Is Jhana attainable without deep concentration?

The Mahanama sutta describes a meditation excercise that doesn't resemble concentration practice very much but is still said to lead to piti, sukha and samadhi (which in the suttas mostly means the four Jhanas).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.013.than.html#fnt-1

Does anyone know how to practice this kind of reflective meditation so that it induces piti and sukha as described in this sutta? How would you pull it off in practice? Just chant/think the prescribed words or some variant over and over again until there is piti, then focus on that? 

this teachers i've spoken with over the last year put absorption as a rather high and almost unobtainable goal.  Ajahn Brahm is one of the few who believes in these "hard" jhanas, and mentions a friend waking up in the hospital and wondering how he got there - his wife called an ambulance while he was in absorption.  The post on easy access to the hard jhanas (absorption) looks to be a hoax

I have acheived what i consider to be first jhana without absorption.  For me, It's a nice feeling of a ball of light moving through my body.  But at the same time i've also been aware of other feelings in the body and outside sounds, for example. 

I would also say that i've also acheived Jhana with stronger absorption.  For example, the morning after a metta retreat last August, i lay in bed for an hour or more as balls fire (intense concentration) moved through me.  But i was at my mother's place and aware that she was awake downstairs.

hope that helps

Cool, the ball is probably a nimitta if I get Akahn Brahm right. If so, you should let it become still and be mindfull of it until it takes you out of the five senses into a hard-ass first Jhana.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.htm

But the Mahanama sutta I linked to really challenges my idea about what Jhana is. Normally the instructions for entering Jhana are something like: "focus on X continously for a long time (and when it gets really pleasant focus on that too/instead)". But in the Mahanama sutta the Buddha basicly says:

"Think about how awesome I/the Dhamma/the Sangha/your virtues/the gods are. That's going to induce pleasure which is going tp take you to Jhana". That doesn't sound like cobcentration practice! Have I misunderstood the instruction? Or do the suttas use a different definition of Jhana than is normally used by meditators today? Does anyone here have any experience in practicing like that? Maybe it's a bit like tibetan diety yoga?

Jhana practice requires us to block our hindrances, notably Doubt (in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha), Sensual Desire, Restlessness.  We need contentment, energy, faith and concentration.

I repasted and looked at this reading. it seems to be reflection with the purpose of instilling those positive factors while avoiding the unwanted ones.

best  

Yes, I also reread it and saw that the practitioner of the method presented is excpected to have attained Jhanas before, which might explain why just reflecting on the awesomeness of the Buddha is enough to create piti.

I have two thoughts, from an amatuer perspective:
1) The qualities described in the sutra, some of which can be found in various Buddhist lists (the 'Wings to Awakening') such as the 7 factors of enlightenment and the 5 spiritual faculties, are meant to not only be developed on the cushion, but to take root in the mind so that it influences one's actions and thoughts in daily life.  So, when the Buddha reccomends contemplating these things while in daily life, he is speaking about the integration process, not the fully absorbed one that takes place on the cushion.
2) I have noticed, in my own experience, different versions of jhana.  For instance, I can 'call up' soft jhanas just by asking my mind for them.  If I have been doing deep breathing for a few days, and doing soft jhana for a few days, this calling up process can develop into medium-strength jhanas that are pretty impressive.  However, the times when I have felt the hard jhanas have been when I have sat for long periods with a forced concentration technique (I usually have to deal with a lot of emotional resistance as well as Dukkha nana vibration in this effort)... eventually the body enters into a deep relaxation response which is very overpowering and feels out of my control (unlike the calling up exercise).  I also think one could have deep relaxation without jhana.  So, I'm sort of confused, personally.

p.s. the deep relaxation/hard jhanas seems to be healing and have a therapuetic afterglow... the soft to medium strength jhanas do not.

Cool. Did you get the ability to call up soft Jhanas at will after MCTB SE? Do you ever get visions of light as described by Ajahn Brahm (who calls then nimittas) and a few suttas (which don't call them nimittas, just lights and forms).

