fivebells .:
The differences seem superficial to me, but it could be my ignorance. What do you see as the important differences between the two?
"The state of Dzogchen and the state of Mahāmudra are not two different states. They are the same thing.
The path of Dzogchen and the path of Mahāmudra are completely different.
The superior path is whichever one you will actually practice.
My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.
N"
"However things may have been prior to the 11th century, since then tögal is the main thrust of Dzogchen practice. And since this is so, the way the basis is described is different, necessarily so. And so I still do not agree that similarity in terminology indicates similarity in intention.
N"
"Generally speaking it works like this -- if you read books by Kagyus, Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are the same. If you read books by Nyingmapas, they are different, and Kagyu Mahāmudra is just Dzogchen sems sde in drag. Sakyapas happily admit Dzogchen and Mahāmudra are different (where they are not shunning it as a Hashang deviation) and charitable Gelugpas like HHDL try to convince everyone that the fundamental mind of clear light and Dzogchen are the same.
Me, I stick with what ChNN says about the issue (i.e. Dzogchen and Mahāmudra are completely different, with different paths and so on).
N"
"Kagyu Mahamudra is gradual and experiential, so some people think it is a more suitable instruction for acquainting people with the nature of the mind.
Dzogchen introduction is also experiential, but it really depends on the student's acumen to get it since it is not as gradual and step by step."
~ Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm
In short:
While the 'goal' may be said to be similar, there are clear and obvious differences in the path. Dzogchen practices Thogal, Mahamaudra doesn't.
Mahamudra introduces nature of mind more systematically.
There are other differences... but... can't remember for now.
Thrangu Rinpoche:
"I think that it is of far greater importance than the experience of dramatic instantaneous pointing out that people be taught mahamudra as a full system of instruction that they can implement on their own gradually through diligent application using either one of the three texts by the Ninth Gyalwang Karmapa—The Ocean of Definitive Meaning, Dispelling the Darkness of Ignorance, or Pointing Out the Dharmakaya— or one of the texts by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal—either Moonbeams of Mahamudra or The Clarification of the Natural State.
In short, I think it is of far more importance that people receive this kind of complete and systematic instruction so that they can gradually develop experience on their own, than that some kind of dramatic pointing-out procedure be done. Of course, it is possible to give dramatic pointing-out instruction, and when you do so, some people do recognize their mind’s nature. But, if I may say so, I question the stability and, therefore, ultimately the value of that. It certainly is a dramatic experience for those people who achieve it, but I see no evidence of their kleshas diminishing as a result. And furthermore, they then carry away with them the arrogance of the thought, “I have seen my mind’s nature.” I think it is of far greater importance actually to practice meditation slowly and surely and make all possible use of the resources which this book in particular gives you. It is after all a big book and contains within it much instruction, much guidance, and a lot of questions that can help you to question and therefore refine your own experience."
(Ocean of Definitive Meaning, p. 127-128)
