Clock kasina & enjoying pleasure

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Tarver , modified 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 1:00 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 8:48 AM

Clock kasina & enjoying pleasure

Posts: 262 Join Date: 2/3/10 Recent Posts
I heard about this practice yesterday, and I am curious if anyone has tried it: use the second-hand of a clock as a concentration object (kasina).

One of the difficulties I have been having in developing jhana has been identifying specific-enough pleasure, joy, happiness, rapture, or whatever you want to call it (piti, sukha), to focus in on, to create that self-sustaining positive feedback loop. I have not tried the clock kasina yet but I predict that I will enjoy staying with the object successfully over a period of time that is quite literally in-my-face, and that that enjoyment (the measurable, visible, accumulating success) will be self-reinforcing.
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 3:56 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 11:51 AM

RE: Clock kasina

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
 Tarver :
...and I am curious if anyone has tried it: use the second-hand of a clock as a concentration object (kasina).

Way back when, when I was endeavoring to increase mental concentration abilities, I came across a book entitled Concentration, A Guide to Mental Mastery by Mouni Sadhu. In it he explores several methods for increasing one's concentration ability. One of them involves watching the second hand on a clock. I tried it and was very successful in being able to see graphically how long I could remain concentrated on the second hand without interruption or unnoticed interruption.

When I say graphically, I'm referring to your ability to watch not only the second hand, but to also be aware of the minute hand as it counts up the minutes you've been able to remain in concentration on the second hand. As long as you are able to remain focused for two to five minutes on an object, you have enough concentration (some call it "access concentation," however I do not, just plain concentration) to pursue the kind of jhana experience you described below. You also have enough concentration to pursue insight meditation on the Dhamma (although you may want to wait until you are able to maintain that level with the same consistency as is mentioned in the second jhana, whereby you have developed effortless concentration on the object).

Please be aware, though, that the term "jhana" is simply defined: "The word jhāna is based on the Sanskrit word dhyana that contains the root dhi meaning to 'reflect, conceive and ponder over'. Surprisingly, this definition appears closer to the English word 'meditation' than the traditional idea of 'absorption'."

And that: "The Sanskrit word dhyana, derived from the verbal root dhyai ('to contemplate, meditate, think'), is the most common designation both for the meditative state of consciousness and the yogic techniques by which it is induced. The Vedanta tradition also employs the terms nididhyasana, which stems from the same verbal root, upasana (literally 'dwelling upon'), and bhavana (literally 'cultivating')."

So, what I mean to point out here is that the word "jhana" as it is talked about in the discourses can have a very wide range of meaning over and above the stock descriptions of the first four jhanas that we read about in the suttas. That stock description is just one way that one can experience one very focused kind of jhana. However, it isn't the only kind of jhana that one can experience. I say this based on years of direct experience and experimentation with this concept. So, just keep that in mind as you pursue what you call "jhana."

Therefore, when you are able to enter a state of concentration wherein you are able to "reflect, conceive and ponder over" or "contemplate, meditate and think about" phenomena with clarity of discernment (meaning sampajanna, or "clear comprehension"), you are in jhana! It doesn't matter whether you got there according to the stock description in the discourses or not. What matters is that you are THERE! Period. And once you arrive there, realization of the truth of the Dhamma can take place because your mind is at ease and focused (concentrated) clearly on whatever object you are observing. In other words, you can see the object clearly and objectively, without any prejudice or bias clouding the view.

 Tarver :

One of the difficulties I have been having in developing jhana has been identifying specific-enough pleasure, joy, happiness, rapture, or whatever you want to call it (piti, sukha), to focus in on, to create that self-sustaining positive feedback loop. I have not tried the clock kasina yet but I predict that I will enjoy staying with the object successfully over a period of time that is quite literally in-my-face, and that that enjoyment (the measurable, visible, accumulating success) will be self-reinforcing.

Yes, that is a common difficulty when first beginning a practice in pursuit of jhana. I also experienced this same difficulty. It just takes time for these features to become visible enough (able to discern them more clearly) before you are able to identify them. Don't be too concerned with your lack of ability to do this at the moment. Just focus on understanding what is meant by being able to enter this state. The biggest hint I had about what this meant from an experiential standpoint was when I read and understood the reference made in the Mahasaccaka Sutta (MN 36) wherein Gotama describes an experience he had as a child under a rose-apple tree watching his father in the field at a festival.

MN 36:
31. "I considered: 'I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.[389] Could that be the path to enlightenment?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to enlightenment.'
32. "I thought: 'Why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states?' I thought: 'I am not afraid of that pleasure since it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states.'[390]

Footnotes
389. MA: During the Bodhisatta's boyhood as a prince, on one occasion his father led a ceremonial ploughing at a traditional festival of the Sakyans. The prince was brought to the festival and a place was prepared for him under a rose-apple tree. When his attendants left him to watch the ploughing ceremony, the prince, finding himself all alone, spontaneously sat up in the meditation posture and attained the first jhana through mindfulness of breathing.

390. This passage marks a change in the Bodhisatta's evaluation of pleasure; now it is no longer regarded as something to be feared and banished by the practice of austerities, but, when born of seclusion and detachment, is seen as a valuable accompaniment of the higher stages along the path to enlightenment. See MN 139.9 on the twofold division of pleasure.

Upon reading this I harkened back to experiences I had had as a child and realized that I, too, had been able to enter that same state. Some people call it "a reverie." It was a very pleasant experience, comparable to experiencing an alpha mental state. Alpha states are sometimes described as having a kind of tingling sensation in the head, which I used to experience all the time as a child. Once I had that reference point, I felt secure in my ability to understand this state. That was the biggest hint I had in endeavoring to figure out what the stock references to jhana meant that I was reading in the discourses.
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Tarver , modified 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 1:04 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/4/12 1:04 PM

RE: Clock kasina

Posts: 262 Join Date: 2/3/10 Recent Posts
Thanks, Ian, for the encouraging and useful response. I am enjoying reflecting upon it. emoticon

I have also changed the name of the thread to better reflect this aspect of it.
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Luke Avedon, modified 11 Years ago at 7/3/12 9:48 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/3/12 9:48 AM

RE: Clock kasina

Posts: 14 Join Date: 6/26/11 Recent Posts
Ian,

When you were doing the clock kasina were you practicing no thought or just staying with the concentration object? I interpreted Mouni Sidhu's directions in the book Concentration to be to see how far you can follow the second hand without any thoughts arising at all....total blank mind. I have tried this and found it to be ridiculously hard. The most I've gotten is 15 seconds and that is after two hours of Shamata practice.

I believe Mr. Sidhu says anyone who can't do 20 seconds is pretty hopeless. I recall to complete his first series of training you have to be able to follow the second hand without thought for 5 minutes, then follow the second hand with your only thought being "Om" for five minutes. AND you have to be able to do this whenever you like i.e. without warm-up. I can't even begin to imagine that being possible. And that is only the first exercise!

Did you find it worked? Have you gotten to that level?

I found doing a little with the clock strengthens my concentration practice, but too much just leads to a lot of tension. Any thoughts on the topic are greatly appreciated.

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