RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 9:34 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Matt Jon Rousseau 5/27/22 4:52 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/27/22 5:18 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chrollo X 5/27/22 6:13 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/27/22 8:03 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chris M 5/28/22 8:33 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/28/22 1:35 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Ni Nurta 5/28/22 1:26 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/28/22 1:35 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Ni Nurta 5/28/22 2:47 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chrollo X 5/28/22 4:48 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/28/22 11:09 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/28/22 11:07 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/29/22 3:29 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/29/22 3:25 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/29/22 6:09 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chrollo X 5/29/22 6:09 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/29/22 3:29 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/29/22 7:30 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 12:47 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/29/22 7:34 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Adi Vader 5/29/22 7:39 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 12:44 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 1:16 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 1:50 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 12:40 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Ni Nurta 5/30/22 1:06 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 3:14 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 9:27 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Adi Vader 5/31/22 10:46 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/31/22 12:53 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chris M 5/30/22 1:15 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:17 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 9:17 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:24 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 3:36 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chris M 5/30/22 4:32 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chris M 5/30/22 4:36 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:27 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:36 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 3:38 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:40 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 3:43 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:46 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:47 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path terry 5/30/22 3:48 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Chris M 5/30/22 4:48 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/22 3:57 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 5/30/22 9:21 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Papa Che Dusko 5/31/22 5:21 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Michael Taylor 6/1/22 9:48 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Hanjo Youtaku 6/1/22 10:05 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Michael Taylor 6/1/22 9:53 PM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Jack Farrell 7/19/22 10:01 AM
RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path Val Keinen 8/20/22 5:27 PM
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:34 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/25/22 2:34 AM

Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Hey I am Hanjo Youtaku, Ph.D and I had my first big permanent release of suffering in November 2020. I have now deepened into the present moment to the extent that now if something is not in my present moment experience I am not able to separate myself into experiencing it.  I also have a post here for my siddhi's: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23905819

Regarding standard models of attainment on the path of insight, the way I like to express my present state is full non-separation from the present moment.

Articulating into the particular characteristics:
  1. No sense of self whatsoever in body, perception, no doership whatsoever, no separate beings in any part of experience.
  2. A strong experential sense of aliveness corresponding to a granular impermanence wherein there is nothing perceived as a continuous separate object.
  3. No attachment to forms, no attachment to states associated with forms, all states that were separated into dependence on forms available in moment to moment experience.
  4. Everything fully being what it is to the extent that there is no projection or relationship to things or between them, everything self luminous and expressing its own nature perfectly, each thing self aware.
  5. Fully harmonized smoothness to senses sense doors unified and integrated.
  6. Release of fundamental greed and aversion in the present moment, no desire to have something better than the present moment, no desire to avoid something bad in the present moment.
  7. Most recently, fundamental across all experience realization at even the particle level, fine-grained and particular release of 'beingness', 'permanence', etc at even the most specific and small-scale parts of experience. The way this manifests is that my experience is 24/7 a kind of field of awareness (without any separation arising from that awareness or the present moment).
The things that still are in my experience are:
  1. Unconscious habits and karma that immediately release upon being experienced, smooth outflow of karmic patterns and habits.
  2. (And specifically...) Heart-oriented healings that unfold as releases of emotions in alignment with point 1. 
Thankfully have the support structure to deal with these (my wonderful wife).

