Kim Katami and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Kim Katami and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 9/13/16 2:04 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Jehanne S Peacock 5/13/16 9:12 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/13/16 9:21 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Jehanne S Peacock 5/13/16 2:22 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/13/16 11:42 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: tom moylan 5/18/16 7:17 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/18/16 9:25 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/18/16 11:04 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/18/16 3:24 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/18/16 3:41 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/18/16 3:48 PM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/19/16 1:59 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/19/16 3:42 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Babs _ 5/19/16 4:25 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Matt 5/18/16 7:26 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/18/16 8:09 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: neko 5/18/16 8:27 AM
RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc: Matt 5/18/16 11:09 AM
RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton! Karl Eikrem 5/19/16 3:44 PM
RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton! tom moylan 5/23/16 3:59 AM
RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton! Psi 5/20/16 7:50 PM
RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton! Psi 5/21/16 6:17 AM
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 9/13/16 2:04 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 1:09 AM

Kim Katami and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Kim Katami and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 9:12 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 9:10 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Hi Baba,
this was very interesting.Thank you for sharing! emoticon
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 9:21 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 9:19 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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My pleasure Jehanne. Anything useful?
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 2:22 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 2:22 PM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Yeah I think so. It was especially heart warming to hear you two talk about the difficulties in mapping other people, since people tend to describe the things using words differently. I also found Dan's descriptions of paths 1-4 to be illuminating (I've read several descriptions from him and also others, but every new attempt at describing is unique and "opens up" differently). I actually half decided on behalf of myself on which path I'm at emoticon Simply because that way of formulating resonated in a particular way at that moment.

I've been trying to look at this bhumi mapping system occasionally within myself (and also looking at the pictures on your site) for some time now, and the things you mentioned in this video may have given a nudge on the right direction. I can see the same things in the pictures as Daniel mentioned, but mostly it still feels like trying to read Braille (tactile writing system for the blind): I try it out sometimes but it feels impossible when I cant even tell when one letter begins and other ends. Still it too can be mastered.
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 11:42 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/13/16 11:42 PM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Jehanne S Peacock:
Still it too can be mastered.

Hear, hear!
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tom moylan, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 7:17 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 7:17 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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howdy kim,
i listened to you conversation but in the beginnning of it you and daniel mentioned some "reference documents"...could you point us to those please?

cheers

tom
Matt, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 7:26 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 7:26 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Kim Katami:
Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be

This subject reminds me a bit of Sam Harris's exposition about the revelations of personal self defense in the 90's brought about by MMA fighting.  Not that there is physical violence here, but that there is a claim of standards and a ring within which the claim is tested and in fact that setup was 'good' for the art of self defence.  Sorry if this metaphorical connection is muddled, but I hope the idea comes across.

Kim, I listened to your interview with Danial and was impressed by how gentle and civil you both were, it was refreshing.

I've got my biases and attachments to my 'pragmatic' practice and it's lineage so the question from your discussion with Danial of 'where did this bhumi system come from' caught my attention.  I only had time to listen to the interview once, so I'm not sure I heard the answer correctly.

What I think I heard, is that you got it from Sara, she got it from Yoganandya , he is in the third generation descended from Babagi, and Babagi got it from a guy that got it from a 'non physical master'.  This last part, 'non-physical master' caught my skeptical eye's attention. The audio conversation was a bit muddled, and I probably heard/remember this lineage question incorrectly so I hope you can briefly clarify the lineage of where the bhumi system came from here in your thread.

It's the last part that I find interesting, that this practice originates from a non-physical master.  That angle makes this thread more interestring.  It implies a method of transmission that is etheral and nebulous.  If the bhumi system ends up being useful and hopefully 'proven' in a useful scientific sense, then that nebuous and ethereal mechanism of getting useful stuff from 'non-physical masters will also deserve more examination.

Thank you for any clarification you can provide here on the lineage of this bhumi system, and also any additional comments you have about the practice of dealing with non-physical masters.
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 8:09 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 8:09 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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If the bhumi system ends up being useful and hopefully 'proven' in a useful scientific sense, then that nebuous and ethereal mechanism of getting useful stuff from 'non-physical masters will also deserve more examination.
Why? There is absolutely no logical relationship between the validity of Kim's system and what a "non physical master" actually is.

