RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Pontus Andersson 8/13/22 6:00 PM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? George S 8/14/22 1:13 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/22 4:04 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Dream Walker 8/14/22 7:24 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Pontus Andersson 8/14/22 1:32 PM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? shargrol 8/14/22 7:18 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Pontus Andersson 8/19/22 3:02 PM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Siavash ' 8/19/22 10:24 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Pontus Andersson 8/19/22 10:42 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? shargrol 8/14/22 7:45 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/22 8:04 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? George S 8/17/22 4:26 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/17/22 6:20 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Chris M 8/17/22 8:19 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Chris M 8/19/22 8:28 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Pontus Andersson 8/19/22 9:07 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Chris M 8/19/22 8:44 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Adi Vader 8/19/22 9:44 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Matt Jon Rousseau 8/20/22 11:10 AM
RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry? Adi Vader 8/20/22 12:12 PM
Pontus Andersson, modified 1 Month ago at 8/13/22 6:00 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/13/22 6:00 PM

Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 8/13/22 Recent Posts
Trying to post again

I've done a fair bit of meditation the last three to four years. Had a breathtaking AnP event couple of years ago, have had several since, though somewhat less fireworky.

Been in the dukkha nanas and up to eq, back and fort, many times. Many blips, or head drops, perhaps momentary formless something, many many times when I've decided to do solo retreats and gotten into eq. Though there was never an event where I truly felt that, it was what I was looking for.

But now, this summer I've practied even more, the last couple of weeks I've been though AnP, to frustraion and what have you in dukkha nanas, to feeling tranquil and at ease in eq. 

For once I've really listened to the advice to get to eq and just letting it do it's thing.

High concentration, yet wide. Aware of the all encompassing present moment to moment. Investigating, yet gently, accepting of anything that wishes to arise and pass. Realizing nothing can force fruition but causality itself. 

Well, last evening I had a session, where there was an unknowing event, presented in a way I've never experienced before. For say half a second, everything just collapsed into itself. Eyes shut, the field of vision either fell into "my face/perspective" or the other way around, followed by an unknowing blip, followed by a profound since of bliss and joy. I for sure felt that was it, and just laughed and felt giddy. A quite subtle feeling I can't accurately describe was present the rest of the evening and most of today.

Though, I don't feel all to different, I don't feel as if my concentration is necessarily more powerful, and I have not yet managed to repeat the event. Obviously I will try, and I will remain somewhat doubtful as I have been until repetition or lack there of can bring clarity.

Anyway, the question I wanted to ask, because it will help me bring clarity, is the following:

The near miss that is mentioned in mctb in equanimty, can it present itself with three door phenomenology, or how does it usually appear?

Because the way this blip presented itself, was like nothing I've had before, although I've had countless blips in eq throughout the last couple of years, that never felt like they completed anything, or presented in this manner.

Yet, I feel doubt that it actually was fruition, obviously because I need to keep practicing and repeat it. But I would be very happy if someone could answer, wheter or not the 'eq-near miss' ever presents with three doors phenomenology and/or a blip? 

Thanks
George S, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 1:13 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 1:13 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 2557 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Waiting for Sam to create a different account to reply ...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 4:04 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 3:19 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6748 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Yeah. In the meantime, I asked this very question a while back and never got a reply, so if anyone cares to answer it, it would actually be helpful, regardless. 

I'm curious because a short time before the event that I have been counting as stream entry, I had a very clear experience that fits exactly with the description of impermanence door, three rapid images flashing by (sacred geometry), but I never noticed a blip at that time. And similarly, around the time for what may have been second path, shortly before it (I may be confusing the order of things here), I had a very clear presentation of the no self door with suffering as second aspect, also with a very clear image but without noticing a blip. There have been other events with clear blips around both those events, so it doesn't really matter as such, but it has made me curious as to whether there can be door moments that "fail" and never lead to an actual fruition. 
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:24 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:14 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 1470 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
RE: three door phenomenology
MCTB
I had to go through them hundreds of times with an eye to exactly how they presented before I could write a chapter such as this one.Plenty of people have failed to notice the previous sentence and thought that they would likely have similarly clear experiences. When I say that I had to go through them hundreds of times to compile this list, with only a small fraction of those yielding the nuggets of dharma goodness that I serve up below, I mean it. Do not expect that you will necessarily be able to notice all of these with this degree of clarity any time soon or perhaps ever.
link -
31 the three doors

So it is not very  likely that your question about a near miss will be answered.
Look to the review of the POI stages as some evidence of SE. Do they unfold differently now?
good luck,
​​​​​​​~D
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:18 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 1831 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
IAs far as near miss three doors goes... A&P Events are very three-doors-like and it is possible to drop from EQ to A&P if there isn't a really refined balance between attention and awareness in EQ. If a too much investigative intensity is used in EQ, then the meditator is trying to "penetrate the object" again, which can lead to an A&P Event. Then brown-outs in Dissolution can get interpreted as "more cessations" and the next dark night phase can be interpreted as "Review" or the arrival of the next path. Etc. etc. 

