Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/11/15 11:38 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Richard Zen 10/12/15 12:40 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Noah 10/12/15 2:40 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Noah 10/12/15 2:49 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/13/15 10:03 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Elijah Smith 10/13/15 11:33 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? bernd the broter 10/12/15 5:27 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/13/15 12:21 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/13/15 10:10 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/13/15 12:15 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Mark 10/12/15 6:14 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? tom moylan 10/13/15 9:22 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/13/15 3:50 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/13/15 5:27 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/13/15 6:32 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/13/15 6:50 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/16/15 3:03 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/16/15 11:40 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/17/15 7:42 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/18/15 12:36 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/18/15 11:17 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/19/15 6:15 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Psi 10/13/15 6:17 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Andrew Young 10/13/15 4:17 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? svmonk 10/13/15 10:45 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Christian Calamus 10/14/15 6:51 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/14/15 9:09 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/19/15 6:01 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Elijah Smith 10/13/15 11:36 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/14/15 1:09 AM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Elijah Smith 10/14/15 10:23 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? Eva Nie 10/16/15 11:34 PM
RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness? CJMacie 10/19/15 6:12 AM
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/11/15 11:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/11/15 11:37 PM

Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Someone pointed this out to me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/opinion/can-we-end-the-meditation-madness.html?hpw&rref=opinion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

Intriguing, and many of the embedded links are further informative / stimulating.

Thoughts, anyone?
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Richard Zen, modified 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 12:40 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 12:39 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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For me meditation has been outstanding in reducing stress but I also use western psychology to help. I certainly wouldn't say everyone has to meditate and there are many things like self-efficacy/self-determination theories that can be helpful. I also see meditation practices in different religions that come to similar conclusions. I personally like the portable qualities of enlightenment that allows you to be open-eyed and even not need much meditation anymore and still function well. I also love the increased energy I have because the stress I used to have just makes you tired.

I think the problem here is evangelism. I'm actually going to continue a series of speeches on meditation with the goal of trying to explain it in laymen's terms and to see reactions that people have. Ultimately selling this stuff is about living it and savouring it. Since envy is connected with savouring you'll find curious people wanting to know more by seeing you not selling it and enjoying it. Any coercion demanding anything gets a natural reaction from people to be spiteful and do the opposite. People want autonomy and control (including over choosing to meditate or not) and nobody likes bullies and coercive people telling them what to do. It's like teaching your old-man how to use a computer "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" 

Like Daniel points out in MCTB, the evangelism stage is a temporary stage and people realize that many people will not meditate, don't need it, have conventional forms of happiness that are quite enjoyable and healthy (Flow in particular) so let it be. Some people are also narcissists and fear the void more than anyone else. To let go of control would be a nightmare for them.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 2:40 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 2:40 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Like Daniel points out in MCTB, the evangelism stage is a temporary stage and people realize that many people will not meditate, don't need it, have conventional forms of happiness that are quite enjoyable and healthy (Flow in particular) so let it be. 


I struggle with this.  It feels like I want to put everyone into a neat little box where they all have the same or similar problems.  First it was labelled "dukha" and now its labelled "the human condition."  I am trying to be less naive by realizing that the world is a chaotic system and there are no hard and fast rules.  There is no one solution for everyone.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 2:49 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 2:49 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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@OP:

One idea from the article is that the positive benefits of meditation can be found in other, healthy activities.  This reminded me of some comment that Willoughby Britton made about how the body of meditation research lacks true double blind studies.  I can't find the original source, but she went on to explain how difficult it is since it is such a conspicuous activity.  Meaning, you would have to get the other test-group to be doing all the same things as the meditators, and they couldn't even be allowed to find out what the subject of the study was.  Very difficult to engineer, and carry out.  

So it seems as if it will be a long time before meditation research truly narrows down what the exact effects are, in an empirical way.
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 5:27 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 5:27 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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This type of article is so not new. I feel like I have read something like that lots of times already. It also bores the hell out of me.
Let me paraphrase it:

For some reason - not my fault, of course - I keep running into meditation evangelists with laughably stupid arguments.
They annoy me, therefore I write long rant in online newspaper, although I know basically nothing about meditation.
Writing article about stuff that I know nothing about is hard and probably will be unpopular, therefore I need to quote a bunch of studies, scientists and "experts".
Also I'll throw in some studies about "mindfulness", which prove that you can get it without  meditation. In order not to distract from the subject, I won't even bother to explain what I mean by "mindfulness", which I probably haven't thought about much anyway.

[this one is unique to this article]
I even somehow manage to quote Willoughby Britton. Instead of realizing then (about time!) that meditation is about something other than minimizing stress, I use this as an argument that meditation is not that good at what it proclaims to be good at.


look at this in isolation to realize how ridiculous it is:

Meditation isn’t snake oil. [...] But it isn’t a panacea.