-Yes, after 1st path.
-No, I don't get visual phenomenon, unfortunately (seems nice)

Hi Noah. I think in another thread you write about getting 'hard jhanas,' which I always thought were the Visuddhimagga-style, concentrate on the object until the nimitta arises, stabilizes then becomes the entry way into first jhana. Now I realize I have no reference point to what you mean when you write about soft and hard jhanas. Can you elaborate?

Hi Small Steps.  Those are just convenient designators for my own experience.  I don't mean to impy that they apply to everyone.  

Soft jhanas are what I get into by thinking of them/asking for them.  Getting in and out is under my control.  I don't need a repetitive, narrow, concentration technique to get into them.  They are easy to identify because I'm not fully embedded.  I can have a lot of mental talk and still be in them. 

Hards jhanas occur by chance or by grace.  I work really hard with sustained focus and feel an overwhelming energy take over after some time.  I couldn't fully get out of this state even if I wanted to.  Many times they won't occur even if I do purposeful samatha.  Its hard to distinguish between various jhanas because I am so into the experience.  Hard jhana doesn't happen until mental talk relaxes its grip.

p.s. I have noticed different versions of the same nana which might be called hard and soft.

How do your five senses work during your version of hard Jhanas? If you can perceive anything with them, the state sounds like a more absorbed version of the "beautiful breath" state that comes before the rise of the nimitta that precedes Ajahn Brahms definition of Jhana. When the nimitta arises one doesn't perceive anything with one's 5 senses anymore.

@Pawel
If I understand you correctly, that's kind of what I suspected. The suttas never seem to give the example of a monk who is so focused on something that piti+sukha arises, but rathather it's piti+sukha that leads to Jhana and one-pointedness. The factors probably cam come up in a lot of different orders I guess.

I have many memories of what I would call 'hard jhana' in which my five sense doors are totally dissassociated and also way turned down.  

At a rinzai zen group I remember floating on the cieling without a body for 20 minutes or more.  Under the Shakitpat gaze of AYP teacher Stuart Perrin I once felt that my chair was rising three feet off the ground, tilting back 45 degrees and that he had transformed into a witch in front of me (and was buffetting me with a 90mph wind).  

I am confident that these experiences correspond to the jhanas as described in the Pali Canon (floating would be 2nd because of the joy, the witch would be 3rd by the cold but rapturous qualities of it which I now realize also had dark night vibrations).

My five sense weren't really working at all during these two experiences.  However, this language should be used lightly, as the only way a human ever experiences anything is through the five senses (Shinzen has even narrowed it down to "see-hear-feel", "in-out-flow-rest-all-none").
_______

I realize now that I am familiar with Ajahn Brahm's way of classifying the stages of jhana.  The progress he describes is based very specifically on attempting to calm and stabilize the mind on one, limited thing for long periods of time.  This is very Theravadin.

However, one can also have hard jhana through powerful energetic experiences, which might arise through another person's shakti, or through an intrapersonal active visualization, neither of which would perfectly graft onto Brahm's line of thinking.  

IMHO jhanas are just levels of mind whose intensity can very depending on the specific practice and practitioner at a given time (across traditions, techniques, and conceptual frameworks).  This change in intensity is what I mean by 'hard' and 'soft'.

But there is the sixth sense, right? 

The transmiting teacher turning into a witch sounds like what AB probably would call a "useless nimitta". Such nimittas, in the form of a detailed vision, can according to him come up before the useful nimitta, which is stable, still, clear, bright and featureless, if I get him right. Absorbtion in that nimitta is what takes one into his definition of Jhana.

Maybe what you consider to be Jhana is more in line with the suttas (although a few suttas mention light phenomena occuring before Jhana). But I'm thinking that I'd rather get too hard Jhanas than too soft, so I think I'll continue trying to get AB-style Jhana

Btw, do you recommend Shaktipat? What does it do? I've been curious about it and thinking about seeking up someone who can give it, but then I've been warned not to actively try to awaken the Kundalini. 

And what is the rinzai zen approach to attaining altered states? Don't they consider Jhanas to be makyo? 

