Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 12:55 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 12:55 PM

Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
Hi everyone!

My background : 
- During the last 10 months I have done 3 intense Goenka Retreats 
- I have cycled through a couple of dark nights on and off retreats.
- I believe I am somewhere in the equanimity territories (effortless awareness of sensations and their anicha/anatta nature, wide perception as if I am emptiness/nothingness/awareness altogether, there is not much difference between when I am formaly meditating or and when I am just chilling )

My goal/plan :
- During my last dark night  (3 months ago) I put my studies on hold to focus on getting my self back together. I am aiming for stream entry.
- I am currently looking at different meditation centers/monasteries in South-East Asia and considering going to Asia until I get it done.


Any advice about :
- where to go
- how much I should spend in concentration VS insight
- I think I deeply understood the first and second noble truths during my last retreat and so I think I understand the path but I would like someone else to confirm what I think

would be very appreciated! 

Thanks a lot! 

Nicolas

(PS : pm me if you want to skype emoticon )
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 2:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 2:41 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
You might find a place in the retreat centers section of the website:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/category/11915
Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 4:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 4:00 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
Thanks a lot Richard!
I will read that and come back if I have any questions emoticon
Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 6:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 6:00 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
I went through the entire section on retreat centers and I also read a book on the different centers/teaching styles in Asia. What I am wondering is how much should I expect to have to work given my present stage?

I was thinking of doing a 30-45 days Samadhi at Pa Auk forest monastery followed by a 60-90 days of noting practice (at Panditarama?) is that an overkill? 

Thanks
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 6:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 6:44 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Is it possible to set time tables for these things as if you were constructing a skyscraper?  Is there much commonality in time frames between practicioners? 
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 7:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 7:06 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
There's nothing overkill about what your doing when you're talking about a practice that some have done for years in caves.

Your goal is to understand dependent arising in real time.  If you discover it quickly at home or over a long retreat, what matters is that you find it in your experience.  Stream-entry (whether you get a blip or not) is just losing the belief that there's an inherent self that is above cause and effect, and you don't believe in rites and rituals to get you to enlightenment.  After that you have a lot of work to do to decondition bad habits and develop good ones.  If thoughts are treated as sensations (because how you think triggers happy and unhappy chemicals) you can let go of them (including thoughts about Buddhism and any strategizing/analyzing).

A higher level than this is to notice that arising and passing away, or cause and effect is just more sectioning off experience into conceptual chunks.

Concentration practice is just to improve that skill so you can see dependent arising really well.  The big failure that meditators make (on or off retreat) is that they are striving with too much grasping.  You don't want to be too loose or too tight.  It's okay to really put effort into noting but it's more about labeling what you actually experience and to do it consistently and not missing any experience.  When the brain sees that everything is an experience including the attention apparatus that is witnessing then no self can be found.

Read especially about nama-rupa.

This dharma talk will point out exactly what you want to look for in actual meditative experience.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/9553/

There's a lot of detail in that talk so write it down.

When you label you're trying to find a self and only finding cause and effect.  Read the following Daniel quote:
Things happen due to conditions.

Intentions cause actions.

Sensations cause mental impressions.

Start with those. Notice them again and again and again, thousands of times, arising causally, lawfully, with conditions leading to more conditions that lead to more conditions.

It is that simple, but beyond the theory, you have to get good at seeing it in real-time, in your field of experience, in your body, in your mind, and, when you get really good at that, it is clear: intentions arise causally, lawfully, not due to some self. Mental impressions arise lawfully, causally, not due to some self. All is seen as it is, happening naturally, based on the laws of reality, not on the whims of some imagined independent entity that is somehow outside of lawful causality. This is a transformative insight.

Helpful?

Daniel
Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 8:35 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 8:35 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
That was some REALLY good technical advices! Thank you so much! I just meditated listening to the talk and went way deeper than usual.

