​​​​​​​

Congratulations. I am very very happy for you my friend.

Nice.

Do you have a link to your awake network practice log?

To address the requests for the awake network log: The easiest way would be to sign up (it's free). If you are a member you can access parts of the site that aren't publicly available.  If I have time I may do a copy-paste job and make documents available here but I'm not sure if it's worth doing since anyone can join. You just have to email the moderators and be a sincere practitioner.  

​​​​​​​

Congrats! Your log here as well as your posts on reddit were a big inspiration for me. I originally started metta after reading your log, and it has since become my main practice.

I'd also be interested in a link to your awake network log as I wasn't able to find it by searching.

Curious as well why you deleted your reddit account? I imagine that many others found your posts there very helpful as well.

Congratulations on your epiphany!  I cannot imagine ever saying 'i am certain', but hey that's my situation, it's not something i'd want.

You're happy to answer questions so here are some :-)

i wonder if you could express 'birth has ended' in more detail, unpack it a bit, describing it in plain english as you experience it without referring to scripture? (First hand testimony is so hard to find these days).

I'm of the opinion that there's no information without context and while some people may have some idea of what that phrase means i think that there may be a few possible interpretations; there's a lot of cultural and society and religious and dogma based contexts that could be used to define its meaning.



I also wonder what is involved with this (since you mentioned it):

'I use some drugs occasionally to focus or freshen up'

It might just be coffee of course....

​​​​​​​

Absoultely no rush on this. As you said you're busy being tickled by banana milkshakes from steak n' shake, not my scene really (actually i feel slightly sick), but please enjoy it while it lasts. 




FWIW:
A while ago i read about an orphanage run by some Catholic nuns where a large number of dead children were found buried, big scandal, the local community was horrified. Initially i had a very clear experience of anger, but eventually (having considered brahmaviharas) hit upon ' they are the   architect of thier own karma' and experienced compassion for the evil nuns (as in i would not like to be in thier shoes). Shame about the dead kids, but there's nothing to do that can help them now.  There's some imaginary chains of causality based on Catholic morality resulting in dead orphans (actually children of unmarried mothers).  Then later on i read a story about another orphange where a child was killed by a nun with a golf club blow to the head, seems like there's a pattern there. That time i just experienced sadness.  

How does that compare to your experience?  Do meditative attainments affect this?

Regarding "birth has ended" I can unpack what I mean by that.

On an experiential level, before "ending birth" I experienced life as a continual process of different versions of my self being "born" into existence based on sensual contacts. These sense contacts would mark the birth of a mental construct called an "identity".  I experienced being violently, jarringly "reborn" (not by choice) into hell realms when I was angry.  When I was reborn into a hell realm my mind burned with agitation and the self-other contrast is emphasized and exxagerated. The self is born.  I experienced being "reborn" into a hungry ghost realm when I was lonely, or hungry. I experienced a sense contact eliciting craving and clinging and the "birth" of a self-construct from simple experience (i.e. fabrication, stories, etc.). When I would be reborn into a God realm I got high and arrogant and did not have equanimity toward the bliss of the God realms (see some posts in my log).  Due to my attachment to the self-sonstruct - I experienced suffering when the bliss faded. I would then be reborn into a hell realm again when a certain sense contact would elicit a response and a trail of fabrication rippling out behind it. This was an involuntary process that: First you don't see and wish you could stop it, 2nd you see it and wish you could stop it, and finally you see it so many times your mind automatically stops it. I was previously at the mercy of - flung around into deifferent versions of self as kind of a primal defense tactic.  

Observing the mind around cessation and trying to catch the individual mind-moments corresponding to contact, feeling, valence, craving, clinging, becoming is really useful to see. When you have developed the mental faculties it is possible to observe discreet mind-moments for each of the links of dependent origination and elucidate a clear gut-level knowledge of how the self-contruct is manufactured from those basic impulses of greed, aversion, and indifference. Experientially I've described it before as being slapped in the face 10X per second with clear distinguishable mental states one after another, and these quarks can also branch out and bounce around and find different sense contacts. That's more of a granular perspective, but on a larger scale....

Immediately after cessation is perfect because you have just been "reborn" into the conditional world and the microseconds after reality returns show the mind: first a clean 100% perfect slate and then with a clean slate it is much easier to see the basic building blocks upon which the self is constructed.  Cessation is like respawning in a video game - you have fresh health and your mojo goes back to a full charge. Experientially when I hit the return well (lots of repitition is necessaary to see all this stuff) I can clearly see the unfolding process of the self being born and it feels like a very rapid, rhthmic unfolding that is somehow understood through the gut and happens in about 0.25 seconds. That clean slate makes it much easier to see the subtle constructs - for once you have a "standard" of 0 suffering, 0 selfing so it's much easier to see the subtlety of the self and how it forms around and dependent on experience. Without cessation you don't know what the standard for not selfing and not suffering is. 

Jhana practice, especially formless practice in the simpler states like 7th, can show you really clearly the more basic impulses that are at the foundation of all the selfing. 

 

I'm probably missing something obvious, but I signed up at awakenetwork.com, and I'm still not sure how to find your log. Do you have a link?

https://www.awakenetwork.com/forum/111-personal-practice-diaries-logs-comments-questions/13673-sam-s-practice-log?start=0

​​​​​​​

Thanks man. Something might be wrong with the site because the link doesn't work. I can't even find the practice log section on that forum. It's kinda janky. 

I agree the navigation on the site is confusing. 

It's under the dharma refugees section and in there there is a members only and private conversations and a section in that is personal practice.

I will post more here if there are continued problems. 

What was the moment of realization like?

ummm... i think that statement counts as authentic, def. not purloined from scripture.

How would you interpret 3x returners and 1x returners?  (i can only see the response 'that's not my dogma')

Yeah, no dice. I tried https://awakenetwork.org/forum/forum-members and https://awakenetwork.org/forum/101-dharmarefugees-forum-topics.

Personal-practice-diaries-logs-comments-questions doesn't seem to be a section I have access to even though I'm logged in. 

