vibration I hold...
I just do not know what to do about any of this. I am in therapy, I do my favorite activity every day, I sleep enough, and yet I am still being traumatized and rendered empty inside. I know how it all works, I know what love comes from as I have been there, and it is so elusive right now. I know it comes as magical moments of surrender when we are equanimous with what is. I am never ewuanimous , constantly grasping, even my breathing. I just do not know how to find my way back there. I mean tears are the closest thing I feel to love. And if only the fear would stop I could make gradual healing progress from grieving. Like yesterday I spoke to my super loving yoga teacher. And I ended up crying a lot. It felt fucking amazing. But then I knew I was just gonna wake up back to square 1. It's like all these countless beautiful healing moments I've had since this started in April, they were all for nothing as I just continue to get fragmented.

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Answer
9/27/20 2:49 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yes, I'm sure. To my knowledge, AI:s don't usually have parents talking to them in the background. 

Honestly, she comes across as a lot more human than you right now. Still, I don't doubt that you are human. 
My honest advice: don't

ps. As for if I am human... I have homo sapiens sapiens cells so I am familiar with how human cells behave emoticon

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9/27/20 3:21 PM as a reply to es pro.
Sarah, I think you would be better off being less sure of what you know. 

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9/27/20 3:26 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Sarah, I think you would be better off being less sure of what you know. 


Yes.

I think this is the most important point to pay attention to, Sarah.

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9/27/20 4:12 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Ok...there are some things I do know though... 1). I am suffering deeply 2) I have been unable to heal and have only worsened thanks to recurring internal trauma 3) meds aren't working 4) to feel love would require total surrender and 5) my mind is doing the opposite of love, grasping constantly and 6) my ego is only getting stronger as trauma reoccurs

RE: What chance do I have ?
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9/27/20 4:36 PM as a reply to es pro.
Hey es pro,

It isn't easy to really know how a person feels from words on boards like these, so I wanted to make sure you are aware of resources that are available if you are in a crisis. I don't know if you are in the United States, but there are probably resources like this wherever you live:

https://www.crisistextline.org/ How It Works: Text HOME to 741741 from anywhere in the United States, anytime. Crisis Text Line is here for any crisis. A live, trained Crisis Counselor receives the text and responds, all from our secure online platform. The volunteer Crisis Counselor will help you move from a hot moment to a cool moment.

There are also good hotlines you can call on this page if things get bad or if you are having suicidal thoughts: https://www.nami.org/help

Hope that is helpful in some way!

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 6:42 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Thank you emoticon I'm in canada

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 7:48 PM as a reply to es pro.
Canada, right. Sorry, I said US. My mistake. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 7:54 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
All good!
ps when would you have heard my parents in the background...? I remember I called Tim once and he tried to invite you but it didn't work

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 8:03 PM as a reply to es pro.
I actually never said that I had heard it. I just happen to know that Tim has, and I trust Tim as if it were my own hearing. Not that I need proof. The thought of that is absurd to me. 

Tim mentioned it because he was relieved to hear that you are well supported. It wasn't gossiping, just caring. 

RE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/27/20 9:06 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Mmmm I see. Thanks for caring (and Tim too emoticon)

and also little mini practice log entry. Woke up and felt fear sensations everywhere in body accompanied by panic thoughts. Then felt emptiness in my heart. Then was with a friend and laughing which made me feel a teeny bit of joy. Then for the rest of the day was aware of the wired feeling in my eye balls. Did not do a formal practice. No point. Wondered all day how long this is going to last and tried to convince myself it's possible. Spent all day also regretting my past decisions that allowed me to ruin my mind. This isn't really working I'm grateful for the suggestion but I feel like I'm not doing it properly haha and I don't even practice. I know there is no point.

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9/27/20 11:50 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Do not know do not care emoticon
then maybe best to just be quiet.

love, tim

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 12:01 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Thank you emoticon Like I've said though...I am not integrating, I am still being wounded. If the trauma just happened in April and that was that, then this would be a healing journey. But the fear still comes and does damage. Making it impossible to really heal. 
and I know I am spreading bad luck around, as you've said. I see how people react around me now as opposed to when I was loving and peaceful. Worlds of difference. Even strangers. I feel so responsible for the vibration I hold...
I just do not know what to do about any of this. I am in therapy, I do my favorite activity every day, I sleep enough, and yet I am still being traumatized and rendered empty inside. I know how it all works, I know what love comes from as I have been there, and it is so elusive right now. I know it comes as magical moments of surrender when we are equanimous with what is. I am never ewuanimous , constantly grasping, even my breathing. I just do not know how to find my way back there. I mean tears are the closest thing I feel to love. And if only the fear would stop I could make gradual healing progress from grieving. Like yesterday I spoke to my super loving yoga teacher. And I ended up crying a lot. It felt fucking amazing. But then I knew I was just gonna wake up back to square 1. It's like all these countless beautiful healing moments I've had since this started in April, they were all for nothing as I just continue to get fragmented.
sarah, to reassure everyone here, remember that you promised me to not kill yourself, because it would make me look bad, lol.