The curious thing for me is that I have never aroused a state through concentration, a jhana, or had a regular sitting practice. My path was maintaining a 24/7 inquiry into self combined with firm resolution to become fully enlightened as soon as possible for the benefit of all beings, mixed with some shamanism.
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 4:52 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 4:52 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 80 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
 Congratulations  May I ask about your shaman practice 
​​​​​​​
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 5:18 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 5:18 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Thank you Matt. My shamanic practice is to be in conversation with the world as full of beings, buddhas, devas, angels, all kinds of beneficial positive spirits that are waiting and willing to aid me if I only ask. This is connected to my resolution practice, inviting various deities and entities I feel connected to to bring about whatever changes I am asking the universe for. For example, I invoke multiple times per day that "I accept any and all aid from any and all positive and higher beings that are here to benefit me". There are similar practices, and this is the main thread. Written intentions before psychedelic usage, specifically asking e.g. the mushroom spirit to connect me with insight into the "no-self" characteristic of reality. 
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 6:13 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 6:13 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
In the way that you've done it, do you have instructions into how to inquire into self and how to do it 24/7?
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 8:03 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/27/22 8:03 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Thanks for this question Chrollo X. It's a hard one for me to answer, as it's something cultivated unconsciously and unintentionally. My path was one of receiving teachings e.g. from Chinese Zen, and pondering on them for so long that the style of inquiry became enmeshed with my own self. A lot of my post-enlightenment cultivation has been letting go of these conditioned patterns as they are no longer needed, this kind of brutal 24/7 inquiry into everything no matter if it's beneficial or not. If you'd like it not exactly how I did it, but a way that's maybe more beneficial and consciously cultivated, I would take each phenomena and experience as an opportunity to examine it.
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 8:33 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 8:33 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hello, Hanjo.

I'm curious about the title you chose for this thread as it relates to your practice. You are not, it seems, a Theravada practitioner, yet you chose the words "4th Path" to describe yourself. Why?

Thanks!
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 1:35 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 10:58 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Hi Chris, I found the robust definitions in MCTB to be useful for sharing across what's occurring in my own experience. This thread is also an invitation for people versed in attainment maps to give me their take on where I fit in.

EDIT: Felt into this more. I also respect the proposition that the insight path of moving towards less and less suffering has an end no matter what path you take, and 4th path in this forum is shorthand for end of the insight path.
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Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 1:26 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 1:26 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 931 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
4th path aside, what is the reason for out of all things claiming 'buddhahood'?
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 1:35 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 1:31 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
The process of entering into what I call Buddhahood came after the release of all suffering and beingness that caused suffering at even the most granular scale. The natural samsaric tension of physicality aside. It was in communion with a variety of Tibetan buddhist teachers energetically who made clear the standard of Buddhahood as a detachment from all forms. With that awareness, I entered into an enlightenment portal via a thangka of the life of Buddha which was proferred to me in that experience as a Buddha portal. (I witnessed a form/structure that had a felt sense of Buddhahood and was resonating that frequency, you could say, and merged with it) From then on, the subtle attachment to any form arising left my experience.

In other words, it's just what came to me as a story/narrative in my own experience. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 2:47 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 2:47 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 931 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
"Detachment from all forms" doesn't to me sound like something you invented hence realizing this idea doesn't in my view qualify you to attaining Buddhahood. Buddhadharma already exists so if you want to become equal to Buddha you need to seek your luck elsewhere. And by elsewhere I mean no other tradition but create everything from ground up.

What you have probably works well with little need to invent new dharma. If you understand it then you should understand why Buddhas come rarely and why you should not claim such things heedlessly.
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 4:48 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 4:48 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
"Detachment from all forms" doesn't to me sound like something you invented hence realizing this idea doesn't in my view qualify you to attaining Buddhahood. Buddhadharma already exists so if you want to become equal to Buddha you need to seek your luck elsewhere. And by elsewhere I mean no other tradition but create everything from ground up.

What you have probably works well with little need to invent new dharma. If you understand it then you should understand why Buddhas come rarely and why you should not claim such things heedlessly.




To this point, Buddhas are a rare thing apparently, only coming when there is no dharma in the world. No one can claim Buddhhahood. Arhatship sure. But, I think that's a Theravadan view. Mahayanas think everyone can become a Buddha -- I think that's pretty sweet. 
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 11:07 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 11:07 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
"Detachment from all forms" doesn't to me sound like something you invented hence realizing this idea doesn't in my view qualify you to attaining Buddhahood. Buddhadharma already exists so if you want to become equal to Buddha you need to seek your luck elsewhere. And by elsewhere I mean no other tradition but create everything from ground up.