Consider these two alternatives:

1) Perhaps Kim's system is useful and it works reasonably well; nevertheless, the "non-physical master" is just a voice in someone's head. Whether heard during dreams, a trance state, or what you want, it might just be someone's subconscious.  Perhaps "non-physical masters" are just supersition - but a useful one, because those that believe in non-physical masters have access to parts of their subconscious minds that can provide brilliant and useful insights. emoticon 

2) Perhaps, on the other hand, Kim's system is complete bollocks, yet the non-physical "master" is still a real, actual manifestation of some kind of ghost-like entity. Perhaps non-physical "masters" exits, but they suck at meditation and any kind of practice really, they have nothing to teach, they are very bored, and they just play pranks on people who are receptive to contact with non-physical "masters" to get some fun out of it. emoticon 
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 8:27 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 8:25 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
On a related note, it is extremely common for scientists and mathematicians to dream of a brilliant solution to some problem during the night. Occasionally one wakes up and the dream-solution works wonderfully. More commonly, it turns out to be complete bullshit, or perhaps some useful intuition that doesn't work 100% well and needs some refining. A scientist will, most of the time, interpret the phenomenon as subconscious activity, and not as actual contact with some non-physical entities, because of his / her cultural background. But the phenomenon is essentially the same.

The only difference with Kim's claims here, from my point of view, is that the procedure to check an equation is more easily reproducible in a standard, repeatable, consistent way than reading Kim-style-bhumis from pictures of practitioners. The fact that the procedure incorporates ideas originating from e.g. dreams is by no means exclusive to spiritual practices, and it is essentially irrelevant if we want to estimate the validity of Kim's claims.

I am saying this to counter both the skeptic's fallacy ("non-physical masters do not exist, hence what Kim says must be BS") and the believer's fallacy ("non-physical masters are awesome, so Kim must be a great practitioner!").
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 9:25 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 9:25 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
tom moylan:
howdy kim,
i listened to you conversation but in the beginnning of it you and daniel mentioned some "reference documents"...could you point us to those please?

cheers

tom
Howdy ho Tom,

A whole bunch of stuff is linked here, texts, videos: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/02/stages-of-spiritual-attainment.html
matthew sexton:


I've got my biases and attachments to my 'pragmatic' practice and it's lineage so the question
from your discussion with Danial of 'where did this bhumi system come
from' caught my attention.  I only had time to listen to the interview
once, so I'm not sure I heard the answer correctly.

What I think I heard, is that you got it from Sara, she got it from Yoganandya , he is
in the third generation descended from Babagi, and Babagi got it from a
guy that got it from a 'non physical master'.  This last part,
'non-physical master' caught my skeptical eye's attention. The audio
conversation was a bit muddled, and I probably heard/remember this
lineage question incorrectly so I hope you can briefly clarify the
lineage of where the bhumi system came from here in your thread.

It's the last part that I find interesting, that this practice originates
from a non-physical master.  That angle makes this thread more
interestring.  It implies a method of transmission that is etheral and
nebulous.  If the bhumi system ends up being useful and hopefully
'proven' in a useful scientific sense, then that nebuous and ethereal
mechanism of getting useful stuff from 'non-physical masters will also
deserve more examination.

Thank you for any clarification you can provide here on the lineage of this bhumi system, and also any
additional comments you have about the practice of dealing with
non-physical masters.
Matthew,

>'where did this bhumi system come from' caught my attention.  I only had time to listen to the interview once, so I'm not sure I heard the answer correctly.

- Yes, I figured later one that this point didn't become clear in the discussion. A quote from the above linked page:

The origin of the Open Heart Bhumi Model

I first learned the bhumi model in early 2014 from a master called Thirumular, with whom I studied and worked with for several years. Thirumular is a well known mahasiddha best known as the author of a shaivite classic Thirumandiram. After continuing my studies with Machig Labdron and other masters who are known through the tantric buddhist and dzogchen traditions, this same model has served extremely well in mapping various stages of spiritual attainments.

I understand that working with non-physical masters is entirely foreign thing to most people. To some it might make sense in the context of tantric guru yoga, which is practiced widely in bth hindu and buddhist tantra. But even then receiving teachings from non-physical masters is not common, and may sound weird or incredible. Whether anyone believes it is possible or whether I got it from them or not, makes no difference though, whether the Open Heart Bhumi Model works or not.

>It's the last part that I find interesting, that this practice originates from a non-physical master.  That angle makes this thread more
interestring.  It implies a method of transmission that is etheral and nebulous.  If the bhumi system ends up being useful and hopefully
'proven' in a useful scientific sense, then that nebuous and ethereal mechanism of getting useful stuff from 'non-physical masters will also
deserve more examination.