Okay, so I suspect what AB is talking about is a really, really strong and pure form of jhana that I simply haven't experienced.  My jhanic experience is probably akin to the way I practiced mindfulness meditation before reading MCTB.

I highly reccomend shaktipat.  Shaktipat is basically a catalyst for the progress of insight.  Whatever stage you're in, it will make you cycle faster.  There is also a definite way that shaktipat favors a&p like effects.  Here are teachers/resources for shakitpat:  http://www.stuartperrin.com/centers/ , http://www.brucerubin-class.com/Schedule.aspx , http://www.themovementcenter.com/ , or just google 'kundalini yoga in my area'.

I also highly reccomend actively trying to awaken kundalini.  

Both of these things need to be balanced with intentional grounding, i.e. diaphragmatic breathing, keeping the mind in the 3rd chakra, chi-gung exercises such as sustained horse stance or lower dan-tien stirring, grounding visualization, etc.  

The Rinzai approach is to practice diaphragmatic breathing with a count on the exhale until one can reach access concentration and then 1st jhana regularly.  At this point you are given a koan and you work with it until you achieve some wierd/irrational/energetic effect that you report in a formal teacher interview.  They do consider jhana to be makyo, which is really stupid, because the only way a zen student attains a path is by traversing the jhanic territory.  For proof of this, read the rinzai zen accounts of enlightenment in the book "Three Pillars of Zen".

Thanks for the info! So shaktipat I've heard, raises the kundalini or at least activates it. I think I read in MCTB that Kundalini awakening=A&P. Does this mean that whatever stage I'm at I'll get an A&P? 

Now I'm a little more inclined to try it! It's just that I'm not sure whether I really want nana cycling. Daniel said in an ancient thread that I probably was cycling already so maybe I should just speed up the process. And MCTB SE seems to enhance one's Jhanability, and that would be awesome  
But on the other hand, I read Chuck Kasmire's thread where he doesn't mention DN:s but does mention progress in, even completion of, the ten fetter path! That's quite the reverse from the accounts I've read from MCTB Arahants, and much more in line with the suttas. Suttaic SE is what I want. And I think If I DN:ed that would be really brutal since if kamma is real my kamma sucks, and I heard from a pretty advanced gnostic that the brutality of the DN (in his tradition there is only one, so maybe their model ends at SE, I don't know) depends a lot on one's karmic constitution. 
And once you're past A&P, or SE, you're stuck in the cycles, right? That kind of puts me off :/

TL;DR: Shaktipat or not, still a very hard choice  

Btw, sorry if this is question is too personal, but has nana cycle progress helped you cut any of the ten fetters? 

Il Matto Writes:
Okay, so I suspect what AB is talking about is a really, really strong and pure form of jhana that I simply haven't experienced.  My jhanic experience is probably akin to the way I practiced mindfulness meditation before reading MCTB.

If I'm not mistaken Ajahn Brahm's instructions hew more closely to the Visuddhimagga prescriptions for jhana. This is what I translate internally to 'hard jhana,' thus resulting in some confusion when I read about others' soft and hard jhana experiences. Most notably, Pa Auk Sayadaw seems to be the lead proponent of the commentarial methods and several of his western students have written books on the practice (Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder*, and Shaila Catherine).

While I think the Visuddhimagga sets a very high bar for jhana, the benefit is that it does set a standard. If you've ever wondered if you've experienced first jhana, you can contrast your experience to what's written about and see for yourself.

* Many of Rasmussen and Snyder's talks are listed here. I've found they basically cover the material in their book, which is said to provide a very good overview of the Sayadaw's methods.

edited to add link

Shaktipat is designed to expand your cutting edge within your current cycle.  So, what will happen during shaktipat depends on what nana you are in in the given minute amount of time it occurs.  For instance, you might meditate alone in the morning, cycle up to your cutting edge of dissolution, and then cycle back down in daily life.  Later in the same day, you might go to an evening kundalini yoga/shaktipat class in which you start again at the first nana but then rapidly cycle back up to fifth in the presence of the energy.  The goal, or significant factor, is whether or not you then get deeper into dissolution and early fear than you would have without the external shakti.  

