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RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment

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TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/22/17 5:18 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/22/17 11:55 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/22/17 10:19 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/21/17 11:34 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/22/17 11:53 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/22/17 12:38 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/22/17 12:44 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/22/17 12:54 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/22/17 7:36 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/22/17 10:22 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/22/17 2:16 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/22/17 2:16 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/22/17 5:14 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/22/17 9:08 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Ward Law 7/22/17 5:18 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment This very moment 7/22/17 7:13 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/22/17 9:50 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/23/17 8:12 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/23/17 10:15 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/23/17 10:33 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Superkatze one 7/23/17 11:49 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/24/17 2:29 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/24/17 3:01 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment T DC 7/24/17 7:34 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/24/17 8:08 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/24/17 8:25 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Ed Ge 7/25/17 1:35 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000 7/24/17 6:07 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/24/17 6:36 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/24/17 7:12 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000 7/24/17 7:51 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment shargrol 7/25/17 5:20 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000 7/25/17 8:00 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment junglist 7/25/17 8:04 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/25/17 10:40 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/25/17 11:34 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/25/17 11:56 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/25/17 12:09 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/25/17 12:20 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/25/17 12:29 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Ed Ge 7/25/17 12:39 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/26/17 1:41 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/26/17 1:39 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/26/17 1:40 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Lars 7/26/17 1:59 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/27/17 7:32 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000 7/25/17 1:35 PM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/26/17 9:28 AM
RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment Chris Marti 7/26/17 9:43 AM
TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 5:18 PM
Hey folks!

I am posting a writeup I made a few years ago on my path in meditation.  It's more of a narrative than a technical practice log, but I think it lays out well my general views on the path and how I came by them.  Questions or comments welcome!  Also, see Addendum to OP.

Cheers,
Tim
 
- Ok, file removed.  Just send me a PM if you want to read it.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 11:55 AM as a reply to T DC.
Thanks for posting that - very interesting!

TD C -- most folks I know who have had a 4th path experience see through the self realizing the deep meaning of not-self at that very juncture (that's a major emphasis of MCTB ). I wonder why you  didn't, thus having to wait for months to gain additional Vajryana experiences . Any theories?

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 10:19 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris - I'm glad you enjoyed it! 

Maybe the way I am describing these experiences can be misleading - certainly what I posted was not overly techinical, so based on that alone it may be hard to really get a sense of what occured at each path shift and how the mechanics were different.

At 4th path I emphasize seeing through thoughts, and then later I have the attainment 'seeing through the self'.  At 4th path, part and parcel with recognizing an emptiness beyond thought - seeing the falseness of thought - is understanding that thoughts of self are likewise false and empty.  You could probably say that at the A+P or stream entry we understand thoughts are not self, and at 4th path this also is true, but 4th path experience for me was domintaned by the opening up of closed circuit relative thought to witness a greater force beyond.  As this was the predominant characteristic this is what I focused the description on, but this is not to say it didn't have no-self ramifications. 

After witnessing emptyness as a contrast to thought - 4th path - subsequent attainments dealt with increasing understanding of emptiness and such.  The 'seeing through self' attainment described near the very end of the path was a complete destruction of the whole dualistic conceptual framework - far beyond the initial no-self insight of 4th path.  Certainly no-self understanding is increasing throughout the path, this last attainment just seems more explicitly related to that. 

I think the best description maybe comes from a Shizen Young video I saw a long time ago about 4th path where he talks about seeing the ox vs actually riding the ox.  4th path is seeing the ox, 'seeing through the self' is riding it.

Edit: To clarify - 4th path, seeing the ox, is seeing beyond the self very significantly for the first time.  'Seeing through the self', riding the ox, is blowing the whole self construct out of the water.  It's like we're in prison - at 4th we see beyond the wall and understand there is something beyond our limited self experience, at 'STTS' we just burn the whole prison down.

Cheers!

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/21/17 11:34 PM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
I think the best description maybe comes from a Shizen Young video I saw a long time ago about 4th path where he talks about seeing the ox vs actually riding the ox.  4th path is seeing the ox, 'seeing through the self' is riding it.

Thanks for this comment lol, that was useful.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 7:36 AM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
Questions or comments welcome!

Just my hunch -- my sense from reading this is while there are acutal insights in your history, these are also mixed in with a lot of mostly intellectual understandings. I would just like to comment: stay open to the possibility that there are experiential insights to come that might further deepen what I think are simple intellectual insights at this time.

