RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 10/14/11 5:12 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/14/11 5:12 PM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Hey J.R.,

Here is my take on it... others should feel free to chime in
J.R. Cooper:
At level one, I stabilize concentration on the breath at the tip of the nose and focus intently on the sensations there -- all of my awareness is there, noting sensations and thoughts as they come and go, and beginning to notice a profound centeredness that sets in.

access concentration/1st jhana

J.R. Cooper:
At level two, I begin concentrating on the breath as a continuous entity. At this level, some sense of embodiment begins to enter the picture – I become more aware of bodily sensations even as I track the breath. The breath becomes quite pleasurable and wave-like.

1st jhana/2nd jhana

J.R. Cooper:
At level three, tracking the breath from the outside is abandoned and one goes “inside” the breath, losing the perspective of an outside observer. This is quite a blissful state, and stabilizes and settles quite profoundly when one inhabits or tracks feelings related to emotions or physical sensations.

could be 3rd jhana

J.R. Cooper:
At level four, the previous state (still “inside” the breath) opens up a bit to be more inclusive of vast space – even more blissful as the “boundaries” of the body break down. Visual stimuli grow more vivid – there is a slight psychedelic feel here. Beyond this, eventually things will become more and more stabilized and still, for lack of better terms. In these later stages of this state, there sometimes occurs the feeling that I am not meditating anymore -- rather it can become so effortless as to feel like I am (to borrow Shinzen Young’s term) “being meditated”.

this one sounds like 4th jhana

J.R. Cooper:
The second state I’m referring to is what I have taken to calling “resting awareness in space”. This is basically resting awareness in a vast panorama of space within which the breath itself is just a small pinprick.

this sounds like sphere of boundless space - 5th jhana

J.R. Cooper:
Spending time in this space has some pretty interesting (and awesome) effects: the space itself becomes seemingly suffused with consciousness or awareness;

and a sphere of boundless consciousness - 6th jhana

J.R. Cooper:
and on some occasions when I have sat long enough (or much shorter if the setting is right), the space will become stabilized into a profound stillness – something that doesn’t seem like it could be any more stable or settled.

and sphere of nothingness - 7th jhana! (and it can get even weirder/subtler still, there is still an 8th!)

so the first of your two states seems to be the rupa/form jhanas, and the second seems to be the arupa/formless jhanas...

do you usually go right into the 2nd set-of-states directly, or does it follow going through the 1st set-of-states?

the important question is - what do ya wanna get out of practicing?
T Merganser, modified 12 Years ago at 10/14/11 10:16 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/14/11 10:16 PM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/10/11 Recent Posts
BCDEFG,

Thanks so much for your response.

In response to your questions:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

do you usually go right into the 2nd set-of-states directly, or does it follow going through the 1st set-of-states?



I find that I can go into the 2nd set of states directly (I usually do it as a separate practice). The first part of that 2nd set (just basic resting in space) I can slip into without practicing at all at this point. The latter, more awesome descriptions, are very dependent on setting and time alloted -- it doesn't usually happen during daily practice. It's interesting to me that the first set of states I described (5 levels of breath) do require sitting and effort to get into, but the basic resting in space doesn't...

As far as what I want to get out of practicing, trite maybe but true -- I want to become enlightened for the sake of all beings. Originally my practice was just aimed at reducing stress, but eventually one discovers there is so much more there...
T Dan S-, modified 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 1:58 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 1:58 AM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/3/11 Recent Posts
I find the transition from 4th to 5th is perhaps the most fluid and effortless of all of them.
Often when I'm doing insight and prepping by rising to 4th, I'll have to pull my attention 'back' into the qualities of 4th. Like a hiccup/doubletake, because the mind so easily starts cultivating qualities of 5th.


I mention this because you seem to be able to access 5th without progressing through the first four jhanas as most people assume you need to. How long have you been doing this breath practice and what does a sit entail? Maybe there are subtle qualities of the "slipping into that 2nd state" you're missing, or you've come cross a way to jumpstart the jhanic arc?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 11:44 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 11:44 AM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
J.R. Cooper:
I find that I can go into the 2nd set of states directly (I usually do it as a separate practice). The first part of that 2nd set (just basic resting in space) I can slip into without practicing at all at this point. The latter, more awesome descriptions, are very dependent on setting and time alloted -- it doesn't usually happen during daily practice. It's interesting to me that the first set of states I described (5 levels of breath) do require sitting and effort to get into, but the basic resting in space doesn't...