Yo mama isn't snake oil. But she ain't a panacea.

headline:
Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Go home. It's quiet there. No evil meditation evangelists to disturb your silence. Also I'm sick of witnessing the damage that people like you commit by spreading misinformation even further.
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 6:14 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/12/15 6:10 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Chris J Macie:
Someone pointed this out to me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/opinion/can-we-end-the-meditation-madness.html?hpw&rref=opinion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

Intriguing, and many of the embedded links are further informative / stimulating.

Thoughts, anyone?

The article frames meditation as a solution for stress reduction. Which fits with how I imagine the majority of people use it. I don't think that is a reasonable way to conclude on what meditation offers. It might be like assessing the usefulness of teaching science in school by asking the average high school graduate about the benefits of their science education.

I see meditation being concerned with insight into the process of subjective experience. While most people (like the author of the article) will frame questions in regards to the content of subjective experience. Certainly meditation changes the content but I suspect there are often better ways to do that, if that is the goal. 

If the goal is to explore the nature of subjective experience then meditation seems to be a valuable tool, his mention of LSD is perhaps more relevant that he imagines. If the goal is conforming to social norms with minimal stress then I think the author is wise to look for other methods (edit: although meditation seems to work well in this respect for some people)

That people should avoid pushing an idea when someone is not interested makes sense. If someone is choosing not to meditate then it makes sense to respect that decision.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 12:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 12:21 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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bernd the broter:

Go home. It's quiet there. No evil meditation evangelists to disturb your silence. Also I'm sick of witnessing the damage that people like you commit by spreading misinformation even further.
Dude,  a bit much maybe?
-Eva
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 9:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 9:22 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Hi Chris,
I found little in the article that was really groundbreaking.  I too found that the general tenor of the piece was that of one who has zero interest in meditation and is sick of being beaten over the head with his "unenlightened view".

I can empathize.  I can look back on my own attempts at trying to convey some of my fervor to friends and family and my inability to comprehend how they could NOT SEE the amazing transcendental logic blah blah blah..

We all know that lots of people are unhappy, suffering and hopeless.  Only a fraction of them look inward for answers and of those only a percentage will look towards and ancient system for answers.

The writer says meditation is boring.  I have had, and continue to have an extremely full, fulfilling and exciting life but noting else compares to the infinitly interesting meditational experiences I have had.

Its similar to people who don't read;  I can't comprehend the (percieved) vacuous nature of a life without having opened that avenue of pursuit but there are billions who simply don't, or can't do it.

tom
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 10:03 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 9:56 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Noah:

"... the body of meditation research lacks true double blind studies.  I can't find the original source, but she went on to explain how difficult it is since it is such a conspicuous activity.  Meaning, you would have to get the other test-group to be doing all the same things as the meditators, and they couldn't even be allowed to find out what the subject of the study was...

So it seems as if it will be a long time before meditation research truly narrows down what the exact effects are, in an empirical way."

Certainly a fuzzy situation. Two thoughts:

1) How to be sure that subjects in various "arms" of experiementation are really doing the same thing. At one extreme, some studies just use some single practitioner (some kind of master). At an other extreme, there are meta-analyses trying to distinguish groups and find distinctions statistically across many studys. (e.g. the study using Alexander Wynne's notions of "Hindu" vs "Buddhist" meditations --Disentangling the Neural Mechanisms Involved in Hinduism- and Buddhism-related Meditations)*

* This study has to be purchased to read, but I found a free pre-publication version, which I can share if anyone wants it.

I could imagine better resolution by finding groups of subject with some sort of certified common practice. For instance a group of Pa Auk Sayadaw type jhana practitioners selected by the Sayadaw. Or a group of Mahasi vipassana practitioners analogously certified.

Even on the control side, selecting groups of people doing well-defined, certifiable activities that represent various forms of mental activity.

2) A larger question would be what is the goal. Given the s/w rudamentary understanding of what's really going on that fMRI pictures represent, and similar as yet primitive understanding of precise neural activity (the problem is so massive), how honestly can scientists really claim to understand the relation of experiential factors with neural activity in any meaningful way?

I can imagine a different sort of goal: namely evolving bio-feedback devices as learning aides for the cultivation of very specific practices – like those above (Pa Aukjhana and Mahasi vipassana). But this raises the further question as to whether this improves upon the traditional methods of practice tutored by master practitioners. Using "science" and gadgets may simply be self-gratification of Western geek propensities and conceit. (This meant as a critical challenge, which could well be successfully met.)
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 10:10 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 10:08 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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re: bernd the broter (10/12/15 5:27 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"Also I'm sick of witnessing the damage that people like you commit by spreading misinformation even further."

Could you expand a bit on what such" damage" might be?

(One casualty appears to have been your own equanimity.)

On the other hand, today (12 October) is new moon, an Uposatha day. Maybe just a good time to let this go, and get back to metta meditation.

Or really significant news, like:
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/10/12/with-unesco-listing-will-german-bread-rise-again1.html
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 12:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 12:15 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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I guess it's like if someone went to a tennis talk board and posted an article where someone says tennis is boring and the same benefits can be gotten with badminton.  If your sense of identity is entwined with some activity, like tennis or badminton, then any perceived 'attack' on that activity will be responded to similar to like it was a personal attack.  But even though it's a bit like laying down slabs of meat in the jungle but hoping the lions won't come, I do think the article has some valuable points to make. 