I could be wrong, of course. Like you said, this isn't a practice log so there is a lot of detail missing from it. Just my hunch.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 10:22 AM as a reply to T DC.
Paweł K:
will you ever write something about what you actually mean by any of one line description you use?


This shows as a "reply to TDC", but appears to be in response to my one line comment immediately before your post. Or am I mistaken?

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 11:53 AM as a reply to T DC.
Edit: To clarify - 4th path, seeing the ox, is seeing beyond the self very significantly for the first time.  'Seeing through the self', riding the ox, is blowing the whole self construct out of the water.  It's like we're in prison - at 4th we see beyond the wall and understand there is something beyond our limited self experience, at 'STTS' we just burn the whole prison down.'


I have to respectfully disagree, TD C. 4th path, at least for me, blew the whole thing out of the water. Are you sure you're not confusing things? I would point you to shargrol's comment, which I believe is spot on:


Just my hunch -- my sense from reading this is while there are actual insights in your history, these are also mixed in with a lot of mostly intellectual understandings. I would just like to comment: stay open to the possibility that there are experiential insights to come that might further deepen what I think are simple intellectual insights at this time. 

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 12:38 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


I have to respectfully disagree, TD C. 4th path, at least for me, blew the whole thing out of the water. Are you sure you're not confusing things? I would point you to shargrol's comment, which I believe is spot on:



Maybe this comes back to the old 'what is fourth path?' debate.  Pesonally, 4th path for me also blew everything out of the water - it was a major major shift.  There was just much farther to go to get fully enlightened.

Openness to further progression is always good on the path, but we have to call our own experience.  I have been in a state of total perfection of experience - with no change in this basis - for going on two years.  And this is beyond enlightenment / the end of duality.  I'm just being frank.  No one has to accept that and debate is fine - that's why we're here - , but that is my view.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 12:44 PM as a reply to T DC.
Here's to hoping you are open to other possbilities.

emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 12:54 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Openness to further progression is always good on the path, but we have to call our own experience.  I have been in a state of total perfection of experience - with no change in this basis - for going on two years.  And this is beyond enlightenment / the end of duality.  I'm just being frank.  No one has to accept that and debate is fine - that's why we're here - , but that is my view.


TD C: It would really help for you to describe in some detail what these terms mean:

- total perfection of experience
- beyond enlightenment

Until we can get experiential descriptions of what they're like and thus related definitions we can't really communicate about them.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 2:16 PM as a reply to T DC.
Addendum to OP

To be clear, it's interesting to discuss enlightenment, but there's a lot more going on in the write up I posted.  Specifically, there's a theory / model for the intersection of MCTB with Tibetan maps, and Chogyam Trungpa's own Hinayana Mahayana Vajrayana attainment model.  I would rather debate focus on these aspects.

Personally I see little overall benefit from discussing the intracacies of final enlightenment.  The main benefit of discussing attainment is to allow one to optimize their practice in order to reach it, and as such it is only ever really beneficial to discuss those attainments that lie immediately ahead on the path. 

So is it pointless to debate how enlightened I am?  Probably yes.  Could we perhaps have an interesting discussion based on the points in paragraph one?  I do hope so!

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 2:16 PM as a reply to T DC.
Sidestep  emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 5:14 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Honestly, best wishes TDC, but this is a bit of a sidestep... and even a contradiction to say that we should be discussing Theravada, Hinayana, Mahayana and Tantrayana models but then also say "Personally I see little overall benefit from discussing the intracacies of final enlightenment". 

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 5:18 PM as a reply to T DC.
My impression is that this is a largely fictional narrative.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 7:13 PM as a reply to Ward Law.
TDC, 

The narrative you posted really brings up important questions of 1 )  " Is it possible to be 4th path without the ability to clearly articulate your sensate experience of it or the entirety of your path? " and 2)  " Is it necessary to articulate the inner knowing at all? " 

I would say the answer to #1 as it stands in the dharma overground world is you better be able to articulate your experiences well or people aren't going to take your thoughts of attainment very seriously or they will poke holes in it.  Not necessarily in the attempt to disparage you, but in the spirit that they would you to examine your experience and be honest with yourself. 

#2  No. 

