dark night and daily life and medicine

jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/1/13 5:02 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/1/13 5:02 PM

dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
hi everyone

i (think i) am in dark night and i am miserable in daily life.

first a question
once you pass arising and passing away, does that mean you are in dark night in daily life until you pass on to equanimity? on the cushion do you have still go through the first few stages first before getting to A&P and then dark night?

next, i wonder if health in traditional medicine sense are in line with what happens to people during the dark night. for me, it seems to be focused on my spleen (trust issues). my daily life is very messed up, not necessarily because im trying to mess it up but it just happens without me trying much. i get fired from jobs (im not really excited by them for long), i got bad grades in college and i cant get along with my family or friends.

before you judge me or write me off heres some more facts, let me add that i went to an excellent engineering college and i did not party. i grew up poor and didnt know how the world works in a lot of ways. i found i had dyslexia halfway through college and struggled and suffered. my boyfriend broke-up with me and didnt tell me and instead told the dean that i wasnt leaving him alone and i got a restraining order. i want to go to medical school or study medicine in some form and my jobs are not interesting to me but theres a large part that happens to me. i gave up the 'good' engineering job in corporations and nonprofits as i couldnt stand making widgets and having everything be about the bottom line and having migrant workers be a part of the company's policy. it also didnt help my medical aspirations. i volunteer and run programs for organizations that dont lead to anything. i took on low paying tech job to learn and came face to face with the mess of academia. one boss decided to hire me so he could have someone to talk to about his wife and have a mental affair with at work, another allowed his admin to be a racist and have me fired (and the other two girls of the same race) so that he could still be on his way being tenure. at home, i do lot for my friends and family and sometimes (right now) i feel so much anger or misery. i am seeing a therapist to help but would like your insights as she is not a mediator. mostly i am curious if my experiences currently are explainable other then late teenager (im in my mid 30s) angst. i have never before this seen a therapist and am generally an easy going, withdrawn nerdy person.
- not being able to get along with others so easily
- being dissatisfied with any work
- angry that others are so clueless or falsely happy
- envy that things come so easily to others
- frustrated with the lack of remorse in others for what they do to me
- frustrated with my lack of progress in life
- getting caught up in feelings of 'left out' or abandonment
- dont like people greeting me just for the sake of greeting
- having some premonitions or knowing things that others find amazing and i find distracting. like being drawn to a gym when my friend had fainted there. or turning my head in the direction of where my x-boyfriend would appear in a moment. it can cause problems as i lose my focus on my own issues and salvation and in the case of my x-boyfriend, he thinks i am stalking him.

some physical health things i have noticed are in line with my spleen energy being drained
- thumbnails being less healthy then other nails
- scalloped tongue (swollen), with white or yellow coating
- having trust issues
- anemia (slight)
- etc

i am seeing a Tibetan doctor for the first time for the above. she says i have two humors, flame and lung. i have never had any major or even minor issues (aside from anemia) according to allopathic medicine.

any ideas/insights/suggestions so i can come out of my misery?
Jason , modified 10 Years ago at 4/1/13 8:44 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/1/13 8:42 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 342 Join Date: 8/9/11 Recent Posts
Hi Jenni. Welcome to DhO!

once you pass arising and passing away, does that mean you are in dark night in daily life until you pass on to equanimity?


This plays out differently for everybody, and is a matter of perennial discussion. Ultimately, I think you only get to work out what's dark night and what is other psycho-emotional/physical issues through practice. My personal understanding is something like this: When you've had the insight that all phenomena as you experience them are vividly impermanent and empty of any essence (A+P), your sense of identity begins to crumble. The dukkha or discomfort or misery you experience thereafter is part of life anyway, but you will be more acutely aware of it, and it will tend to increase and cause problems in your life without spiritual practice - i.e. until you finish the job of deconstructing that crumbling identity. So, short answer to your question above, I think yes - but it will be somewhat improved just by beginning to practice.

on the cushion do you have still go through the first few stages first before getting to A&P and then dark night?


Yes. I was confused about this too when I started. I thought that since I was such a classic train wreck of a dark night yogi, I could bypass all that beginner stuff. Not so. Start at the beginning. The good news is, if you've been living with dukkha nana symptoms as the guiding force in your life, the experience of practicing through them is a relief by comparison (at least, that's my personal experience.)

