We had a fun time making jokes in https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/37891254

A K D also raised a good question, which I might paraphrase as "Yeah, but seriously...."

A K D was happy to let it go, but I really felt it was a good point, and worth exploring. The thread might give people the idea that the consensus here is that awakening makes no difference. That has certainly not been my experience, and I don't think it is what most of us think. 

Of course, Papa's "When I awaken, ..." conversation-starter was talking about what people expect to happen in the future, and I think that is a very good conversation to have, but I am interested in asking about how things have changed for people who find that spiritual developments have made a lasting change. 

I am sticking to the term "awakened" because I think it can be very broad. I'm using it to mean any major transition, and probably the most recent one for you. That is, I'm not asking only about one specific path attainment, or even any path attainment, just a change that some people might refer to as awakening. 

For me, two big things have changed.

The first is the lack of suffering in the sense of being trapped in or bound to afflictive mind states. I am specifically talking about things like fear, worry, obsession, shame, resentment, aversion, and anger, which, in the past, could take hold of me, against my will, as it were. I can sometimes see that knot starting to form, but the binding process no longer completes. There is no more wishing that I did not feel how I do, or trying to escape a thought or emotion, and no more suffering without resistance either, so in this sense, no suffering. For example, I just now got back from the hospital where I had a minor procedure and, just before I left, I had the sense that I was forgetting something. And I realized, "I haven't worried, maybe I should worry." And then I remembered, what could there be to worry about, it doesn't work that way anymore. 

The second is the beauty of watching things unfold and be. This is sometimes in the form of non-dual awareness, sometimes in seated meditation, sometimes just seeing things as they appear now. I am going to include jhana in this, as that is something that only became available at a certain point. 

For me, the first is constant, and has been unchanging for the past 18 months or so, while the second is more a matter of states, which come and go on their own schedule, without consulting me as all :-) To be honest, I'm interested in exploring more of the second. These states can take a certain amount of energy, but my health has been improving in the past few months, so I think I would like more beauty. Why not?

What about other people? What has changed?

 

there were 3 main changes...

the first is to see vibrations? sometimes they can be "full" vibrations. i just came home from a walk in the dark. it's 3 am and on my walk i could watch the trees flicker (disappearing and re-appearing). those vibrations have different "tones". and they're all different. sometimes they're "stuck" energy (concentration state) like a single part of experience flickering (e.g. nirodha samapatti but with a single object)... the chair right here, it's got weird vibrations, it's a dark chair. it's got lots of lightness, brightness, bright vibrations. that means it's close to cessation.

oh, 4 main changes (this is the 4th i just came up with)
weird fractal experience... a sub-change for this is that my visual field has increased. the computer screen feels much wider, for example. but vision feels also much higher, so i can see more at the top and bottom, which can be really obvious sometimes. but the breadth has widened multiple times. anyway, the fractal experience. sometimes my attention is focused more on the smaller details and sometimes it goes out further. investigation seems to work that way also. it's really interesting that way. layers are really nice.

oh, 5 main changes (this is the 5th)
energy... atm i'm going through some energetic changes. i'm starting to feel more and more relaxed in baseline and things are starting to feel just more natural and at ease, kind of smooth. alright, and a 6th change: i had this weird experience recently that my experience-density per time has increased a lot. i was walking a path and it felt like it would never end (not in a negative way, just the experience felt insanely rich... everything just stimulating, but not in a "too much" way, just life is insanely rich and full of experience) to the energetic changes - metabolism is also adjusting somewhat, in terms of sweating/body-heat. strange neurocognitive reorganization to be in a default state of relaxation rather than concentration.

the 2nd change is the end of escape. at first, i was simply insensitive to pain and effort and so my life felt effortless, because i was insensitive to it... later it changed and the escape ended, so i can be with sorrow and as sorrow or with anger as anger, without concentrating away from it or whatever typical reaction might be.

the 3rd change, which is going on right now, is the transition from concentrating to observing... you could say, from doing to being, and to be is to do. and i think there is beauty in that. lol.

alright, a 7th change. i became extremely sensitive to how my "self" affects other people. whether you call it "psychic powers" or "synchronization" or whatever, there's lots of interesting "coincidences"... even from a purely "realistic" point of view. if you are angry and sensitive to other people right now, because you might be in some "dark night territory stuff", you might see other people as being rude somehow. it's about seeing how theory and practice work together, because they are not separate from each other.

perhaps another change, 8th change - i spent pretty much my whole life in solitude with autistic social skills and social anxiety. even having people in visual field or hearing people can bring up strong fear. it took quite a bit more than finishing "2nd path" to be able to go outside regularly, just for walks. i even managed to talk to people, i gained a sense of initiative, i recovered my dead feelings and went beyond intellectual brain usage.

perhaps 9th change - is that i can notice how weird time experiences can feel. it's super weird to remember a path i walked, and then i see that i'm sitting in my room right now and somehow all this "long experience" feels like nothing. lol.

and 10th, for the 10 precepts... i also became much better at chess, despite studying much less (not at all, other than simply playing it). living becomes learning.

My experience was what Shinzen Young describes as gradual, or Jack Kornfield calls the gateless gate. I've had many sudden experiences (anatta, noself, fruition, kensho) like what people say for them was awakening but those experiences didn't really change anything for me, I didn't consider that awakening, to me they just seemed like altered brain states caused by a lot of meditation.

What happened with me was that at some point I realized that something is different, I don't get annoyed by things that used to annoy me, My sense of self importance is lessened. I have more compassion for people, I see things from their point of view as if they aren't separate/different from me. I don't like to do things that hurt other people because I have more empathy and feel their pain.

It isn't just the calming effects of meditation, it doesn't depend on how much meditation do. As far I can tell it is a permanent change.

For me the practice that is most effective is relaxing meditation as preparation for vipassana, and then noticing, in meditation and daily life, all the activity of the mind but in particular noticing how suffering arises and fades and how the ego is involved in suffering. I am influenced by the anapanasati sutta which cultivates both samatha and vipassana in the same meditation session, and the sattipathana sutta which gives instructions on how to live mindfully. My practice and experience most closely resembles this:

https://inquiringmind.com/article/2701_w_kornfield-enlightenments/

I've only reached 1st path so far, but there are some major changes. The most tangible one is reduced fatique. I used to consistently get tired around 2pm and regularly took naps around then, but now I just don't. There's also a general sense of ease and spaciousness that persists even in suboptimal mental states. It actually gets a bit stronger then, like there's a 'space' around any hazy or unpleasent states preventing them from coloring my whole experience.
Very interested in what 2nd path will bring.

My curiosity about how experience is pieced together has been resolved, resulting in a dramatic reduction of the fear of the roller coaster ride that is human existence. The ride remains. The fear of the unknown disaster that seems to lurk around every corner is gone. What's left is a deep appreciation for the mystery, the chaos, and the beauty of it all.

When I awaken, ... then I will tell you what has changed! 

I think I'm much more creative and much better able to act upon and realize my creativity because I'm not so consumed by suffering. 

How are your hemorrhoids, mate? 

Mostly good. Yours?

Since my last big, “fireworksy” A&P event, the biggest shift has been a sense of not being so dominated by everything. Before that, I could only dimly sense my projections — it felt like “I” was way back in a tiny corner of my head, watching myself make unwise choices and feeling horrified, but without much ability to redirect. My emotions didn’t register very much in the body.

After that A&P, things felt different. Emotions became more embodied and present, and I noticed I could “turn the volume down” on them with more ease. Family members even remarked on the changes — I stopped provoking, getting passive-aggressive, or reactive in the same ways. It was like something about that opening gave me enough space to start consciously building new habits.

That moment was the start of a larger shift — paradigm changes, life getting more orderly, practice deepening. If I had to name one thing that seems irreversibly different, it would be this newfound physiological attunement to internal states, this ability to actually feel them in the body.

​​​​​​​That said, I want to be clear: I’m not claiming awakening or stream entry. There’s still a lot of work ahead, and I’m very much in the trenches of deepening practice. But that A&P did mark a turning point in how I experience myself and my life.

Tyler, 
i just got a message to deliver from the ambassador of A&Ps, here it is:

”We as the Arisings and Passings are relieved to see a wonderful example of how We may benefit a human being, here one Tyler Rowley, and not only drive them into wrong egoistical and deluded ways with hubris and psychosis inflating and blowing up their personal psychic space,  leaving them to rot in deep depressive pitch black night,  but also give them access to what is most precious in life, that is, their own raw experience. Pass our deepest gratitude to Tyler on Dharma Overground, which gratitude arose as we heard the news of his post.”

Yeah, i humbly hope i got the message right. I might personally ask, how do you evaluate what in your change was due to the experience and what was some other learning? Just curious. That might be a more general question in relation to awakening moments and maturation of humans. Sounds great anyway. 

I've always assumed the dark night is the result of seeing one's own shit without self-aggrandizing filters. First, it's eye-opening, then frightening, then depressing, then angering, and so on. I saw for real what an asshole I am, and how much selfishness drives my thoughts and deeds. The saving grace is that without the ability to see all that crap, awakening would be impossible.

Yes, I think you are right Chris. As long as I have tried to avoid some pits of myself - because they contained sharp sticks and pierced bodies, some of them half alive - as long the suffering also has continued. Some of the avoiding has been so unconscious that there for a long time wasn't even the slightest possibility of piercing the veils. Then again, the veils get pierced and torn down. Or gently pushed aside. Bit by bit the totality of a human becomes less frightening and less dramatic. But I'm expecting that there will come unexpected turns - what ever they may be - in the travel! Have a safe and joyful travel everyone.

 I don't think about SE or paths much for myself. No claims to anything and some intuitive part tells me that if I ever need to care that it will become obvious; it has not so far. 