First of all, it was written by someone who may represent the average person who does not meditate much and finds it boring.  This is probably a lot of people and yes, sometimes meditating is, imo, boring.  It's not always that way but I can certainly understand the sentiment.  I kind of took it in part as a plee to stop beating people over the head if they don't meditate and that that such harrassment may actually be counterproductive for those who are not receptive. 

Another point is that people can and do become enlightened without meditation, there are other routes that also have good things to offer, meditation is not the ONLY valid game in town. I personally find much value in taking many of the things commonly done in meditation and doing them all day long as much as can be remembered.  Observation of self does not require a pillow.  

Another point is that the way meditation is currently advertised in most quarters, ie for relaxation, is something that can be had via many other avenues and research shows that.  Yes, many people here on this board are probably doing it for enlightenment but that is not the reasoning it is sold under in most quarters.  And selling it under the concept of enlightenment is tricky because many people will not see reason to believe in such a thing as easily and it does kind of require a big chunk of faith and religionlike belief to accept there is such a thing as some kind of mystical enlightenment possible, especially considering most meditators haven't seemed to achieve it.

And the article does not even mention some possible less pleasant side effects like dark night, identity crisis etc, which in a way could be considered a bit of false advertising on the part of the general (not here) meditation community, perhaps a desire to see meditation through rose tinted glasses.  In the kundalini talk circles, people are generally warned that kundalini is like taking the tiger by the tail and that there is often blowback, such that if problems come along, a person can be less shocked and confused.   But in the meditation world in general (not here), potential downsides are often either glossed over or not mentioned.  People who run into problems without a good teacher to guide them are left with probably confusion and little information to help them.     

Anyway, I think it pays to consider all issues of one's chosen endeavor, not just the nicer more positive sounding ones. 
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 3:50 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 3:50 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Chris J Macie:
Someone pointed this out to me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/opinion/can-we-end-the-meditation-madness.html?hpw&rref=opinion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

Intriguing, and many of the embedded links are further informative / stimulating.

Thoughts, anyone?
I do not believe that he is hunted down by any meditation evangelists.  I am speculating that he is acting out upon his own preprogrammed behavior, either individual or social.  In other words, people like to appease the glands and the senses, this goes back millennia.  If there is a way to hack instinctual behavior and behave independent of the senses, i.e. to break free of the slavery to the senses, the whole structure of market behavior, supply and demand, greed and profit, rich and poor, ...  Well, it would crumble, and the Authors excuse to be a paid columnist would also crumble, his identity view would be threatened.  As would the identity view of the owners of the New York Newspaper.  So to publish a propagandist article as shown in this instance appeases the senses of those in power, and those subservient to those in power.  It is not written for the benefit of all.

But the article contains some deceptions, perhaps leading a fencepost reader to abandon any meditation practice. It is rare enough for a person to run across meditation or Dhamma, let alone to be lead astray and misled by mass publication systems.

But, proper mental cultivation will lead one to freedom, in direct proportion with the amount of effort and correct practice invested in such activities.  It is true, happiness can be found in many forms, etc, etc, but having a beer and a hot dog at a Yankees game is not going to liberate your mind, it might make you temporarily happy, but that type of externally triggered happiness will quickly cease and pass away, the only sure thing  it will liberate is your pocketbook.

(Average Yankee game ticket $101, add in beer , hot dog, parking, yikes.) possible side effect, temporary happiness, (unless they lose) 

(Average Meditation session, $0) possible side effect, Insight for Life....

Anyway my point in all this is from the authors first line.

I AM being stalked by meditation evangelists.

In truth it is the other way around, most people are stalked by worldy view people, wanting to endelssy chase worldy view phenomenon.

I AM being stalked by Opinion Columnist Evangelists.

Well, not true, really, just writing for the fun of it...  emoticon

P.S.  Fair disclosure, I do enjoy a good baseball game, Last watched the St Louis Cardinals at Busch Stadium beat the Reds 10-2, My older daughter took me there for my birthday, how sweet

Psi
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Andrew Young, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 4:17 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 4:17 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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I think the vast majority of people (for understandable reasons) equate Buddhism with religion and assume that it requires incense, Buddha statues, chanting, and a belief in reincarnation.  If there was more awareness of secular perspectives there might be greater acceptance.

Not that I’m suggesting evangelism of secular Buddhism.  I have noticed that talking to people about my practice can be (or is usually) a form of self-affirmation.  Consequently it’s not helpful to me, and certainly if that’s the underlying motivation, it’s not going to be helpful to them either.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 5:27 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 5:27 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Psi:
Chris J Macie:
Someone pointed this out to me:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/opinion/can-we-end-the-meditation-madness.html?hpw&rref=opinion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

Intriguing, and many of the embedded links are further informative / stimulating.

