Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

Jack Hatfield, modified 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 1:12 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/26/14 1:12 PM

Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

Posts: 98 Join Date: 7/5/10 Recent Posts
I have been trying binary noting using non self- referential thought and self-referential thought without success. For instance, a memory arises of me at a certain time in my life. It is about me but I am not embedded in the thought. It seems it happened to someone else. The thought is the same kind as a thought of a thunderstorm several days ago. That  thought didn't have any me in it either.

Anyone try this? How do you distinguish the two?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/27/14 11:04 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/27/14 11:04 AM

RE: Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

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Jack Hatfield, modified 9 Years ago at 8/30/14 5:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/30/14 5:08 AM

RE: Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

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Richard, thanks for the reference. It seems to assume I can already tell the difference between a non self-referential and self-referential thought which I have trouble doing. Can you shed some light on this for me?

By the way, I have found your posts very useful in the past. Thanks for posting.
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/30/14 2:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/30/14 1:50 PM

RE: Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

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I don't think it assumes anything.  It's about breaking down the "me-ness" into what it actually is and then seeing it fall away on it's own. Thinking about yourself needs to be seen for what it is in real time.  It's just thinking. Wanting something is "wanting".  It's important to notice how habitual these things are so trying to forcibly remove them is a temporary relief.  It's more relief to welcome habitual impulses (to avoid a layer of stress) and to be mindful enough to wait for them to naturally pass away (another layer passing away naturally).  Letting go of holding preferences tightly should bring relief.  Clinging/rumination is the stress. I would even recommend letting go of all clinging (including clinging to meditation states, Buddhist concepts).  Just let go and even let go of the concept of a watcher which is just more subtle thinking.  Realise that everything is cause and effect and is letting go on it's own so "letting go" doesn't become a watcher forcibly blocking thinking.  Letting go is best when disenchantment happens on it's own.  Just see things ebbing and flowing because they always were.  It's the conceptual part of the mind that wants to tense up and solidify for survival reasons.

It's seeing that thought isn't a permanent thing and is caused by conditions (stimulus that triggers a response) and the habitual reaction. Disenchantment comes from seeing these things happen over and over again that you lose addictiveness/fixation/rumination/obsession towards them.  This is more portable than temporary concentration states and you can take with you wherever you go.  You want to get to the point where you've seen everything in the 4 foundations of mindfulness arise and pass away.  If you're disenchanted with all the 4 foundations of mindfulness then you're probably not clinging to anything so there should be big relief.

The final step after that is bringing this portable relief to work and actions so that you don't just lay around doing nothing but can follow more long-term higher values in your goals.  When clinging happens just look for what it's built up of.  That looking should be enough for letting go to happen on it's own.  This is why consistent mindfulness is needed throughout the day but one that is less draconian pushing thoughts away.  You want one that is light and seeing things just as they are.  

Seeing a documentary like the BBC Wonders of Life can give you more insight into how all things aren't inherently real but perceptions of objects that are built up of smaller particles.  Reacting with grasping/clinging/ruminating/fixation/obession towards these impermanent things is futile.  Let that insight seep in via meditation and watching the 3 characteristics.  In science there is the 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that all order eventually goes into disorder.  Our eating and procreating delay the inevitable but everything in the universe (including stars) will go into entropy/disorder like a sand castle turning into a small dune of sand particles.  Over trillions of years even these small particles breakdown into something smaller.  This allows for evolution and complexity to arise so there's still lots to appreciate but you'll appreciate them with less grasping. 

Make sense?  Watching experiences disappear without trying to make them disappear.
Jack Hatfield, modified 9 Years ago at 8/31/14 12:01 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/31/14 12:01 PM

RE: Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

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I think I was trying to make something more complicated than it was. If I am disembedded from anthing that arises including consciousness or a witness, than there is no self-referential thought. To use my example from my post, a thought of a scene from my childhood is not self-referential if  I objectify it.

Gary Weber says 90% of our thoughts are self-referential. Get rid of those (objectify them) and we have a quiet mind, he says. But, not necessarily, if I understand corredtly. I could have lots of phenomena arise and pass away and a very busy mind even though I have objectified each one..Right?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/31/14 1:26 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/31/14 1:26 PM

RE: Binary Noting-Self-referential thought

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Clinging creates programming/conditioning so that what you think on repeatedly becomes a habit (especially if you have been doing the same thing for decades) so you will have those tendencies come back but they weaken and lose their conditioning because when you note you're not clinging to it.  You are also getting disenchanted with these tendencies because they are so repeititve and useless. By paying attention the brain can't go into a rumination.  It's like you're trying to forget the bad habits no different than how you forgot other habits in the past. This is why it's a gradual process and even masters can sleep with their students, continue taking drugs or pursue alcoholism if they don't let go enough.  Even a weakned habit can wreak havoc on your choices and actions.  It's about vigilance and consistency.  The brain needs constant reminding because it likes to hold out hope for clinging to give what it wants.