I do feel like lately the biggest thing is just a pretty deep and abiding equanimity from regular practice. It feels much like something I believe I heard from Alan Watts: Like sailing instead of rowing. I had some really, really tough conversations last month (just some pretty deep and irreconcilable views between myself and a loved one) and even throughout that, there was a background equanimity which probably kept my personal life from going off the rails in a bad way. The ego still crept in to make things worse at times of course.

When I think about my path in the big scope of things, it really just comes down to not being a slave to my mapping/modelling/analytical/discursive/intellectual mind. It was the only thing I could see, it was a sword to cut other people down within my own mind (i.e. judging them as a pathetic attempt at self-soothing), and a shield to hide my insecurities around feeling like a person who was born without software for happiness and social situations. I had shut off my emotions and locked them into my body for so long that I could not see anything outside of the intellect. An imperfect process trying to make itself "perfect" (i.e. free of suffering) and almost always failing at that.

The transition out of that mode was a combination of cultivating well-being (metta, tonglen, etc.) and stillness in order to directly experience what it is like to not have the intellectual mind at the forefront of everything. This took many years though and there was never a big shift. It was just slowly but surely seeing that a well ordered and happy mind kind of just handles most, perhaps every situation better than an angry, neurotic, and judgemental mind.

Framing the angry, neurotic, and judgemental mind as being stupid was useful mental Jiu-Jitsu for me as well. I was using my insecurities around my intellect to my advantage haha. Eventually I needed to learn to accept my weird brain for what it is though.
 

Hi Kettu,

Thanks for the laugh — I really enjoyed your response.

I'll try to answer your question as best as I can. The A&P cracked something open — suddenly I could feel emotions in my body, like a volume knob appeared. But the benefits of the shift — staying calm with family, not provoking or reacting the way I used to — came from daily choices and practice. The A&P was a doorway; walking through it has been discipline and life itself.

​​​​​​​Before that event, I was in and out of psych wards every year or so with hypomania and hyper-religiosity. Wards and rehabs were like retreats, but I couldn’t hold onto changes once I got out. During the two weeks around the “big one” A&P, there was a particularly intense, conscious experience where I felt early trauma being pulled up and burned through. Painful, but I could calmly ride it out.

That crack created enough space to finally integrate patterns I’d been trying to work on for years. Therapy, CBT, and meditation tools that had been only partially useful suddenly became actionable — even exciting.

​​​​​​​Within a year, people close to me noticed — “You’re a different person.” Life stopped being dominated by projections I couldn’t see. Recovery and Dharma became stable, and I could consciously build healthier habits. That immediate, irreversible shift — seeing projections, cravings, and shadow material in real-time, embodied in the body, with the space to work with them — is what made everything else possible. I can still choose unhealthy behaviors, but the suffering is immediate and unmistakable. Cravings for alcohol rarely show up, and when they do, they’re fleeting.

As for how, I often have to rely on “Sophia,” a sort of inner guide who’s helped me navigate meditation and daily life. In practice, I sometimes feel into her, gauge responses, and adjust: driving, meditating, even typing this message trying to not sound arrogant, lol.

​​​​​​​My joke to myself is that Sophia probably got stream entry, but this dude typing to you? He had one hell of an A&P, plus some other stuff she doesn’t want me talking about. And I recognize her as a projection, but a very fun and often helpful one. She was like the cherry on the cake, and if she and I aren't on speaking terms, life blows up in my face and sends me back to dharma and practice. She's like where I can feel heart and mind working together. 

I think that this perspective helps me remember that I've been stumbling around like a dopy (but friendly!) fool for years, even after that A&P, and I'm a begginner, a learner. If my goal is to get stream entry and it turns out it already happened, well, I doubt that's going to mess anything up. 

TL;DR - what you said is the true pith of how: 

I found I had "access to what is most precious in life, that is, their own raw experience." The fireworks were nothing in comparison to that. The fireworks were all the things that made it seem impossible to change myself, going up in sparks. Just enough out of the way to get serious, without taking myself so seriously. 

I'm very happy to say that the last time I did intake with a psychiatrist was 4 years ago, and at that point she was skeptical of my bipolar diagnosis. She got rid of my PTSD diagnosis entirely, and as for bipolar II, the official record now reads "not presenting symptoms." I'm not on meds any more, etc, have only continued to get more stable in life. 

All that took time but I can't stress it enough, the only reason it was all possible was because of what got knocked open during those 2 weeks, about 5 years ago. Access to what's going on in experience, so I can work with it. 

Thanks Tyler, good to know the messge was well received. (And now I can become the official channeler here ;-D )

Jokes aside (...phew). Your response was touching in more than one ways, and is very relatable. Best wishes to your lfie now and beyond!


Addition:

Good summary: "The A&P was a doorway; walking through it has been discipline and life itself."

Also very important waymarks on the path are these: "conscious experience where I felt early trauma being pulled up and burned through. Painful, but I could calmly ride it out." And the integration: "That crack created enough space to finally integrate patterns I’d been trying to work on for years."

Jung would say that your Sophia is the anima, your souls feminine counterpart. Men change truly when they integrate their femininity into their psyche, just like they change when they integrate their shadow and other archetypes. I don't know how that relates to Progress of Insight map - and it does not need to relate to it in any way.

Happy to hear your mental health diagnosis changed for the good.

I very much appreciate the pointers, that's helping me a lot. Thank you <3

To be completely blunt...after talking about all the good things that have come: I believe I had an 'aborted' stream entry, or aborted path/adjacent type experience.

But, that's the fun...it tells me this thing is gonna work on its own, and I just need to practice, log, build up 'dose' tolerance, and once the time is right, I'll start doing retreats when possible.

Without reliable access to fruitions, I can't claim stream entry. Plain and simple.

A bit sore! 

Papa Che Dusko, may I ask what hurts in particular, if anything? Or what did you mean?

Best wishes!

I think he was referring to the hemorrhoids lol

​​​​​​​I hope they get better soon for anyone dealing with those

What has changed? Prices of minced beef have gone up here in Denmark! 

I think there are various valid ways to measure and quantify the ‘what’ in this question. I am in the 'waking up to what is' camp these days. IMO this knowledge is a direct result of the lessening or loosening of clinging, fear, egoism. It’s these fears and false knowledges that obstruct seeing things the way they actually are. 

In my experience this is a very transformative knowledge. For me, it’s lead to a deepening and strengthening of intention and self assuredness, deepening of friendships and relationships, more perceptive, general reduction in fears and anxieties and worries, I’ve been more inspired in my creative endeavors (which is a relief, as many people report less of a desire to create, so I always wondered about that), with less of the pressure and anxiety around it. General increase in life satisfaction.

​​​​​​​There’s also a nature vs nurture aspect to this, which is to say, there’s a positive feedback loop in that knowledge gained through insight may inspire one’s choices, so that better decisions are made, leading to a better situation, which facilitates more insightful experiences, etc etc.

If there is nothing ever there, and what seemed to be there can not be verified if indeed it ever was there, then why all this fretting about anything? How can there be Dukkha at all? 

Dharma isn't about absolutes, truths, and any underlyingnature of reality that we can't perecive. It's about what arises for us as human beings - the result of our senses informing our mind, and our mind trying desperately to make senseof all those incoming sensations. That's the only something we have access to.

Hi Chris,

While I agree with some of what you say, I think you may be applying a rather narrow definition of what dharma is.  

​​​​​​​Dharma is very much about "the underlying nature of reality that we can't perceive".  It provides insights into that nature of reality.  That’s what vipassana is all about.  We come to perceive that reality more and more as we progress.

Conal

In practice ... and in this-ness offcushion as it unfolds we can observe (know, as in knowing from reflection) stuff arise-pass before there is knowing of "it". Gone! To verify it one would need to rewind but even then one is uncertain the what was rewound is the thing that actually happened. 

This is not about "absolutes" but about insights leading to dispassion about this-ness as it's doing itself so to speak. 

I can say "I am this Chris or I am this Dusko" but even that has already vanished. I can try to hold onto it. I can try to hold onto being an American or being a Serb! ... it takes effort do do that so to hold on to it ... it seems to bring strain onto this being ... ok ... no big issue, but trying to be something seem to bring about exhaustion. Also not a big deal as at any given moment there is awareness. And that brings instant relief even in a heep of shit! 

To be something requests entering into a realm and maintaining it through a trance. Trance is not necessarily an absence of awareness. A realm is not necessarily absence of awareness. An element is not necessarily an absence of awareness. 

Thinking there is nothing here or thinking there is all this here , is but thinking. Cause and Effect of sorts. How do we verify "form" or "emptiness"? 

I can say this phone and screen are form but I also can see it as empty ... none are wrong and yet both could be wrong ... dunno. My little "knowing" is always "behind" so to speak.

will not check for spelling mistakes sorry.  

If you can never perceive a thing, if it's impossible to do, then it can't be part of the dharma. Sure, there are things we fail to recognize or habitually ignore or sublimate, and we need to do some work honing our senses before we perceive them. Some of the steps in dependent origination, for example. But whatever unknown processes underlie the reality we can't perceive is out of bounds in regard to practice. Think about it for a bit.

This is a very interesting Sutta, in which the Buddha dispels a number of frequently mischaracterized notions about the nature of awakening. 

There is no Dharma beyond the senses, no awakening beyond the sense experience, and no ultimate resolution to the suffering of the body —
​​​​​​​he says it plain as day. 

Yep, there really is no dharma beyond the senses. That's better wording than my ham-handed attempts. But whatever the Buddha said, this becomes apparent in dedicated practice.

Yes, but at some point you realize the "more and more" was pointless because there is only infinity... or nothing... same thing, really. Same thing because we have and need the body to perceive anything. We can speculate for fun, but I haven't met or heard of anybody who "knows" anything beyond the senses. That said, some part of me still likes to wonder about what it all means.