You can find SigmaTropic's practice log on Awakenetwork at the link below. You need to be a member of AN before you'll be able to access it and read it:

https://www.awakenetwork.org/forum/111-personal-practice-diaries-logs-comments-questions/13673-sam-s-practice-log


If you need a map to find it, here is the breadcrumbs/file location. You can use this to navigate manually to the right place:

Forum/Sanghas/Dharma Forum Refugees Camp/Members Only & Private Conversations/Personal Practice/Sam's practice log


If all else fails, proceed to the AN home page at awakenetwork.org and use the search function at the top right of that home page to search for "Sam's practice log".

It's so weird, I don't see the Members Only & Private Conversations section as an option when following the breadcrumbs. I get as far as Dharma Forum Refugee Camp, but no where on that page is the Members Only link for me. I have an account. I just created it last night. Is there some condition that needs to be fulfilled for me to become a member or do I need to create a new account? I can login just fine. Is there a grace period or some sort of authorization code? Should I hit up the admin on that site? Sorry I kinda feel like I'm spamming or something. Am I the only one that can't access the log? 

I keep getting 401 forbidden. I searched Sam's Practice Log and it doesn't show up. I found a hyperlink on this post: https://www.awakenetwork.com/forum/103-general-dharma-discussions/13814-chop-wood-carry-water-plant-seeds#115242 and got sent straight to 401 forbidden. 

Thanks for the help Chris and Sam. 

I have the same issue, don't worry.

It does say "Some topic categories will be private to only DFRC members" and Sigma did wrote "...since anyone can join. You just have to email the moderators and be a sincere practitioner.".

So most likely just the online registration isn't enough to access this members only part of the forum.

Try emailing Tom at admin@awakenetwork.org

Tom is in charge of the forum. I hope he can help. I also don't get there when using the link Chris posted, it gives me a 401 error

Cool, will do. Thanks Sam and Sushi. 

As was noted in one of the replies, AwakeNetwork has group-based access control. Basic membership does allow you to see some content, but there are group-specific areas that are only visible if you are a member of the group. The "Welcome" page that all new users are directed to says that. This tiny bit of friction substantially reduces the amount of spam and trolling.

Chrollo X is now good and anybody else that is trying to join to catch up on Sam's thread should just email admin@awakenetwork.org to get put in the right group.

Jeet and SushiK,

I noticed that both of you have registered to AN in the last couple of days, and even though you have not asked (yet) I have added you to the group that has access to Sam's practice log.

​​​​​​​Enjoy!

Thank you, Tom!

There wasn't one singular moment, but the "flip" in default perspective that seemed like the straw that broke the camel's back happened while I was working. 

The realization that I'm not separate has this wonderfully ordinary feeling to it- kind of like realizing you were having a nightmare and now you're awake and everything's ok. Wondering how you got so twisted up like a pretzel and just saying, oh, it's really ok isn't it?

​​​​​​​It feels emotionally like a giant burden has been let go of, and there is a wonderful sense of relief any time I realize that insight again. The absense of fear feels really peaceful. There is a relief from letting go of the burden of fear and insecurity - not by obtaining security, but by letting go of fear.  

aloha sigma,

   Read your post. What's your point?

terry

Aloha terry, 

I don't know. THE point? Well.... I don't know. Look at a tree and be like the tree. 

Cheers, 

Sigma

La illaha illa Allah

t


​​​​​​​

"Put Your Lights On"
(santana feat. everlast)

Hey now, all you sinners
Put your lights on, put your lights on
Hey now, all you lovers
Put your lights on, put your lights on

Hey now, all you killers
Put your lights on, put your lights on
Hey now, all you children
Leave your lights on, better leave your lights on

'Cause there's a monster living under my bed
Whispering in my ear
There's an angel, with a hand on my head
She say I've got nothing to fear

There's a darkness living deep in my soul
I still got a purpose to serve
So let your light shine, deep into my home
God, don't let me lose my nerve
Don't let me lose my nerve

Hey now, hey now, hey now, hey now
Wo oh hey now, hey now, hey now, hey now

Hey now, all you sinners
Put your lights on, put your lights on
Hey now, all you children
Leave your lights on, you better leave your lights on

'Cause there's a monster living under my bed
Whispering in my ear
There's an angel, with a hand on my head
She say I've got nothing to fear

She says: La illaha illa Allah
We all shine like stars (on and on)
La illaha illa Allah
We all shine like stars (on and on)
Then we fade away

not a big tree, bra...

​​​​​​​a small axe

for chopping wood I gather?

aloha sigma,

    Chopping wood, yes. We also haul water.

   I can be explicit if you are really willing to engage.

   Your initial post seemed to me mere self assertion. You want to display your intelligence and spiritual attainments and have people emulate you. But the desire to be emulated indicates there is no attainment. Egos think that the buddha attained enlightenment and then wanted to be emulated, so they emulate this desire to be emulated. The buddha had no such desire. The buddha was a physician. He prescribed medicine.

   So, asking what was the poiht to your effusion was expressing my view that there was no apparent point, other than look at me, aren't I special. You present a view of heaven about as attractive as playing harps and singing hosannas. Smells like "actual freedom." Don't worry be happy at the shake and steak place while the hogs in the trough bury the world in mud.

   If you had given all the right answers and presented the best view of the heavenly realm, houris and so forth, it would still just be samsara, and we still live here in the real human world of wrath and tears. Awaiting only the horrors of the shade.

   The question amounts to, how does your self assertion help any of us on our quests for health wisdom and sanity? What medicinal value does it have in a world of suffering and delusion spiraling ut of control? You appear to have no message other than don't I have a nice smile., a roaring smile. But it is a message and not a smile, a picture of the ocean and not the ocean.

   

   The buddha issued the lion's roar, the world honoured one, the tathagata. He was not saying "I am the enlightened one, follow me and emulate me and participate in my abundance." He was saying, wake up and practice. He was saying, recognize how bad it all really is and stop fooling yourself, you can cope with reality just as it is without delusion. He was saying, consciously do your best at all times and live content with doing your best. This "best" is not the achievement of personal happiness, in fact quite the contrary. Personal happiness is definitively not the goal and is suspect when it happens. Buddhas are indifferent to personal achievements and seek to relieve all beings and often engage in self sacrifice. The buddha once gave his life so a starving tiger could feed her young on his flesh.