- This is a good remark. Go here:
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/02/about-my-masters-and-sivakami.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/01/my-connection-with-living-buddhas.html

>Thank you for any clarification you can provide here on the lineage of this bhumi system, and also any additional comments you have about the practice of dealing with non-physical masters.

- Sara or Sivakami who was my main teacher (in the physical) wanted to make sure that her close students learn to make connection and are able to communicate with non-physical masters, if necessary. There are much more masters out of the physical than in physical, so learning how to get into this connection with one or several of them, is a crucial skill, if one wishes to practice with a mahasiddha (bhumis 11-13). I wish there were more mahasiddhas walking around among us but there simply aren't. And even if there are such masters in physical, they are often hard to access and study with. I'd love to have met with Chatral Rinpoche, for example, but to chance because of distance and life factors. However, anyone can tune in with a master and spend time with such a living buddha, even though the master is not physically present. This is the basic view of tantric guru yoga.
As you learn from what I have told in above texts, I've been in such a conenction since I was a kid even though it was only as a young adult that I got a name and concept for it. It's nothing special, in one sense, but at the same time nothing in my life has been more important than to be in connection with a spiritual master (as defined in the Open Heart Bhumi Model) or several of them. It has made all the difference. I have nothing but gratitude for them. And btw it' also because of them why I write here and do my work as a teacher in the first place.

- You can of course find a lot of materials from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition on this, from several angles, of the practice itself or about the topic of receiving teachings from deities or non-physical masters.
neko:


Consider these two alternatives:

1) Perhaps Kim's system is useful and it works reasonably well; nevertheless, the "non-physical master" is just a voice in someone's
head. Whether heard during dreams, a trance state, or what you want, it might just be someone's subconscious.  Perhaps "non-physical masters" are just supersition - but a useful one, because those that believe in non-physical masters have access to parts of their subconscious minds that can provide brilliant and useful insights. emoticon 

2)Perhaps, on the other hand, Kim's system is complete bollocks, yet the non-physical "master" is still a real, actual manifestation of some kind of ghost-like entity. Perhaps non-physical "masters" exits, but they suck at meditation and any kind of practice really, they have nothing to teach, they are very bored, and they just play pranks on people who arereceptive to contact with non-physical "masters" to get some fun out of it. emoticon 

Neko-chan,

>nevertheless, the "non-physical master" is just a voice in someone's head. Whether heard during dreams, a trance state, or what you want, it might just be someone's subconscious.

- I'm not trying to convince you but you clearly have no first hand experience what you say here. Have you? A master is a master. Have you ever met a mahasiddha in physical or non-physical? Subconscious imaginations and dreams are subconscious imaginations and dreams. If one can't tell the difference, one is inexperienced, a rookie.

>"master" is still a real, actual manifestation of some kind of ghost-like entity.

- If one can't tell the difference between a ghost or any other kind of subtle entity from a master, one is still inexperienced, a rookie.
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 11:04 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 11:04 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Kim:
- I'm not trying to convince you but you clearly have no first hand experience what you say here. Have you? A master is a master. Have you ever met a mahasiddha in physical or non-physical? Subconscious imaginations and dreams are subconscious imaginations and dreams. If one can't tell the difference, one is inexperienced, a rookie.
Whether I can tell a master is irrelevant. What is at stake here is whether you can.

I will tell you what I cannot do: I only know you from an online forum, and I am not able to tell from your posts whether you have met a master or you just think that you have met a master, when you were in fact just dreaming. 

Subconscious imaginations and dreams are subconscious imaginations and dreams. If one thinks they are real, he might still be wrong.
Matt, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 11:09 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 11:06 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 316 Join Date: 1/14/14 Recent Posts
neko:
If the bhumi system ends up being useful and hopefully 'proven' in a useful scientific sense, then that nebuous and ethereal mechanism of getting useful stuff from 'non-physical masters will also deserve more examination.
Why? There is absolutely no logical relationship between the validity of Kim's system and what a "non physical master" actually is.