As for the traditional medicine stuff... I think it's a good context for trying to sort some of this out, and finding guidance and wisdom for taking care of yourself. You can learn a lot about yourself and how your body and mind support or destroy each other. The treatments - whatever they are - will help to settle down a lot of your distress so you can practice better. Lots of yogis seem to use acupuncture, qi gong, and yoga to mitigate dark night stuff.

In the end, I feel that a lot of my dysfunction predated any A+P experience, or the roots of the dysfunction did, and probably helped to bring the A+P about. In that situation, chronic dark nightism is a living disaster. But in the context of practice, it's the ultimate silver lining.

any ideas/insights/suggestions so i can come out of my misery?


Practice! Keep posting questions and share your experiences. Read about other peoples' experiences so when it gets really heavy you can remember that the practice really does work.
thumbnail
bernd the broter, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 1:49 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 1:49 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Wow, that sounds like a lot of difficulties. But what exactly makes you think that it's insight related?
thumbnail
Daniel M Ingram, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 6:16 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 6:16 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Welcome to the DhO.

My thoughts also: got an event or series of events you think were the A&P?

That does sound like a lot of not fun stuff: glad you are seeing someone about it. I hope things get better.

What brought you around to a meditation forum? What is the interest, meditation background, etc?
thumbnail
Simon T, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 8:49 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 8:49 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Some guy pretty much said what I wanted to say. I was very obsessed about where I was on the path when I began to practice. It wasn't really helpful and just focussing on the practice would have been a better idea but when practice is really hard we want a way to measure our progress to encourage us. One of my worry was that since I was so much a mess to begin with, if this wasn't the dark night then the dark night must be absolute hell. It turn out that I was indeed in the dark night but it could have been otherwise. Tarin Greco account of stream entry is a good example of that. He was sure to be a dark night Yogi, had pretty much all the symptoms, was obsessed with the path, but ended up crossing the A&P and get stream entry in a matter of hours.

I'm of the opinion that once the path is on your mind, there is not much that can distract you from it. Identity is something you buy totally into or you don't. Any intermediate will be agonizing. This community is quite focussed on insight and we have a tendency to forget the psychological aspect of identity view that get in the way at earlier stage. Thoughts like "I will go feed the poor and that will make me a better person" can get in the way. This is the difficulty of mixing self-improvement while working on dropping the self. I believe it's helful to realise how the high standards we fix for ourselves are social construct. If the path is ultimately about realising that everything is fundammentally ok, any belief that it's otherwise will get in the way.

So while the practice of insight doesn't care much of the internal narrative, it doesn't hurt to orient this narrative in a more positive direction. A narrative that doesn't give disproportionate weight to ambition and bring a good dose of acceptance.
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 10:13 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 10:13 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Welcome to the DhO.

My thoughts also: got an event or series of events you think were the A&P?

That does sound like a lot of not fun stuff: glad you are seeing someone about it. I hope things get better.

What brought you around to a meditation forum? What is the interest, meditation background, etc?



throughout childhood i was very intuitive child. knowing who was on the phone, when we were going to get robbed or mugged, knowing when an aunt was going die, telling my mom not get remarried when i was 9 because i felt it was not right (it wasnt), telling people their thoughts. as an infant, i would not let people i didnt trust (see trust issues!) hold me. they would pick me up and i would make my body go limp when they werent paying attention and wiggle down their body away from them.

i was also a moody or angry or strange kid, not getting along with my brother or understanding basic things or being obsessed with them like curse words or brand names etc. my brother understood all those very well thats part of the reason why we didnt get along. when asked what i wanted to do when i grew up i would become philosophical (at age 5) and say i just want to help people.

my mom would meditate in the morning and if i woke up (i often did) i would get to go with her. so i began meditating young. there was no directions except to calm your mind and focus on your breathe or a word as you breathe in and out.

during college i watched kiren bedi's vipassana movie about the bihar jail. the presenter told us about the goenka retreats and i wanted to leave everything and go immediately. i didnt because i wasnt doing well in school and i feared i wouldnt want to come back if i went. after college, (and a trip to nepal and tibet) i asked the (tibetan) buddhist monk on campus what he thought about it and he said not to go -- vipassana is for the end of your meditation training. so i didnt go. i continued with my non technique meditation but really wanted some guidance.