   So, your view that you are a big tree and us saplings and shoots should try to be like you and grow tall seems to me to be delusional. You supress your shadow side and identify with your transient good mood, asserting that love is forever. Good feelings morph into the ambition to be a grand fellow, admired by your peers and followed for your wisdom and good sense.

   What an enlightened person might do totally different from saying be like me, is maybe try to get people to use their own discrimination in order to achieve clarity. This discrimination mainly involves detecting bullshit and not seeking after false goals, that is, any goals, especially "spiritual" ones.

   So, the big tree is an ego which sets itself up as something to be emulated, and the small ax is the discrimination which allows one to cut through such pretensions.

   In the end, it doesn't matter if you are the buddha, not at all, in fact it sucks for us. Just gve us the medicine, if you have it.

terry




"Small Axe"
(bob marley and the wailers)

Why boasteth thyself
Oh, evil men
Playing smart
And not being clever?
I said, you're working iniquity
To achieve vanity (if a-so a-so)
But the goodness of Jah, Jah
I-dureth for-I-ver

So if you are the big tree
We are the small axe
Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
To cut you down

These are the words
Of my master, keep on tellin' me
No weak heart
Shall prosper
And whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall fall in it, fall in it
And whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall fall in it (... fall in it)

If you are the big tree, let me tell you that
We are the small axe, sharp and ready
Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
To cut you down

(To cut you down)

(To cut you down)

These are the words
Of my master, tellin' me that
No weak heart
Shall prosper
And whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall fall in it, uh, bury in it
And whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall bury in it, uh (... bury in it)

If you are the big, big tree
We are the small axe
Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
To cut you down
If you are the big, big tree, let me tell you that
We are the small axe
Ready to cut you down (well sharp)
To cut you down
Sharpened ...

take it or leave it. I wrote it all down. Not much else to say. 

I am willing to engage with you terry but not if it's just for us to engage in some kind of duel. 
Just lettin people know there's some things i jotted down.


Sam 

Probably the best thing I've ever read here Terry.

Thanks for puncturing the claustrophobia brah, what a relief.

Very good medicine.

Projection!

Nice

well it is a game, bra...

it's like little kids finding a big pile of dirt and playing king of the hill...

it's a bucket of crabs...


no one should be king of the hill


as long as there are poor, no one should be rich


until all are free, no one is free


positivelyabsolutely


it's like fifty cent says, there's no competition, there's just me (g unit)


when no one becomes your friend, every eye is one I

everyone you see is you, see? no one is all of us


take your medicine

​​​​​​​heal thyself

thanks for sharing

Days Are Short 
By Arlo Guthrie

Days are short, and I ain't down
The sun is on the hill
Looking in my suitcase for a friend
The door was opened wide
You know I lost a little pride
And inside it was just another man

CHORUS:
Every day another man reaches out his hand
Every moment there's a shifting in the sand
Every whisper in the wind
Brings a good man back again
Settle me down in my dreams tonight
Tomorrow's another day to blow my blues away

Lots of folks will tell you that
A man can go thru' life
Taking what he wants along the way
But until all men are freed
Each one gets but what he needs
The experience of living every day

CHORUS
I woke up this morning
I awoke upon my knees
Crying oo-wee, I don't know where I am
I feel just like a clown
Every time I move around
Because, after all, I'm just another man

For playing music! Terry plays a Ukulele (or is trying to tune it first) and you play a Les Paul as in "big axe"! Common ground here maybe? But ya gotta learn to sing Hawai songs!  

axes hardly come smaller than a ukulele

only thing smaller than my axe is my ability to play it...

but you inspire me to practice more, brother


​​​​​​​(gassho)

our common ground is our indivisible sentience...

​​​​​​​"this lone brightness here listening to the dharma" - rinzai

In every other discipline/topic when person get some success people do not assume and expect he/she will become teacher and go convince other people they should have the same hobby and believe the same things.

Besides people usually do not invent anything new, do not try to find any other explanations than what they heard/read. In such case there is no reason why they should bother teaching anything. Besides there is no obligation to do so.

aloha ni,

indeed, teachings are a dime a dozen...

'get some of this patented snake oil, my/our new batch, it'll make you happy...'

one size fits all, comes in all colors, doesn't shrink if you hand wash...may fade in bright sunlight...

particularly common is the xtian variety featuring I - I - I am the bread of god, only me can lead you to the promised land, worship me, eat me, integrate me into your soul and you can bear any burden, suffer any indignity...'what would I do'...follow, accept being a slave, and be free...whose face is on the dollar bill? render unto washington that which is washington's...


the sick require a physician...the medicine need not be new, but it must cure the specific disease preventing health...timely treatment may prevent great mortality and morbidity...some medicines are systemic and work on the entire body; some are specific...health is always a whole body characteristic...while the xtian way is pluck out the offending eye, the prophet muhammed tells us that if one part of the body is injured, the whole body is aroused to assist the offended member...


yes, friend ni, one persons enlightenment cannot be copied, our exemplars are like dogen's teacher the humble cook whose dedication inspired him, or chuang tzu's wheelwright, who couldn't teach his own son the way...

terry



from the way of chuang tzu, trans merton


​​​​​​​
CUTTING UP AN OX


Prince Wen Hui's cook
Was cutting up an ox.

Out went a hand,
Down went a shoulder,
He planted a foot,
He pressed with a knee,
The ox fell apart
With a whisper,
The bright cleaver murmured
Like a gentle wind.
Rhythm! Timing!
Like a sacred dance,
Like "The Mulberry Grove,"
Like ancient harmonies!

"Good work!" the Prince exclaimed,
"Your method is faultless!"

"Method?" said the cook
Laying aside his cleaver,
"What I follow is Tao
Beyond all methods!

"When I first began
To cut up oxen
I would see before me
The whole ox
All in one mass.