(I had this happen to me on a retreat where I was pushing way too hard and I just went round and round the nanas, from A&P to EQ, with the A&P getting more profound... and it was tempting to over-estimate that as evidence of going through multiple paths or being solidly in the many-cycles of Third path... but I saw that my body and mind was getting frazzled --- which is a counter-indication of good and balanced practice --- and so finally and wisely stopped that heavy-handed approach.)

This is all fairly well-described in MCTB, but often we have a bit of a cognative bias toward interpreting things in the "best" possible way and we can over-estimate where we are. This is where having meditation friends and teachers can be helpful. Because some of the stuff that happens in meditation is so wild and profound, it is very easy to develop a self-serving attitude like "no one else has had as profound an experience, therefore I only trust myself to judge..." but this can be a very clever way of avoiding data that could contradict our hypothesis. 

But it's important to keep the most important diagnostic approach in mind and it's very simple:

* If some experience seems like something, but doesn't have the effects like should after a year and a day, then it probably isn't what it seemed like regardless of how it seemed.

* Conversely, if some experience doesn't seem like something, but after a year and a day it has the effect of something, then it probably is that something even if it wasn't exactly as it "should" have been.

And even if you experenced something, there is still plenty of work to do, so no big deal. Regardless of where anyone is on the map, the important thing is continuing to find the right modality of practice (and external guidance) to chip away at the remaining greed, aversion, and indifference. It really doesn't matter where you are on the map, what matters is wisely training the mind to be resilient and fully encounter life without greed, aversion, or indifference and to have mature psychological defense mechanisms when life gets overwhelming at times, which it enevitablly will be sometimes. Sometimes I think that mapping defense mechanims of a practioner (Defence mechanism - Wikipedia) might be an even better way to assess progress. emoticon

Anyway, the three doors near miss thing is likely the movement from EQ to A&P and an A&P Event which mimics the Three Doors. But good practice is more important than good mapping.

Hope this helps in some way.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:45 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:45 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 1831 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
In addition to the three doors section that Dreamwalker posted, it's also good to read A&P: 4. The Arising and Passing Away – MCTB.org
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 8:04 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 7:45 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6748 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Okay, so I guess the answer is basically that nobody really knows the technical details well enough to be certain about lots of the events but that for path moment assessment the proof is in the pudding.

In my case it doesn't really matter. It's just an intellectual curiosity that has little to do with progress. In retrospect it seems like some changes that I have seen as happening before stream entry might have already been the onset of review, such as sudden access to much more jhana than before. On the other hand, the sudden change to how much dukkha I experienced came at the point that I count as stream entry, and that's definitely more important than the "special effects". I would say that the changes from the later point in time included a clear change in needs for and occurrances of defense mechanisms (although there is of course still room for improvement!)

Regardless of how one classifies stuff, I'd say that cleaning up reactive patterns with defense mechanisms is central. I can live with not knowing the intellectual stuff.

This is also why I initially did the assessment that I did. I didn't count the first event because I assessed that I was still as messed up as before. With the later event that had a clear blip and a clear moment of reality arising anew (but a less clear door moment), I was suddenly much less messed up (a large portion of that has remained, but definitely not all of it). After that I had events with both clear door moments and clear blips, for the same event, and a review phase that was like a smorgasboard of all the best insight moments coming together and developing in richness and complexity, and yet another level of access to jhana. And with all that luxury of cool effects, the strongest impact was the falling away of hang-ups that I could never have imagined falling away like that, and that stuff wasn't fireworksy at all. 
Pontus Andersson, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 1:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 1:32 PM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 8/13/22 Recent Posts
Thank you, will keep practicing and see 
George S, modified 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 4:26 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 4:26 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 2557 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Chris, Linda,

Are you aware that Sam probably created this thread? The first version, which was deleted, had an immediate reply from a new user called “Sam W”. Also, Sam created a post on his website to discuss this thread:

https://mybodhisattva.com/2022/08/14/question-from-the-dharma-overground/?amp=1

I might be wrong, but it looks like he is still using fake DhO accounts to create spurious “teacher interactions”.

Linda, he has also made a strange post about you and “Monica” …

https://mybodhisattva.com/2022/08/15/shadow-angels-create-collages/?amp=1
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 6:20 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 6:20 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6748 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
People's blogs tend to be very subjective. I wouldn't worry about that. 