Thanks Bahiya, that is an interesting sutta.  I've read it carefully and I can't see where you are getting this interpretation from.  It's a good description of advancement through the jhanas, of course, but I can't see how he is stating any limitations to the dharma and in particular what part of it says that there is "no ultimate resolution to the suffering of the body".

I think perhaps you and Chris are using the word "dharma" in a different way to what I would.  Differences of opinions such as this often come down to semantics.

Conal

I heard that sutta a long time ago, and then, when I started practicing jhana, I wanted to find it again, but I couldn't. So I really, really appreciate Bahiya posting it. Thanks, Bahiya!

That said, my take was the same as yours, Conal. I don't see where it says no Dharma beyond the senses, no awakening beyond the sense experience, and no ultimate resolution to the suffering of the body, even in an implied way, let alone plain as day. 

For separate reasons, I think that the awakening the Buddha taught is awakening to how the mind operates and doesn't provide any insight into reality outside of the mind. In contrast, I do find that there is resolution to the suffering of the body (as experienced by the mind). In fact, old age sickness and death are the prime targets of the practice, and I'm happy to say that it is effective at ending this suffering. But I don't see how the Shorter Discourse on Emptiness weighs in on any of that. 

They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. The “field of perception” (saññāgataṁ) is the scope of awareness. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness manifests in them—genuine, undistorted, pure, and supreme.

Let's zoom in:

‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

The “field of perception” (saññāgataṁ) is the scope of awareness. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present.

Let's zoom in again:

There is no Dharma beyond the senses: 
-The “field of perception” (saññāgataṁ) is the scope of awareness.

no awakening beyond the sense experience: 
-The “field of perception” (saññāgataṁ) is the scope of awareness.
-no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. [...] only this modicum of stress, [...] related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

and no ultimate resolution to the suffering of the body:
- this modicum of stress, [...] related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.

Please, for those of us sitting down the back of the class, explain what possible experience of dharma — or literally anything else — could be had beyond the sense experience. 

I don't get it.

Yeah said simply, nothing but perception of the senses, without defining, or adding ANYTHING. And since the senses are the only things we have, I guess an even simpler way to say it would be: nothing but perception. Not even awareness of perception, just perception itself. 

Me neither!

It seems like a bit of a jump to go from “this modicum of stress” to “no ultimate resolution to the suffering of the body”.  Does that not negate the four noble truths (the fourth one in particular)?

I think we can all agree that there’s nothing to perceive beyond the six senses (which include thought, of course, in the Buddhist system). This is pretty much a truism.  What about nirvana though? That’s beyond the senses.  Is it not part of the dharma too?
​​​​​​​
Conal

It feels like ye're deliberately misreading me, but I'm going to respond as though that is not the case.

The fourth noble truth is the end of suffering born of craving, not the elimination of all bodily stress. The suffering of the body means sickness, injury, death, family, work, art and so on. This is the modicum of stress the buddha is referring to, and it is, and has been commonly referred to as the suffering of having a body, the consequence of a human birth, and so on down the years, teacher to teacher, in many such similar phrases.

"There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life."

This is how the sutta describes the experience of an Arhat. 


What about nirvana though?

Nibbana is the cessation of conditioned phenomena known through the mind sense.

It isn't a place or experience beyond the senses. It's the unconditioned - the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion. You don't "go to" nirvana as something beyond sensory experience. When the Buddha described his own awakening, he didn't say he went somewhere else - he described the ending of the taints while sitting under a tree with his body and senses intact.

That there is nothing beyond the senses is not a truism — it is the highest practice and realization of the Dharma. 

If there is a modicum of stress then there is no ultimate resolution.

These statements are equivalent.

It is worth sitting with, dilligently observing, and patiently investigating one's desire for ultimate resolution — I have found persistent exploration of this particular desire to be immensely revealing. 

"The seeking obscures the sought," as our good friend Chris so wisely put it. 

Do you mean to say something like true nirvana should include the ability to heal all sickness or ailments in the physical body? To me it’s not about the ailments that befall the impermanent body but how one reacts to that. Plenty of “sages” died of physical ailments, many that should have been, by all accounts, very painful. That doesn’t mean they suffered. Of course we’ve all heard about healing miracles, etc etc, and maybe they’re true. Maybe some people do gain this ability, but that at best ends up in my weird “powers” basket, and if ultimate enlightenment means THAT, I’d assume there would be a lot more public miracles being performed. 

Hi Bahiya,

No, I wasn't deliberately misunderstanding you.  Thanks for your patience in sticking with it!

It seems that my misunderstanding is again down to definitions of words.  I tend to think of suffering as being the second arrow.  In which case, "suffering of the body" doesn't actually make much sense because the second arrow has to do with the the mental component.  I agree that there is no resolution to this bodily stress.

Best regards,

Conal

Yes, I agree. I think it is best not to equate physical ailments with suffering.  They would only suffer if they have aversion to the pain.

Best regards,

Conal

Exactly. 

How do you translate dukkha?

Because most of us translate it as suffering. 

The Buddha did not say, an Arhat does not suffer because they do not have aversion to pain. 

He said, a modicum of suffering remains. 

When the Buddha describes his own back pain after awakening, he uses dukkha. When describing the arahant's experience in this sutta — 'this modicum of stress, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life' — that's dukkha.

You're trying to redefine dukkha as only the mental component to preserve the idea that awakening eliminates all suffering. But the Pali is clear. Physical pain is dukkha. Aging is dukkha. Sickness is dukkha. Death is dukkha. These don't become dukkha only if you have aversion to them — they ARE dukkha.

The First Noble Truth lists old age, sickness, and death as dukkha, not 'things that become dukkha if you have aversion to them.'

​​​​​​​The peace of awakening isn't that all dukkha ceases. It's that the dukkha born of craving ceases, while the dukkha inherent to embodied existence remains. The sutta states this plainly. Why resist what the Buddha actually taught?

I do not believe we are having a semantic discussion, there is really no reason to frame it as such. 

Even without aversion, unpleasantness remains — the Buddha did not teach there was an end to unpleasantness.

"My back is sore, I’ll stretch it."

There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that related to the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.

Some of this stuff that is dependent on the body and conditioned by life is quite unpleasant. If the Buddha had meant that this particularly nasty brand of suffering could end he would have explicitly stated it, instead, quite interestingly, he stated the opposite: that while the suffering born of craving can end, the suffering of having been born in a human body, and the complication that accompanies it, does not end. 

He is very explicity about this, and the reason I am so keen to state this point, is because: recognizing this, along with recognizing the primacy of the sense experience, is the dharma. 

There is suffering, unavoidable suffering — this is the first noble truth. 

Love meeting impermanence hurts. 

 Thanks all for this very helpful conversation. Definitely helped to clear up some of my bigger questions around the Buddhist teachings. Which is basically 'what does the Buddha mean by the end of suffering'? Obviously not ALL suffering ends, physical, emotional pain, disease, etc. I must admit this has confused me. Forgive me if I seem resistant; quite to the contrary. I'm inquisitive, and I'm trying to find where this distinction is made clear in the Pali.
Looking in SN56.11:

1: “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."

So in the first noble truth, he defined suffering as what Bahiya refers to as “the suffering of the body”, along with the “second arrow” type suffering - the clinging part that is solved in the 3rd and 4th noble truths.  He defines both of these subsets of suffering as “suffering”.  But the suffering of the body is not resolved in the following two truths.

2: “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Here, I believe he’s referring to craving as in the mental formation of attraction, grasping, but NOT the “suffering of the body”.  Am I understanding that correctly?  In other words, the dhukka described in the second noble truth is actually a subset of the dukkha described in the first noble truth.  A bit confusing, if so.

3: “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."

It’s confusing because the translation calls it “the cessation of suffering” but “suffering” is defined previously in two different ways.  Again, he’s now referring to the same subset of dukkha as referred to in noble truth 2 - not the suffering of the body included in noble truth 1, just the craving formations of the mind.  In other words, when he says “cessation of that same craving” he is referring to the ‘second arrow’.  

Love the guy, but it is a bit confusing when you think about it no?  Why would he not make the distinction that the dhukka referred to in truths 2+3 is not the same as the Dhukka in truth 1 a little more clear? Where else in the Pali is this distinction made, if not in this oft-quoted SN56.11?

How is he not using two different definitions of the same word dukkha?  One includes bodily suffering and one does not. 

Perhaps I’m missing something obvious.
​​​​​​​Anyway, thanks for making it clear!

Hi Bahiya,

Yes, the meaning that we give to the Pali word dukkha is clearly central to this debate.  I much prefer "unsatisfactory" and that seems to be the most common modern translation of it.  This article gives a good account of the translation difficulties with the term:

https://alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-dukkha/

in it, he says that "dukkha has no perfect English translation".  It's one of the big issues with the study of Buddhism in the English-speaking world.

I think that you are putting too much weight on the "modicum of stress".  The sutta also states that "Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance".  That seems to me to amount to a big reduction in stress.

​​​​​​​ I don't think that we're very far apart from each other in our understanding of this. The modicum of stress is the first arrow and there's no avoiding it but we can avoid the second arrow by not taking things personally.

Best regards,

Conal

"Unsatisfactory" is typically an academic translation of dukkha and not one I commonly see used by lay practitioners. Admittedly, it's a damn sight better than "bummer".  

You obviously, Conal, obviously, knew what I meant. To suggest otherwise is deceitful. Suffering is a translation of dukkha that is ubiquitous. I mean literally unavoidable. It is so common as to be unquestionable, whether or not you think there are better translations. 

What are you playing at?

First you claimed you couldn't see my interpretation anywhere in the sutta, 'even in an implied way, let alone plain as day.' When I quoted the exact passages, you suddenly couldn't understand them. Then you pivoted to asking about nirvana being 'beyond the senses' - which you now admit isn't true. When that failed, you shifted to claiming this was all a semantic misunderstanding about the word 'suffering' versus 'unsatisfactory.'