"After three years
I no longer saw this mass.
I saw the distinctions.

"But now, I see nothing
With the eye. My whole being
Apprehends.
My senses are idle. The spirit
Free to work without plan
Follows its own instinct
Guided by natural line,
By the secret opening, the hidden space,
My cleaver finds its own way.
I cut through no joint, chop no bone.

"A good cook needs a new chopper
Once a year-he cuts.
A poor cook needs a new one
Every month-he hacks!

"I have used this same cleaver
Nineteen years.
It has cut up
A thousand oxen.
Its edge is as keen
As if newly sharpened.

"There are spaces in the joints;
The blade is thin and keen:
When this thinness
Finds that space 
There is all the room you need!
It goes like a breeze!
Hence I have this cleaver nineteen years
As if newly sharpened!

"True, there are sometimes
Tough joints. I feel them coming,
I slow down, I watch closely,
Hold back, barely move the blade,
And whump! the part falls away
Landing like a clod of earth.

"Then I withdraw the blade,
I stand still
And let the joy of the work
Sink in.
I clean the blade
And put it away."

Prince Wan Hui said,
"This is it! My cook has shown me
How I ought to live my own life.”




DUKE HWAN AND THE WHEELWRIGHT

The world values books, and thinks that in so doing it is
valuing Tao. But books contain words only. And yet there is
something else which gives value to the books. Not the words
only, nor the thought in the words, but something else within
the thought, swinging it in a certain direction that words
cannot apprehend. But it is the words themselves that the
world values when it commits them to books: and though the
world values them, these words are worthless as long as that
which gives them value is not held in honor.

That which man apprehends by observation is only outward 
form and color, name and noise: and he thinks that this
will put him in possession of Tao. Form and color, name and
sound, do not reach to reality. That is why: "He who knows
does not say, he who says, does not know." 

How then is the world going to know Tao through words?

Duke Hwan of Khi,
First in his dynasty,
Sat under his canopy
Reading his philosophy;
And Phien the wheelwright
\Vas out in the yard
Making a wheel.

Phien laid aside
Hammer and chisel,
Climbed the steps,
And said to Duke Hwan:
"May I ask you, Lord,
What is this you are
Reading?" 

The Duke said:
 "The experts. The authorities."

And Phien asked:
"Alive or dead?"

"Dead a long time."

"Then," said the wheelwright,
"You are reading only
The dirt they left behind."

Then the Duke replied:
"What do you know about it?
You are only a wheelwright.
You had better give me a good explanation
Or else you must die."

The wheelwright said:
"Let us look at the affair
From my point of view.
When I make wheels
If I go easy, they fall apart,
If I am too rough, they do not fit.
If I am neither too easy nor too violent
They come out right. The work is what
I want it to be.
You cannot put this into words:
You just have to know how it is.
I cannot even tell my own son exactly how it is done,
And my own son cannot learn it from me.
So here I am, seventy years old,
Still making wheels!
The men of old
Took all they really knew
With them to the grave.
And so, Lord, what you are reading there
Is only the dirt they left behind them."

“When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why god? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, There's just something about you that pisses me off.”
― Stephen King, Storm of the Century

Snake oil business is dead. It was monopolized by pharmaceutical companies and made illegal for normal people.

Hi Sigma, you seemed to use metta to great effect in your practice. What are your thought on this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/r4h8qa/strive_to_estabilish_yourself_in_lovingkindness/

Is metta an awakening practice?

Well first of all, my reaction to the post you referenced is basically - hold your horses there skippy. The OP seemed confused and manic but what they were trying to get across i don't exactly disagree with- but theres a bit more nuance to it than this person was able to elaborate. So I don't condone the way that person seemed to be relating to the practice. 

My experience has been that metta practice is a type of samatha practice that can lead to all 7 factors of awakening co-occuring. There is nothing special about noting your sensate experience compared to practicing metta. If the factors of awakening are developed and balanced then the mind wanders up the POI stages and eventually finds cessation.  

My experience with metta and how that related to insight was basically I had practiced TMI faithfully for a couple years, maybe 3, then basically way over-did the stage 5 practices and spent a lot of time just trying to make the mind more alert and awake (stage 5 TMI practice). I was well into stage 7 as a baseline then switched over to metta mainly because I had a sort of surrender experience that led into stable high EQ and stopped worrying about clairty and I was just really enjoying the practice in a laid back nonchalant way but I was getting into stage 9 TMI with the metta and I would do the metta, get to a place where the intention was effortlessly flowing, and I would use that as a basis for switching to meditation on the mind. 

When you have the effortless attention and you also have the physical pliancy, you sit down to meditate and it's a very abnormal experience when you have samatha developed - your body feels grounded and supple and secure and there is a subtle bliss and pleasure felt throught the body.  The mind sticks wherever you put it effortlessly and with vivid clarity. I would go into the metta intention, start the intention and pay attention to where the intention was coming from, and seeing that the intetion was something I previosuly owned and seeing that go by itself is bizarre. And the bliss is so pleasant and you feel it flowing from your heart but there is also the vivid clarity and metacognitive awareness. You can see the big picture of how the mind is relating to itself and each object that comes in, and you can see this complex interplay between the intention, the physical feelings, the emotional feelings, the mental joy, etc. When you have that broad vivid minfulness and its efforltess, I started to see formations- just fluxing undifferentiated process and I had this recurring, vivid experience that reality was all mind.  In that interplay you see the mental object of other and the intention and your self-sensations and I would get into stage 9 TMI via the metta practice and just do meditation on the mind (it's described pretty well in stage 9). I was doing that and the first cessation I remember having was a massive one, there were many that day, and it was while doing that practice. I was in such high EQ that I was literally aloof almost but I had this efforless vivid mindfulness developed just because I had the hindrances gone. 

So I guess what my experience has told me is that metta can definitely lead to insight experiences happending but its just another object and whats more important is the hindrances gone and the factors of awakening being present in a balance. Then the mind finds nibanna.  