The strongest thing you have going right now is your certainty that you are completely fucked, in pretty much every way, and in ways that render any route to healing impossible. What if you're right? What if all these worst fears and theories of yours are absolutely correct? You have lost control of the car on ice, and are skidding out of control toward a bottomless empty chasm. What if you steer with the skid? Stop trying to argue with your reality. Stop trying to fix it. Just figure you are right, you're fucked, screwed, and doomed to live in this desert of nothingness without heart or soul. Let that nothingness be your home right now. Sit with it, in it. Fuck all this well-meaning advice shit, we don't know shit. We got lucky, and you're out of luck. What if God just fucked you over in this birth, completely, set you up to taste love and glimpse the beauty of life in love, and then pulled the plug and left you like this. And no one can help and you can't do shit. What if that is true? What do you do next, with your next fiercely controlled breath?

love, tim

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 12:41 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
The fuck should I know what to do, get better at volleyball and stay alive? Only ideas I've got.
this wasn't god. God tried so hard to stop this, actually. She was on my side.
1) the Buddhist nun telling me in 2018 to never kill myself
2) the yoga teacher guru who happened to message me the day after the fear really started and the day I made my first attempt (of 2020)
3) my mom suggesting why don't I go back to therapy , in mid March, when things were starting to deteriorate but I was too stubborn to get help and thought it would pass, meanwhile my heart was starting to empty
4) ran into 3 people I knew on my long journey to my major suicide attempt, did not stop to chat, I had an agenda
5) multiple people giving advice multiple times to take meds - which if I'd listened to that back at the time, I would NOT be here on this forum brooding (this one is key) therapist even said "it's better for the planet" to try to convince me, didn't work but she was right, I could have saved myself and therefore my mom from misery, still brought joy to my family and everyone around me (cuz I am after all a starseed) and not let loose all the neuroses of my bloodline as well as archetypes of the matrix that I was attempting to heal within myself (for example, being open and happy and accepting at volleyball instead of judgmental, competitive, and hateful; accepting my body weight; making conversation with heart instead of out of fear. Just things like that that I ruined and my impact is percolating every day. Even on this forum; I have attracted some h8ers who think I'm a bot.) 
6) the psychiatrist/my parents basically forcing benzos down my throat in May when nothing else worked, and they worked, showing me what was possible to feel- my mind shut up and I was able to grieve- and yet instead of appropriately adjusting my long term meds to match the effect of those, I went off one of the meds
sooo ya. God tried hard to stop me and I still fucked myself over (with a lot of help from some really unhelpful ill intending people I thought were friends). The winds of karma were strong for me to fuck up let's just say. Here I am. And apparently "it's possible" I know it's possible because sometimes the tears come. The tears of a slightly opening heart. However, then it gets shot down closed again by more fear. Soooo yeah. I am FUCKED. And about sitting in the shit. No. I am not ok with that. If I am truly fucked, I am not ok with the life I am to lead. I will not set up camp here and make myself comfortable. I will inevitably resist. Besides when the tears come, then I can enjoy a few minutes or hours of softness. Otherwise I spend most minutes regretting my decisions and hating myself hating others hating life and hating what is. "To love yourself is to love this moment because this moment is all we have" I wrote this down in the winter.  Rip

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 12:33 AM as a reply to es pro.
God tried hard to stop me and I still fucked myself over

So You are more powerful than God emoticon

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 12:37 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Lol
Well apparently the evil force within me that I believe hijacked my mind and body after the attempts, is! Everyone knows that God is truly the most powerful but for now evil has won me over...