Thoughts, anyone?
I do not believe that he is hunted down by any meditation evangelists.  I am speculating that he is acting out upon his own preprogrammed behavior, either individual or social. 
Well.. In certain segments of California, trendy Hollywood or yoga or spiritual circles (ESPECIALLY spiritual circles), it's getting to be quite the latest trendy thing, so I could imagine some might feel the pressure.  And as someone else has already mentioned, like anything that currently has trendy cache mystique, there are many who profess their meditation practices with quite an undercurrent of ego/bragging involved, not that such is unique to meditation of course, people brag about all kinds of stuff, just that lately in some circles, poeple brag about the fact that they meditate, know a lot about meditation, etc kind of insinuating that everyone else is lazy and doesn't care about evolution.  (oh hey wait, that also happens here too doesn't it! ;-P)
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 6:17 PM
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RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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[quote=Psi

]P.S.  Fair disclosure, I do enjoy a good baseball game, Last watched the St Louis Cardinals at Busch Stadium beat the Reds 10-2, My older daughter took me there for my birthday, how sweet

PsiFair further dsclosure.  She got the tickets for free, for having good grades last year, we brought our own food, left early, because neither one of us is attached to baseball or its outcomes, and would rather avoid the mob traffic.  We parkeda mile away , because I was foolish and was not heedful of the city at night.  There were homeless and stranded travelers.  People asked us for money, I gave my last three dollars, my daughter handed out a five.  There was a guy ranting to himself on a park bench, a girl reading a book in a blanket, hundreds of glass eyed beer drinkers outside the Stadium at the outdoor bars.

But all in all, we had a good time, but we could have had that with or without the Stadium Experience.  But that seems to be the way Society has been trained.

Psi
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 6:32 PM
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RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Eva M Nie:
[quote=Well.. In certain segments of California, trendy Hollywood or yoga or spiritual circles (ESPECIALLY spiritual circles), it's getting to be quite the latest trendy thing, so I could imagine some might feel the pressure.  And as someone else has already mentioned, like anything that currently has trendy cache mystique, there are many who profess their meditation practices with quite an undercurrent of ego/bragging involved, not that such is unique to meditation of course, people brag about all kinds of stuff, just that lately in some circles, poeple brag about the fact that they meditate, know a lot about meditation, etc kind of insinuating that everyone else is lazy and doesn't care about evolution.  (oh hey wait, that also happens here too doesn't it! ;-P)
]
There could be all that, ego undercurrent, bragging, etc.  But, honestly, anyone could read some books and post or talk about meditation and how they could visualize, talk to Devas, have Insight , see Emptiness, Rigpa, Nibbana, go from one Jhana to the next, be aware of every little bubbly sensation at 65 megahertz, have kundalini descriptions, flames shooting from their ass, etc. etc.

But, in reality, a true practioner shares without the ego view or the intention of bragging, all of that is shed just as a snake sheds its worn out skin.  A true practitioner shares out of compassion and selflessness, just trying to share what has worked for them in the past, with no judgements of anyone's character or practice.  There may be analysis and investigation of each other's practices, to be sure, but not so much a judgemental type of condemnation or anything.

But, really, who is who?  What is what?  I say , "Believe no one, Investigate on one's own."  Or not, everyone has their own choices in life, who is really to say what is exactly best for anyone, and how to run or not run their own lives?

And I know you know all this , I am just dialoguing with you.

Cuz, sometimes we just have to enjoy the game.  

Of life, not baseball. emoticon

Psi
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 6:50 PM
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RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Psi:


But, in reality, a true practioner shares without the ego view or the intention of bragging, all of that is shed just as a snake sheds its worn out skin.  A true practitioner shares out of compassion and selflessness, just trying to share what has worked for them in the past, with no judgements of anyone's character or practice.  There may be analysis and investigation of each other's practices, to be sure, but not so much a judgemental type of condemnation or anything.
Yes, I agree but I think a lot have not gotten that far yet.  For myself, the more I look, the more ego I keep finding lurking in the crannies and hiding under that giant bulge in the carpet !  However, in real life, I don't feel tempted to brag about any attainments real or imagined because my long time friends are not in those circles and they would probably bust a gut laughing their butt off if I even tried it, assuming I was either joking or ready for the funny farm.  ;-P
-Eva
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svmonk, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 10:45 PM
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RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Hi Chris,

There's a phenomenon in the tech industry called "The Gartner Hype Curve", named for a consulting company who came up with it. It looks like this:



(image courtesy of Wikimedia)

It describes how media and company interest in particular technologies develops over time, going from an initial, small open source, research, or commercial success, through totally overblown media attention ("it's a dessert topping AND it's a floor wax!!!), through a trough of disappoinntment as folks realize its hard for one substance to function as both a dessert topping and a floor wax, through to how people who are actually using it discover how to make it useful in their business/life/whatever.