It is my collage, allright. It's a mandala of the five elements in Tibetan Buddhism. I made it for Michael Taft's RtS class and I have shared it online in several places. One of the places was as a reply to a Monica, who did indead thank Sam for some advice, in a discord channel for sharing stuff like that. No big deal. As far as I know, she has never posted on DhO. It's a small world but not that small. 

Projecting stuff onto people is a human thing. I usually don't share my projections publicly if I can help it, because I realize that it would get awkward. Not everyone has the same discernment, and so sometimes things do get awkward. I bet there have been times when you too, George S, have made assumptions about some woman trying to catch your intention when she really wasn't.

We are friends, though, and part of the same discord group. I don't usually hold grudges for long, especially not when someone does listen. At the same time, I'm not letting him back in here, because he broke rules repeatedly, and that's not acceptable behavior here. I'm with Chris all the way there. 

The show is over. 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 8:19 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 8:19 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 4544 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
George, yes, we are fully aware of the manipulations and permutations being perpetrated on DhO.

​​​​​​​Thanks for being vigilant.

- Chris
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 8:28 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/17/22 10:55 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 4544 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I'm reopening this thread. All is well here. Pontus, truly a new-ish member of DhO can now have the conversation he wanted to have.

​​​​​​​Thanks for your patience, Pontus.

- Chris
DhO Moderator
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 8:44 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 8:44 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 4544 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Lifting this thread to the top of the recent discussions list.

​​​​​​​
Pontus Andersson, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 9:07 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 9:07 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 8/13/22 Recent Posts
Thanks a lot Chris, I appreciate your and Lindas work, level headed and polite! 
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 9:44 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 9:44 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 163 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
The phenomenological descriptions of the Progress of Insight as available today come from a very very specific style of practice.
1. 1 month to 3 month retreat
2. 8 to 10 hours of meditation daily
3. The rise and fall of the abdomen used as a grounding object
4. Distractions to be intially labeled, then labeling to be let go of and then distractions to be noted
5. Noting to stop and the mind to start doing upasana or 'tracking' - attention lands on the distraction ... simply stick to the object just 'knowing' it

The further one moves away from this model in terms of time - the less the phenomenology within the map applies
The further one moves away from the technique of grounding awareness in change and directing it towards change - the less the sequence within the map applies

But the 'knowledges' ... they remain the same, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with the phenomenology.

You can try the following:

1. Design a simple but clearly defined attentional exercise and memorize it - listen to precisely 2 sounds, listen to precisely 2 verbal thoughts, view precisely 2 visual thoughts, and then cycle between them
2. Draw up your entire mental ability to wish something and deeply deeply wish that may I attain to the fruition of the path gone by and may it last for 30 seconds, 1 minute, 1.5 minutes (increase the timing each time) ... take your time making and holding this wish, and let go of that wish completely
3. Execute your attentional exercise from memory - once you get a rhythm going - start balancing relaxation and energy, generate some samprajanya or Metacognitive Introspective Awareness. Take a lot of interest in the object as well as the movements of attention - this is playful and curious - you should not want anything from this exercise - No PoI, No Anuloma, No Gotrabhu, No Marga, No phal ... nothing!

If the mind takes nibbana as an object and you experience the relief, again, then you will have an answer to the question. And you will not need any phenomenological description, you will 'know' beyond the shadow of any doubt. This 'beyond the shadow of any doubt' ... is the hallmark of Stream Entry. or Sakrdagami, or Anagami, or Arhat
Pontus Andersson, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 3:02 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 9:58 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 8/13/22 Recent Posts
Hey Shargrol!

I was actually reading your various posts about EQ just before this particular session, and I found them really helpful. 

IAs far as near miss three doors goes... A&P Events are very three-doors-like and it is possible to drop from EQ to A&P if there isn't a really refined balance between attention and awareness in EQ. If a too much investigative intensity is used in EQ, then the meditator is trying to "penetrate the object" again, which can lead to an A&P Event. Then brown-outs in Dissolution can get interpreted as "more cessations" and the next dark night phase can be interpreted as "Review" or the arrival of the next path. Etc. etc.
I've never noticed AnP events having three doors like phenomenology before. That's a good point, I'll try to be aware of that in the future. 