When you see those impulses arise and pass away the brain learns there is freedom if you wait for it and don't take any actions on the impulse. Then you have to cultivate new habits by making resolutions and pushing intentions in the correct direction according to your deep values. So keep welcoming the old habits (because repressing impulses doesn't work) and then not clinging or acting on those impulses.  Let anger and negativity arise but let it fade naturally. The noting shouldn't be blocking or repressing experiences.  It's just to label what's there so there is recognition of those patterns and the brain can learn what those patterns are doing to you.
Jack Hatfield, modified 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 9:33 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 9:32 AM

Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

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I posted the below note over 2 years ago on this list. Selfing and self-referential thought has been an interest of mine for the last 3 years. Rob Burbea mentions the process of selefing a lot in this book. Shinzen Young has a guided meditation in his 10 CD The Science of Enlightenment. (I can send this guided meditation to anyone who wants it.) I have done a 3-5 minute binary meditation on embedded/not embedded every day as part of my drill routine for the last 2 years. 

I have done Shinzen's guided meditation 3 times and am having trouble with it. Anyone else have this interest? I would be interested in your experience.

Jack Hatfield:
I have been trying binary noting using non self- referential thought and self-referential thought without success. For instance, a memory arises of me at a certain time in my life. It is about me but I am not embedded in the thought. It seems it happened to someone else. The thought is the same kind as a thought of a thunderstorm several days ago. That  thought didn't have any me in it either.

Anyone try this? How do you distinguish the two?
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elizabeth, modified 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 3:02 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 2:44 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 76 Join Date: 5/10/14 Recent Posts
Jack

I’ve listened to one of Shinzen's meditations about thought which I think is from that series. Is it the one where he is suggesting you note talk, image etc? I haven’t worked with that meditation but I’ve worked with something similar on my own.

There is a good write up of his older labels  on his website but I've attached it since his website seems to be in flux and I can't make the link work.

The detail about thinking (e.g. Quiet, Talk, Image, Subte is helpful for me and seems more useful than thinking not thinking.

When I’ve worked with it, I’m not trying to discriminate between types of thinking (self referential or not) just noticing (with or without verbal labels) whether there is any internal thinking (talk, image, subtle, quiet). It doesn’t matter what the content is. E.g. any internal words are talk. I think the idea is just to notice and observe.

Shinzen has lots of options for his techniques. I think he was also working about with direction and distance with sound in that meditation. That may be helpful or not. (He seems to stress try things but that they are optional and do what works). Sometimes I just stick with the basics.

But I also enjoy working with that sort of thing. In the moments where there isn’t talk (quiet) and there isn’t external noise (silence),Trying to sense if quiet or silence seem more prominent or if there is a sense of space to them. Does the silence contain the quiet or the other way around?
Jack Hatfield, modified 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 8:38 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 8:38 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

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Elizabeth, it is not the guided meditation on thinking. This one is called Clarifying the Self. You can download it at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80750122/Clarifying%20the%20Self%20%20GM.mp3

I don't understand how you are using the words "quiet" and "silence". To me they are the same. Stillness, on the other hand, is different. Stillness can occur when you are aware of sounds, an itch, etc.Also, in a sense, I can hear a sound which contains silence within it. Silence/quietness/stillness pervades the sound.
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elizabeth, modified 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 9:20 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/17/16 9:05 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 76 Join Date: 5/10/14 Recent Posts
On the terminology it is from a specific set of labels Shizen has described (see the document I attached)  
silence for lack of external noise.  Quiet for lack of internal talking. 
So there can be no noise outside of me but lots of verbal thoughts.   Or no verbal thoughts but lots of external noise. Or none of either.

I will listen to the audio and get back to you on that.
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elizabeth, modified 7 Years ago at 10/18/16 7:46 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/18/16 7:46 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 76 Join Date: 5/10/14 Recent Posts
Jack Hatfield:

I have done Shinzen's guided meditation 3 times and am having trouble with it. Anyone else have this interest? I would be interested in your experience.



I hadn’t done this one. Thanks for suggesting it.  I've listened to most of it and sort of worked along with it while doing  then tried those labels througout the day. But I haven't really had time to do the meditation yet. 