Thank you Sigma, this is amazingly clear. Really clears up for me the foundation of the practice. For some reason, I was making noting special. Balancing the 7 factors and not indulging the  hindrances as a north star seems really helpful. Sometimes I get hung up on tech. too much haha. Thanks a bunch for the explanation. 

So..
off cushion what is your general feeling of yourself.
Do you find yourself there?or you find yourself watching yourself doing everything as a witness?
Do you have unified awareness that never cease?
That unwavering attention and will?
And that consciousness?
​​​​​​you still have attitude for women drugs etc etc same as before?
​​​​​​​or you can see those attitude seperately?

In general I feel pleasantly engaged with life and simply enthusiastic about what's to come next. It feels like I'm playing a bonus round. 

I don't have any sort of sense of an all-pervading knower or watcher. Things simply happen. I simply happen. It's fun. 

 Where previously I was looking for God in women and drugs and spirtual states of rapture, I honestly feel like it's perfect and all God, all the time.

It seems to me like the things I attached my identity to have gradually become more and more refined over time, and the suffering caused by that attachment has lessened because my tastes have refined and my attachment to the self identity has declined. Where before I was searching for spiritual fulfillment via very course, intense methods, I had a gradual process of refinement in my craving and the "magnitude" of the sine wave that would describe my general perceptual mode, would be very large magnitude, and it's like a decaying sine wave if you've studied mathematics you know that there is an equation that describes in a two coordinate system where the y will be realted to x by  the equation (y=sinx). The perceptual mode would be a sine function that has the equation set up so that as x tends to infinity y will tend to 0. You can think of y=0 as cessation, perfect 1:1 synch with reality and no craving no suffering no selfing. 



You can see if you think of this that the jhana proggression is the same way. The jhanas are a further refinement to the craving complex that is more subtle than sensory bliss. After seeing cessation the mind still craves but it becomes more refined. I think the jhanas might coorelate with a refinement of craving and that may be why jhanas become hard-wired in after realizing cessation. That was my experience. Then, the jhanas become a natural go-to method for self-regulating and blowing off steam and my experience has been that whatever mental dukkha and stress was arising, that would push the mind further toward cessation and jhana and I noticed that there was an interesting thing going on there. 

It seems like the selfing can get so low and not probematic and people can function in the real world quite amazingly well and where the mental resources that were once diverted into useless stress and dukkha, that energy can now be directed toward simply being engaged in life and having a great time just experiencing being a living breathing being. Whatever residues remain don't lead to a trail of nonsense following behind it. There is no skin in the game, the self is not on the line here.

It seems to me like when there isn't that birth process happening where a person will grab hold of a solidified Idea of themselves and be literally flung around by it. I experienced a lot of suffering from this process and I am intimately familiar with it, and now it seeems like those same things that can optionally be taken together and a constant permanent self can be manufactured basically, and the cognitive dissonance from what reality appears to say vs. what the solidified worldview says really frickin hurt!  

It seems like when the mind first finds cessation, it will recognize the import and profundity of it but the understanding is immature and there is still lots of reactive patterns that have yet to be dissolved and there is still some solid residue of self attached to every experience. That's how it was for me. In terms of the experiences that I've had even still I could see myself fetishing something or manufacturing a self-concept from it. That becomes so unpleasant to experience that there is a surrender type of thing that happens, the heart opens, and you can let go of the fear associated with your self being on the line. The way I practiced is I would see I a solidifed self or a story line forming and recognize which realm I was being "reborn" into. I got really familiar with what I call the "God realm" in simple terms. I would notice that if I calmed the mind enough and was able to blow off steam with jhana (which becomes a natural release mechanism for the mind it seems, at least that was my experience) then I could see a worldview switch in real time in terms of mental objects and sense impressions. At a point you can watch the self arising and there is still mindfulness of it so you can just watch and notice the patterns in experience and views that keep propagating the birth into either heaven or hell. My practice has been a was a continual oscillation between heaven and hell and a gradual coolling off, chilling out of the fire of reactivity. 

Lastely it seems like now there may be mental activity around some sense impressions but and that's fine but I just don't seem to experience any stress around it, and what previously would have taken me for a ride is just not doing that anymore and it's nice. The self concept arises and that creates a cognitive dissonance that we experience as suffering because for the self to be there you need either a problem or an enemy. When you see through problems and enemies, there is no cognitive dissonanace associated with selfing sensations, a whole complex storyline incluyding a self concept can happen while the person just enjoys the show, and every residue of that nagging habit for the mind to grab onto experience just stops and the person can function correctly for once and realize buddha nature.  

When you know, you know. 

I said in my initial post the following:"I want to talk about it because this perspective is new for me" My reason for posting was because I had this switch occur that's really in my face and new and awesome. The way I've practiced has worked for me, you'll just have to take my word for it. I have described in detail the entire process that I went through in real-time. I talk about methods and techniques and phenomenology. Now I don't know about you Terry, but back when I was first getting into pragmatic dharma reading practice logs was a very pleasant pass time for me and reading other people's logs and having people comment on my log and point things out has been extremely helpful for me. Shargrol gives so much good advice on my log and so much useful information. Now that I feel some sort of process has been completed, I want to give back to the community in some way. I spent a lot of time writing about my practice because I have found that it's a very useful thing to do. You don't have to read it Terry, I don't care. But if me making this small silly little announcement in some obscure dharma forum informs someone or multiple someones of the existence and location of a thing that has potentially valuable utility for their awakening process, then I want them to know about it. That's the whole point of this forum sir. 

Hey Sigma, can you talk about the investigation factor and how that works with metta?