But I believe the hype curve applies to lots of different areas, and that it models how human attention and judgement works when focussed through the lens of media*. I've thought for some time that meditation was in the process of climbing the hype curve on the left and it was only a matter of time before it hit the peak. This article suggests it may be near or at the peak. If that is true, then there is likely to be a major downturn in the near future, maybe next year, with lots of media focus on negative stories, such as the author of the article cites as being under investigation by Willoghby Britton. In media outlets that have a vested interest in keeping the hype going, you will see articles with the general theme of "mediation is still relevent despite the bad press" in a desperate attempt to keep the curve climbing.

For those of us who have been doing meditation for all our adult lives, this kind of article is just kind of interesting static. We mostly know the downside, have experienced it, or know people who have, and still we value it as an essential part of our lives.

*Actually, come to think of it, one could view the MTCB map as kind of the same thing. Prior to A&P we are climbing up the left side, at the A&P we are at the peak (and running around evangelizing), then in the Trough of Disappointment is the dukka nanas, the Slope of Enlightenment is EQ, and the Plateau of Productivity is Stream Entry. Kind of a rough comparison, maybe not entirely accurate.
Elijah Smith, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 11:33 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 11:33 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

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Noah:
@OP:

One idea from the article is that the positive benefits of meditation can be found in other, healthy activities.  This reminded me of some comment that Willoughby Britton made about how the body of meditation research lacks true double blind studies.  I can't find the original source, but she went on to explain how difficult it is since it is such a conspicuous activity.  Meaning, you would have to get the other test-group to be doing all the same things as the meditators, and they couldn't even be allowed to find out what the subject of the study was.  Very difficult to engineer, and carry out.  

So it seems as if it will be a long time before meditation research truly narrows down what the exact effects are, in an empirical way.


I think comparing across meditative techniques is a useful way to tease it out. That is, if there is a lot of variance in the impact on psychological symptoms, brain regions or brain activity across techniques, this suggests the techniques are doing something distinct. If it was a generic placebo effect, you'd see a homogenous effect across techniques.
Elijah Smith, modified 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 11:36 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/13/15 11:35 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
"In an experiment
led by the Stanford psychologist Alia Crum, when people had only 10
minutes to prepare a charismatic speech, simply reframing the stress
response as healthy was enough to relax them and reduce their
physiological responses, if they tended to be highly reactive."

I've heard about that study before and I think (without having looked at their methods) it's very flawed. Everyone thinks they are stressed, but only the people who are truly stressed (e.g., have depression or anxiety disorders) are the ones who will say that it is likely impacting their health. It's not thought itself causing the health issues, it's the fact that underlying variables are correlated with both the health issues and the thought.

Being in academic circles, I'm sure the author at Stanford was told this when presenting the paper, and it's likely in the paper, but it just gets so miscited in the press.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 1:09 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 1:09 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:
It's not thought itself causing the health issues, it's the fact that underlying variables are correlated with both the health issues and the thought.
Not sure exactly what you mean but it's fairly accepted in psychological circles that thought affects emotion and emotion affects thought.  Changing of either affects the other and the more successful psych methods target thought patterns to reduce stress.  Reframing is one such classic technique for changing thought patterns and IMO it can work very well when done regularly.
-Eva
Christian Calamus, modified 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 6:51 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 6:49 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/23/10 Recent Posts
svmonk:


*Actually, come to think of it, one could view the MTCB map as kind of the same thing. Prior to A&P we are climbing up the left side, at the A&P we are at the peak (and running around evangelizing), then in the Trough of Disappointment is the dukka nanas, the Slope of Enlightenment is EQ, and the Plateau of Productivity is Stream Entry. Kind of a rough comparison, maybe not entirely accurate.


An older thread with some graphs of the Progress of Insight: 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3994448?_19_threadView=tree/de/fi
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 9:09 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 8:32 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Christian Calamus:
svmonk:

*Actually, come to think of it, one could view the MTCB map as kind of the same thing. Prior to A&P we are climbing up the left side, at the A&P we are at the peak (and running around evangelizing), then in the Trough of Disappointment is the dukka nanas, the Slope of Enlightenment is EQ, and the Plateau of Productivity is Stream Entry. Kind of a rough comparison, maybe not entirely accurate.
An older thread with some graphs of the Progress of Insight:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3994448?_19_threadView=tree/de/fi

That link goes to a thread with
Nikolai RE: Graphing the Progress of Insight
2/7/13 3:29 AM as a reply to Christian Calamus
under the graph there it says:
"From www.nibbanam.com"
which seems to link to the main DhO Discusion page ?

Entering "nibbanam.com" as url in browser goes to some slick ad-filled site titled

Oh well, I was thinking maybe there was something substantial at the end of that trail.
That web site -- a mix of pictures of monks and female bodies?
How can anyone who cites something like that possibly criticise Adam Grant's article? 

Maybe the target of that link has shifted since Febrary 2013 -- known as "link rot", or "content drift"? Maybe there's no-one there -- both citing such trash and talking about the article.

"Theravadin" I've run into before, and, as here, with no hint of identification as to the author(s).