​​​​​​​You've gone from 'the dharma reveals the underlying nature of reality we can't perceive' to agreeing 'there's nothing to perceive beyond the six senses.' From questioning whether this 'negates the Four Noble Truths' to accepting that bodily stress has no resolution. From 'I can't see where it says that' to 'we're not very far apart in our understanding.'

This isn't clarification - it's a complete reversal disguised as a translation debate. You knew what dukkha meant. You knew what I was saying.

Why are you carrying on with this charade? What was the purpose of this — to turn around and say I'm over emphasizing a modicum of stress?

​​​​​​​A modicum of stress is a modicum of stress, a modicum means no ultimate resolution, by definition. 

You are making my own points back at me, points you originally disagreed with.

For what?

If you genuinely misunderstood, fine - but own the reversal. Don't pretend we were always in agreement while simultaneously claiming I'm overemphasizing the very point you initially rejected.

Do you see how disingenuous that is?

Deflect, reframe and save-face ;)

Do it again !

Ok, I am out of this.  You're spoiling for a fight that I have no interest in.  There are lots of inaccuracies in what you have written, but I am not going to escalate things by pointing them out.  

I know from some of your other posts that you have anger issues.  Your reaction here shows me that they have not yet been resolved.

Conal

J W wrote:
”2: “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Here, I believe he’s referring to craving as in the mental formation of attraction, grasping, but NOT the “suffering of the body”.  Am I understanding that correctly?”

I tend to intepret that ”craving which leads to existence” is the pre- and post-bodily desire to become a living being, to have an existence, a body. So in human body, when realising the causes of existence and the process of craving, there is a possibility of end of such existence. In that way the passage would be about ”bodily suffering”. But that’s just one way to interpret. 

 Conal, just because I am challenging you, does not mean I am angry. 

You're a grown man, older than me, if you're going to make a statement then stand by it — if you realized you've changed your mind then admit it. 

Back-pedaling like this, shifting blame, saying I am angry or looking for a fight, when you started this — and still have not clarified any of your disagreements, it's petty and weird. 

​​​​​​​None of this is anger, it is clarity, it is integrity, it is love for the dharma.

I have not said an angry word, all I have done is point out what the sutta said, what you said and what I said. 



You:

1. Claimed victim status ("spoiling for a fight")
2. Asserted there are "inaccuracies" without identifying any
3. Shifted to ad hominem ("you have anger issues")
4. Exited while claiming the high ground

This is exactly the pattern I called out. Instead of addressing:

• Your complete reversal on dharma beyond the senses
• Your shift from not seeing my interpretation to agreeing with it
• Your contradictory positions on nirvana
• The documented progression of your deflections

Have some integrity, one cannot make any progress in the dharma without integrity. 

The Buddha taught that some suffering remains even after awakening. This is stated plainly in the sutta. You initially denied this, then agreed with it, then claimed I was overemphasizing it. Which position do you actually hold? Why have you repeatedly avoided the question? Why is it so difficult for you to simply state your understanding of the dharma?

You obviously wanted to discuss the fine points of the dharma or you wouldn't have corrected me originally, what changed?
 

Let's be honest, am I really the angry one, Conal?

Are you capable of that kind of honesty, that kind of intimacy with experience, that sort of dharma, that sort of truth?

The modicum of stress which remains is a teaching worth emphasizing exactly because of its honesty. 

It is the dharma, it is such a profound realization, such an immense transmission of wisdom.

Everything one might need to know about the dharma and awakening is there, in the modicum of stress. 

My God, it is really such a profound revelation. Staggering. Mindblowing. Absolutely sublime.  

To be at peace with the modicum of stress, to accept birth for what it is, as it happens, through and through. 

It doesn't get any better than that. 

The end of suffering is made possible through the deep acknowledgement of what remains. 

Ahh, the fucking beauty of it. Jesus Christ, is it not the most beautiful thing you've ever heard. The modicum of stress. The never-ending end. 

​​​​​​​Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

I am so fucken angry right now, my eyes are bugged out of my head with the anger, the tears are rolling down my cheeks with the outrage. 

​​​​​​​I am absolutely serene with it, the heart-bright animosity, the phosphorescent temper, it is gleaming, it is radiant, it is a luminous fury. 

( Chris I'm messing, I'm not really angry )

The teaching that suffering remains after awakening isn't a limitation or disappointment — it is the dharma, it is awakening, it is freedom.

Dude, please do everyone a favor, relax, get off your high horse and stop taking yourself and this stuff so damn seriously. Rigidity, to me, is not a sign of insight or wisdom. I don't think you are in a position to make grand statements and lecture people. Thanks. 

Hahahaha, no

Give a good reason, tell me why I'm wrong, stop tone policing, don't be a dork.

Have the discussion. 

If you think I'm wrong, tell me why...

What is with all this preciousness?

I don't care at all about your argument and who is right or wrong. You are acting immaturely, with an out of place assertiveness that's quite obnoxious. If you can't see that, maybe take a step back from all this "advanced practice" business, internet forums, and find something that relaxes you more. I also recommend cultivating humility... 

I'm discussing what the Buddha taught about awakening in a thread about awakening. You're discussing my personality. Which one of us is off-topic?

What you have said here, Olivier, in a few sentences, is more aggressive than anything I have said, check yourself, sweetheart. 

lol, ok. 

Dismissive, superior, and still refusing to engage with any substance — and you'd think to call me out.

Right Speech ladies and gentlemen, right speech


"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."


I have been really liking following this discussion about suffering and hope we can all get back on track without the verbal conflict.

Truth Seeker, I agree with your hope that people would get back to the actual discussion. It is always difficult to awake into a conflict, if ones buttons get pressed or if one happens to push buttons on others. If an internet forum is a sangha, it’s important to see how the sangha goes into heat and out of it again perhaps optimally not losing anyone or anything while it burns...

Both individual and collective sensitivity, listening and awareness are questioned by good old conflict. Much more useful to awake in such a moment than while sitting in meditation - or is it, maybe it’s all the same. 


​​​​​​​right speech - i’ve many times, also in this thread, gone over the idle chatter limit, but it’s relative and sometimes hard to judge.  

What is “substance?” One of my favorite quotes comes from Jiddu Krishnamurti. When asked what he thinks about the Buddha, he says: “What do I think about the Buddha? Sir… I do not think about the Buddha.” What is it to “revere” someone (or their words) to anyone other than the self structure? Who or what but the self structure can be informed or instructed by anyone? Yes, this is the practice. It will play out as it needs to play out, for all involved. In the end it’s not about anything that can be conceptualized. There is no right way or wrong way to the path. 



​​​​​​​

We spend a lot of time looking for signal through noise, only to realize that the signal is also in the noise. 

I made a single sentence interpretation of a sutta. 

My interpretation was disagreed with and it was made out by multiple users that I did not understand the sutta. 

Then I broke down, the specific section of the sutta, line by line. 

I was once more told that my interpretation could not be found in the sutta despite, the lines highlighted being obviously equivalent to my original summation. 

This repeated a number of times until it became obvious I was engaging in a bad faith argument. At which point, without ad hominem or attacks, I made clear the pattern I was observing in the conversation. 

Then Conal blamed all of this on my anger. A cheap trick, given there was no anger, that I had carefully chosen every word, and so I called out his bullshit, I call out bad faith arguments when I see them.

I was confrontational, yes, challenging, yes, but never angry. I enjoy this. Like many Buddhist sages down through the histories, I like to argue. 

This is relaxing for me...

I like to debate. 

And the points I made about the modicum of stress are valid and profound. I suspect some of those who engaged might want to sit with themselves and meditate on it for a few years, Olivier.

Let's be crystal...
Conal, could have backed out at any time. Instead he chose, repeatedly to make vague insinuations at me. 

Olivier, well, Olivier got absolutely exposed. He admitted to not caring about the conversation, and participated here only to exercise his superiority and make ad-hominem attacks.

'Advanced practice', he says. Maybe I could teach him a thing or two. Certainly I have much that may be helpful to him on the topic of anger management. 

This is the Dharma Overground. 

The forum would not exist without these sorts of conversations. 

I am absolutely in my right to take a dogged position on the Dharma and duke it out.

I am absolutely in my right to call out a bad faith argument when I see one. 

That was two for the price of one. 

Lots of love,
​​​​​​​Bb

He is French But a good guy on Fridays!  

​​​​​​​Good to see you suddenly pop by Olivier  

Bahiya, you may be right, but it’s interesting what your debate arouses in others. Maybe they are not wrong either. Anyways when text is the way of relating and even words are understood in conflicting ways, emotional and other meanings are for sure difficult to convay in intended ways. But this is not actually my debate, so I’ll bow and shut up. 

Hi Bahiya,

That's a lovely little story that you're spinning for yourself.  It's a shame that it's bolstering up your sense of self though.

Conal

Bahiya playing with the calf!  

Hey all...slowly coming back online after my planned "first solo retreat" turned from about 3 days into a week lol! So good...