Nana cycling and jhana cycling are the same train on the same train track.  It all depends on what side of the car you are looking out of to determine what you see.  It is unlikely that you will experience permanent baseline shifts without passing through the post-8th junction point at least once (see Daniel's mind map ).  

If you wish to avoid the dark night, but still want 'enlightenment', then figure how to get from 3rd jhana to 4th jhana in a stable, continuous manner.   Then figure how to disembed from within fourth jhana without cycling back down into DN territory (unstable sections between 3rd and 4th).  My teacher doesn't seem to think this is easy or even possible.  I tend to agree.  But at the same time, there are tons of people in other traditions who don't talk about a section of the path that is distinctly shitty.  I would guess that they are moving right from 3rd to 4th in these cases.

I think many people who are post-4th path would say that the cycles don't really bother them.  That might be a motivating point for you.

Nana progress leads to path attainments.  Path attainments (the 1st 3) have helped me cut off the beginning fetters, namely [1] belief in a self (the best self-definition I have now is that 'I' am my entire sense field at a given time, which includes my inner mind and outer reality as one big chamber... 'I' am also connected to whatever is generating this sentience), [2] doubt about the teachings (I am certain that this stuff works), and [3] attachment to rituals (in a spiritual-practice-sense, I am not as into dogma, books, symbols, 2-dimensional/oversimplistic definitons, spiritual champions, etc. ...  in a conventional-life-sense, I am much more likely to calmly doubt my usual way of doing things- its easier to take a step back).

After 3rd path, I am not even closing to cutting off fetters [4] sensual desire, and [5] ill will off (much less 6 through 10).  I am still crippled by bipolar disorder and general phobic thought and emotional patterns.  My plan is to get 4th path and then practice AF after that and see if any of this will be enough.

How do you mean you're certain that this stuff works? Works for what?

I personally want something that increases wisdom, decreases suffering and, maybe most of all, saves me from rebirth in lower realm. Jhanas would be nice too. I wonder if MCTB paths are necessary for attaining Sutta Path (cutting fetters). They seem to at least help in that process, so if the cost is not too high (but maybe it is :/ ) I could give it a concious try. Nowadays I mostly try to do samathaish practice. 

Thanks for the link!
An interesting thing about the Jhanas on Daniel's map is that he places powers after 8th Jhana. The suttas place them after 4th. This either confirms the idea that Jhanas 5-8 are aspects of fourth or, as Ajahn Brahm implies, Sutta style Jhanas are much stronger than we think. 

About the DN (And maybe I should make another thread on this, what do you think?): The Gnostic and Rosicrucian traditions speak of THE Dark Night. They also mention cycling, and shorter periods of darkness, which I think is the MCTB DN:s, but THE Dark Night of the Soul is much more hard core if I get them right. It's a process by which you burn off all of your karma, which leads to terrible syncronicities, like the practicioner getting hit by a car, relationships destroyed etc. 
An article about their DN: http://www.rosae-crucis.net/death.htm
where do you think this fits on the map? What relationship could it have to the Jhanas and nanas? 

Then there are the traditions that don't mention DN:s at all, like I think most Thai forest traditions. Instead they have hardcore Jhanas I guess. WAIT AJAHN BRAHM MENTIONS FEAR HERE  http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.htm
He says it's an obstacle to be overcome before first Jhana.

Sorry for the massive input, I'd love if you or any other advanced practitioner would take a look at these things and share their thoughts

For me, works means that I have less agitation, less obsessive thought, more insight into all levels of cause and effect, more clarity in my self-reflection, more sense of certainty as to what to do next on this path of mine, more automatic relaxation and ability to amplify relaxation on a whim through deep breathing (this didn't work for me before).

I think MCTB paths are necessary, but not sufficient, compenents of suttra paths.  What I mean is that Suttra paths come from changes in habit and lifestyle, conceptual framework, thought-patterns, emotional-patterns, etc.  Technical path moments amplify the clarity and completeness of the sensory field to the utmost degree.  The skillful actions one completes within that sensory field (with the help of increased clarity) will fabricate an existence that is relatively free of the fetters.