Perhaps an addendum to Grant's article is in order, about all what kind of posers and weirdos are exploiting mindfulness, "dharma", "Buddhism", etc. today -- and which addendum also as an update to the first part of William Hamilton's Saints and Psychopaths that reminds us this is all nothing new?
Elijah Smith, modified 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 10:23 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/14/15 10:21 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
Eva M Nie:
Elijah Smith:
It's not thought itself causing the health issues, it's the fact that underlying variables are correlated with both the health issues and the thought.
Not sure exactly what you mean but it's fairly accepted in psychological circles that thought affects emotion and emotion affects thought.  Changing of either affects the other and the more successful psych methods target thought patterns to reduce stress.  Reframing is one such classic technique for changing thought patterns and IMO it can work very well when done regularly.
-Eva
Yes, I agree with that - the claim you are making is better tested by experiments rather than observational studies like the one in question. But the results of the study actually say that whether the person believes stress is bad for their health can have a huge impact on whether it actually is bad for their health. The problem is this type of correlation is not statistical evidence to support the causal claim that changing the way one thinks about stress will impact whether stress actually does harm one's health. They are ignoring the fact that the thought that stress is bad for one's health is statistically correlated with other things. That is, people who think that stress is bad for their health are different from people who do not think that stress is bad for their health in other ways than just that belief. In particular, I'd say that these people are subject to more serious stressors - this is what is leading them to have that belief, in the first place. This is a long way of saying correlation is not equal to causation. A lot of these observational psychology papers are very very hard to interpret, because of this sort of problem.
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 3:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 3:01 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Eva M Nie:
  For myself, the more I look, the more ego I keep finding lurking in the crannies and hiding under that giant bulge in the carpet ! 
Haha, yes.  When I catch one, another bulge under the carpet pops up, I am like a cat chasing the carpet bulges! And then there is the subflooring under the carpet, and the basement.  emoticon

However, in real life, I don't feel tempted to brag about any attainments real or imagined because my long time friends are not in those circles and they would probably bust a gut laughing their butt off if I even tried it, assuming I was either joking or ready for the funny farm.  ;-P
-Eva

Yeah, trying to explain the inner workings of one's own mind never has seemed to fare well.  If and when I have tried I get a Wtf look !?  

Very few seem interested, and the ones that do never seem to muster up a practice, life is very busy for people, and there are so many distractions for the average person nowadays, Iphones, Cable, Netflix, Xbox, AppleBees,Work, Sleep, School, Birthdays, Holidays, News, Politics, Religion, Social Issues, Bills, Kids, Health Issues, Headaches, Caffeine, Nicotine, Alcohol, Drugs, Prescriptions, Magazines, Internet, Car Troubles, Traffic, Laundry, Dishes, Shaving, Lawn Care, Movies, Books, Hobbies and Crafts, Fishing, Phone Calls, Junk Mail, Billboards, Commercials, Friends, Shopping,  Panpanca.

The Worldy view is a literal Clutterfest for the mind to be infected by.  But, who needs it?  My favorite quote, from I know not who.

There is Breathing, the rest is just stories.

Psi
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 11:34 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 11:34 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:
Eva M Nie:
Elijah Smith:
It's not thought itself causing the health issues, it's the fact that underlying variables are correlated with both the health issues and the thought.
Not sure exactly what you mean but it's fairly accepted in psychological circles that thought affects emotion and emotion affects thought.  Changing of either affects the other and the more successful psych methods target thought patterns to reduce stress.  Reframing is one such classic technique for changing thought patterns and IMO it can work very well when done regularly.
-Eva
Yes, I agree with that - the claim you are making is better tested by experiments rather than observational studies like the one in question. But the results of the study actually say that whether the person believes stress is bad for their health can have a huge impact on whether it actually is bad for their health. The problem is this type of correlation is not statistical evidence to support the causal claim that changing the way one thinks about stress will impact whether stress actually does harm one's health.
Ok, yes, agreed, correlation does not imply causation.  I kinda skimmed it and didn't catch the weak logic. Didn't seem like any of the research was extremely robust and replicated, probably not a ton of money flowing down from big pharma for it!  ;-P
-Eva
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 11:40 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/16/15 11:40 PM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Psi:
Eva M Nie:
  For myself, the more I look, the more ego I keep finding lurking in the crannies and hiding under that giant bulge in the carpet ! 
Haha, yes.  When I catch one, another bulge under the carpet pops up, I am like a cat chasing the carpet bulges! And then there is the subflooring under the carpet, and the basement.  emoticon
Yeah, hesistant to try to guess what I might find that far down.  What I've seen so far makes about as much sense as quantum theory to me so it may all change to fuzzy math and nonsensical magic once I get past the carpet and its bulges.  ;-P

However, in real life, I don't feel tempted to brag about any attainments real or imagined because my long time friends are not in those circles and they would probably bust a gut laughing their butt off if I even tried it, assuming I was either joking or ready for the funny farm.  ;-P
-Eva

Yeah, trying to explain the inner workings of one's own mind never has seemed to fare well.  If and when I have tried I get a Wtf look !?  