Consider these two alternatives:

1) Perhaps Kim's system is useful and it works reasonably well; nevertheless, the "non-physical master" is just a voice in someone's head. Whether heard during dreams, a trance state, or what you want, it might just be someone's subconscious.  Perhaps "non-physical masters" are just supersition - but a useful one, because those that believe in non-physical masters have access to parts of their subconscious minds that can provide brilliant and useful insights. emoticon 

2) Perhaps, on the other hand, Kim's system is complete bollocks, yet the non-physical "master" is still a real, actual manifestation of some kind of ghost-like entity. Perhaps non-physical "masters" exits, but they suck at meditation and any kind of practice really, they have nothing to teach, they are very bored, and they just play pranks on people who are receptive to contact with non-physical "masters" to get some fun out of it. emoticon 


Responding to 'Why'?  I figure it's as if someone gives me winning lotto numbers, they have not proven anything yet, but they will have my attention.  Sure it might be hokum, but I'm into hearing what people have to say, even if I know about the lotto scams that can happen.

Hey, your (1) is a great system, maybe it really works, it's useful for some people.  That's a good reason to notice what's going on, ask questions about it.  I grant you that maybe this line of curiosity is doomed to produce good results, on average, over time.
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:24 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:24 PM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
neko:
Whether I can tell a master is irrelevant. What is at stake here is whether you can.

I will tell you what I cannot do: I only know you from an online forum, and I am not able to tell from your posts whether you have met a master or you just think that you have met a master, when you were in fact just dreaming. 

Subconscious imaginations and dreams are subconscious imaginations and dreams. If one thinks they are real, he might still be wrong.
OK. Well, I think I can emoticon But this question makes no difference in regards to OH Bhumi Model.

>Subconscious imaginations and dreams are subconscious imaginations and dreams. If one thinks they are real, he might still be wrong.

Fair enough.
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:41 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:41 PM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Kim Katami:

But this question makes no difference in regards to OH Bhumi Model.

I completely agree, that was the main point I wanted to make actually. Sorry I rubbed you the wrong way emoticon 
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:48 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/18/16 3:47 PM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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And actually: If your claims are correct, the idea that it might all come from your own subconscious, rather than someone else, might actually be flattering for you, rather than insulting, right? emoticon 
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 1:59 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 1:59 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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neko:
And actually: If your claims are correct, the idea that it might all come from your own subconscious, rather than someone else, might actually be flattering for you, rather than insulting, right? emoticon 
Oh, in that case I'd love it like a maggot rolling in shit.
neko, modified 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 3:42 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 3:42 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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Kim Katami:
neko:
And actually: If your claims are correct, the idea that it might all come from your own subconscious, rather than someone else, might actually be flattering for you, rather than insulting, right? emoticon 
Oh, in that case I'd love it like a maggot rolling in shit.

emoticon
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Babs _, modified 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 4:25 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 4:25 AM

RE: Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

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That was a joke...
Karl Eikrem, modified 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 3:44 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/19/16 3:44 PM

RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton!

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Paweł K:
for even more more genuine arhats vs arhats videos it is better to watch these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nRyCM3qwFM

same reason, same logic and and same outcome

How come, Pawel? It seems we have distincly different expriences of this dialogue, so please, enlighten me. 
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Psi, modified 7 Years ago at 5/20/16 7:50 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/20/16 7:50 PM

RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton!

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Paweł K:
for even more more genuine arhats vs arhats videos it is better to watch these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nRyCM3qwFM

same reason, same logic and and same outcome

Pawel, seriously,  it is arcats vs arcats....  

They are abiding in the here and meow...

emoticon



mu-ow
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Psi, modified 7 Years ago at 5/21/16 6:17 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/21/16 6:16 AM

RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton!

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My above post was in regards to Pawel's cat youtube video, not referencing the actual discussion linked in the Original Post...
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tom moylan, modified 7 Years ago at 5/23/16 3:59 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/23/16 3:58 AM

RE: More Arhat vs Arhat acton!

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If it is not realized and its visualizations themselves which are in control then we have all the rest of the mentally confused bunch, just running different set of programs, some typical, some atypical, some very close to realizing truth, etc.
Howdy Pawel,
I like your take on this.  Could the word 'visualization', that you use, be equivalent to 'Clearly Knowing'?

Also, you use the word 'programs'.  I like this.  Ajahn Succito, calls 'formations', 'programs'.  It is a good analogy these days.  Our habits and tendencies do operate mostly in the background without our concious control.  The concept of 'Buddha being in full control' of these processes might be a little off but I would be guessing.  Do you think it is being in control of these things that makes a Buddha or simply seeing them clearly?  Visualization is not without manipulation is it not?

cheers

tom

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