That's interesting, though I can see that happening...

One way to look at these states is that the 2nd set (formless jhanas) all depend on the 4th jhana (the last part of your 1st set) - do you find any connection there?

This might be interesting: Get into the last of the 1st set of states (4th jhana) and try to go to the 2nd set from there (5th jhana + on). or, enter the 2nd set of states, and see if you can 'back-track' into the 4th jhana.

J.R. Cooper:
As far as what I want to get out of practicing, trite maybe but true -- I want to become enlightened for the sake of all beings. Originally my practice was just aimed at reducing stress, but eventually one discovers there is so much more there...

neat-o, that's the way to go!

do you think you have stream entry or anything like that? have you noticed any progress of insight? basically, where do you think you are?
T Merganser, modified 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 11:59 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 11:59 AM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/10/11 Recent Posts
Sze-Hung Daniel Tsui:
How long have you been doing this breath practice and what does a sit entail? Maybe there are subtle qualities of the "slipping into that 2nd state" you're missing, or you've come cross a way to jumpstart the jhanic arc?


Sze-Hung, thanks for your reply. I've been doing these particular practices for about a year, both in daily practice and short retreats. In a typical sit focusing on that 2nd state, I will take some time to follow the breath and get stabilized before slipping into "resting awareness in space." So, you may very well be right that there are some subtle qualities of the transition that I have been missing when I go straight into that 2nd (space) state.

Alternatively, I may blend the two and go through the "five levels of breath" (what BCDEFG identified as maybe being jhanas 1-4) and then enter the "resting awareness in space" state. Now that I think of it, when I follow this pattern the 2nd (space) state becomes much more vast and profound.

I will say that when I claim I can slip into this space state more or less at will, it's definitely an early "stage" of the progression (most likely very soft) -- it definitely lacks the "wow" and profundity factors of the later stages of resting awareness in space and also of the five levels of breath (jhanas 1-4?). I do it while walking outside, even while driving. This did happen to be an intial state I found in my own practice, before being exposed to and practicing all of the other stuff I have been describing. I kind of found my way there on my own and kept going back since it was such a stable place to practice with not much in the way of discursiveness...Owing to the ease of access, not sure that this one is a later jhana... But maybe the later more expansive, still, consciousness-infused versions of it are?
T Merganser, modified 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 12:51 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 12:51 PM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/10/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
One way to look at these states is that the 2nd set (formless jhanas) all depend on the 4th jhana (the last part of your 1st set) - do you find any connection there?

This might be interesting: Get into the last of the 1st set of states (4th jhana) and try to go to the 2nd set from there (5th jhana + on). or, enter the 2nd set of states, and see if you can 'back-track' into the 4th jhana.


BCDEFG,

Thanks again! Looks like you and I last posted at roughly the same time...In that last post (to Sze-Hung) I described (roughly) what you are talking about here...To round this out, I can (and do) definitely backtrack into 4th jhana...

As far as stream entry and the stages of insight, that's a whole other monster. MCTB is the first exposure that I've had to the delineations of the stages of insight (and insight meditation in general). Even though I've been meditating for a long time, I'm not sure where I'm at, owing to a) lack of familiarity with the stages and b) the fact that experiences off of the cushion can contribute to these stages. In a nutshell I've experienced all sorts of things corresponding with many of the stages...I want to write more about my own path in hopes that some of you kind strangers might diagnose, but it is going to involve me changing my screen name first as it hasn't been a conventional road, so to speak (and maybe it's not conventional for any of us)...So if you come back here and my name is changed, that's why. It will take me a bit to formulate my thoughts in a way that makes sense.

Thanks so much for your inquiries and input, it is much appreciated!
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 4:57 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/15/11 4:57 PM

RE: Corresponding Jhanas?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi JR,

Pretty much I agree with Beoman's analysis of the practice you described.

In addition, I'd like to comment on the following, as it may help you to understand that these experiences are not limited in any way by what has been taken to be stock descriptions of these states found in the discourses. I mention this in order to encourage your continued disciplined exploration of whatever states happen to arise in your practice such that you are able to gain insight from them, as well as to corroborate your experiences.