What you have probably works well with little need to invent new dharma. If you understand it then you should understand why Buddhas come rarely and why you should not claim such things heedlessly.

The dharma is always the same.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 11:09 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/28/22 11:09 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Chrollo X
Ni Nurta
"Detachment from all forms" doesn't to me sound like something you invented hence realizing this idea doesn't in my view qualify you to attaining Buddhahood. Buddhadharma already exists so if you want to become equal to Buddha you need to seek your luck elsewhere. And by elsewhere I mean no other tradition but create everything from ground up.

What you have probably works well with little need to invent new dharma. If you understand it then you should understand why Buddhas come rarely and why you should not claim such things heedlessly.




To this point, Buddhas are a rare thing apparently, only coming when there is no dharma in the world. No one can claim Buddhhahood. Arhatship sure. But, I think that's a Theravadan view. Mahayanas think everyone can become a Buddha -- I think that's pretty sweet. 


In Ch'an, Mind is Buddha
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:25 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:25 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
aloha hanjo,

   It seems to me that proclaiming one's attainment is essentially egotistical.

   Especially when there is no express point to doing so. No transmission, no dharma.

   "I'm king of the hill." So what? Who cares? What difference does your enlightenment make to the liberation of sentient being(s)?

   Not a rhetorical question, not casting mud or minding someone else's business. This is about the pratyekabuddhas and the bodhisattvas.

   Achievement is not achievement. That's why it is called achievement. It is the stone rejected that is the headstone.

   If there is any merit here it belongs to your wife.

terry
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:29 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:29 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
right on, bra...

​​​​​​​+1
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:29 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 3:29 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
the plus one was supposed to be a reply to ni nurta's observations...
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 6:09 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 6:07 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
terry
aloha hanjo,

   It seems to me that proclaiming one's attainment is essentially egotistical.

   Especially when there is no express point to doing so. No transmission, no dharma.

   "I'm king of the hill." So what? Who cares? What difference does your enlightenment make to the liberation of sentient being(s)?

   Not a rhetorical question, not casting mud or minding someone else's business. This is about the pratyekabuddhas and the bodhisattvas.

   Achievement is not achievement. That's why it is called achievement. It is the stone rejected that is the headstone.

   If there is any merit here it belongs to your wife.

terry
Hi Terry, thanks for this message. Certainly confused about the last part, how would the merit belong to my wife if there was merit? Perhaps this is a joke or insult that I'm missing.

Regarding talking about attainments as an inherent 'no-go' or taboo, I certainly disagree. I perceive it as extremely useful to the liberation of all sentient beings to have people articulating their own experience, creating maps for others to evaluate their own awakening. 

This is of course just one part of how my enlightenment benefits all sentient beings. I also teach and create culture.
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 6:09 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 6:09 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Don't mind him. Terry always speaks in some strange riddle and he's completely off the mark sometimes. He thinks you're being cocky for some reason.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:30 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:30 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
I don't know how to reply, deathray must have gotten another downgrade...

so I'll cut and paste...


you said:

Hi Terry, thanks for this message. Certainly confused about the last part, how would the merit belong to my wife if there was merit? Perhaps this is a joke or insult that I'm missing.

Regarding talking about attainments as an inherent 'no-go' or taboo, I certainly disagree. I perceive it as extremely useful to the liberation of all sentient beings to have people articulating their own experience, creating maps for others to evaluate their own awakening. 

This is of course just one part of how my enlightenment benefits all sentient beings. I also teach and create culture.


   
As to your confusion, I was referring to this statement:

Thankfully have the support structure to deal with these (my wonderful wife).

   Here is credit given where credit is conceivably due. The rest was self promotion. You reason that such self promotion is good for liberating sentient beings. While there may be a value in telling your story, what good it does you depends on to what degree you assume a cloak of authority. For the most part, people talk up their attainments in order to present themselves as teachers and creators of culture.

   What a crock of shit!