         The 7 factors of awakening are interrelated and developing one factor encourages the development of the other factors. I am not a scholar of Buddhism so I can only speak from direct perceptual experience.
        Investigation is a faculty of mind that arises which has an inherently curious nature to it. With strong mindfulness and energy, the mind perceives vibrations and subtlety in all the sense doors, and that nuance and subtlety naturally show the mind certain things. In the context of metta practice, I practiced in a way where the intention of goodwill was what I was trying to generate. With the strong mindfulness, energy, tranquility, equanimity and other factors, it seems like the mind has a sort of natural curiosity that comes through. It’s not trying to be curious it’s genuinely curios. When you start to notice reality at a finer-grained level the natural reaction may be curiosity, i.e. investigation. What would happen is the mind would start generating that intention and I would experience the sensations that start to happen:
        Visual images in the mind’s eye, something called “intention”, physical feelings of joy and pleasure, vibrational physical sensations, thoughts, all these things are happening, and the mind simply becomes curious about the questions:
        Who is this “other” that I’m wishing goodwill toward? What’s that made of in terms of sensations. What actual sensations indicate that the beneficiary that I’m sending metta to is “other”. Are they really other? Am I sending an imaginary feeling to an imaginary mental construct? What is the point of that? What happens when I switch from sending metta and instead imagine myself as the recipient and the sender as other? Does it matter? You play with these perspectives and those questions are being mulled over and thought about in the background while you’re noticing simple sensations and how they relate to big ideas like “love” “goodwill” and you get obsessed with what the felt experience of those actually consists of.  At a developed level you can have conscious thoughts of curiosity that doesn’t displace mindful awareness. Metta can lead to direct experiences of non-duality because if you’re doing it right at it’s core it works on a duality of self-other and the experience of metta involves a direct “wrestling” with this concept by trying to “send” something to another. You can see initially when your mind sits down the self-other construct is strong but once the mind starts into high eq you directly see the self-other duality breaking down. My experience with metta is that at a developed level there is no sending going on. Metta can be thought of as air it's everywhere all the time. ​​​​​​​

I perceive myself just happening basically. There's a tumbly aspect to it like I'm so close to experience that I perceptually go cross eyed basically. And that is just a default there is no emphasis or special heriarchy on the self-sensations.

 I said some stuff about my perceptual state on my log in a few recent entries and and I'll just copy/paste it here:

​​​​​​​ 1 day 21 hours ago #115941
Replied by SigmaTropic on topic Sam's practice log

It's strange, doing some standing practice just now it feels like energetically before this transition there was always an energetic knot, and that thing just feels open and free now. Its a knot that used to form when I stood, and it's really remarkable actually because before if i started the practice again after a period of not doing it there would be a process of knots coming out and energetic twisted-ness. But that doesn't seem to be the case when I sit or stand, today, I can go into jhanas just like before, actually is like the mind is always right of the verge of jhana. The energy is smooth and consistent. I stood wu chi for probably 15 minutes and then baloon stance and same thing, body is just sensations floating in space. All sense phenomena are just self-terminating and right as a matter of fact where they are, there doesn't seem to be a center emphasis. 

I am falling face forward into the present moment with no separation between "me" and phenomena within which to suffer. I'm tripping over  and imploding into the present moment and continually tumbling through space and time. It feels like there's no gap that "I" can hang out in between experience and perception and compare one experience to another because I'm perfectly synched up with experience and there's no artificial thing going on it's very hard to describe perceptually but it feels so right. That's the best way I can describe the lack of separation between me and phenomena. It's a feeling of ongoing falling and tumbling and bouncing and it's all just happening perfectly. I think i felt some sadness though but that was equally in my face and I tripped over that too, or you could say, was tackled by it.

So this is definitely what I came for. The crazy part is I can see the same stuff that would be sending me into imbalance but it just automatically self-terminates just like every other thing arising. I was feeling a bit of a depression earlier on my drive home from work, then just got to playing my guitar and singing and it's amazing how having that intimacy with what's happening while at the same time not, ever, even a little bit perceptually distorted with some center. There's like this automatic right-sizing of everything all by itself, and the beautiful thing is that nothing about the field is different but it's like there's no gap between me and experience it feels like there's no "room" for anything but the experience itself within the perceptual frame. It really feels like I'm tumbling into and falling into the present moment. 

You are welcome

You are welcome. 

Congratulations on the massive breakthrough!

Also, thank you so much for sharing in detail -- it is encouraging!

A few questions come to mind:

(1) How long have you been practicing (maybe this is covered in your practice log, but I'd appreciate a brief overview, keeping in mind there is practicing and 'practicing').

(2) How long have you been in this breakthrough state of non-attachment?  Did it just come on like a light switch or was there an evident process to it?

(3) Are there things you find more difficult to do which are a more-or-less useful part of living  For example: running fast; cramming for an exam; perhaps channelling a sub-personality (to do something like acting or playing piano). Anything?

(4) Now that you don't need to come back, do you intend to?

(5) Can you share some most helpful teachers or other sources you think might be useful to others -- or to an earlier you?

"When you know, you know."

(pardon the interruption, gagged on this)


what about when you know you know you know? self concept keeps on arising...


the knower can't be known... 

the known is a drop of oil on the buddha's foot...


tao tao not tao

​​​​​​​t

(1) I've been practicing for 7 years. I would consider the first 5 years to be very serious 2-3 hours a day and dedicated with a good basis in fundamentals and then after that it has gone by itself automatically. 
(2) It's been a couple months now.  
(3) Not at all. I function way better like this. Everything is meditative. I'm in a constant state of flow. 
(4) Yes I'm here to be useful and help people 
(5) The Mind Illuminated book by John Yates (Culadasa). 

I would say the Mind Illuminated is a Great Book. I did TMI solid 2 hours a day for 4 years and I had a lot of experience with metta. After that time I got to the upper stages and felt like for me at least the insights release fetters and when fetters drop meditation is enhanced. So I got the result the TMI book says you'll get

For teachers try to just go to dharma meetups online and get involved in a community.

I thought this was amusing:Took me a while but here's a page i found earlier, archived in case it gets deleted.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.pemakobuddhism.com/43012

sweet!

I lived a stone's throw from the corner of haight and ashbury back in the day...

1478 haight...


suzuki sensai maybe greatest american buddhist teacher ever...


we used to wear flowers in our hair...

​​​​​​​(still do)

you don't need a fireman to know where the smoke's coming from...

Nor need be an expert to know where the fart came from!  

Hello sir (Terry)

I am an Arhat. An educated man who has seen the world. A student of human behaviour. A connoiseur of rhetoric and poetry in 3 different languages. A victor as well as the vanquished of many battles in life.