From what I have seen from the people who post here, reading texts, and being in the presence of "enlightened beings"  I would say your narrative doesn't really pass the sniff test. I think if you are 4th path, you know it and don't have doubts.  Maybe I am wrong ( doubt), but I am just starting on this path.   I appreciate you writing it and trying to make your truth known to others.  That's not to say you aren't where you think you are on the path.  

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 9:08 PM as a reply to shargrol.
But ultimately, no big deal either way... it really doesn't matter what anyone knows or doesn't know. If you are living a good life --- or even just surviving in this crazy world --- that's the important thing. Frankly, a lot of this path and attainment talk rubs me the wrong way. 

May all beings be calm and at ease
May all beings be healthy, rested and whole
May all being be safe and free from all forms of danger
May all beings bravely face the difficulties in their life
while wisely avoiding unnecessary problems

May all beings awaken in every moment
May all beings be sane and free from suffering
May all beings be happy

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/22/17 9:50 PM as a reply to This very moment.
This very moment:
TDC, 

The narrative you posted really brings up important questions of 1 )  " Is it possible to be 4th path without the ability to clearly articulate your sensate experience of it or the entirety of your path? " and 2)  " Is it necessary to articulate the inner knowing at all? " 

I would say the answer to #1 as it stands in the dharma overground world is you better be able to articulate your experiences well or people aren't going to take your thoughts of attainment very seriously or they will poke holes in it.  Not necessarily in the attempt to disparage you, but in the spirit that they would you to examine your experience and be honest with yourself. 

#2  No. 

From what I have seen from the people who post here, reading texts, and being in the presence of "enlightened beings"  I would say your narrative doesn't really pass the sniff test. I think if you are 4th path, you know it and don't have doubts.  Maybe I am wrong ( doubt), but I am just starting on this path.   I appreciate you writing it and trying to make your truth known to others.  That's not to say you aren't where you think you are on the path.  


Good points and I think that is really the take away here - people want technical details, which I can't really blame them for.  That said enlightenment and attainment states are, at least at a higher level, very literally beyond conceptual description so that's a factor.  And I didn't put too much detail in because to detail every attainment would be a massive undertaking - far beyond the scope of this write up. 

And yes, ultimately it just comes back to yourself.  We're not all here just to argue about attainment, I think anyone who is really dedicated to the path is #1 doing it so they can live a better life.  Which is part of the reason the in-person pragmatic dharma meet up idea (see SPUDS) is so cool - the best of both: friends and attainment!  emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/23/17 8:12 AM as a reply to T DC.
Good points and I think that is really the take away here - people want technical details, which I can't really blame them for.  That said enlightenment and attainment states are, at least at a higher level, very literally beyond conceptual description so that's a factor.  And I didn't put too much detail in because to detail every attainment would be a massive undertaking - far beyond the scope of this write up.  

To be fair and honest with you TD C, the takeaway here is that we all need to be brutally honest in pursuit of the path. Awakening requires it. It's uber courageous to miss on a diagnosis and 'fess up to it. The real value of community/sanga is its ability to identify one's confusion about their practice and to point it out to us - this has enormous value, IMHO. It's also one of the values of having a good teacher.

I wish you all the best on your journey.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/23/17 10:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

To be fair and honest with you TD C, the takeaway here is that we all need to be brutally honest in pursuit of the path. Awakening requires it. It's uber courageous to miss on a diagnosis and 'fess up to it. The real value of community/sanga is its ability to identify one's confusion about their practice and to point it out to us - this has enormous value, IMHO. It's also one of the values of having a good teacher.


Ok Chris, here's a thought experiment -

If you are say 4th path, then your experience is limited to that slice of the path up to 4th path.  You have no actual experience with territory beyond 4th, and thus your ideas about the territory beyond, including enlightenment, is based on preconception.  And realistically, preconception is wrong more often than not, especially when it deals with future attainment states.

So if you're at 4th, and I'm enlightened, we literally cannot see eye to eye - you have no genuine basis to descide whether or not I'm wrong, aside from what you may have read or thought up, which may or may not be accurate. 

As for having a good teacher, I agree it is important.  But how many fully enlightened teachers do you know of that could confirm my expereince?  And they would need to be fully enlightened in order to confirm someone elses full enlightenment, as stated above. 