Very few seem interested, and the ones that do never seem to muster up a practice, life is very busy for people, and there are so many distractions for the average person nowadays, Iphones, Cable, Netflix, Xbox, AppleBees,Work, Sleep, School, Birthdays, Holidays, News, Politics, Religion, Social Issues, Bills, Kids, Health Issues, Headaches, Caffeine, Nicotine, Alcohol, Drugs, Prescriptions, Magazines, Internet, Car Troubles, Traffic, Laundry, Dishes, Shaving, Lawn Care, Movies, Books, Hobbies and Crafts, Fishing, Phone Calls, Junk Mail, Billboards, Commercials, Friends, Shopping,  Panpanca.

The Worldy view is a literal Clutterfest for the mind to be infected by.  But, who needs it?  My favorite quote, from I know not who.

There is Breathing, the rest is just stories.

Psi
I still spend a lot of time futzing around at work and doing some wordly things, taking care of the house and a few animals, making food, and working seem to suck up a large amount of time daily. But, IMO, even being a monk and breathing are probably stories, just simpler ones.  ;-P
-Eva
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/17/15 7:42 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/17/15 7:42 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts

I still spend a lot of time futzing around at work and doing some wordly things, taking care of the house and a few animals, making food, and working seem to suck up a large amount of time daily. But, IMO, even being a monk and breathing are probably stories, just simpler ones.  ;-P
-Eva
Yes, agreed, but yet another angle,the whole of papanca, proliferation, whether housholder or monk or whatever, is just that , all stories, or mental descriptions.  It goes back to the Four Elements, getting the mind to understand that all the different phenomenon is really just the same thing.  i.e. all phenomenon is just patterns of vibrating energy, for example.  So, perhaps once the mind understands phenomenon in this manner, one can live within all of the wordly chaos, yet remain unaffected, imperturable.  A Mind like the earth element, so to speak.  

An Island in a sea of madness...

Yet , to be sure an island is still part of the sea.

Anyway, that is kind of the angle of training I am attempting, to have a steady mind, whether in a crowded establishment or by a still pond.  To train the mind to be still and steady regardless of the external situation.  This seems to be a more practical solution to living in the world, from my current view anyway.

Psi
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/18/15 12:36 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/18/15 12:36 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Psi:

Anyway, that is kind of the angle of training I am attempting, to have a steady mind, whether in a crowded establishment or by a still pond.  To train the mind to be still and steady regardless of the external situation.  This seems to be a more practical solution to living in the world, from my current view anyway.

Psi
I suspect it's good if you can do it.  I think of it like dog training, a dog that is well trained in the house would not be considered well trained if it could not also behave in a noisy boisterous environment.  But the training often starts in the house or somewhere quiet where the dog can concentrate on commands and learn with less distraction.  That's the most efficient way to first teach/learn the commands.  Then when the dog understands the commands well, the training is intensified ot more challanging environments.  Eventually a very well trained dog can learn to behave even if a parade of naked cats walks by!  ;-P 

That's how I think of mental training, first learn the basics in an easier environment, then learn to apply them in as many situations as possibly all day.  If that gets easy, then seek out challenges.  It's probably a very efficient way to progress but of course I like many do tend to feel an attraction to staying with easier things at times.   It's easy to slow down and rest once the typical situations have been mostly handled.  But IMO, such will not make for the most efficient progress of learning.  
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 10/18/15 11:17 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/18/15 11:14 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Eva M Nie:
Psi:

Anyway, that is kind of the angle of training I am attempting, to have a steady mind, whether in a crowded establishment or by a still pond.  To train the mind to be still and steady regardless of the external situation.  This seems to be a more practical solution to living in the world, from my current view anyway.

Psi
I suspect it's good if you can do it.  I think of it like dog training, a dog that is well trained in the house would not be considered well trained if it could not also behave in a noisy boisterous environment.  But the training often starts in the house or somewhere quiet where the dog can concentrate on commands and learn with less distraction.  That's the most efficient way to first teach/learn the commands.  Then when the dog understands the commands well, the training is intensified ot more challanging environments.  Eventually a very well trained dog can learn to behave even if a parade of naked cats walks by!  ;-P 

That's how I think of mental training, first learn the basics in an easier environment, then learn to apply them in as many situations as possibly all day.  If that gets easy, then seek out challenges.  It's probably a very efficient way to progress but of course I like many do tend to feel an attraction to staying with easier things at times.   It's easy to slow down and rest once the typical situations have been mostly handled.  But IMO, such will not make for the most efficient progress of learning.  
+1 

That is an excellent little piece you wrote there.  

Maybe we can take all of this a little further, push the envelope so to speak.

So, in everyday life we have opportunities mental cultivation, and in formal meditation we have opportunities for mental cultivation.  One practice benefits the other.  In the everyday mundane worldy interactions we have the opportunity to develop mental cultivation in a variety of real time external circumstances.  And then , on the other hand in formal meditation, we have the opportunity to develop mental cultivation in a variety of internal circumstances. And further,  Say what one develops during contact with the external , those triumphs carry over into the formal sitting times, and the reverse must be true also.  i.e. The triumphs in contact with the internal phenomenon carry over into the dealing with the external circumstances.