And anyway, I return to find this very interesting debate! I'm still sifting through it, and still have so much to learn that I decided I'd share part of a  GPT deep research breakdown:

"To sort these views against the sources:

• No Dharma beyond senses: MN 121 (quoted above) does not say “absolutely nothing beyond senses,” but it strongly implies that insight is about sensory phenomena. It says awakening occurs within the “six sense fields” conditioned by the body. Nothing in early Pāli literature suggests a separate transcendental realm accessed by mind alone. Even the ineffable Nibbāna is not described as a special “experience beyond senses,” but as the extinguishing of greed-hate-delusion within the ordinary context (the arahant “realizes nothing further for this world”holybooks.com). Daniel Ingram, commenting on the Four Truths, points out that “ordinary suffering” includes the five aggregates (birth, death, etc.) and is not fully resolved by cessation of cravingsuttafriends.orgmctb.org. Thus the canonical picture aligns with Bahiya: practice is about deeply understanding sense-experience (the five aggregates) and the awakening is realized there, not by going somewhere else.
• Cessation of suffering: SN56.11 (the first sermon) says the cessation of suffering is the fading away of cravingsuttafriends.org. It does not explicitly claim cessation of birth or death, only cessation of the craving that causes future rebirth. In fact, by ending craving an arahant will no longer be reborn (so in a future sense, “birth” as an aggregate ceases). But while alive, the arahat still experiences the unsatisfactoriness of the body. The commentary and other suttas (like the Sallatha Sutta, SN 22.59) clarify: pain still arises, but without suffering. Conal’s view—that an arahant doesn’t endure pain as dukkha—overemphasized the second arrow and neglected how the Buddha used dukkha for first-arrow pain. Bahiya’s insistence that awakening leaves a “modicum of stress”holybooks.com matches the canonical nuance: it acknowledges the Buddha’s listing of bodily suffering as dukkhasuttafriends.org while accepting that craving-fueled suffering ends.
• Mahayana/Vajrayana perspective: While the debate was mostly Theravāda-focused, one can note that Mahāyāna sutras (e.g. Prajñāpāramitā texts) emphasize śūnyatā (emptiness of inherent existence) and the mind-only nature of phenomena. For instance, the Heart Sūtra famously declares “form is emptiness, emptiness is form,” pointing to no fixed reality beyond phenomena. This is somewhat consonant with the idea that nothing exists apart from experiential content. Bahiya’s claim that there is nothing “beyond the senses” has a rough echo in Madhyamaka and Yogācāra teachings that all phenomena are empty and ultimately mind-only. Even so, mainstream Buddhism of all schools agrees that direct experience (of the aggregates or “mind and ideas”accesstoinsight.org) is the basis of practice. In short, the content of Bahiya’s interpretation (that insight is lived and not mystical) aligns with both early and later teachings, whereas Conal’s proposed “hidden reality” is not required by any authentic scripture."

Looks like I have this weeks homework cut out for me....now I have to study all this stuff, jeez THANKS ;) 

EDIT: p.s. I left out anything that felt too divisive with regards to who GPT thought was arguing in good faith or not. I'm mostly interested in 'getting to the bottom' of the dharma topics in question. 

Let’s see…

I don’t like to get into this sort of positioning but for the sake of fairness…

You have to understand that the statements you have been arguing about, and their related insights, are, for some people including yours truly, nothing groundbreaking, do not appear particularly profound anymore, and have in fact been no brainers for a long time. Yes, after awakening, the « first arrow » remains. What activities people choose to engage in will also have an impact on that. For instance Trungpa was a big time drinker and also had kids and busyness. I myself am no monastic, enjoy a cold draught, and have a worldly life. I am sure people who stick to developing agapé all the time, living in retreat like settings, as I sometimes do for a few weeks, have a smoother ride. Hell, when Im on a retreat it’s like even the first arrow is mostly gone. And yes, there is "no dharma beyond sense experience", and in fact, the dharma, result of the dharma, path to the result, and present experience, are neither-two, nor-one, which I was able to fully realize on the tenth day of my however manyeth retreat back in 2021.

But anyways, I have no personal interest in debating these questions based on scripture anymore, although I find the scripture confirmatory and fun, because as I said, that has been my living reality for years, and I know plenty of other people who are alive today who are the same, many with no connection to Buddhism, in fact. The forum — and in particular those who were into the theme of the present topic — might be interested to learn that I am currently involved in a research project that includes one of the leading scholars of Buddhism  in the world and another leading figure in meditation research, which for the first time ever will study full awakening trajectories across traditions through indepth interviews with highly advanced practitioners recognized for most of them as « at the end of the path » in their respective traditions. We’re looking at the overall trajectory of development, and a lot of other stuff. I can’t share the results yet, but one thing I can perhaps hint at, is that none of the participants report something like not even a modicum of stress remaining. To me, this will do more than rehashing these old questions based on personal experience and scripture debate.

But I understand and respect that such discussions have to be had by those developing the skills and insights, and this will happen again and again with no end in sight. Which is probably why there have been perhaps tens or hundreds of such discussions even on this forum over the years.

What you also sometimes see is a person with a decent amount of experience and insight, but not perhaps the lightheartedness, humility, normalcy, and unfixation that come with the later realizations, who will take these discussions very seriously, arguing about words and with such a strong sense of theirI remember a time in my life when I was still somewhat down the rabbit home where I retrospectively can say I was giving exagerated importance and seriousness to my deep insights (very real and deep they were), so I can relate.

However, what I don’t understand and respect, is when these things turn to dick contests, for instance when someone starts writing long, detailed posts about semantics, saying defensive things like « It feels like ye're deliberately misreading me », reading into the other person’s intentions (“You're trying to redefine dukkha as only the mental component to preserve the idea that awakening eliminates all suffering […] Why resist what the Buddha actually taught? I do not believe we are having a semantic discussion, there is really no reason to frame it as such.” When Conal replies “I don't think that we're very far apart from each other in our understanding of this. The modicum of stress is the first arrow and there's no avoiding it but we can avoid the second arrow by not taking things personally” and your own reaction is “You obviously, Conal, obviously, knew what I meant. To suggest otherwise is deceitful. Suffering is a translation of dukkha that is ubiquitous. I mean literally unavoidable. It is so common as to be unquestionable, whether or not you think there are better translations. What are you playing at?”, it sounds pretty paranoid.

​​​​​​​Then, a string of superlative accusations coupled with imperatives and a series of defensive questions that are starting to sound like intimidation, push the nail in the coffin: “This isn't clarification - it's a complete reversal disguised as a translation debate. You knew what dukkha meant. You knew what I was saying. Why are you carrying on with this charade? What was the purpose of this — to turn around and say I'm over emphasizing a modicum of stress? A modicum of stress is a modicum of stress, a modicum means no ultimate resolution, by definition. You are making my own points back at me, points you originally disagreed with. For what? If you genuinely misunderstood, fine - but own the reversal. Don't pretend we were always in agreement while simultaneously claiming I'm overemphasizing the very point you initially rejected. Do you see how disingenuous that is? “ This is starting to feel extraordinarily reactive and to express a loss of perspective on what is happenning.

This is followed by another accusatory statement « Deflect, reframe and save-face ;) Do it again !”, leading to Conal wisely leaving the discussion. Your peremptory tone, accusations and strings of imperatives (“if you're going to make a statement then stand by it — if you realized you've changed your mind then admit it. Back-pedaling like this, shifting blame, saying I am angry or looking for a fight, when you started this — and still have not clarified any of your disagreements, it's petty and weird […] Have some integrity, one cannot make any progress in the dharma without integrity.” , all of this seems completely out of place and overreactive especially when my own impression of Conal’s attitude throughout was of good faith engagement: in these sorts of situations, my red flags light up.

Once Conal left you then again drilled down on your accusations, and then started making grandiose assertions about the depth of your insight and the profundity of what you are saying (“Are you capable of that kind of honesty, that kind of intimacy with experience, that sort of dharma, that sort of truth? […] It is the dharma, it is such a profound realization, such an immense transmission of wisdom. Everything one might need to know about the dharma and awakening is there, in the modicum of stress.  My God, it is really such a profound revelation. Staggering. Mindblowing. Absolutely sublime.  To be at peace with the modicum of stress, to accept birth for what it is, as it happens, through and through”). After this in our exchanges, when you ironically start using words like « sweetheart », then later end up insulting me, the picture that is painted is not that of “clarity, integrity, love for the dharma", but of a lack of perspective, fixation, hyperassertiveness, and agression. 

​​​​​​​In fact it reminds me of this Agnostic guy who used to post here back in the day. Might study your DhO history to see how that ended, you could start with the last pages of my last log for instance. You say there was no anger, but it is really, really not what this has felt like to me. You feel you were perfectly in the right to repeatedly insinuate that Conal was playing strange deceptive tricks on you, and so we are to think that you are displaying an aggressive, intimidating attitude.

It would not be out of character, either. I may not participate here much anymore, but I read sometimes, and I remember the time when you said you thought you were someone who readily gets angry attitude people in daily life for small things, in a way that would shock the people of this forum, and you wrote that you thought you were a psychopath or narcissist (smthg like that, I don't recall exactly). I also remember when you flipped and violently lashed out at some random guy who was being provocative here on the forum. You swore at him, using more flourid language than what you used here to qualify me. After the fact you expressed regret and decided to step off the forum for a while to work on the issues Conal mentioned before wisely buying out of this conversation. The present exchange, felt very in line with the image you painted of yourself. In fact it felt like bullying, which I dislike, hence my out of the ordinary posting on DhO. (Hi Papa Che).

I’ve had such intuitions and called out some people on it a few times over the years, not least of which Agnostic, and my instinct always proved right. Maybe Im wrong, and I can keep refining my view, but I will trust my experience. This may not be an inherent character of your « personality », but I can see a trend of verbal actions, which at least Conal also picked up on.

In fact, grandiosity, a sense of empowerement or even invulnerability, behavior like posting series of long detailed messages in an argument, an overwhelming energy that overpowers (with or without intent of doing so) the other in conversation — all these are part of the criteria for mania, or hypomania, and this has a distinct feel to those whôve learned to recognize it. I literally study this overlap for a living, as one of the research directions of my work. I know plenty of dear Friends and colleagues, and we’ve had examples of people on this forum, who got too high and went manic - the last one was I think Sigma Tropic. Takes on many form, but as my friend John, who has a tendency to fly high, put it to me: « manic energy is selfish energy ». 