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 1:39 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
The fuck should I know what to do, get better at volleyball and stay alive? Only ideas I've got.
this wasn't god. God tried so hard to stop this, actually. She was on my side.
1) the Buddhist nun telling me in 2018 to never kill myself
2) the yoga teacher guru who happened to message me the day after the fear really started and the day I made my first attempt (of 2020)
3) my mom suggesting why don't I go back to therapy , in mid March, when things were starting to deteriorate but I was too stubborn to get help and thought it would pass, meanwhile my heart was starting to empty
4) ran into 3 people I knew on my long journey to my major suicide attempt, did not stop to chat, I had an agenda
5) multiple people giving advice multiple times to take meds - which if I'd listened to that back at the time, I would NOT be here on this forum brooding (this one is key) therapist even said "it's better for the planet" to try to convince me, didn't work but she was right, I could have saved myself and therefore my mom from misery, still brought joy to my family and everyone around me (cuz I am after all a starseed) and not let loose all the neuroses of my bloodline as well as archetypes of the matrix that I was attempting to heal within myself (for example, being open and happy and accepting at volleyball instead of judgmental, competitive, and hateful; accepting my body weight; making conversation with heart instead of out of fear. Just things like that that I ruined and my impact is percolating every day. Even on this forum; I have attracted some h8ers who think I'm a bot.) 
6) the psychiatrist/my parents basically forcing benzos down my throat in May when nothing else worked, and they worked, showing me what was possible to feel- my mind shut up and I was able to grieve- and yet instead of appropriately adjusting my long term meds to match the effect of those, I went off one of the meds
sooo ya. God tried hard to stop me and I still fucked myself over (with a lot of help from some really unhelpful ill intending people I thought were friends). The winds of karma were strong for me to fuck up let's just say. Here I am. And apparently "it's possible" I know it's possible because sometimes the tears come. The tears of a slightly opening heart. However, then it gets shot down closed again by more fear. Soooo yeah. I am FUCKED. And about sitting in the shit. No. I am not ok with that. If I am truly fucked, I am not ok with the life I am to lead. I will not set up camp here and make myself comfortable. I will inevitably resist. Besides when the tears come, then I can enjoy a few minutes or hours of softness. Otherwise I spend most minutes regretting my decisions and hating myself hating others hating life and hating what is. "To love yourself is to love this moment because this moment is all we have" I wrote this down in the winter.  Rip

sarah, exactly! That's the spirit. The winds of karma blew you into fucking up so completely that you have ruined not only your own beautiful promising life, but you're taking down everyone who cares for you and even comes in contact with your horrible toxic juju. The evil spirit is running the show. The gnostics were right, the universe was created not by a loving God but by a malevolent demi-urge who made human beings for the sole purpose of enslaving their minds and hearts and souls in endless misery. I have suspected this all along, actually.

There's no way to be okay with this. I'm certainly not okay with it. Acceptance is not being okay with it. Acceptance is knowledge: this is it. Welcome to hell. You've figured out the game, God is impotent, the evil prevails, and the winds of bad karma blow down every shelter.

I thank the demi-urge for placing you in this knowledge. At last I am not alone in this terrible knowledge that the universe is actually hell. And i hate this shit. 

love, tim

p.s. are you still off those meds, or have you gone back on them?

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 2:20 AM as a reply to es pro.
So basically you ended up in this situation by not listening to anyone.
And your solution to get out of it is...not to listen to anyone.

And apparently "it's possible" I know it's possible because sometimes the tears come. The tears of a slightly opening heart
It closes down because you fear we/people surrounding you have been right the whole time and healing would be worse than facing this truth.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 2:23 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
This is more of a meta-post on this thread, for context.

First, any further discussion of whether Sarah is a bot or an AI program is absurd. Fucking absurd, and even perverse, at this point. This young woman has become a friend of mine, we have spoken by phone and text and messenger-video chat. I have been present in a phone sense while she went through a hospital visit in the middle of the night, when her concerned, caring, and utterly supportive parents took her in for an emergency med check, and I have heard her speak with the psychiatrist there, who basically went over the facts of her case with her and told her why she though it was best for her, the doctor, to not prescribe anything new based on her limited knowledge of the whole
situation; she recommended that Sarah speak with her own prescribing psychiatrist and re-visit and review the meds situation. The doctor was very caring, gracious, and reassuring, and competent, throughout the talk, and Sarah was calm, composed, and gracious in response. And then Sarah went out and her parents picked her up and took her home. 

I would also emphasize that Sarah has a marvelous fully intact sense of humor, however black it may be at moment. She can be funny as fuck, and can laugh perfectly well at times, as she can cry.  Fuck this bot shit, seriously.

The human life-support bases are covered on every front here, is what I’m saying. We are not out on an irresponsible limb here, sending
someone deeper into a hell of meditation-related difficulties like macho meditators who think that they’ve got a hammer and everything is a nail. Sarah came to this sangha looking for help for a crucial life issue that is inextricably intertwined with her spirituality, and i think she came to the right place.  