   One needs only examine the motivation. Do you seek to understand and help beings, or to gain the admiration of others? However justified you may imagine that admiration to be.

   When I hear I I I I I... I do this I learned that I achieved this I can do powers I I I I I then I know without looking very far that we are dealing with ego ego ego ego ego.

   But don't mind me, I don't know anything, and certainly don't know you.

​​​​​​​terry


ps   I don't think commenting on a self created teachers lack of authenticity is taboo.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:34 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:34 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
and as for chrollo...


Don't mind him. Terry always speaks in some strange riddle and he's completely off the mark sometimes. He thinks you're being cocky for some reason.
​​​​​​​

mebbe so

(cheeky buggah)


Adi Vader, modified 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:39 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/29/22 7:38 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 162 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Hello Hanjo

I havent read your work, I am also kind of lazy so I don't read people's stuff unless I need to ..... and now I don't need to.

Generally I have personally taken a lot of inspiration from people who straight up say that they have attained something and use detailed language to describe it. Such public declarations motivate, inspire and educate ... those who want it. There are a lot of people who don't want it! They are free to simply scroll forward. I have also met people who make such declarations in order to feel good about themselves, compensate for something missing in their own lives. It is usually such people that dilute what these words stand for. This dilution leads to other people 'attaining' the same thing and then expressing dissatisfaction, incompleteness and basically devaluing what the attainment stands for. For example I have encountered people who claim very high attainments and in the next sentence they talk about how their lives still have negative emotions (a lot of it).

On the whole though - simple straight forward declarations of victory against the defilements and how it has been achieved is a fantastic thing to do, and a net positive for any community in my honest opinion.

In short - I am very happy to know that you have found something that you set out to achieve, and hope that it stands the test of time.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:44 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:44 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
Hello Hanjo

I havent read your work, I am also kind of lazy so I don't read people's stuff unless I need to ..... and now I don't need to.

Generally I have personally taken a lot of inspiration from people who straight up say that they have attained something and use detailed language to describe it. Such public declarations motivate, inspire and educate ... those who want it. There are a lot of people who don't want it! They are free to simply scroll forward. I have also met people who make such declarations in order to feel good about themselves, compensate for something missing in their own lives. It is usually such people that dilute what these words stand for. This dilution leads to other people 'attaining' the same thing and then expressing dissatisfaction, incompleteness and basically devaluing what the attainment stands for. For example I have encountered people who claim very high attainments and in the next sentence they talk about how their lives still have negative emotions (a lot of it).

On the whole though - simple straight forward declarations of victory against the defilements and how it has been achieved is a fantastic thing to do, and a net positive for any community in my honest opinion.

In short - I am very happy to know that you have found something that you set out to achieve, and hope that it stands the test of time.

Thanks Adi, I've only listed the things that have been the most stable in my experience. Regarding negative emotions and general life experience, it's absolutely buzzing with peace, happiness and joy.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:47 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:45 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
terry
I don't know how to reply, deathray must have gotten another downgrade...

so I'll cut and paste...


you said:

Hi Terry, thanks for this message. Certainly confused about the last part, how would the merit belong to my wife if there was merit? Perhaps this is a joke or insult that I'm missing.

Regarding talking about attainments as an inherent 'no-go' or taboo, I certainly disagree. I perceive it as extremely useful to the liberation of all sentient beings to have people articulating their own experience, creating maps for others to evaluate their own awakening. 

This is of course just one part of how my enlightenment benefits all sentient beings. I also teach and create culture.


   
As to your confusion, I was referring to this statement:

Thankfully have the support structure to deal with these (my wonderful wife).

   Here is credit given where credit is conceivably due. The rest was self promotion. You reason that such self promotion is good for liberating sentient beings. While there may be a value in telling your story, what good it does you depends on to what degree you assume a cloak of authority. For the most part, people talk up their attainments in order to present themselves as teachers and creators of culture.

   What a crock of shit!

   One needs only examine the motivation. Do you seek to understand and help beings, or to gain the admiration of others? However justified you may imagine that admiration to be.