This is all fairly well-described in MCTB, but often we have a bit of a cognative bias toward interpreting things in the "best" possible way and we can over-estimate where we are. This is where having meditation friends and teachers can be helpful. Because some of the stuff that happens in meditation is so wild and profound, it is very easy to develop a self-serving attitude like "no one else has had as profound an experience, therefore I only trust myself to judge..." but this can be a very clever way of avoiding data that could contradict our hypothesis. 
I agree with the gist of what you're saying here. Although, I would say it's sort of funny how, in general, practitioners have a tendency to over-assess where they're at, but people online have a tendency to under-assess others. It's an understandable counterbalance to the vast amount of practitioners who are over-assessing, and it's probably the best approach, to have a healthy scepticism towards things we read online. But in worst case scenarios it can still lead to an overly sceptical assessment of others. I see this in myself by the way, whenever I read someone's practice log, or post about attaining something, I always assume 'Nah, they probably just hit the AnP a couple of times'. (If I'm on a bad mood I'll just think 'this scrub have no idea what they're doing!' lol). I'm not being critical to this sceptical attitude, since I do believe it's most likely for the best of the community, it's just a funny dynamic. 

I should also say, since the session I mentioned originally, the afterglow has subdued. I've unfortunately not been meditating as much as I would've liked the last week, most likely slid back, had to go through some dark nighty frustration and back to low EQ again. Since I haven't noticed any substantial 'upgrade' in concentration ability, no automatic cycling, and haven't been able to repeat the event in question, my assessment is that it in fact wasn't a fruition, but just some form of mimic. I do feel like I've been, and still am, quite close though. Luckily I have at least a week and some change to keep practicing several hours a day, so let's see how it all plays out. 

But it's important to keep the most important diagnostic approach in mind and it's very simple:

* If some experience seems like something, but doesn't have the effects like should after a year and a day, then it probably isn't what it seemed like regardless of how it seemed.

* Conversely, if some experience doesn't seem like something, but after a year and a day it has the effect of something, then it probably is that something even if it wasn't exactly as it "should" have been.
This is a good baseline! After all we want the effects of meditation and not the badge and silly hats that come with an attainment. (... I mean, I'll take a silly hat if i HAVE to... I like silly hats.) 

And even if you experenced something, there is still plenty of work to do, so no big deal. Regardless of where anyone is on the map, the important thing is continuing to find the right modality of practice (and external guidance) to chip away at the remaining greed, aversion, and indifference. It really doesn't matter where you are on the map, what matters is wisely training the mind to be resilient and fully encounter life without greed, aversion, or indifference and to have mature psychological defense mechanisms when life gets overwhelming at times, which it enevitablly will be sometimes. Sometimes I think that mapping defense mechanims of a practioner (Defence mechanism - Wikipedia) might be an even better way to assess progress. emoticon
I will disagree a bit with you here though. I do think it matters where you're at on the map, and that being good at assessing where you're at is a valuable skill, especially for a layperson. Being able to make good, level headed assessments and not get distracted by mapping during mediation itself is of course a skill in itself. Mapping isn't without drawbacks if done unskilfully.

I would assume a monk, who have more time dedicated to practice year after year, definetly can have this more laid back mentality.

For a monk: "Was that a new path?"
     No -> keep practicing.
     Yes -> "Was it fourth path?" No -> keep practicing.
                                                   Yes -> What's done is done and I can focus on other aspects of practice. 

For a layman: "Was that a new path?"
     No -> Can I prioritize practice over other ordinary things, to get over the hump, or do other aspects of life need more of my time?
                                                   Yes, I can prioritize practice -> keep practicing.
                                                   No, I lack the time, even though I will slide back -> better luck next time. 
     Yes, that was path -> "Are there other parts of ordinary life that need my attention?"
                                                   No -> keep practicing.
                                                   Yes -> Pay attention to ordinary life, with the luxury of knowing that you will not slide back.
 
Anyway, the three doors near miss thing is likely the movement from EQ to A&P and an A&P Event which mimics the Three Doors. But good practice is more important than good mapping.
Yeah, whatever it was, my assessment is that it wasn't fruition. The balance of effort and not effort in EQ is hard huh, I will keep on trying though, and just revel in EQ for a bit. 

Hope this helps in some way.
It helped a lot! Thanks for sharing your thoughts Shargrol. I'll read some more of your EQ posts, they're a gem! 
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Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 10:24 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 10:24 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 1581 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
 Nice algorithm Pontus emoticon
Now, someone should code it and we deploy it on our heads emoticon
 
Pontus Andersson, modified 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 10:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/19/22 10:42 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 6 Join Date: 8/13/22 Recent Posts
Hahah, thanks! 

If any one needs me, I'll be on my couch waiting for my job offer from Google. 
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 11:10 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 11:10 AM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 81 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
So basically your saying.   Mahasi Sayadow style  vipassana is effective in the modern day.  8 to 10 hours daily?
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 12:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/20/22 12:12 PM

RE: Near miss with three door phenomenology or streamentry?

Posts: 163 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
The Mahasi style of practice is very effective. Even in much shorter time commitments it can be very effective.

Only thing is, its rapidly going to take the yogi to the dukkha nanas. And it doesnt build the broad skillset needed to learn from the dukkha and move on.

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