i had couple of separate nights when i was in high school and post college where i was so giddy with joy and didnt need sleep and just so joyful. i also knew where thing were. there was super crazy 4th of july that was so happy (im not a huge fan of this holiday). i slept for like 1.5 hours and woke up and ran 3 miles ( i wasnt an active runner then), then danced in my room to youtube videos (not normal for me), then went and studied for exams for graduate programs at a book store (also not something i always do but thought it was a good idea since i had so much energy), then i wanted to have lunch with someone, a friend i thought. so i turned around and there was an it was an old friend who asked if i wanted to have lunch. then i decided to go and pray (also not common for me) and wanted to travel with someone there. a professor that i dont always get to talk to because hes so popular was at the bus stop going to prayers so i got to talk to him. then i decided i wanted to watch the fireworks after all so i went to area really late (it was super packed with people) and i called a friend i knew had waited there all day. i couldnt hear her on the phone so didnt know where she was really but somehow i worked my way through about a mile of crowds and found her just 3 minutes before the fireworks started. i had a really nice front row spot on the grass where i could not only sit but lay down. my other friends who were suppose to make there werent able to find her. after the fireworks, i thought i should go and find those friends, so as i was making my way back home via foot and bus, i turned my head just as i had that thought and there they were. i got off the bus and caught up to them. they were having a miserable time, they had practically missed the fireworks and now they couldnt find their car. i somehow knew where their car was even though i didnt see them park and found it for them in 1 minute. and then they drove me home and that was it. the next night was more normal. i didnt understand any of it nor did i ever take drugs or alcohol.

then finally 10 years later (2.5 years ago), during a bout of unemployment i went. and everything i had gone through made sense a bit. i didnt sleep much because i was giddy on some nights. it was when i felt 'free flow' of subtle sensations everywhere (is that bhanga? not sure where that fits in) other days all i could do was sleep during every break and some meditations. i also felt a lot leg pain at times. or at times, like a snake was rocking me. i stopped that rocking if i could. i felt like throwing up every time i sat next to this one girl. i later learned she was detoxing from like 6 programs. i could tell (by feeling them or their vibrations or particles) when certain people were walking down even though they were across the room and my eyes were closed. now, i normally feel these sensations during my (some) of practice and also at random times like when im on the bus (what is it with me and buses??) but its not something i can control or use. my intuition power is still present but also uncontrolled and a little annoying or distracting now as its about other people and i really need to focus on myself. it happens when i can feel i can trust people. when i feel like that i want to give and give and when that feeling of trust goes away because others have taken advantage of my nature i am left more sick (in the spleen sense). i need to use it for myself and not be so focused on other people until i am more tapped into a more lasting universal energy or giving so i dont give out or at least dont hit dark night and destroy myself.

the couple of nights i had no need for sleep convinced me that i had hit A&P. agree? disagree? thoughts? and all the misery i already told you about also retroactively told me that i was now in Dark Night, sadly. but maybe not! would love to hear what you think
thumbnail
fivebells , modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 12:04 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 12:04 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
jenni lynn:
the couple of nights i had no need for sleep convinced me that i had hit A&P. agree? disagree? thoughts? and all the misery i already told you about also retroactively told me that i was now in Dark Night, sadly. but maybe not! would love to hear what you think


Let's say you know for sure that you've had an A&P. What would you do differently?

Let's say you know for sure that you haven't had an A&P yet. What would you do differently?