I actually know of three teachers who are enlightened, and I'm sure their all busy AF.  So I haven't talked to them (well I talked to one of them), but I have read what they have to say about the path - that's how I got to where I am.  I read what teachers had to say, compared it to my experience, then worked off what they had to say about progression and future states in order to progress.  The idea that one would need enlightenment confirmed is slightly ridiculous in and of itself, but how I describe it actually matched well with how others describe it - which I noted in that write up.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/23/17 10:33 AM as a reply to T DC.
Sincere best wishes to you, TD C.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/23/17 11:49 AM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
I actually know of three teachers who are enlightened, and I'm sure their all busy AF.  So I haven't talked to them (well I talked to one of them), but I have read what they have to say about the path - that's how I got to where I am.  I read what teachers had to say, compared it to my experience, then worked off what they had to say about progression and future states in order to progress.



Can you please name those teachers, could be interesting. emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 2:29 PM as a reply to T DC.
Ad hominem attacks!?  Plagarism!??  Ok, watch me engage in debate!


The DhO generally recognises the idea of differences in attainment - can stream entry well judge 4th path?  Is 4th path liable to be talking over the heads of those just past the A+P?  Answers - 1. No, 2. Yes.  Is this controversial at all?  I think not! 


Chris intimated he attained 4th path, and he also intimated his ability to judge final enlightenment, so when I wrote that someone 'say, at 4th path' could not judge final enlightenment, not only was this not ad hominem whatsoever, it was a logical argument based on difference in attainment - which the DhO explicitly recognises - as part of a debate. 


And plagarism!?  Are you kidding me?  Did you read what I wrote, for one?  Are you saying Buddhist ideas are intellectual copyright?  If you are going to accuse me of plagarism you had better back it up, or redact the statement.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 3:01 PM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
Ad hominem attacks!?  Plagarism!??  Ok, watch me engage in debate!

I'm just a complete newb, but even I can see a fair amount of clinging to views/story, and suffering in your posts. If you're fully enlightened why are you clinging, and why are you agitated by being called a plagarist (or feeling a need to debate all this in the first place)?

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 6:07 PM as a reply to T DC.
Surangama Sutra FTW!

"In the Surangama Sutra, where the Buddha warned of fifty demonic states that unmindful spiritual practitioners might fall prey to, he spoke of the possibility of how... 'that good man [or woman]... greedily seeks skilful means [to further spirituality]. Then, Mara [the chief heavenly demon], having awaited to take this convenience, [sends a] flying spirit [demonic ghost] to possess this [or another] person. With one's mouth preaching the Dharma of the Sutras, this person is not aware, that he [or she] is possessed by a demon, self-proclaiming to have attained unsurpassable Nirvana."
source: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=6,11253,0,0,1,0

Regarding Chapter 8 of Surangama Sutra, it pretty much boils down to "But if he considers himself a sage, then a demon of ... does this and that and fucks you over totally, also eventually sending you down to Avicii hell for aeons of punishment, such as anal torture"

This of course applies to most, if not all, practitioners on this forum. You're all too eager to claim this and that , but can't even handle chili on your wieners emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 6:36 PM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
Re: "chili on your wieners"...

Are we talking Coney Island Chili Dogs or jalapenos on the johnson? Although I am without greed or aversion, I would like many of the former and none of the latter. emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 7:12 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:

Are we talking Coney Island Chili Dogs or jalapenos on the johnson?


Does it really matter as long as they make you one with everything?

I'm so sorry. I'll see myself out.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 7:34 PM as a reply to Lars.
Lars - Plagarism is a serious accusation, enlightened or not.

To the moderators:  Can you please close or delete this thread?  I would very much appreciate it.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 7:51 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Re: "chili on your wieners"...

Are we talking Coney Island Chili Dogs or jalapenos on the johnson? Although I am without greed or aversion, I would like many of the former and none of the latter. emoticon


Habaneros chopped in water, poured on your pee-wee. It's a direct indicator of how much shit you still have in your subtle body, as any aversion manifesting seems to correlate with how much resistance the subtle winds face when moving. It's a great indicator of realization, as you really cannot intellectualize your way around it.