So, all in all, I reiterate what I said. Not that you are narcissistic with hypomanic  delusions of grandeur on your way to a full manic episode, of course. But based on the vibe I am getting, I think you should get off your high horse, perhaps back off from what looks like a fixation on the profundity of these things from this angle, and chill out ? Yes, I do see your attitude here as immature and obnoxious. I might not have been perfectly professional myself in the way I said it, and I'm happy to apologize if that hurt you, but hey, even arahats are still people ;)

Also, the insults you’ve thrown at me, that was not very honorable.

Be well, and be good.

Olivier  

It seems like focusing on the divisiveness of speech on both sides is making it hard for me to parse the actual dharma here

Hi Olivier,

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I agree with everything you wrote. I may have had a go at doing a similar post but it wouldn't have been half as good as this. In any case hopefully Bahiya will be more open to it from you than from me.

Your research project sounds amazing. Please keep us posted.

Best regards,

​​​​​​​Conal

Hi Tyler,

Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting.  

I think it misses some of the nuances of the conversation though.  For example, at the end it says that I proposed a "hidden reality".  My statement was "Dharma is very much about "the underlying nature of reality that we can't perceive".  I said this in the context of insights that come from vipassana practice.  For example I had very little perception of the three characteristics or the steps of dependent origination before I started meditating.  GPT has treated this in the more global sense of what reality is made up of rather than the individual experiences of meditators which is what I had in mind.

The part on dukkha for an arahant seems right though. I said differently but then I am not an arahant and so I was just speculating!  In any case, this seems like quite a fine distinction.

Best regards,

​​​​​​​Conal

I expect the recent fiery nature of the commentary here in this topic to cool off now. It has to, because it has become about the posters, not the posts. That's never a good thing.

Thank you all,

Chris M
DhO Moderator

Where there is an awakening. There has to be a flipping out. Atleast once in a while. I do it all the time
I meant that as a joke, hoping to lighten the conversation a bit.

To share some of my story and hopefully add constructively to the conversation atleast to some limited extent.

I am not a spiritual person. I never was and never shall be. That is not my 'prarabdha' - destiny determined by past intentional actions. But somehow due to those same past intentional actions and their consequences I experienced a lot of suffering. I came to this craft of awakening seeking relief from depression and anxiety. My depression and anxiety got cured once I seriously took up vipassana practice, in a matter of months. This was long before stream entry. It happened due to a particularly strong Insight into the anatta nature of how the mind works to create views and attitudes. The reason I continued practicing is because I had tasted victory in one small battle against the defilements within that had lead to my mental health issues and I wanted to press my advantage and win the entire fucking war. Full and complete conquest, because I had a bone to pick.

I have always seen Siddharth Gautam's writings as models. He experienced a lot of anguish in his life, wanted to overcome it, did it, wanted to put what he had learnt into explanatory models and technique instructions. This is what the suttas are to me. The 'writings' of a man steeped in a particular time and culture having access to a particular way of framing direct understanding and a particular kind of language which came along with its own baggage. I never needed to be told what 'dukkha' is. I had tons of it. What I did need to know is the techniques to understand it and overcome it. To understand the techniques I needed to know the conceptual models that explain those techniques.

I never had any problems with the term 'modicum of stress'. I just couldnt be arsed to find out what Gautam meant by that in an academic sense ... like actually meant by that. I had bigger fish to fry

Due to my attainment I am free of the following:

1. Guilt
2. Regret
3. Remorse
4. Fear, worry, anxiety
5. Misery, self pity, pity in general
6. Disgust, hatred
7. Desperation for things to be anything other than what they are

After my attainment I have retained the following:

1. Ambition
2. Ability and intention to gain health, wealth, power
3. Ability and contextual willingness to speak my mind
4. Ability and contextual willingness to calculate incentives or disincentives in social situations and sometimes do things that other people wont or cant
5. Clear intention of bringing about well being and success in the lives of people whom I care about and who care about me, and clear discrimination in terms of knowing who does not belong to this subset of humanity
6. Clear and precise sense of being an individual actor in a large body of individual actors, knowing perfectly well that there are some things that work as a zero sum game and other things that increase when you share - like knowledge of awakening techniques (to take but just one contextual example)

Basically I was, am, and will remain a very ordinary man. But I am an ordinary man with a spectacularly extraordinary personal achievement ..... And I know it

A lot of people say dark night, or things they attribute to “dark night” is the hardest stage of this whole adventure, but for me the later stages, where insights have been had—truly deep insights—and things have become super subtle, is the hardest. This is where the self structure or ego, or whatever you want to call it continuously reifies, and reorganizes around subtler and subtler criteria, and reasserts itself as the center of it all at each new iteration or insight stage as the one who is enlightened, or wise, or whatever. Earlier stages where there is obvious purging and upheaval give a person a solid and clear set of “problems” to overcome. Everyone knows they shouldn’t be angry, or jealous, or malicious, or rude in whatever way, but it’s much harder to look at something, some piece of wisdom you “know” is or must be true, and see that knowledge as a potential hinderance as well—not what the knowledge points to (direct experience), but just the fact that the ego thinks IT “knows” it, and that that’s somehow important, or an “attainment.”The “attainments” aren’t in fact attainments, they are direct experiences. In that way, there is no “knowledge” that will ever be important, no experts or sages or “wise ones” that will ever (or could ever) be an authority. No dogma, no religion, no hierarchy, no path, none of it. All of those things may be tools at some time or other, and it can be fun to talk about them, so long as we don’t take the map as the territory. What the Buddha, or Christ, or any other sage or enlightened person said or meant about any of it becomes obvious, and therefore inconsequential. It might still be fun to talk about for some, and those discussions may help others, but often in ways we don’t intend. 

I'm one of the few people here who actually puts their practice on the line, who actually gives a shit about the Dharma, who actually has skin in the game. 

Most of you don't really share your practice, you don't communicate insight, you don't risk being wrong. You share only enough to get the little status bump of being a meditator or whatever it is. 

The whole time I have been here the one common thread has been potshots and insinuations made at me by people who aren't brave enough to really say anything, people who would weaponize information I shared in vulnerability, people who themselves are not capable of vulnerability, Conal. 

It's cheap and it's pathetic. 
I have been more rigorously honest, more intimate about the details of my practice than any other user I have seen on this site. 

And I'm not going to be gaslit or intimidated by people who've never put a single paragraph of practice on the line, Conal. 

Olivier, sure, ok, that is fair and genuinely well said. I can appreciate you having taken the time to write that. And I'm sorry for insulting you because I do respect you. But honestly, Conal is a fucking cunt. 

Yes, I was trying to intellectually dominate someone I don't like. I can admit that. But I just cannot stand a man who won't stand by what he has said. Particularly one with the balls to say I don't understand the sutta — I have dealt with enough spineless cult members in my time. 

People don't take snide, weasely pot-shots at me in real life — why is that?
​​​​​​​
Peace and love everybody. 
Bye bye. 
 

I was wrong to share any vulnerable information on this site. I regret doing it and I advise against it.

I should not have been honest. It is not a place one can safely venture honesty. 

I didn't say a mean word and had no meanness to me until personal information was weaponized against me.

I am a psychopath, I have anger problems, and everyone else is a Saint. 

​​​​​​​Anyway, good luck. 

Accepting the reality of birth in a human body is an immense freedom, this modicum of stress, this tiny imperfection. It is an absolutely stunning truth. 

Interesting, I just notice now that the bit in your previous post where you said that I was "just an angry little man, really", has been edited out.

​​​​​​​I wonder if you'll edit out the bit in your latest post where you call Conal "a fucking cunt" — and then end with "peace and love everybody".

Could we try to bring it back to dharma y'all? If this fight was originally about the cessation of suffering, maybe we could look at how this is...causing suffering. 

Edit: Everyone here is trying to navigate attachment, aversion, greed, ego, aggression, and pride (I think, among other things). No one is inherently a villain or saint.

Hi Olivier He IS an Irish after all! But a good guy on Fridays! 

 "But I am an ordinary man with a spectacularly extraordinary personal achievement ..... And I know it" you seem very certain! 

"6. Disgust" you clearly have never experienced the Swedish Surstromming!!! Or my fart for that matter!  

And about "fear" ... hm , stand in front of a bear or a wolf or lion in the wild and report as its unfolding please!  

This thread is starting to stink! Ugh!  

"During the production of surströmming, just enough salt is used to prevent the raw herring from rotting while allowing it to ferment. A fermentation process of at least six months gives the fish its characteristic strong smell and somewhat acidic taste.[2] A newly opened can of surströmming has one of the most putrid food smells in the world, even stronger than similarly fermented fish dishes such as the Korean hongeo-hoe, the Japanese kusaya or the Icelandic hákarl, making surströmming an acquired taste."

Woof! Why do I think I want to try that? I do not want to try that...but I'd probably try it >.<

He also edited his original claim that he had plenty worth meditating for years in store for me, replaced by "Maybe I could teach him a thing or two."

Now, it's turning into lamentful victimization. I have to say Im surprised that this is unfolding so exactly as I expected. 

"you seem very certain!"

You seem very observant

"stand in front of a bear or a wolf or lion in the wild and report as its unfolding please!"

​​​​​​​I am not a suicidal arahant

Oh well, it looks like I really pushed his buttons!  He seems to have left the list.  It's a shame really.  He was an entertaining writer and I usually enjoyed his posts.  I hope he gets some help with his issues.  

​​​​​​​Conal

Hello Dusko

Since you suggested to me an experiment framed in terms of putting myself in danger of dying due to getting mauled by a wild animal. This has got me thinking. I would like to expand on my opinion regarding this, and I would be interested in listening to your opinions.