J.R. Cooper:

Sze-Hung, thanks for your reply. I've been doing these particular practices for about a year, both in daily practice and short retreats. In a typical sit focusing on that 2nd state, I will take some time to follow the breath and get stabilized before slipping into "resting awareness in space." So, you may very well be right that there are some subtle qualities of the transition that I have been missing when I go straight into that 2nd (space) state.

It may not be that you have missed these "subtle qualities" but rather that they pass so quickly as to be virtually unnoticeable. With time and continued practice, though, they may eventually reveal themselves (meaning that with increased mindfulness you may eventually be able to perceive their passing more clearly).

I began experiencing this same phenomenon after about a year of heavy three-times-a-day practice, similar to what you have described above ("been practicing these for about a year"). Not having anyone I could directly speak with about this phenomenon, I began looking around on the Internet and asking other experienced practitioners whose opinions I trusted what they might make of this, and came to learn that others had been experiencing the same phenomenon. One description of this can be found in the All Purpose Jhana thread where fellow yogi Geoff Schatz describes something very similar: "Of course over time and especially when sitting a lot, one can enter into the deeper jhanas quickly. And I've also found (and this has been confirmed by others) that over the years the level of initial piti-sukha becomes more refined and subtle, and the body and mind are either already at a level of pliancy when one sits down, or else pliancy is easily attained upon sitting, which is essential for piti-sukha."

After having personally succumbed (albeit briefly, until it was pointed out to me by another experienced practitioner) to the "Jhana Junkie" syndrome (where entering the "blissful absorptions" becomes the primary aim of practice over and above the establishment of mindfulness during jhana), I quickly grew weary of the negative effect that piti and sukha would have and how the inclination of my mind during that period would bring on a trance-like experience (trance meaning dull-mindedness or a lack of mindfulness [sati], during the experience). When I recognized that this was what was happening, I quickly developed an aversion to that state and began seeking ways to avoid it, which in essence entailed the establishment and maintenance of mindfulness during meditation.

One way I soon learned involved passing quickly from the first jhana to what I perceived to be the fourth jhana without seeming to traverse through the middle two jhanas (the second and third). At first, this confused me, because I began doubting that I had achieved jhana at all. This experience wasn't what was being described in the discourses at all, and there was nowhere in the discourses where I could find a similar experience described. It was only through persistently asking questions of other experienced practitioners and doing a lot of reading and observation of this state that I finally came to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was still jhana (meaning "fixed concentration" or appana samadhi), but a more mature (meaning more disciplined and controlled) way of entering it. Or as Geoff states above: ". . . the body and mind are either already at a level of pliancy when one sits down, or else pliancy [was] easily attained upon sitting."

J.R. Cooper:

Alternatively, I may blend the two and go through the "five levels of breath" (what BCDEFG identified as maybe being jhanas 1-4) and then enter the "resting awareness in space" state. Now that I think of it, when I follow this pattern the 2nd (space) state becomes much more vast and profound.

I will say that when I claim I can slip into this space state more or less at will, it's definitely an early "stage" of the progression (most likely very soft) -- it definitely lacks the "wow" and profundity factors of the later stages of resting awareness in space and also of the five levels of breath (jhanas 1-4?). I do it while walking outside, even while driving. This did happen to be an initial state I found in my own practice, before being exposed to and practicing all of the other stuff I have been describing. I kind of found my way there on my own and kept going back since it was such a stable place to practice with not much in the way of discursiveness... Owing to the ease of access, not sure that this one is a later jhana... But maybe the later more expansive, still, consciousness-infused versions of it are?

This latter that you describe ("a stable place to practice with not much in the way of discursiveness") is the perfect state for proceeding with what I call contemplation or the practice of satipatthana and others call insight meditation. If your experience of this state is anywhere near the same as mine, you experience a rock-solid concentration on whatever object you have taken and you are able to observe it with impunity which can lead to the arising of insight.

While in this state and by subtly inclining the mind toward an insight object (such as the three characteristics, the five aggregates, vedana or whatever) you set up the condition to gain more insight into these objects. Meditation thus becomes a tool to be used to quiet the mind in order that the mind will be able to "see things as they are" without the byplay and interference of subjective bias or otherwise conditioned thinking. It is the single-pointed focus of samadhi and the intensity and clarity of awareness of sati that a yogi should eventually recognize as the tools he needs for his investigations and eventual awakening.

Just some thoughts to be aware of as your practice moves forward.

In peace,
Ian

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