It is said about Avadhutas (~ Nyonpas) that:

"They have actually realized; they care for nothing, feel
nothing done to the body, care not for heat, cold,
danger, or anything. They sit still, enjoying the bliss
of Atman, and though red-hot coals burn the body, they feel them not
"
source: http://www.nonduality.com/ag.htm

This is the highest standard of liberation.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 8:08 PM as a reply to T DC.
There once was a swami from Barrow
Who's downfall was one habanero
Put it on his pee wee
And like TD C
He didn't get back straight and narrow

emoticon

BTW - in Chicago one cannot put ketchup on the pee wee.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/24/17 8:25 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

BTW - in Chicago one cannot put ketchup on the pee wee.

so true, too funny!  and any relish must be bright green emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/25/17 5:20 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
"this chili pee wee thing looks like something someone with higher tolerance to this kind of pain would do to seduce weak minded into submission and to have control over them"

I basically agree. 

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/25/17 8:00 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
Paweł K:
this chili pee wee thing looks like something someone with higher tolerance to this kind of pain would do to seduce weak minded into submission and to have control over them. Through practice this specific trick it should be actually pretty easy. People done worse and more challenging things for power, fame, money, etc. even for simple recognition

besides whole idea is un-Zen
I believe in judgement of my Zen-O-Meter, in never failed me and if it says it is 'meh...' then it surely it
though that said Theravada is not that much Zen either... <LOL>

Considering the fact that you're openly claiming pratyekabuddhahood, this is pretty hilarious. I haven't claimed anything nor am I attracting followers . I'm just pointing out that instead of runnign your mouths like the dharma raping MLECCHA that you are, you could actually go out and try how stable your so called realization truly is...

To prove my point, all you have to do is read some history books and learn about the lack of general anesthesia and other nice modern inventions, which, according to mainstream view of history, didn't exist during Buddha's time. That should give you an idea of a) the suffering people faced back then b) the value of overcoming that suffering with real Dharma and c) what is the standard for realization. To elaborate even further, that level of realization gave birth to the greatest literary works ever created, from Vedas to Dao De Jing, qualifies you as a KING OF KINGS, as the knowledge, purity and virtue gained through penance made even royalty kneel down before you. All you guys can do is attract the spoils of a society corrupt to its core, that is, people too lazy to do their learning and too weak to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of truth.

Why would I want any of these subhumans as a follower? Why would I openly claim anything as none of you have the capacity to judge my attainments anyway? What would I do with your recognition? Nothing. I shit on your traditions, piss on your teachers and cum on your attainments with every single god, buddha, bodhisattva, demon and saint on my side, as you won't see me circle jerking on BATGAP, preaching on some Youtube channel or writing books about spiritual practice. I'm too busy liberating myself from this abomination AKA material existence, and so should you be too.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/25/17 8:04 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000:
Paweł K:
this chili pee wee thing looks like something someone with higher tolerance to this kind of pain would do to seduce weak minded into submission and to have control over them. Through practice this specific trick it should be actually pretty easy. People done worse and more challenging things for power, fame, money, etc. even for simple recognition

besides whole idea is un-Zen
I believe in judgement of my Zen-O-Meter, in never failed me and if it says it is 'meh...' then it surely it
though that said Theravada is not that much Zen either... <LOL>

Considering the fact that you're openly claiming pratyekabuddhahood, this is pretty hilarious. I haven't claimed anything nor am I attracting followers . I'm just pointing out that instead of runnign your mouths like the dharma raping MLECCHA that you are, you could actually go out and try how stable your so called realization truly is...

To prove my point, all you have to do is read some history books and learn about the lack of general anesthesia and other nice modern inventions, which, according to mainstream view of history, didn't exist during Buddha's time. That should give you an idea of a) the suffering people faced back then b) the value of overcoming that suffering with real Dharma and c) what is the standard for realization. To elaborate even further, that level of realization gave birth to the greatest literary works ever created, from Vedas to Dao De Jing, qualifies you as a KING OF KINGS, as the knowledge, purity and virtue gained through penance made even royalty kneel down before you. All you guys can do is attract the spoils of a society corrupt to its core, that is, people too lazy to do their learning and too weak to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of truth.

Why would I want any of these subhumans as a follower? Why would I openly claim anything as none of you have the capacity to judge my attainments anyway? What would I do with your recognition? Nothing. I shit on your traditions, piss on your teachers and cum on your attainments with every single god, buddha, bodhisattva, demon and saint as my witness. You won't see me circle jerking on BATGAP, preaching on some Youtube channel or writing books about spiritual practice. I'm too busy liberating myself from this abomination AKA material existence, and so should you be too.