My last insights on retreat were that as soon as sensations of thinking/desiring/wanting arise, suffering (judgement of unpleasant sensations on the body) follow. As soon as my awareness is not 100% with what is right here, right now, it creates a gap in time in which my body is reacting (sankhara) really fast.

I never thought of experiencing time as sensations... very powerfull There is a lot in that talk indeed!
I guess I should also investigate time and its pertaining characteristics ?

On my last retreat (especially after 4 days of continous, ardant and persistent awareness of the breath), I had big gimples of the causal structure of intentions, thoughts, reactions, desires and also the very fact of becoming aware. That contributed to seeing anatta in real time and increased my equanimity towards subtler sensations (especially mental sensations where I could see emotions arising causally).

I don't believe in a self anymore (conceptually speaking), but I still experience reality as "me vs external environment". The suffering brought by that distinction/separation is always in my face and I am quite tired of it, stream entry will take that away right? 

Thanks again!
Nicolas
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 9:52 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 7/12/14 9:50 PM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry (Answer)

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Nicolas:
stream entry will take that away right? 

Thanks again!
Nicolas
From the point of view of classical Stream Entry, no.  If you let go of clinging to anything (including anything like thinking or evaluating of meditative progress) over long sits and over days the senses should start fading until you get a cessation event when all experience collapses.  The sense of self is always there when there's measurement in experience.  In resting in consciousness, like a mirror reflecting reality, that mirror seems unaffected by thinking so the small self is replaced by a Big Self.  Then seeing the Big Self as a bunch of vibrations and collapse over and over again you get disenchanted with clinging even to consciousness.  As you progress (wean yourself) through the paths the sense of a self should become less and less.  You still experience reality and perceptions but you see how built up it is and how it can breakdown because of how impermanent and empty experience is.

There are so many models of these stages that one has to ultimately see for themselves.  Having an aversion to a sense of self is just another aversion so I would avoid that subtle trap.  Sometimes acting as a self can be used in daily life in skillful ways.  Personally I would just look at what you react to and learn to relax the reactivity again and again so your equanimity increases because even if you don't get stream-entry you'll benefit a lot by tolerating more and more.  Many meditators take for granted how much they've improved over time and have trouble enjoying their current skills.

By staying mindful of the mental stories and watch them pass away on their own should help you disidentify with the small self and then identify with the "watcher".  Noticing how the watcher is dependent on objects over and over again by being mindful of nama-rupa should help to break down the Big Self into it's components:
Nama-rupa: depends on consciousness.  Consciousness depends on Nama-rupa.

Nama-rupa: Nama – Perception, vedana, attention, intention, contact.  Rupa – ancient 4 elements.

Attention: The mind’s movement of attention to a perception/object/experience feels similar to the push and pull of craving/aversion.

Attention: Consciousness + intention directed at this or that whether we are aware of it or not.

Push and pull depends on object and vice versa.
The sense of an object for consciousness depends on attention.  It could be deliberate or not deliberate.  Attention needs objects.

Looking at physics should help you understand that everything is broken down into sub-atomic particles (that we know of) and probably can be divided into something smaller, and certainly all of this is smaller than nama-rupa.  It's all interdependent.  The perception faculties of the brain purposefully simplify experience into cookie-cutter objects that supposedly feel separate and not connected for survival purposes.  We go after objects to like or dislike for evolutionary survival purposes.  To see through that is to see another perspective that reminds us of impermanence of life and to try and make our purposes with that in mind instead of just producing and consuming experiences.  To feel less separate should deal with loneliness better than chasing people or other objects to get temporary satisfaction.

All objects are conditioned on prior causes and when adding more detail to the analysis it should be hard to notice the separation.  A tree is distinct on the horizon but it needs sun, CO2, water, fertile soil to exist so it's truely not separate.