1. No, I have never put myself intentionally in a position of physical danger in order to test anything. I have been chased by a stray dog once that wanted to bite me, I recognized that and I ran away. I mean I was riding my motorbike, so I increased the acceleration and rode faster and ensured I was out of reach of that dog. In the short duration of that experience my heart beat was elevated, my muscles were tighter, my body held in readiness to fight in case my flight was unsuccessful. This was not 'Fear' to me, this was wisdom in action. I have never equated the very strong preference to keep my body safe in the face of imminent physical harm with Dukkha - the thing  that gets conquered at the arhatship attainment

My question to you: Do you believe that the arhatship attainment means that one would not have a preference to be physically unharmed, and that one would not take the actions necessary to avoid that harm

2. I have experienced friction with relatives, friends, bosses, and colleagues. I have on the fly calculated the results of my actions and determined that there was a threat to my social 'value'. Situation by situation I have taken the steps necessary to defend that social value, and sometimes I have tanked that social value since in those situations the social value wasnt material to me. When I did take mental positions of defending, attacking, conceding etc my mind worked harder than most other situations in order to think, calculate, analyze, evaluate. There was more targeted effort than usual. I experienced nothing that I would call 'fear', for me this was wisdom in action. I have never equated the strong preference to build, maintain and defend social value in the face of an imminent attack on it with Dukkha - the thing that gets conquered at the  arhatship attainment

My question to you: Do you believe that the arhatship attainment means that one would not have a preference to retain social value, and that one would not take the actions necessary to protect that social value

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this - perhaps what kind of investigation got you to that insight, or anything else you can share that might help others find what you have found.

(I'm asking as someone who has high baseline anxiety and a propensity for dark moods )

Regarding your pretty remarkable list of unpleasant emotions that you are free from, I'd like to ask the inverse question - what kind of emotional suffering (if any) have you retained? And how do they differ from how they used to be before your attainment, or perhaps before you began meditating?

And how much of this transformation would you say came strictly from insight attainment, and how much might have come from, say, psychological/therapeutic work, or just from natural human maturation?

Hi Kailin

I am very sorry to hear about your experience of having anxiety and dark moods. I genuinely and truly hope that you find relief and freedom from this, and I wish you great success. I will try to answer your questions in two parts. Hopefully it will give you confidence and inspiration and perhaps it might even give you a direction to take your practice in. If not then maybe it will help someone else.

Regarding my experience with depression and anxiety

I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety in the year 2009 but I might have been suffering from maybe an year before that. I took psychiatric medications from the year 2008/9 till the year 2017 (I dont remember exactly so something like 8.5 or 9 years). Psychiatric medications helps millions of people all over the world and I have nothing but respect for that field, but the fact of the matter is that it did not help me much and it most certainly did not cure me.
I also engaged with a therapist twice during this period. The first time it just didnt feel right, the second time was near the end of this period when I also took up mindfulness meditation. The modality of therapy I engaged with is called REBT. REBT attempts to help the subject identify harsh mental positions/attitudes that in turn creates conflict and thereby mood disorders. Initially the modality didnt help me much since though I could identify harsh mental positions, the act of intellectually challenging them wasnt working for me.

The mindfulness meditation I learnt and did was under a system of practice called MIDL - Mindfulness in Daily Life taught by an Australian teacher Stephen Procter.

The MIDL system teaches multiple different skills that come together to generate a perception of anatta. I cannot do justice to that system of practice in a brief comment. But as an illustration only - a yogi may use his body as an anchor for attention and notice everytime that attention strays away from this gross anchor ... that happens on its own. So this autonomous movement of attention, noticing it again and again would develop a perception of 'autonomy' or anatta which carries forward into other exercises - sounds arise on their own, hearing happens on its own, thoughts arise on their own, thinking of the thoughts happens on its own, sights arise on their own, seeing of the sights happens on its own .... and so on. This is only a brief and limited description.

In meditation one day my attention was fully engaged with the sensations of the breath and a dog barked outside my window, I got distracted, formed an adverse opinion of that dog, formed an adverse opinion of all dogs .... fucking rats all of them (I am joking) .... but while this happened I had this clear sense of being a 'me' that is paying attention to the breath ... and all of this happened on its own.

The on its own nature of:
1. The movement of attention
2. Recognition that this is a distraction
3. Recognition that this is a dog barking
4. getting annoyed and then absolutely hating that dog
5. Forming a harsh opinion about dogs in general and how they have it in for me

This on its own nature was very very clear like a slap in the face and it shook loose all of my attitudes and views, including what are jokingly called 'musturbations' in REBT.
This singular event stopped panic attacks, anxiety reduced in a matter of weeks and in a matter of months all symptoms of depression were gone. My therapist at the time was also an MD psychiatry and a Vajrayana practitioner. A student of a guy called Matthew Ricard. And in conversation with me over a few sessions she sensed that something had changed. We talked about my practice and the event that had happened. She refused to comment on the meditation and the event except to encourage me to continue. She reduced the frequency of our meetings and told me to continue doing REBT work on my own ... and she rapidly tapered down the anti-depressant I was taking till I was no longer taking it.

Through out this entire period of time I was meeting with my Doctor/Therapist and did not do any experimentation with the drugs on my own and followed her instrcutions to the T. This was sometime in mid 2017 after maybe 4 or 5 months of daily consistent practice using MIDL instructions. When this happened I got a tremendous amount of confidence in the techniques I was using and also a tremendous amount of confidence in myself. This got boosted when jhanas started happening on their own while I was doing vipassana practice. Somewhere along the way I had decided that this thing within me that tortured me for almost a decade ... I was going to end it! Like complete victory. So I continued practicing in a very systematic and structured way supplementing my MIDL practice with Leigh Brasington jhanas, then Visuddhimagga jhanas, then TMI, then further nuanced practice direction from a few suttas, the patisambhidamagga .... and I reached the end of suffering.

I hope something in my writing gives you inspiration and perhaps a direction. My memory of dates and timelines is unclear and thus imprecise. Answering your question regarding emotions below.

"what kind of emotional suffering (if any) have you retained? And how do they differ from how they used to be before your attainment, or perhaps before you began meditating?"

I dont have any emotional suffering that I have retained. Regarding emotions and how emotions worked for me before versus after I had written an explanation in a different forum, a discord server I run where I was talking to Linda. I am copy pasting that conversation below.

Copy pasted from a different forum:

In continuation of a conversation with @Linda ”PollyEster” (they/them) When I did not practice, I did not have a view of my mind, its cognitive activities and aggregate mental states. Thus I very clearly had emotions, the same way everybody else has them - I am assuming this of course, because I don't live inside any body else's head. As I began meditating I developed an understanding of the sensorium - the sensory capability and its environment. The act of meditating methodically and consistently just simply developed a smartness about patterns of activities. Specific to emotions: I saw emotions to be cognitive activity triggered by that which I perceived. This could be the visual or auditory perception of a neighbour with whom I have a property dispute, or my children. Or this could be the perception of a memory randomly/habitually showing up. This 'triggered' cognitive activity was discrete in its nature. It had elements - most of which I term as meaning based thinking (as opposed to visual/verbally presented thinking) This cognitive activity and its elements, being discrete, occupied a period of time objective time by being constantly refreshed - for that period of time. Each element of this cognitive activity was layered with one of three affective tones - vedana - positive/negative/neutral The perception was unintended, the discrete cognitive elements were unintended, their refreshing was unintended, The period of time that this cognitive activity occupied was unintended. Not only was it unintended, it was habitual, compulsory, it had a 'push' to it. This knowledge and understanding emerged from meditation, immersion in the sensorium, scrutiny of how it works, pattern recognition.

Over a period of time meditation gave me a bird's eye view of the push/compelled nature of this cognitive activity, as well as why it happens. The sense that emerged was that this was a process of 'appropriation' of the sensorium. A system that can flow smoothly without friction, minding its own business was constantly interrupted and over flowed with this cognitive activity heavily layered with affect. This sensory overflow had a base inner drive - the drive to appropriate/own/claim ownership of. And invariably every time this chaotic, compulsive overflow happened it was either accompanied by or followed by misery in one of its flavours


Path moments gave me freedom from the compulsion / the push /the drive to appropriate
Do I experience emotions today - most certainly not in the same way as I used to experience them.
Do I love my children? Most certainly not in the same way as before.
Love, grieving, hatred, lust, repulsion .... everything that we call emotions are compulsive activity in which we have no choice. No wisdom, just being constantly pushed into one particular position of appropriation of the sensorium

I look at my children and they give me joy. I think of a calamity befalling them - it has negative vedana. By the way .... I dont think of calamity befalling them. I see such things as masochistic tendencies wiped out by path moments ... but for the sake of the conversation ..

Emotions the way people usually experience them are continuous habitual compelled appropriation of the various different components of the sensorium with no wisdom behind them. @Linda ”PollyEster” (they/them) and here's the deal - people who try to get rid of emotions, try to suppress them, wish that they were free of them, perhaps act on suppressing them or bypassing them in some way .... are slaves to the very same emotions that they hate so much. I must have emotions I must not have emotions .... two sides of the same silly coin. The path does not involve taking either one of these positions. The path is all about understanding the sensorium - the 5 aggregates and learn how appropriation/upadana happens .... learn how it hurts the organism mentally and physically and over a period of time develop the wisdom needed to be free of the upadana. @Linda ”PollyEster” (they/them) You asked, I answered. Honestly.

​​​​​​​There is a sense of unease that we have (until we don't). This sense of unease is all pervasive. Good things happen - unease, bad things happen - unease. Good feelings - unease, bad feelings - unease. This is the dagger of dukkha. It is best to structure practice in a direction that leads to an understanding of this dagger of dukkha so that it can be pulled out. To discuss how to do this, to inform ourselves of practices that help us to this and to apply what we learn in practice, to do all of this in an environment that promotes competence as well as friendship .... as opposed to incompetence and adversarial-ness - That's what this server is about This server isn't about suppressing emotions. It isn't about cherishing them either.