Wonderful. There had to be a purpose to all this. Thank you for this inspiration.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/25/17 10:40 AM as a reply to junglist.
This has become the satire thread  emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
Answer
7/25/17 11:34 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000:

Habaneros chopped in water, poured on your pee-wee. It's a direct indicator of how much shit you still have in your subtle body, as any aversion manifesting seems to correlate with how much resistance the subtle winds face when moving. It's a great indicator of realization, as you really cannot intellectualize your way around it.


All joking aside if this is an indicator of realization, then i'm a fully enlightened buddha (and i'm sure there are plenty who would point out that it's not the case). One of the things that led me back to practise was experiencing incredible pain after an abdominal hernia surgery that "went a little wrong".

Pain medication didn't help much (even strong narcotics) so I experimented with all sorts of things. That included perscription strength capsaicin cream, which is basically bear spray in the form of a cream. It produces a feeling of being on fire, which then eventually subsides after about 30 minutes and is replaced with numbness. When showering to remove it, it sometimes.... gets where it isn't supposed to be.

I can tell you from unfortunate experience that that you can learn to experience "Habaneros chopped in water, poured on your pee-wee" without being strongly effected by the experience. If anything watching your body react can be amusing once you learn the trick of it. And i'm no arahant, not even close. As well, even if you don't learn the trick of detachment from the experience, eventually the nerves become numbed after repeated exposure and go from "oh my god i'm on fire!" to "oh, there's some tingling". Not the best test of awareness.   emoticon

This is now officially the most odd buddhism thread i've ever seen.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 11:56 AM as a reply to Lars.
Remember all the to do about walking on hot coals or sitting in a sweat lodge for days and days? These "tests" are about power and control, not about awakening.

JMHO


RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 12:09 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah I realized recently that those yogis you see in pictures with their heads buried in the ground while upside down for a day or two are "just" doing the formless jhanas (probably the 8th jhana). Impressive, but not as mind bending as it appears to someone who isn't aware of the jhanas.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 12:20 PM as a reply to Lars.
Recall how the historical Buddha did all those self-denial and self-torture type practices for many years and got really, really good at them -- but realized eventually that they got him to nowhere he wanted or needed to go. Something else entirely was the proper path - the Middle Way.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 12:29 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
True, but he also learned valuable lessons from those experiences. He used the jhanas on the night of his final enlightenment, and those were taught to him by the two old ascetics. That said I completely agree on the middle way thing, i've found recently that whenever I hit a bump I just have to ask myself if i'm in the middle or not. If i'm trying too hard, or not enough etc. It's not just ascetic versus hedonist, it applies to pretty much everything.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 12:39 PM as a reply to Lars.
Can anyone recommend a good source to read about the life of the Buddha? By good meaning accesible, accurate and concise enough.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 1:35 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Remember all the to do about walking on hot coals or sitting in a sweat lodge for days and days? These "tests" are about power and control, not about awakening.

JMHO


As if you knew anything about power, control or awakening 3------------------------------B ------ " ' - - .``   *splash"  . You do these things to learn, to test your limits, to grow and find weak spots in your practice. It's not about chili, it's about being willing to experiment with all kinds of stimuli. Maybe for some, chili on one's dick ain't nuthin', but something else IS. Every weakness you have will be used against you, so it's better that you discover them yourself instead of someone else... You turn every rock until there's nothing to turn. It's either all or nothing, no compromises, total fucking dedication to the discipline, no more no less.

Pawel K: I know damn well that you know what you're talking about. There's no beef, I was just responding to the accusation you made.

Others:
Regarding what Buddha did or said, you know nothing at all. People can barely understand one another when speaking, let alone over a medium based on symbols. Now you're claiming to understand what was written 2000 years ago without having even the slightest clue about the context in which these things were written. You see in these texts what you project on them, nothing else. A fundamental problem of communication base on language.

If you're still asking yourself whether or not your pushing too much, you're still operating on gross levels of existence.

The name of the game is harmony and discord, based on a framework of reality where awareness is the fundamental non-substance. Every point of existence vibrates at a certain frequency, from subatomic particles to sentient beings. To follow the noble 8-fold path you harmonize every aspect of your existence to achieve the goal of liberation, going all the way from gross phenomena to subtler and subtler things. Dukkha is discord. With discord comes contradiction. With contradiction, comes hesitation and WHAM YOU FUCKED UP! This is the essence of prajna-wisdom, AKA no-mind. To wield the sword of Taia ( check out "The Unfettered Mind by Takuan Soho) your whole being needs to resonate with the truth. Go fuck yourself and then take a look at the tree of life from Kabbalah for further reference.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/25/17 1:35 PM as a reply to Ward Law.
Ward Law:
My impression is that this is a largely fictional narrative.
My impression is this is high level trolling.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 9:28 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
As if you knew anything about power, control or awakening 3------------------------------B ------ " ' - - .``   *splash"  .