   When I hear I I I I I... I do this I learned that I achieved this I can do powers I I I I I then I know without looking very far that we are dealing with ego ego ego ego ego.

   But don't mind me, I don't know anything, and certainly don't know you.

​​​​​​​terry


ps   I don't think commenting on a self created teachers lack of authenticity is taboo.

Hi Terry, I don't need admiration or to present myself as anything. Regarding my work in the world, it's doing very well without this post on dharmaoverground. Not to say this hasn't been a wonderful experience, the questions and comments here have felt very rewarding to answer and discuss. I'll admit I find broad ungrounded skepticism to draw me in less, it often feels like negating a bunch of assumptions, but it's not bad at all. Happy to receive it.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:16 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:03 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
I still find it odd to see people having difficulty with what I'm saying most times. My wife told me she was completely taken aback by my presentation of myself but after getting to know me, realized I was actually directly saying exactly what I was and that was inherently confusing. Seems like a pattern across? Plenty of things get projected on me that are not in my experience at all (pretty much exclusively in response to text posts in online communities I am new to). I am plenty satisfied emotionally, in community, etc. Would not be online otherwise. I've also noticed people generally have no idea what to do with posts like this one being written right now where I am just writing what my experience is. Nevertheless, I usually find it useful.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:50 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:50 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
May your liberation benefit all sentient beings! 
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:40 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 12:40 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Thank you Linda. May all beings be happy.
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Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:06 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:06 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 931 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
There are many claims like this on this site, from random people who read more books than they had actual thoughts about how all of this might work. There being one dharma, one rightful path - and of course the path they took - is very common theme too, especially among these people. If they had more exposure they might start thinking and they know thinking hurts so they do not.

And the less person seem to actually understand what they are claiming the more full, complete and done it all according to them is. Like if their mind thrived on absolute and complete lack of thinking. There is of course explanation why that works to eliminate suffering and while I understand why people might go this way and prevent themselves from digging in too deep I do not respect such people when they make ridiculous claims.

Like if you could not say "I seems to have attained Stream Entry" and instead of complete elimination of all suffering say how it really is, that its all so much less bothersome that its as if all suffering seemed to be decision and you just do not have make that choice.

But then it wouldn't be as grandiose, wouldn't it?
Guess what, then if you did just that people might actually admire you. Just a little bit but way more than they do now emoticon



Anyways, I do not believe in your claims and I do not respect you as a person proportionally to your clinging to these claims.
Have a nice enlightened day emoticon
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:15 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 1:15 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Says our resident expert emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:14 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:14 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
NiNurta, haven't you said many times that you are a Buddha? So where does that put you on your map here? emoticon
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:17 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:17 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
the loyal wife who sees only the good in one is perhaps the real source, the maker...


   If enlightenment is looked at as attaining a nondual standpoiht, the transcendence of good and evil is not achieved by proclaiming oneself to be entirely good and  completely free from defilements.  Such a proclamation simply leads to lots of useless discussion about whether someone has achieved what is not only impossible, but what is also a false goal entirely. The wrong direction. Weighing oneself down not only with iron chains but far heavier golden ones.

as dylan says:

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

   The difference between the pratyeka buddha, one who is enlightened for their self, and the bodhisattva, one who foregos enlightenment until all beings are liberated, is significant in all forms of buddhism. Stream enterers and arhats are not buddhas.

   Concern over one's status in terms of advancement on the path is completely delusionary. If you are concerned about your place in the great chain of being, that concern is an impediment on the way and should be given up. You have no status, as your ego-being is a delusion. Your assertions confirm your existence as an individual being and this is why your ego is enhanced and made large by engaging in large public discussions of your ego and its imaginary "achievements."

   Better to be off the mark and speak in riddles. Then it is the mark and the riddle which are attended to, not some delusionary chimera of an individual identity.