"In the short duration of that experience my heart beat was elevated, my muscles were tighter, my body held in readiness to fight in case my flight was unsuccessful. This was not 'Fear' to me, this was wisdom in action."

Adi, your sentences here are a bit perplexing since what you describe is more or less the definition of fear. Our bodies are wise with their emotions, including fear, just sometimes how we take them is unwise. If you like to define that as "not fear", you are free to do that surely, it's your inner life anyways, but as you describe it here, I guess it needs to be said that it does sound a bit odd.  (And to be sure, I'm not writing this to judge you in general, which is not something I do anyways.)


Generally, I hope this thread won't lead to any overtly sharp decisions by anyone. Be well everyone.

Since my request to stop the contention and the personal nature of the comments in this topic is being ignored, I'm freezing this topic for a few days. If anyone repeats these arguments in a new or existing topic, they risk being banned from the DhO.

If anyone wants to complain or challenge my decision here, please DM me.

Chris M
DhO Moderator

This topic is now open for business. May maturity and decorum prevail!

Thanks for such a detailed response about the nature of emotions and especially for sharing your journey. It is inspiring to see the depth of transformation that can take place, from the earliest stages of practice onwards.

I've started reading about the MIDL system from Stephen's website - my rough first impression is that it is very gentle, but gives clear instructions and explanations that prevent "gentle" from becoming "mushy and new agey". It's already given me pointers for some of the anatta riddles I'd been wrangling with. I plan to incorporate some of this into my own practice.

Hi Martin. My experience is much like yours. The baseline for me sounds similar. I would use the words joy and contentment. These are punctuated with moments where I melt into the moment so completely there are just no words I can find to do it justice. I can see clearly how I had experiences of this at other times, during A and P especially, but the difference was that those were experiences, where the self structure took them in a clinging sort of way. That doesn’t happen anymore. I’ve understood intellectually for a long time how the mechanism works, this whole non-duality thing, but intellectual understanding is not the lived reality. As far as the mundane aspects of my day to day, I do a lot of doing nothing. Some people call that resting in awareness, or whatever, but again, the intellectual understanding of that can’t touch the lived experience. I still run my business, but I don’t do much planning, or thinking, and I don’t worry or stress about it ever. “Bad” things still happen, mistakes, accidents, miscalculations, employee “problems”, etc etc, but they are no longer a problem. I’m no longer interested in politics or world affairs, or news or television (unless my wife wants me to watch something with her). I still have opinions about things, things I like more than others, and all that. It’s just that not having my first choice (or second or third or fourth, lol), really changes the baseline. I could say I really don’t care what happens, but that idea sometimes gives the wrong impression. I’ve spontaneously and intuitively been taking better care of my body in the diet and exercise area, but it doesn’t feel like a focus or concern in any way. It just happens. Anyway, that’s pretty much it. The one thing I can say about it is if you haven’t had this realization, it will absolutely NOT be what you think it will be. 

Easier for my hand to let go of a burning coal! 

​​​​​​​

Indeed, but let's not go searching for burning coal to grab ahold of. 

What about standing in front of a pack of Swedish or Canadian wolves to test if you still feel fear?!  

That would be "searching for burning coal to grab ahold of."
some people's path takes them through torture and prison, and some don't. If I knew the answer to why I'd write a book. 

Torturing oneself and imprisoning oneself is definitely not something I can advise, lol...I think much of my life has been a matter of "yes, the coal burns me, but if I can hold it long enough to eat it, consume it entirely, then I'll understand the burning."

​​​​​​​Far better ways to escape from suffering 

I can see how/why it was necessary for me personally, and I'm grateful to my past for bringing me here. I kind of cherrish it now, can look back fondly even on things like being homeless, losing everything multiple times, starting from zero over and over...it did help me learn to let go of material attachments to some degree. 

But I wouldn't wish that path on my worst enemy!

Better to learn and practice techniques...whereever I am on my path now, I'm glad to just feel like a beginner, cuz I still need to practice, learn techniques, etc. For myself, I wouldn't change a thing in the past. For other people...I hope they can avoid that on their path. 

Putting this out here:

One of the things that has dimmed almost entirely for me along the way, late in practice and since, is the burning desire to know how it all works. This applies just as much to dharma as it does to other things. I don't crave the comfort of thinking in terms of certainties, i.e. safety (mainly because there is no such thing). It's still fun to learn. It's not that I'm not interested in things. It's just that I can now accept uncertainty and not spend inordinate amounts of time theorizing, seeking, hoping to dull the dread and the unpleasant feeling of not knowing the answer. 

Ha ha, yeah. Good post. I notice as a lifelong musician and writer that I no longer really am compelled to do those things like I was once was. I found in retrospect that what I was actually doing with these things was exploring the path, before I even consciously knew there was “a path.” When the A and P landed there was a flurry of inspired activity in both music and writing, specifically, spontaneous poetry and hours and hours of ambient music explorations, that have now tapered off. I still like those things, and if they come, fully formed and effortless, I may still do them, but the drive is gone. The need is gone. The person who wrote the lizard story was so confounding to me when I met them in this way. So extremely talented, and yet not the least bit driven, and not the least bit possessive of any of it. They were like an alien at first, to me. Now though, I get it.

 I consider myself third path. Practice has taken enormous weight off my shoulders. I no longer bear the responsibility of navigating life, being virtuous, or protecting myself. I mostly understand that, experientially speaking, such things happen on their own. This was the greatest gift I could ever receive. I look at my life prior to this realization as nightmareish.

However, there is still a fundamental problemness and discordance inherent in experience, for now. My practice is noticing tension and relaxing it, but even in moments of relaxation, I think the fundamental tension/contraction/reification is still there. Accordingly, I'd say that I'm still suffering, and that suffering is my typical state.  

Practice also upgraded my problem solving skills for both emotional and intellectual tasks — mostly through unclogging, unfixation, effortlessness, spontinaeity, uncontrollability, psychological security, perspectivism, freedom from fixed meanings, freedom from essentialism, and freedom from belief in a 'correct answer' where such a thing does not exist or does not matter.

I no longer reply to conversations on meditation boards that are irrelevant to getting better at meditation. Wait... damn.   

A lot of people who jump into teaching this bypass something fundamental. It is the mundane, everyday aspect. The dharma is literally everywhere and everything. That might seem like EQ bliss-tard nonsense, but it’s not. You know all the words for what is going on. What you seem to be missing is the fact that it is already here. Not in an abstract way, but literally. Every word, every song on the radio, everywhere, all the time. It is screaming at you from every angle. It always is. If you don’t see it, or hear it, is because you are busy looking for it. The looking for it, hides what is there already. We get into the idea that this is “spiritual” or “sacred” and it IS, but that hides the point of it all. It is so simple—simpler than anything you have ever known—that it is putting away the dishes, hugging your wife, disciplining your children, driving your car, and walking your dog. It’s your cat rubbing against your leg, and the leaves falling from your backyard trees.&nbsp;</p><p>We admire and worship the masters who speak and teach, but the overwhelmingly majority of enlightened people never become known. They quietly lift from behind the scenes.

The answer is not a special state, yes. The seeker obscures the sought, yes. But simply knowing that is not enough for selfing to stop. It appears to be a physiological, gradual process. And in my case, that process is ongoing. At times, I have tricked myself into thinking I was done, and that my search had ended; but suffering re-emerged on its own accord.

;P 

Yeah. Me too. The physiological came along with the psychological, but it's as yet impossible to parse the sequence, or determine if there was a sequence that might be relevant. 

Well said Brian

;)

Except that pointing out a person's blind reactive patterns as they actually show up in real time outside of meditation, might be more beneficial to a person's getting better at meditation, than not doing so, or than giving general practice frameworks for someone to figure out on their own without acknowledging the broader patterns outside of meditation — but that requires a willingness to engage at the level of the reactive pattern, and get one's feet really dirty for a bit ;)

It is hard to know what will ultimately prove beneficial or not. Sometimes unpleasant experiences fast forward progress and reveal their true nature as gifts. I remember Agnostic reporting breakthroughs everytime someone pointed out his bullshit rather than ignored it! Anyways, I usually have a similar strategy as yours, which is to no longer engage in meditation forums at all, actually

​​​​​​​Peace,

Sometimes this works, and the recipient of the comment engages in healthy self-examination. Sometimes the person takes the comments personally, blows it back on the commenter, and leaves the forum

I already miss bb, his going is ultimately our loss. No one is perfect. 

I'm missing him too. Hope he comes back, we had just struck up a friendship

I never meant to “call anyone’s bullshit,” and John, if I came across that way, I apologize. I’m probably not as skilled as others at expressing some of these things. What I saw (over multiple threads) was someone who was so close to it that I thought maybe just a little bump might help.Even writing this seems kind of silly now, because everyone is really so close that it’s basically sitting on their laps, whispering in their ear, metaphorically. In fact, much closer than that.Of all the ways of talking about this stuff,I’m kind of partial to the most direct pointers. I love the beauty and mystery in the old systems, both eastern and western, and there is something so attractive in the old stories and the poetic ways of indirectly pointing, but those pointings were designed to reach the broadest possible audience, and here, the audience is a bit narrower. This place also has a pretty healthy backstop lurking around, and would be able to handle skillfully the excesses that sometimes find their way into the discussion.So again, John, if I caused offense, I’m sorry. It was not my intention.

Ah, no worries, Brian. You’re sweet. I’ve done pretty much the exact same thing a couple times before. Your emphasis on faith and uncontrollability is something I hungered for for a long time and scoured the internet for; so it’s nice to see it on the DhO. 

Oh, our Paddy will be back in no time! Can't get rid of those shamrock lads easily!  

Oh, we are all so sweet and dandy! ;P