Why make assumptions - why not just ask? Why foist your anger on everyone?


RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 1:41 PM as a reply to Lars.
True, but he also learned valuable lessons from those experiences. 

Yes! He learned that those practices didn't lead to his awakening. We can see his lesson - the point of it - and thus avoid the pain and suffering those practices cause. Real practice, the middle way, causes its own kind of deep pain and suffering. No need to add any unnecessary extras to it. If you have teacher or a dharma "friend" who's telling you that unnecessary pain and suffering in the form of self-torture are needed on the path you should take a few steps back and ponder.

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 9:43 AM as a reply to Supreme Maharishi Bhumi 1000.
You do these things to learn, to test your limits, to grow and find weak spots in your practice. It's not about chili, it's about being willing to experiment with all kinds of stimuli. Maybe for some, chili on one's dick ain't nuthin', but something else IS. Every weakness you have will be used against you, so it's better that you discover them yourself instead of someone else... You turn every rock until there's nothing to turn. It's either all or nothing, no compromises, total fucking dedication to the discipline, no more no less. 


Well, I suppose that's one way to proceed. I found that my own life was chock full of pain and sufferering to use in my practice. I have four children and a full time job and all of that provided lots of ways to learn how to observe, test myself and learn from my pain and suffering. No need to put habanero chili sauce on my pee wee or stick my head in an oven or even to poke my skin with needles.

emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 1:39 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
True, but he also learned valuable lessons from those experiences. 

Yes! He learned that those practices didn'd lead to his awakening. We can see his lesson - the point of it - and thus avoid the pain and suffering those practices cause. Real practice, the middle way, causes its own kind of deep pain and suffering. No need to add any unnecessary extras to it. If you have teacher or a dharma "friend" who's telling you that unnecessary pain and suffering in the form of self-torture are needed on the path you should take a few steps back and ponder.

I'm regretting removing a line from my previous quote regarding the two ascetics, I never meant to imply that ascetic practises are good, or that the jhanas themselves are the end of the path. Yes Gotama recognized that the ascetic path was unprofitable and found the middle way. He also recognized that while the jhanas were useful in developing his skills, unlike the two ascetics he didn't see them as the end of the practise. That said he still used them as needed, including while sitting under the bodhi tree, but unlike the ascetics he didn't stop at the 7th/8th jhana and consider his work done.

I'm not trying to speak for the buddha here or act as some historical/scriptural authority, it's simply my (admittedly limited) understanding of the events that happened so long ago. And yes, I need to develop that understanding further by regularly doing the jhanas myself instead of just thinking about how someone else used them (more walk, less talk).

If i'm totally missing the point free to poke more holes in what i've said.  I think this discussion has gotten a little over dramatic, but there's some good stuff in here and in the subsequent Bhumi 1000 post.   emoticon

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 1:40 PM as a reply to Lars.
I see no reason at all to poke holes in your comments, Lars. I think you sound very reasonable and level headed. I wish you well in your practice. 

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/26/17 1:59 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Originally my intent in coming to this site was to deal specifically with the pain issue I was encountering (previously i've generally avoided teachers etc and did my own thing). After getting some help with that i'm seeing that instead this site is more useful for cutting away ego attachment and bad practises. Every time I think i've attained or achieved something someone kindly scolds me for it and I have to consider whether I was correct (or if it even matters). In some cases I realized I wasn't so far off, in a few I was just dead wrong. I used to get this scolding occasionally from the sutras, but it seems more consistent and personalised on a forum like this. If you think i'm reasonable and level headed you caught me on a good day, though I appreciate the kind words.

So, continue poking holes. Not that I even need to ask Bhumi to do so. If I held up a finger he'd probably cut it off.    ;)

RE: TDC's Journey to Enlightenment
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7/27/17 7:32 AM as a reply to Lars.
It's all good. Even the Bhumi (who has apparently left the building) has said some useful things. We can all use a good comeuppance now and then, so as to keep us humble.