I also think that for the best and fullest progress to be made, one should endeavor to practice both, hand in hand.  And, to add, the formal meditation aspect of practice is important, in that , it is really only during these times that we can have the mind stilled enough to experience into the sub layers of the mind and delve deeper into the inner workings of what is going on in the sub minds, and in this way have the opportunity for unification of the mind.

And for example:  This contemplation can be used both in formal meditation, and during daily living activities, 
(5. Elements)
12. “Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reviews this same body, however it is placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements thus: ‘In this body there are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element.’ [58] Just as though a skilled butcher or his apprentice had killed a cow and was seated at the crossroads with it cut up into pieces; so too, a bhikkhu reviews this same body … as consisting of elements thus: ‘In this body there are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element.’
    13. “In this way he abides contemplating the body as a body internally, externally, and both internally and externally … And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. That too is how a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body.


So, the way  see it, this is a way to cultivate mentally, externally and internally, daily life and meditation times.

I know, I know, I am being platitudinous again, Sigh....  But anyway, 

It all brings us back to the OP, "Can We End the Meditation Madness?"

But, really, "What Madness?"

On the one hand , I kind of agree with the Author, proselytizing is kind of irritating, but the other point the Author makes about downplaying meditation beneifts, is only his mere speculation, he obviously dropped out of practice and gave up, he was bored.  But if he had trudged on, he may have been able to see the benefits of meditation for himself. It is probaby all just part of the instantaneous gratification syndrome ingrained into current society. And Meditation Benefits take Time, Grit, Effort, and Patience.

But if that was doen we may have articles with headlines like this,

"Can we end the Netflix Madness?"

"Can we end the Texting Madness?"

"Can we end the Shopping Madness?"
 
I think it is probably just very rare for more than a small percentage of people to really delve into and cultivate the mind consciously.  The Mind Cultivators I am speaking of are not just Buddhists. Mind Culitvators can span across any type of system or paradigm, and indeed there are millions.  But Millions of people are still a small percentage of the population.  1% of population is 74 million people, 10 % equals 740 million people, but still a minority.

So, I really do not see that there is or ever was a Meditation Madness, anyways....

Psi
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 6:01 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 5:57 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
svmonk:
Hi Chris,

There's a phenomenon in the tech industry called "The Gartner Hype Curve"...

For those of us who have been doing meditation for all our adult lives, this kind of article is just kind of interesting static. We mostly know the downside, have experienced it, or know people who have, and still we value it as an essential part of our lives.


As also for some of us not that long experienced in meditation, but still having lived long enough to have
seen enough comings and goings.

The most concrete difference in my day-to-day experience (as distinct from the experiences here on DhO or in other "dharma" groups) is seeming to run into more people, socially and professionally, who just happen to be experts on Buddhism, having opinions they think worth voicing authoritatively.

And on the internet, that increased noise of mindfulness / meditation items popping-up more in news-type sites, and, conversely, the greater influx of polished (and obnoxious) commercial-ad, attention-grabbing, formatting in website supposedly focusing on "dharma"; notably one recently encountered that systematically juxtaposed pictures of Asian monks with pictures of alluring females.

(That graph ("The Gartner HypeCurve") somehow reminds me of the MSWord "animation" (the polymorphic paper-clip) that used pop-up and entertain; in this case the version that would point (the part of the curve going off to the right) to something .)
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 6:12 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 6:04 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:

... study ... very flawed. Everyone thinks they are stressed, but only the people who are truly stressed (e.g., have depression or anxiety disorders) are the ones who will say that it is likely impacting their health. It's not thought itself causing the health issues, it's the fact that underlying variables are correlated with both the health issues and the thought.


Likely quite true. The hypothesis does, however, make some sense when transposed into a dhamma context and taking 'stress' as in Thanissaro Bhikku's use in translating 'dukkha'. Stress factors persist in everyday living (in just being alive), but support health (e.g. via an hormetic effect) or pathology according to how they are handled, reacted to or not.

Sutta-wise, even arahants are still subject to prior-conditioned ("past-rebirthed") kamma (karma). As in the guy who 'awakened' while listening to the Buddha, but, on his way to get a bowl and robes etc. prior to formally 'ordaining', was killed by a cow when he inadvertently got between her and her calf. Presumably his equanimity prevailed, but to an unawakened reader, it certainly would seem a dukkha (unsatisfactory) situation.
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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 6:15 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/19/15 6:15 AM

RE: Can We End the Meditation Madness?

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Psi:

An Island in a sea of madness...


"Rest your weary mind. Rest in natural great peace, this exhausted mind, beaten helpless by karma and neurotic thought, like the relentless fury of the pounding waves in the infinite ocean of samsara."


(Sharon Salzberg, in a end-of-retreat "Going Home" dharma talk (ca. 2000), quoting a Tibetan teacher)

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