Kenneth Folk's stages of enlightenment:

http://jaytek.net/KFD/KFDForum/page/A%2B9%2BStage%2BMap%2Bof%2BDevelopmental%2BEnlightenmenthtml.html

10 fetters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)#Sutta_Pitaka.27s_list_of_ten_fetters

Hurricane Ranch Parts 1-3

http://integrateddaniel.info/podcasts-and-videos/

If you want to look at time further:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/11929/

Oh and here's a timely post today reminding of how time appears when we search for it:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5354465#_19_message_5336055

Good luck!
Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 9:48 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 9:48 AM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
Thank you again Richard, I kept practicing what you told me, went to serve on a 10-day Goenka course and I am pretty sure I got stream entry emoticon
It's been a week now since I suddendly started seeing things "as they are" with a background of sympathatic joy and humor. Effortless awareness most of the time. Pain, sorrow, neurotic stuff etc. are still there, but somewhere deep down a big part of my "judment mechanism" is gone so I naturally accept things as they are for what there are. Don't know if it was stream entry, not exciting as I was expecting it to be, way more real and practical than I thought. 

Anyhow, thanks for your help!
Nicolas
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 10:51 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 10:51 AM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Congrats! If it's not stream entry it's probably equanimity.  I do remember when my self-referencing was massively attenuated.  I was walking down the street and thinking about difficult life stuff and I noticed that the self-referencing was completely gone.  The brain finally clued in that self-judgment and bashing is useless and discarded it.  I'm sure it was memorable for you as well.  

The problem with stream-entry is that some people don't notice it but do notice large improvements.  The focus should be on whether greed, hatred and delusion are reduced.  The classic prescription is if you don't believe in rites and rituals, you don't doubt the Buddha, and you don't believe in a permanent self anymore.  This has to be convincing to you in actual experience.  If it is then it is stream-entry.  It's very important that you don't cling to a consciousness in some "location" and develop aversion to thoughts.  Thoughts should be integrated.

You'll still have old habits but now you can continue to decondition them.  Keep relaxing the push and pull of desire and aversion and enjoy the relief.  A lot of advice I gave you is more along the direct path method.  To continue forward I think you'll like the book review I did recently.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5572057
I especially like the reminder that everything is letting go already.

Keep refining the views and learning more about the middle path with Nagarjuna.  As long as you hold to extreme views like a permanent "is" for "things" or a "is not" (nihilism) there will still be lots of clinging.  Any measurement can have some subtle self-referencing.

Good luck for your future practice!
Nicolas, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 11:33 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 11:33 AM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/7/14 Recent Posts
Awesome thanks! I ll have a look at that! I really resonated with  Chogyam Trungpa in his book "Cutting though spiritual materialism", he speaks of the narrow path and of the open path, what do you think about these? 

The delusions have diminished tremendously and there is a kind of loving-kindness lightness feel to most experience. Not seeing thoughts as "bad" but as a side effects of being alive was a major breakthrough and I feel like this understanding is getting more and more integrated. As of believing in the Buddha, I don't really know what that means, I surely believe in this moment as it is and the peace that comes from surrendering to the whole experience of each moment.

I plane tickets for Asia are bought but not I don't feel like noting like crazy. I feel like integrating this new perspective to my life situation and learning to open to each moment. So, I was thinking of trying to enjoy my self in Asia and maybe stop by at Pa-Auk to do some concentration work.

Thanks,
Nicolas
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 11:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 11:43 AM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I haven't read the book.  For stream-entry look at the first 3 fetters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)

Sorry the link is a fucked up. emoticon

  • belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
  • doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)
  • attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)
Small Steps, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 12:04 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 11:58 AM

RE: Taking a year off to attain stream entry

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Richard Zen:
I do remember when my self-referencing was massively attenuated.  I was walking down the street and thinking about difficult life stuff and I noticed that the self-referencing was completely gone.  The brain finally clued in that self-judgment and bashing is useless and discarded it.  I'm sure it was memorable for you as well.  

This was one of the biggest benefits to come out of practice for me. Self-judgment feels like it's largely a thing of the past. It took me a while to notice this, but it was one hell of a revelation, given how things have been for a large part of life. External judgments continue though, so it's a daily reminder of how much work is left to do.

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