And I can smell something burning, ..... and it stinks!

It stinks to the high heavens!

Hi sig!

i just noticed your reply from 6 days ago. up here:  https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23678680#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_23722076


Quite a good attempt at answering my question and yes words get in the way sometimes (object in a buddhuist sense vs. object in the sense of sexual politics) but your language leaves you open to misunderstanding/ criticism.   Lacking in empathy perhaps, if you were female how would you react? With a phrase like that I felt like i was at the oscars last night! 


edit: the link didn't work so I unliked it and now it does :-(

pleased to meet you, adi...<br /><br />&nbsp;<br />&nbsp; &nbsp; I graduated college in denver and took my clinical year of training in greeley. Friends in denver smiled mysteriously when I told them I was moving to greeley, but i thought it was just a hick town. Turns out, it is the only city in america which has a slaughterhouse within the city limits.<br /><br />&nbsp; The local university during spring break spread raw goat manure on the campus grounds for fertilizer, reasoning that it was cheap and no one would notice the additional smell.<br /><br />&nbsp; &nbsp;I found it very noticeable and questioned the locals on what they thought about living with these noisome odors. They told me:<br /><br />&nbsp; &nbsp;<em>It is the smell of money.</em><br /><br />hey, goat ropers need love too...<br /><br /><br />terry

Pleased to meet you Sir

It seems like some people here are thrilled for you while others are sceptical. I can't tell whether or not you are done, but it seems to have been going in the right direction and I'm happy for you and for us all. I also just want to thank you for helpful feedback in my log. All the best wishes! 

I have not done extensive checking but from what I did and can say he seems to know how to do Nibbana. The kind that causes cold wind as all energy is rushing toward it. Level indicates good concentration skills. Looks like his default state is jhanic with interesting colors. Most probably formless because I didn't sense quality of form there.

If he says he is done I would believe him, he means business.

@sigmatropic
Your sense of self kinda feels like my brothers.
I hope basic investigations are fine by you.

Also I hope you will be active on DhO. It is fun place with lots of cool people

Thanks for your reading Ni.   I am glad to be here. I can sense the dharmic force is strong in you as well!   

I would say it depends on the female in question.
Some might get triggered while others might start playing with their hairs.

In either way if you don't notice that she is in fact attractive then you will get the full wrath, no matter how you refer to her as. And rightfully so. It is believe it or not the universal law

As a moderator, I’m asking myself what women new to this forum would think about stereotypical comments such as these, and I think they might be one of the reasons that there are so few female mambers here. Please just don’t!

From things of substance I only have my bowl and fast Buddha. My Zen master instructed me that I should carry my bowl with me, not myself. He didn't say anything about the Buddha... but I guess its fine because Buddha didn't ever mention the bowl. And should he need one there's one already there.

Rest is smoke, mirrors, sunshine and rainbows. Dharma too I guess but my Zen master said I didn't actually learn a single thing!
I know however that no stick has one end so I guess I know at least something ;)

You Hinayana or Mahayana?
Literally the question is if you made Bodhisattva vow.

Mahayana. The way I see it, there is still dukkha in the world, I could emanate rainbows and sunshine out my heart all day or I could help others blow rainbows and sunshine. 

I believe that the way to improve situation is using various solutions to solve various issues. Some solutions already exists, some do not. Some are easier to implement, some are harder and some are impossible because certain dependencies are not met. Some issues are not severe and not deteriorating so solutions can wait, some are not serious but deteriorating so immediate attention is needed, some issues definitely need any solution even if by itself not super skillful but even in this case one should act skillfully.

Thankfully for issues people have here usually no immediate solutions are needed.
It is one of these places where people struggle with at most own stubbornness and overreacting to subtlest of things and like everyone also tired neurons and some also with this undefined limbo time in the morning before morning coffee

ps. Emanating sunshine from the heart I think is a good idea for Bodhisattva... especially one called Sun does great job giving genuine sunshine! So warm and so huggable, like ball of luminous glowing joy. Burns my soul to crisp each time I hug it, wonder why ;)

Hi Sigma, 

What did you do in your daily life as practice pre-stream entry?

I was lucky to work in a chemistry lab doing research, and that lent itself to listening to Eckhart tolle, Alan Watts, Thanissaro Bhikku talks, etc. while I was working in the lab doing experiements. There was a good mix of physical and mental activity involved with my lab work so it lend itself quite well to simply paying attention in a broad sense all the time. I was pondering the intellectual ideas that Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle and other spiritual teachers talked about on that level, but also using some of the basic Eckhart Tolle practices to return to presence and regain a sense of mindfulness.

Mindfulness of the body was my go-to anchor for coming back to mindful presence after falling into contraction and suffering. I would try to pay attention to my body and mind while I was working, and then when I would contract and suffer I would pay attention to the patterns and I noticed that listening to Eckhart allowed me to return to presence, then with that return tactic I would stay aware of the body. At certain points I also would send metta during my walks to/from lab and around the campus. I di that quite a bit, and while walking I was either radiating metta non-discriminately or doing body breeathing from stage 6 TMI while i was walking. I learned how to subdue the hindrances on the spot in daily life.

I also went to 12 step meetings and had a structure around those steps and I won't get into that but going to meetings provided a structure and a community of&nbsp; spiritually-minded people. I met people through those meeting, some of whom are very spiritually developed. They talk about actual practices they do in these meetings- not insight practices but sila practices. The 12 steps can be seen as a sila guide and for me I came to meditation through problems with substances and that was a natural way to work on the morality aspect of the path. That was very useful at that point.&nbsp;

Being mindful of my body and being aware of contractions/suffering when I get triggered seems like a really helpful pointer. Thank you!