​​​​​​​terry
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:24 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:24 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
I see our moderaators still making ad hominem attacks where they dare...

more individual identity delusions more politics

there are only ideas


all phenomena are metaphors

​​​​​​​all are empty of existence
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:27 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:27 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
guy told a joke in line at ace hardware in ocean view just the other day


this guy robs a bank
turns to the next guy in line and says
"did you see me rob this bank?"
"yes I did"
blam! the robber shoots him dead
he asks the next guy in line,
"did you see me rob this bank?"
"no, but my wife here did"
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:36 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:36 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
terry
I see our moderaators still making ad hominem attacks where they dare...

more individual identity delusions more politics

there are only ideas


all phenomena are metaphors

​​​​​​​all are empty of existence


If you have a problem with our comments, you can say so in a straightforward manner and with evidence backing it up instead of implying things.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:36 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:36 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
advice to moderators:

one shouldn't expect people to be consistent

we're all trying to learn and grow and improve

if we are expected to be consistent it tends to encourage us to stick to old outmoded ideas

even good old ideas get stale sometimes
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:38 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:38 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Advice to terry: one shouldn't take people's hearty jokes in-between friends too seriously. 
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:40 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:40 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
I could not possibly be more straightforward...

​​​​​​​you could try putting words in my mouth
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:43 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:43 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
You have a lot to learn about being straightforward, terry. You are one of the least straightforward persons I have ever encountered.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:46 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:46 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
it's about ideas, not about personalities

repeat x100
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:47 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:47 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
you've not encountered me yet
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:48 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:48 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2196 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
and you are still thinking in terms of personalities, LINDA
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:57 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 3:57 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Terry, if you haven't got anything substantial to protest about, but are just implying things about the ideas of moderators, then forgive me if I'll just ignore it. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:32 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:01 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... ad hominem attacks...

Attacks? Good heavens, terry. You seem a bit out of sorts today. Is everything okay?

By the way, I'll be coming your way again in the not too distant future. Shall we try to do a meetup? We failed miserably last time.
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:36 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:36 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
My comment to Ni Nurta was, upon reflection and a re-reading, snarky. Not an attack, but definitely snarky.

My apologies, Ni.
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:48 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 4:48 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 4536 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I once had a coworker who had an ability to push my buttons in a way that I found irresistible not to reply to. Best thing I ever did was stop replying. The button pushing stopped not too long after that.

​​​​​​​emoticon
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:27 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:09 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
There are many claims like this on this site, from random people who read more books than they had actual thoughts about how all of this might work. There being one dharma, one rightful path - and of course the path they took - is very common theme too, especially among these people. If they had more exposure they might start thinking and they know thinking hurts so they do not.

And the less person seem to actually understand what they are claiming the more full, complete and done it all according to them is. Like if their mind thrived on absolute and complete lack of thinking. There is of course explanation why that works to eliminate suffering and while I understand why people might go this way and prevent themselves from digging in too deep I do not respect such people when they make ridiculous claims.

Thanks for this comment Ni Nurta. I see you have put a substantial amount of work into observing general trends of claiming attainments.

Like if you could not say "I seems to have attained Stream Entry" and instead of complete elimination of all suffering say how it really is

I have certainly been liberated from all suffering related to 'being' for at least 6 months now. This is one of my most consistent and steadfast liberations. Wishing you happiness.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:17 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:14 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
terry
Your assertions confirm your existence as an individual being and this is why your ego is enhanced and made large by engaging in large public discussions of your ego and its imaginary "achievements."
The assumption that speaking with an I pronoun and describing your own experience by necessity means you are contained within paradigms like ego, achievements, or seeking admiration is simply not true (and this is a core insight of Buddhism). Interested to explore this pattern generally. Would you consider Daniel Ingram to be doing the same thing when he talks about his own attainments and describes what 4th path is for him? 
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:21 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/30/22 9:21 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
Terry, if you haven't got anything substantial to protest about, but are just implying things about the ideas of moderators, then forgive me if I'll just ignore it. 

