I have spent a lot of time wondering what happens at the end of a cycle of the progress of insight. The Burmese Theravadins seem to think it's nibbana or "the mind taking nibbana as an object". Bhante V appears not to think so (though I don't recall what he thinks it is). Here is something Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:



Is this what the Burmese are referring to as nibbana / cessation? As NS? If not, what state it is? Any thoughts?

Also, any thoughts on what that little blip of no apparent experience might be in other traditions? Something? Nothing?

[1]no; [2]no; [3]asanni-bhava, like ajaan fuang says. i can't cite any sources off-hand, but read more of (the translations of) the extra-canonical pali material and you're bound to come across further references to it (and to the 'realm of the unconscious gods' which was surely extrapolated therefrom).

as far as i was ever able to tell, it's no different from nevasannanasanna (neither-perception-nor-non-perception), and the distinction is semantic, perhaps only applicable to those engaged in building or studying a system of meditation-derived phenomenology or cosmology (such as the scholars/scholar-practitioners who tasked themselves with arranging and organising the consensual understanding of the buddha's teachings). i wouldn't be surprised if the use of the label 'asanni-bhava' had originated in either the context of a miscommunication among fellow practitioners or as a teaching device of some sort (such as in the above story that thanissaro tells).



'bhavanga' is a common enough term to follow up on.

tarin

I find this unlikely with respect to this particular case, as 1) Thanissaro is familiar with neither-perception-nor-nonperception, 2) Thanissaro has experienced a state which he says Ajaan Fuang called "asanni-bhava", 3) Thanissaro repeats without comment Ajaan Fuang's claim that it is not right concentration, 4) Thanissaro does not think neither-perception-nor-nonperception is not right concentration (as far as I know, as it is endorsed by the canon), 5) if 1,2,4 are true, 3 would be fairly disingenuous. Given that, I find it more likely that Thanissaro is familiar with two distinct states that may be similar in description: neither-perception-nor-nonperception, and what Ajaan Fuang called "asanni-bhava".

Do you have a reason for thinking otherwise, or am I misunderstanding your claim?



Have you gone looking for a state that would be well-described as "asanni-bhava" and yet found no likely candidate besides neither-perception-nor-nonperception?



I should clarify that I am interested in what non-Buddhist traditions may or may not think of it.

you are understanding my claim correctly, as far as i can tell. regarding your enumerated points above, i can offer no further commentary besides the observations that ajahn fuang was almost certainly referring to what in colloquial thai is called 'phawang' (adapted from the pali 'bhavanga'), that the state of 'phawang' is commonly poorly-regarded in thai forest circles, that teachers in those circles have been known to teach more from personal experience and by natural language than from and by strict accordance with the canon (and known to see some humour in this), that ajahn fuang's reason for considering the state in question 'not right concentration' was stated to be because its achiever is unable to investigate or discern the state's qualities in real-time (cf. the account of nevasannanasanna in the anupada sutta, mn 111), and that the story relates a conversation which took place years ago in a language that only one of us speaks and neither of us were there.



yes, up until a few years ago, some time after this discussion took place.


there is an common set of distinctions drawn in vedic- and brahminically-sourced traditions between the (ordinary) waking state, the dreaming state, the undreaming sleeping state, and a fourth state standing in ambiguous relationship to these others, and some context these distinctions are presented in may, i speculate, be relevant to your inquiry. good luck, construct well.

tarin

I think I've accessed what Thanissaro Bhikkhu describes here, in fact I'm pretty certain that this is the case, and it was done through working with yoga nidra.



The fourth state Tarin is talking about is called turiya (depending on which tradition you're talking about), which is something like a conscious but dreamless sleep. I've definitely experienced this on several occasions and always through one-pointed concentration (which may be why this is not right concentration?), you remain completely aware but there is absolutely no perception occurring. It doesn't seem to be the same as 8th jhana, although I couldn't say with any certainty. I was accessing this long before what I believed was stream entry so I could be miles away but the descriptions given seem very, very similar. I can't describe what happens during this but I'll have a play around and see if I can get there again to investigate it properly.

One big thing I've found, through being shoved, poked and prodded by my partner when I've gone into this 'state', for lack of a better word, is that the body appears as if in a deep sleep and can even begin to snore. Afterwards, I have absolutely no recollection of making any sound, or being touched and long periods of time could have elapsed which, subjectively, feel like minutes.

I could be very wrong but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Edit: I've been looking at some material on turiya and my understanding may be incorrect, it's possible that what I'm talking about is the stage before turiya. On the other hand, when I experienced this before I had no knowledge whatsoever of insight and had been doing intense concentration practice so it may be that I just didn't see it correctly. No idea.

I actually wrote about this community for a college paper, the author Frits Koster briefly explains away moments of cessation ("blacking out" that the DhO is so fond of) as not necessarily being nibbana. I don't have the book with me right now but I might post it later.

Here is some further clarification I ran into:

I have nothing to add except to agree with Tarin's points

Daniel

Daniel, you believe that

1) Fruition (at the apex of the progress of insight) is bhavanga, not nibbana, and
2) asanni-bhava (which Thanissaro further describes as concentration based on aversion) is jhana 8

?

Fruition is fruition
Nibbana has two meanings depending on context, one of which is equivalent to fruition
8th jhana is the 8th jhana and is its own thing
There are states of vague unconsciousness: differentiating those is rather pointless, and there is no good basis for compsrison, like comparing sleep to something like it, not very helpful
NS stands out among all these based on many specifics of its setup, attainment requirements, entrance, exit, and afterglow

Sorting these out is not easy for many

But be assured they each have distinct marks and with practice one can know these very well

So, which point or points of Tarin's are you agreeing with?