Friend,

  In 2017, December 16, evening,I was contemplating the jhana mentality,from the first jhana mentalities till 7th jhana's mentalities to contemplate them as annica dukkha anatta,before I enter to the 8th,I make the determination to enter to cessation,after I  had experienced of the mind ceased, totally ceased.it last only 15 or 20 mins, but I don't know what not was, because I'm still not sure I was in the stage two or 3, according to your experience, what is your opinion?do you think is it nirodha sampati? In such a short time?I never can be able to enter to the total cessation of the mind since then, but everytime when I was using the same method, the great energy arose.
This is the biggest doubt in my whole practice.do you have any suggestions for my case?
With gratitude
Metta

With deep gratitude for your words!
I'm still digesting every single words you shared from heart.need more times to contemplate them into actual practise,into the way I see my whole practise,the perception I had, the sankhara .i had strong habitual tendencies with paauk method as in the past 8years fully distributed day and night meditation.so the way I reflect dhamma not so open I need to admit.also due to the past few years till present,I seldom contact and talk to people and stay in forest alone, I didn't advance that much.the note was written several years ago.these few years I tried to use goenka's method,and other method I read in the books,they can always bring me to the emptiness experience.but these days I didn't sit that much as the past, sometimes I would walk into the forest stay with the trees  with  animals ,with everything around me, sometimes I would help others with their practice if they need.but no matter what I did, I keep checking this mind, is it free,are there any blockage?if not, I will try to find tout the cause and effect.but most of time,I can dissolve anything arise in the heart, and stay in peace.
Today, it's such an honour to received your light!I found out even I had practice no short time, but somehow, this mind, this perception, it is so much complicated,it always has layer for me to open, in the past, I tried to learn to master my dream, sometimes I can,in those days intensive practice time, I did my contemplation in the dream.but now,I still feel,this mind ,I'm not that familiar with yet.
I had a feeling, only Buddha he himself can be 100%master his mind.

Today I keep this thought:nibbana and the samsara is the same, development of nibbana skill.allow me to go more deeper.
How can I reach you offline? Maybe I can also tried to practise the guru yoga you shared.

With gratitude again for your compassion atd sharing.

Metta

23SigmaTropic@mybodhisattva.com

Buddha in what sense? Siddhattha Gotama?

I myself treat him as my Yin teacher.
He doesn't seem to have single idea about Yæn but that is what makes his outlook on dark side of the force so refined and valuable.

Dark side... yup, Buddha Jedi was not!

Some types of meditation produce a state of emotional numbness. Do you think that indicates it is taking a person in the wrong direction?

How do you know what is an intrinsic part of the awakening process and what is just a secondary artifact of the type of meditation/practices you happen to be doing?

Thanks

(... replying to Sigma but I'm interested in answers from anyone)

What types of meditation are you referring to? Sounds like something to avoid, because yes, that definitely sounds like the wrong direction to me. Thankfully, my practice has opened me up to richer nuances of emotion. I want the whole rainbow.

I’m interested in Sigma’s answer as well.

Sometimes when meditating, my mind just feels like shutting down and ignoring everything, like letting go of responsibility, like not caring about anything, almost nihilistic. If I go with that, after the meditation session, my mind is very quiet and I feel emotionally numb. In a way it feels like letting go, like anatta, like no one's there. I don't know where it would go if I really persisted in that direction.

The way I usually mediate helps to eliminate unpleasant emotions and cravings but what remains in their absence is not numbness it is something nice.

After cessation/fruition there is an "afterglow" so I'm assuming "nice" is an indicator of the right direction, that nibbana is nice not numb.

Thankyou for sharing more nuances! I'm just reflecting as a fellow traveller, trippling on my own detours and nowhere near any final answer, if such a thing exists, so take anything I say with due amounts of salt.

​​​​​​​When you put it like that, I'm not sure that avoiding the practice is necessarily the best thing to do, so I'm sorry for saying that in the first place. Maybe there's something there that needs to be uncovered. It could be the case that you get numb because you are getting close to seeing something that you have defenses against (as I think we all have). Numbness can be a shield. Numbness itself is certainly not where I would want to go as an endgoal, but I think that sometimes we might need to go through it in order to eventually open up to even richer nuances beyond our shields. Does that make any sense? 

I don't think that the practice can always lead to immediate releases and nice feelings, not if we want it to be real. So it could be that you are on to something, something that might take a while to disentangle. I'd go with investigating it, patiently and in a pace that works for you, while at the same time also taking care of yourself in any way that you need in order not to get too stuck in onesided emptiness without its inherent aliveness. It seems to me that you have developed great tools for taking care of yourself, and if I had to pick someone to bet on as a candidate for getting stuck in nihilistic numbness, it wouldn't be you. I believe you'll always find your way through that sort of thing. 

I'm sure others can give you advice more thoroghly grounded in wisdom. I just wanted to correct my previous mistake. I wish you all the best. 

Might be interesting to try it and see ...

Regarding numbness, in my view numbness could mean that bodily fabrications have ceased through various processes, there can be a fading of perception that occurs during samatha where whatever is decided to be ignored or not relevant to the object, the perception of it is changed and/or absent. This is a direct insight into dependent arising if you see that the lack of clinging in relation to those sense perceptions leads to their fading from conscious experience. This is direclty obvious when you go into bodily and mental pliancy in meditation. 

But emotional numbness is kinda the same way, when there is no clinging to the sense perceptions around the identity it's like emotions are all survival responses to protect an identity. But numbness is generally not a state that seems generally useful, and even if those responses are not necessary there are other ways that variety and change are experienced. More like different flows of energy.  Numbness as word assumes the condition of an experiencer and a sensation. So it depends on the intention of the experience(r). 

And whether the practice or the realization is what conditions this experience right now, well my view is that the practice one is doing is an interrelated and inseparable phenomena from the realization.  If one is realized one probably did something to get realized and then they may do  the same things that worked before and learn new stuff.  

Jim for your case it sounds like there is mental and physical pliancy or pacification, and when you enter the deeper stages of samatha it is normal to be kinda cut off from typical senses. There is a pleasant flow of energy when I sit and there is a sense of pleasantness that's not normal consciousness. The key to developing the mind further is to expand the mind into the new landscape of what is in your sense perception. All that energy going toward feeling bodily fabrications and mental fabrications is still there and you want to still strive for clear perception. But when you get to that pliant "tamed" elephant state then you put the extra energy toward investigation of mind nature itself.