I would say the two models (one places formless realms and powers after 4th jhana and the other places formless realms and powers within 4th jhana) are actually saying the same thing, which is that there is a specific and deep territory of the psyche and energetic system in which these things occur.  I'm sure there are technical adjustments I have failed to make in some of my deeper jhanic experiences that would have made them more pure/sattvic, stronger, more impactful to my well-being, etc.  I think these technical adjustments to maximize the effects of jhana are what is being talked about as really strong jhanas in the Vissudhamagha as well as the sutras.

Imho, any discussion of dark night effects is about the territory between nanas 5 and 11 on the map, regardless of the tradition.  I think the dark night is very dramatic at first (which is the perspective from which the Christian mystics are commenting on), but when one masters the territory it just becomes subtle vibrations that occur during various parts of a sit.  Things like synchronicities, powers, shakti, etc. occur more when one has faith that they exist and when one spends a bulk of his/her contemplative attention on them.  This would explain why us DHO'ers are getting highly realized without necessarily have psychic powers or experiencing dramtic synchronicity.

Thanks! I thought that maybe the MCTB DN:s are the Apophis phases mentioned in the article and their brutal DN is a tradition specific fast route to karmic purity. If they didn't have to have the synchronisities, that's just really sad, I know people who have had all sorts of terrible accidents within their gnostic DN:s. I guess I'll get powers from the Jhanas then, since I've read too many suttas about them.

What kind of work do you think is needed asided from meditating to attain the mind blips, in order to cut fetters? Reflexion, morality? 

I really can't say anything about the gnostic tradition or the apophis phase since I haven't practiced it.  I just want to emphasize that, in general, traditions roughly correspond to each other, as there is one model for the homo sapien mind and brain on a bare-bones level.

The work that is needed is whatever makes the meditation work.  If improving diet or celibacy were to improve concentration, placebo or fact, that would be worth it.  I think if anyone noted relentlessly for enough hours every day, without worrying about quality (that is my approach- quantity over quality), then they would make progress, regardless if they had shitty morals and no absorption.

My advice is based on less than three years of hardcore meditation, below 4th path perspective, and general poor levels of integration with daily life thus far.  

Maybe quantity noting like that would work w/o absorbtion, I just don't get how. What effect would it have on the five hindrances? And if they fade, then how can there not be at least upacara samadhi? This question is based on the suttas, not that much experience yet unfortunately (working on it!). The Avarana sutta is nice and short and carries the message that without samadhi enough to temporarily be free from the five hindrances, one can't get any enlightening insight. What do you think about that, from your experience? Maybe it points to that the kind of enlightenment described in tye suttas is different from that which comes fron dry insight. 

Here it is:

 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html

and btw, what do you mean by insight into cause and effect? Do you mean this?:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

-Haha (I laugh at the conondrum we are discussing, not in a condescending or hostile way), I don't know how it abandons the hindrances, it just does.  I think sutra Buddhism is just an awesome well-organized spiritual system, but its not the only spiritual system.  In terms of upacara samadhi (access concentration), I would say I do have the dry equivalent to access concentration when I'm locked on to my notes.  We're talking about the brain and mind, in all of its complexity.  Contemplative methods are like the many faces of a diamond.  Although they are facing in different directions, there is only one diamond in the end.  The thing that actually transforms the mind is the effort that penetrates it sufficiently to disembed from the sense-of-center-point. 

-By insight into c&e, I mean both fundamental (what is being described in that sutra, minus any reincarnation-understanding), and conventional, meaning, how do actions in the world form reactions, how do my moods lead into other moods, etc.

How does it feel when the hindrances fade? According to the suttas, pleasure is kind of inevitable when they are absent. But maybe dry insight has a way around this too. Or maybe, as I currently suspect, it's another path with another result than what the suttas describe. You can see my queastionable arguments for this on my other thread about the four foundations.