It sounds like the key issue is the misery you're experiencing. For that, you need to develop concentration and tranquility so that you can dispassionately investigate the causes of the misery and abandon them. So the most important questions are probably, Are you sufficiently tranquil and concentrated? If not, do you know how to develop concentration and tranquility? If so, do you know how to investigate the misery and abandon its causes?
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 1:35 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 1:35 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
til i started reading these forum and book i didnt know what was going on. i thought a map of where i was was useful. i dont know anything more. i practice and am generally a calm and tranquil despite some of the outward turmoil. i have had enough of the suffering and want to objectively change what i am doing. its not anything more. im not sure if your questions are helping me get any further.
thumbnail
fivebells , modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 3:32 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 3:31 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
jenni lynn:
- not being able to get along with others so easily
- being dissatisfied with any work
- angry that others are so clueless or falsely happy
- envy that things come so easily to others
- frustrated with the lack of remorse in others for what they do to me
- frustrated with my lack of progress in life
- getting caught up in feelings of 'left out' or abandonment
- dont like people greeting me just for the sake of greeting
- having some premonitions or knowing things that others find amazing and i find distracting. like being drawn to a gym when my friend had fainted there. or turning my head in the direction of where my x-boyfriend would appear in a moment. it can cause problems as i lose my focus on my own issues and salvation and in the case of my x-boyfriend, he thinks i am stalking him.


jenni lynn:
im not sure if your questions are helping me get any further.


At this stage, worrying about where you are on the maps is a bit like consulting your GPS to figure out how to respond to an aggressive dog that's about to jump you while you're on the way back home from the other side of town. You'd be safe back in your home, but you need a more immediate approach. In the same way, the maps outline the path to enlightenment, and enlightenment would leave you without these miseries, but the envy, anger, dissatisfaction, etc. you're experiencing will make the path enormously more difficult.

The maps are useful, but don't give much guidance as to how to end the miseries you listed. Whether you classify your experiences as A&P or not, whether you are in the dark night or not, any Buddhist approach to ending these miseries is roughly the same. When thoughts of them arise in meditation, are you able to investigate the thoughts with tranquility, observe the craving from which they arise, and bring an end to the suffering of the moment by abandoning the craving? That's how meditating could help at this stage, by developing the skills and attitudes you need for that process.
thumbnail
Dream Walker, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 6:01 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 6:01 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
I read MCTB and from understanding the dark night stages I then knew it was a stage and didn't have to make stories around it anymore. If I was miserable I did not have to look around and "find" a reason. I got a lot out of the realization that there was meaning to my suffering.
I would read MCTB once and understand the vocabulary, concepts and stages. Then I would reread it with this new knowledge and really try to digest it. The easiest way to find out where you are on the map is to move thru it. The shifts from one stage to the next makes it easier to pinpoint where you are at. Of course it doesn't matter so much, knowing as fivebell points out, you are gonna sit on your butt and do the same thing regardless of where you are. Go to a Goenka retreat if possible as it will really get you going in your practice and it is free, just know that the info Goenka throws out there is not nearly as cohesive as MCTB.
Good luck,
~D
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 9:42 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/2/13 9:42 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
i completely understand and know what i must do: keep noting and meditating. sometimes just knowing that is not enough to go when life is falling apart.

i was losing hope and was being generally miserable that i wanted something more rational to go on which is why i posted. i wanted something to keep me going because i was feeling more angry and miserable some days right after meditating. thats why its helpful for me to know and why i posted. theres no one around me that has these intuitions or that knows of this. i was also feeling very alone and as you know my life is not going super well. my friends who were my colleagues are all making a lot more money, have already gotten married and have stables lives. they have established businesses or careers and are starting families. im happy for them. i dont see the same things making me happy in the same way and in some ways cannot do the same things as them because of my poor grades from college. thats why i reached out. i really want out of this misery and some extra umph to make me keep going.


i have done 1 goenka retreat and i have served one. i have applied for other goenka retreats and cannot go until june. i was wait listed at the others. serving was super difficult and brought out all these miseries 500x. theres really no one in that group that i can talk to either.
Brother Pussycat, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 3:51 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 3:31 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 77 Join Date: 12/21/11 Recent Posts
Here's what I do when faced with a particularly persistent piece of dukkha. It's not perfect, but it does help me.