Wishing you happiness Linda. Being a moderator is hard and substantially giving. May your path of service benefit you.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 5/31/22 5:21 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 5/31/22 5:20 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 2459 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
For all involved

I have spare toilet paper in case someone needs it! emoticon You can see it as Dana offering! emoticon

May all ... dandy and all that! emoticon
Adi Vader, modified 3 Months ago at 5/31/22 10:46 AM
Created 3 Months ago at 5/31/22 10:44 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 162 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Hi Ni

Love your map!

I personally have transcended all maps, in fact I am so freakin woke I am thinking of selling Adi mirrors emoticon emoticon

Every time I open DhO, I think of the Preeti mirror, I double over in laughter. My kids think I have gone bonkers emoticon

​​​​​​​Edit: Hanjo, sorry for derailing the thread
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 3 Months ago at 5/31/22 12:53 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 5/31/22 12:52 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
Hi Ni

Love your map!

I personally have transcended all maps, in fact I am so freakin woke I am thinking of selling Adi mirrors emoticon emoticon

Every time I open DhO, I think of the Preeti mirror, I double over in laughter. My kids think I have gone bonkers emoticon

Edit: Hanjo, sorry for derailing the thread
That's okay, always interesting to see how communities react to stuff like this.
Michael Taylor, modified 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 9:48 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 9:48 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 10 Join Date: 1/31/22 Recent Posts
Dear sir,
I'm curious as to why you have chosen or embraced the 4th path mode of enlightenment. Did your past include experiences that coincided with written works from that tradition? From reading through both of your threads on this forum, I see you have listed attainments and experiences of being your reason to claim attainment of 4th path. But none of them seem to relate to the traditional model of what it means to have entered that stage of liberation. Would you mind elaborating as to why you have placed yourself in this tradition or paradigm? I ask as someone who most assuredly is NOT at that level.
But I do believe Mr. Ingram has a hot tub that you will be asked to sit in soon.
Thanks for posting,
Michael
Michael Taylor, modified 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 9:53 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 9:53 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 10 Join Date: 1/31/22 Recent Posts
Just reread this thread and noticed that you did say "release from all suffering and beingness attached with suffering" and then answered this question in relation to Mr Ingrams work.
Hanjo Youtaku, modified 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 10:05 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 6/1/22 10:02 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 38 Join Date: 5/23/22 Recent Posts
Michael Taylor Dear sir, I'm curious as to why you have chosen or embraced the 4th path mode of enlightenment. Did your past include experiences that coincided with written works from that tradition? From reading through both of your threads on this forum, I see you have listed attainments and experiences of being your reason to claim attainment of 4th path. But none of them seem to relate to the traditional model of what it means to have entered that stage of liberation. Would you mind elaborating as to why you have placed yourself in this tradition or paradigm? I ask as someone who most assuredly is NOT at that level. But I do believe Mr. Ingram has a hot tub that you will be asked to sit in soon. Thanks for posting, Michael


Hi Michael, thanks for the question. 4th path is congruent with my present moment to experience as described in MCTB, and the book itself was powerful in that it gave me the opportunity to integrate magic into my day-to-day 24/7 inquiry by repeating resolutions out loud to become fully enlightened as soon as possible for the benefit of all beings. Also gathered from it was a good understanding of ethics and consent in spirituality (among others). 
Jack Farrell, modified 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 10:01 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 7/19/22 10:01 AM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Post: 1 Join Date: 7/19/22 Recent Posts
This was a very interesting thread to read, first time here. Thank you for sharing your attainments! I have no personal attachment to the words used to describe it, personally I would be skeptical of something as potentially grandiose as Buddhahood and whatnot, but, describing your path and the results you've found from it was an inspiration.

Some people seem very reactive to such claims, as if there is a tarnishable quality to the truth of awakening that needs protection. Wishing you all well!
Val Keinen, modified 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 5:27 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 5:27 PM

RE: Claiming Buddhahood, 4th path

Posts: 23 Join Date: 8/19/22 Recent Posts
Hey Hanjo,

Did I understand correctly that Ramana Maharshi style self-inquiry was your primary practice?

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