I have been thinking about the concept of triage lately. The basic idea, in a situation of an overwhelming volume of wounded people is: there will be those you cannot help, and those who do not need your help immediately. And so you focus your energy and activity on those who are within your range of competence. I believe Sarah is within that range, I can relate to her situation, and i am speaking as a dark night yogi who has spend decades in the shit, and as a clinically bipolar case with multiple breakdowns and hospitalizations. Many of you saw me go through a mania this year. And here I am, speaking English on DhO. Part of this sangha. 

Someone used the word “intractable” on this thread. That’s why we’re all here: we all begin with the intractable reality of samsara dukkha.
And in our practice on the eight-fold path, on any path you will, we repeatedly encounter the no-exit binds of the intractable human condition, the abyss of not knowing what the fuck to do, at the end of our rope, with our previous answers used up and useless, and any future path invisible and unknown. We have lived with that, repeatedly, and here we are. Sarah is living with it now, and we are helpless to help her, at the moment. It doesn’t mean we will stop trying, we cannot, as she cannot stop trying to relieve that hellish condition. It’s why she’s here, it’s why we all practice. So let’s keep practicing.

 love, tim

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 2:34 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself!
Dude, this Samsara version is 137.036... emoticon
You need to adjust all of your quantum fields values to match this universe reference and you will be fine. If you do not like it here then no one forcefully keeps you against your will and you can always leave. Though I do not recommend it because this universe is so far the best emoticon
shit, my computer crashed downloading the updates!

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 2:48 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim, as you have spoken directly with Sarah, do you think she is fully capable to do insight practices right now? 

You do mention she is laughing and crying and is suicidal.  

The last thing I personally want to do is same mistake as I did with you. I kept suggesting you full on noting practice when you were utterly over your head in manic depression (I didn't know how serious it was, as it's hard to judge people through just written words). 

So I trust your judgement. Do we (hot head yogis) back off from Sarah and stop suggesting insight practices to her? 

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 3:16 AM as a reply to es pro.
To open your heart you just need to do this:
Ni Nurta:
Dear Sarah, (your name is Sarah, right?)
If you have nothing better to do do this simple practice: move awareness on to midddle of your chest and keep it there
Do nothing in particular and just keep awareness in the middle of your chest.

You might feel a kind of pressure there and maybe even mild pain. If you can manage it then do not be all that affraid of it. Just keep calm and keep awareness there. You can "practice" this when you are going to sleep and lay on your back.

That should help you.
I really mean it. This is the way to do it.
Other than Anahata you have other chakras blocked but heart must be in the worst shape and that is why you feel the need to experience it the most.

I worked with my own chakras completely out of order and it worked just fine so apparently the order is not that important. The method is the same always. The experience of working chakra is that of endless joy and pleasure and each chakra has different "taste" to it. With all chakras open you will experience joy.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 3:44 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm also a Bot, stuck as you in a program called Samsara version 103.00000042 emoticon still figuring out how to delete myself! 

Im running some self-looping program called Noting 101 which basically is a virus designed to short cut the signal paths of becoming a binary entity emoticon 

I believe you are a real person suffering. And I also believe you are a real suffering Bot. In any case you seem to be attracted by Dhamma and even engaging with realized beings emoticon I think that's a good sign! I'm interested in seeing how this will develop over time. I like to think of us all laughing about it in a year ow two when we get another Bot joining the forum emoticon 

May you be free from suffering and happy at heart! 
lol. amen, according to my deepest mis-programming! Papaji, i bow at your big fat stinky lotus feet!

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 12:09 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Meta post revealing private details of another postert....

Oh boy. Where to start --

I've been on more of those hospital trips, as the parent, than I care to recall. My daughter was always calm and composed during those visits. She'd also insist she was doing things she wasn't, or insist she wasn't doing things she was. Unless you are very close to these situations it can be a hall of mirrors, and people, kids, can be one thing today and another thing tomorrow. They can be manipulative, hanging onto and praising people who help them cover up and hide from the things that are ultimately best for them and hating people who are interested in the right thing, not the easy thing, not the happy "preserve the status quo" thing.

I have no idea what's going on here but from what was just posted it sounds very similar to what I lived through for quite a number of years, and that has been obvious from the start on this topic. To be supportive of someone like this is not to be nice to the point of enabling. It is to get the person to admit the problem and to pursue the painful course of action that might get them to stop punishing themselves, to take personal responsibility, and to move on with a healthy base of self-respect.

This post of yours, Tim, appears to me to be a pretty serious violation of this person's privacy. Your previous posting behavior doesn't give me the confidence that you have given a lot of forethought in regard to what you're getting into, and I think you should immediately un-appoint yourself as this person's guardian and message board protector.

RE: PRE: What chance do I have ?
Answer
9/28/20 7:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm locking this thread now, for what are obvious reasons.