1. Spend a bit of time objectifying the dukkha - feel out its location, texture etc. as far as this is possible.
2. Think that you don't want to feel this dukkha.
3. Now think how many people/beings may be feeling similar misery - for various causes that are ultimately unimportant.
4. Think that you don't want them to feel this dukkha either.
5. Now say to yourself something like: "May this misery/dukkha/thing (find a label that feels most liberating to you) become a fire in which the misery/dukkha/thing of all those other beings will burn." Relax as much as possible and 'accept' the dukkha you're about to change into the 'fire' that will burn the dukkha of othes.
6. Try to somehow pull off a bit of mental alchemy here - visualise the dukkha as a fire, or maybe feel this fire where you feel the dukkha (as far as that's possible for you), or if you find the image of fire too threatening, maybe loosen your shoulders and the other muscles of your body - making the dukkha more 'diffuse' and allow it to become some sort of 'field' that annihilates the dukkha of those other beings (which you imagine as you like, but I suggest abstract things like fluids or particles of some sort.)

Basically you have to work your imagination here (visual, spatial, feeling-related etc.) to support the intention of turning your dukkha into a tool of destruction for the dukkha of others.

Experiment with this. Metta to you.
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:07 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
thank you
Brother Pussycat, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:52 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:52 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 77 Join Date: 12/21/11 Recent Posts
You're welcome.

One banal-sounding yet important thing I've forgotten is physical exercise and diet. It's likely that you've thought of it already and/or your doctor is taking care of this, but just in case - I've found that slow tensing/streching exercises are great at releasing tensions from the body. It seems that misery manifests primarily as tensions in the chest, and this is a notoriously difficult area to work with. One thing I've found helpful is holding your breath; when you are finally forced to draw in a breath, the chest loosens considerably. Offer any release you get that way to the benefit of all beings.

This should help with the physical side; however, the mental side (which is another aspect of the physical side) can be subjected to the treatment I offered in my previous post as well. Next time you catch yourself thinking thoughts that cause you misery, catch them as they happen, locate them in your head (frontish,centerish, backish), feel them out, objectify them and work the alchemy on them. Be uncompromising here - do not allow those thoughts to 'rationalise' their way into becoming painful to you.
thumbnail
fivebells , modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 11:08 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 11:08 AM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
jenni lynn:
i completely understand and know what i must do: keep noting and meditating. sometimes just knowing that is not enough to go when life is falling apart.

i have done 1 goenka retreat and i have served one. i have applied for other goenka retreats and cannot go until june. i was wait listed at the others. serving was super difficult and brought out all these miseries 500x. theres really no one in that group that i can talk to either.


Goenka practice and noting are great for developing mindfulness. Now that you have developed a strong foundation of mindfulness, it might be time to use that to develop some of the other factors of awakening described by the Buddha, particularly tranquility and concentration. The meditation described in the following talk is a good way to develop these:

Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death. The most relevant instructions start at the paragraph beginning with "So now I would like to focus on how to use meditation to face these things and transcend them."

The mindfulness you've developed in your practice up to this point will stand you in good stead if you go this route, but where there's a lot of emotional disturbance and threats to the ego, it is difficult and dangerous to pursue insight with mindfulness alone. It's a bit like just having a scalpel and thinking you're ready to remove your own appendix. You could in principle, but you'd be much better off with some extra tools like anaesthetic and disinfectant.
thumbnail
Michael Cannon, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 2:17 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 2:17 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 28 Join Date: 5/16/12 Recent Posts
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here. And I'd assume you've already explored this possible diagnosis since you seem to be really proactive, but since you haven't mentioned it - at least, I don't think. (I might've missed it if you did) - I'll just throw it out there.

Bipolar. Your examples of "giddiness" sound like classic examples of mania. Like I mean straight from the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual, almost down to a t.

Again, I'd guess you've already considered that. But in the small chance you haven't, well there it is.

Doesn't change meditation from being part of the solution, as meditating helps with the some of the same neurochemicals that are effected by bipolar, but, you know, just saying.
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 8:42 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 8:42 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
Michael Cannon:

Bipolar. Your examples of "giddiness" sound like classic examples of mania. Like I mean straight from the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual, almost down to a t.



considered it but no i am not bipolar. im familiar with it as i lived in a group home as a volunteer with some folks who did struggle with it.
jenni lynn, modified 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:07 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/3/13 9:07 PM

RE: dark night and daily life and medicine

Posts: 8 Join Date: 11/7/11 Recent Posts
fivebells .:

Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death. The most relevant instructions start at the paragraph beginning with "So now I would like to focus on how to use meditation to face these things and transcend them."


reading...

Breadcrumb