First impressions: I’ve only done a few of Shinzen’s meditations but the general pattern seems to be defining the set of experiences to pay attention to – in this case the six sense doorways including thought. Then defining how to divide up what is experienced moment to moment into a set of things to notice / label - in this case your sense of self and other Noting self other and both (if they are simultaneous). He does say there are not absolutes in defining these categories. This one isn’t at all intuitive for me. I can make up a line between self and other and use it. But I’m not sure what the point is except perhaps to develop equanimity with both not knowing and disorientation.  But I'm intrigued enough to work with it a bit more.

Can you say anything more about your experience with the meditation? why are you drawn to this one? and what kind of trouble hare you having.
Jack Hatfield, modified 7 Years ago at 10/19/16 2:39 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/19/16 2:39 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 98 Join Date: 7/5/10 Recent Posts
Why selfing interests me: I think all my conditioning, hang-ups, stress, and suffering lies within my self sense/self-referencing thoughts. Freedom from selfing brings peace. (This does not mean destroying the self. Just being not controlled by it.) Zen and Taoist sayings stress this freedom from the self. For instance, sayings like, the perfect person does nothing but it all gets done. The perfect person leaves no tracks in the forest. Another way of saying it is that conditioning and hang-ups in the sense of self creates friction that hinders or prevents freedom and causes suffering.

As an adjunct to my regular meditation practice, every day I run through 7-8 different types of meditation with 3-5 minutes for each. One of which is a binary meditation with embedded/not embedded. Not embedded might equate to or probably more precisely be a subset of selfing. I have been doing this for a year or two and it works well.
 
Shinzen seems to use a wider definition of sense of self than I am used to. If the source of phenomena is “outside” of me such as a sound or sight, it is not self related if I understand him correctly. If it originates “inside” me such as a thought or feeling, it has a sense of self. To me, I could have a feeling of anger, for example, and it might not have a sense of self if I am not embedded in it. Also, something that originates outside of me such as a dog barking might have a strong sense of self within.
 
I think my problem is adjusting to Shinzen’s terminology. I am going to try his guided meditation several  more times to see if it is worth my while to do this.
 
 
 
 
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elizabeth, modified 7 Years ago at 10/19/16 7:35 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/19/16 7:33 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 76 Join Date: 5/10/14 Recent Posts
Thoughts and times without them have been part of my practice. Without thought self is … different. But in many ways my journey has been less about getting rid of thought and more about developing a sense of equanimity with thoughts – it is ok if they are there - ok if they are not. 

It is an ongoing process but things that have helped are seeing and dropping many of my stories. Also really looking at individual thoughts and whether I believe them. My thoughts are much less of a problem when they have less ‘weight’ and ‘belief’.

As far as technique what really started this was MCTB - doing it not just reading. Then I found Adyashanti as part of my search to understand some of what I was experiencing. Adya's discussions of thought / no thought and self / no self have been really helpful and I use his meditation techniques on awareness and inquiry. I more recently started listening and reading Shinzen. I like his thought focused labels and will likely continue to use them at times. At the moment I am also back to MCTB with a renewed interest in really basic sensate clarity.
Jack Hatfield, modified 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 10:38 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 10:38 AM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 98 Join Date: 7/5/10 Recent Posts
Elizabeth,

My main practice is just sitting/do nothing/shikantaza. Adya is one of my favorites and have several books and YouTube talks by him. I have not found anything from him on awareness meditation techniques. Can you point me in the right direction?

jack
Jack Hatfield, modified 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 2:19 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 2:19 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 98 Join Date: 7/5/10 Recent Posts
Here is my favorite Adya teaching:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fjxAZ5ogGM.

A woman goes to him saying she wants to wake up. 2 1/2 minutes long.
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elizabeth, modified 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 8:31 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/21/16 8:28 PM

RE: Selfing, Rob Burbea and Shinzen

Posts: 76 Join Date: 5/10/14 Recent Posts
Jack Hatfield:
Elizabeth,

My main practice is just sitting/do nothing/shikantaza. Adya is one of my favorites and have several books and YouTube talks by him. I have not found anything from him on awareness meditation techniques. Can you point me in the right direction?

jack


Hi Jack
Not sure where to start but ...
This is the meditation instruction that is handed out for Adya’s retreats.

His book True Mediation has a fair amount of detail and guided meditations that go with it are available from Sounds True.

As far as guided meditations.

Here is one on youtube it is more about just sitting than explicitly about awareness

There is a much wider range available through Café Dharma on his website. The guided meditations from retreats are bundled separately from that talks and dialogues so you can just buy them. If you select one and click for more info, most list the meditation titles so you can get a general idea of what the meditations are about.

I was at Tahoe 2016 and Kanuga 2016 – so can definitely recommend those

thanks for the link to the video.  I love to 'follow along' when he points.  That one is wonderful.

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