Pål Writes:
How does it feel when the hindrances fade? According to the suttas, pleasure is kind of inevitable when they are absent. But maybe dry insight has a way around this too. Or maybe, as I currently suspect, it's another path with another result than what the suttas describe. You can see my queastionable arguments for this on my other thread about the four foundations.

When the mind is secluded and the hindrances are suspended, piti and sukha naturally arise, which has led many to say that this is the default setting of the mind. The range of feeling is wide. When I first started traversing this territory, it felt incredibly ragged and somewhat disturbing. Over time it has become much more manageable. As with anything, it is a practice.

This state can arise through both concentration and insight practice. If I were to sit down and start meditating simply by attending to the foremost sensations of whichever sense phenomena was arising (presumably what you keep referring to as "dry insight"; what might also be called "choiceless awareness", and with a label, "noting"), the hindrances would soon fade and the pleasant, happy feelings would be known. 

If you take the path as a whole, everything skillful has a place within the system. Concentration and insight arise in tandem. With practice, you will come to see this for yourself.

Is it normal for practices like noting to induce piti and sukha? Then why the split into insight and concentration practice? I've always found it weird, and it's not in the suttas, so what you say makes lots of sense to me. Have I misunderstood it when I think people usually don't get Jhanas or related states (like the pitisukha that preceds it) through choiseless awareness and noting? That's why I called them dry. If they do induce pleasure I'm in! not only because of hedonism, but also because of exoteric sutta fundamentalism ;)

Pål writes:
Is it normal for practices like noting to induce piti and sukha? Then why the split into insight and concentration practice? I've always found it weird, and it's not in the suttas, so what you say makes lots of sense to me. Have I misunderstood it when I think people usually don't get Jhanas or related states (like the pitisukha that preceds it) through choiseless awareness and noting? That's why I called them dry. If they do induce pleasure I'm in! not only because of hedonism, but also because of exoteric sutta fundamentalism ;)

Is it "normal?" Right now, this practice is very normal to me. I don't know how it is for other people.

You would be the best judge about whether you have misunderstood things or not. My experience stands as described here. Yours and others' will necessarily vary. I would urge you, as I did about a year ago, to practice more and ponder less.

Hedonism and pedagogy are dead ends to me. Perhaps you will find this is not/has not been the case. If so, please do report ;-)

Yes I know I should try fir myself, but I'm trying to decide whether it would be worth it or of I should just stick to my regular concentration practice. My main problem with dry stuff, as I've explained in quite a few threads (no offence!), if fear of nanas, especially DN:s, since I don't know if they are necessary for my goals, which is mainly fettercutting.

I currently don't see hedonism as a problem, my practice gets slightly more pleasant with about every other sit and that makes me want to practice more Nowadays I rarely sit less than an hour a day, but I know that's still nothing to DhO standards.

Are you sure the Dark Night would screw with you that much?  I'm pretty bipolar and I was able to get through it.  The first time I hit equanimity it felt like jumping in a pool of heavenly nectar.  It really is a nice path, Pal.  If you sit an hour a day already, why not just give it a bit of a try?  "All we are saying, is give peace a chance." (i dont really know why I thought of that, but yeah )

Pål Writes:
Yes I know I should try fir myself, but I'm trying to decide whether it would be worth it or of I should just stick to my regular concentration practice. My main problem with dry stuff, as I've explained in quite a few threads (no offence!), if fear of nanas, especially DN:s, since I don't know if they are necessary for my goals, which is mainly fettercutting.

I currently don't see hedonism as a problem, my practice gets slightly more pleasant with about every other sit and that makes me want to practice more Nowadays I rarely sit less than an hour a day, but I know that's still nothing to DhO standards.

Great, then just keep at your concentration practice until you develop the ability to suppress the hindrances and allow the piti and sukha to arise. Treat everything else as just a distraction.

I just fear it might be in vain for me. What could change my mind would mainly be some more accounts of people with lots of ten fetter progress who have gone through DN(:s).

@Small Steps
I'll give it a few years and retreats, then I might change practice if I get stuck. What do you think?