Dark Night?

Jamie Mitchell, modified 6 Years ago at 8/5/17 4:42 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/5/17 4:23 PM

Dark Night?

Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/23/17 Recent Posts
Hello all,

I'm looking to get some input and perspective on my recent experiences.
I posted awhile back about some pleasnt physical sensations I was having while sitting - tingles, goosebumps, chills, almost a vortex. I was told this is piti, and it was suggested to me that this may be the Arrising and Passing stage. I was able to cause these experiences while out and about in  my day to day life as well. Quite pleasent. I addition, right around the time when this began happening, I had a month or two or real strength, positivity, motivation, and hope for the future. I have struggled with depression, hopelessness, and suicidal feelings for about a decade now, but during this period, it felt like maybe they were behind me. I was not naive enough to think that was for good, but I had hopes. I was being kind, caring, and outgoing to my friends, and generally feeling like a supportive and loving person. At this point, I was meditating pretty regularly.


This has changed. The sensations have faded, to a fairly signifcant extent. They still are there, but they have become less frequent. The darkness that sometimes consumes my mental landscape in back - the hopelessness, and all the rest mentioned above. For some reason, my meditation practice has become infrequent, with long gaps between sittings at times. I have also been experiences waves of anxiety, blushing, heat, tension, when faced with an emotional challenge, or a stress. Generally just feeling very odd. Now, there are so many variables to my mental life that its very hard for me to assign causation to any of this. My medication doseages change, my career is volatile, with many ups and downs. None of this is new to me, unfortuantely, but here it is again.

In addition, I have moved to tears an almost unbeleviable amount of times in the last 6 weeks. Sometimes 2 to 3 times a day, mostly while listening to music. About two months ago, I cried for almost half an hour straight after my lady friend sang a song to me while we were lying in bed. This isn't necessarily unpleasant, I have always been an emotional person, and value intense emotions when they come, being moved to tears the frequently is certainly new.

Finally, in the last month, my intrest in sex has waned suprisingly. I won't go into too many details here, don't know what's appropriate, but suffice to say thoughts and actions have become less frequent.

However, even with the skepticism with which I view my own stage on the path, and my doubt of whether or not I am imagining these things, I must ask - is this the Dark Night? Is this simply my own issues coming to the surface yet again? Is it impossible to tell?

I am grateful for any insight or perspective, from anyone.

Many thanks,
j
C P M, modified 6 Years ago at 8/6/17 11:34 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/6/17 11:25 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 218 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent Posts
I’ve always had a hard time identifying the causes for my psychological ups and downs – is it my meditation practice? Is it just my personality and brain wiring? External events?

I think these things interact, probably in complicated ways.

I had a month or two or real strength, positivity, motivation, and hope for the future. I have struggled with depression, hopelessness, and suicidal feelings for about a decade now, but during this period, it felt like maybe they were behind me. I was not naive enough to think that was for good, but I had hopes. I was being kind, caring, and outgoing to my friends, and generally feeling like a supportive and loving person. At this point, I was meditating pretty regularly.

I can also identify with this, I can have long spells of feeling very positive and strong, and think, yes, this is really me, this is who I am. It also sounds like a regular meditation practice was beneficial to you.

As I have continued and intensified my mediation practice, the patterns are getting clearer to me now. Meditation is now the predominant influence in the fluctuations on my mood/outlook. This is because I am putting a significant amount of time to daily practice.

I follow the breath for my practice. Some say this protects you from the experience of the dark night, but for me, it does not.

Now, there are so many variables to my mental life that its very hard for me to assign causation to any of this. My medication doseages change, my career is volatile, with many ups and downs.

It sounds like you have a lot a variables to consider, meditation being one of them. In the past I have been depressed, and I found I would easily cry out of sadness. Also, during this period I took an SSRI, and found it highly effective for my mood, but also had the side effect of killing my sex drive – this is a common side effect of these meds.

At this point in my life, I will enter uncharacteristic emotional states that are characterized by intense thankfulness, joy, awe, sacredness. I can see the powerful positive states are resulting from meditation. The pattern is I will later fall into unpleasant mental states a day or two later. I’ll also go through phases just general OK-ness and balance, maybe this is equanimity.
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 6 Years ago at 8/20/17 6:54 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/20/17 6:54 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Jamie Mitchell:
However, even with the skepticism with which I view my own stage on the path, and my doubt of whether or not I am imagining these things, I must ask - is this the Dark Night? Is this simply my own issues coming to the surface yet again? Is it impossible to tell?

Yes, it is dark night. Dark night often manifests by bringing up personal issues to the surface. And dark night won't be solved by thinking or doing something about these issues (which is not to say there isn't value in doing that, of course there is).

If you pay attention to the quality of your sensations while in dark night, you should find that there is a hard-to-define sensation that something is "off" with your perception. A kind of itchy background restlessness, as if simply perceiving things was uncomfortable.

This pheonomenon (which for me is the technical definition of "dukkha") is actually always there, but during dark night it comes into the foreground of attention, in a big way. This makes life suck, but it's also a good opportunity to pay attention to it. Getting rid of this is, by far, the most important purpose of my meditation practice.

Now that you know you got it, what are you going to do about it? I think the default suggestion, in this forum, is that you meditate your ass off until you reach equanimity. (Though sometimes, when the unpleasant phenomena are very very intense, other recommendations are given.)
thumbnail
tom moylan, modified 6 Years ago at 8/21/17 4:54 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/21/17 4:54 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
howdy jamie,
sorry to hear that everything is not going swimmingly for you at the moment.

much of what you write is very familiar to me and so to the extent that it helps i will try to encourage you to keep at it with a steady, but not forced pressure.  in MCTB daniel does a good job of warning us about "THE DARK NIGHT" and some of us, due to our basic makeup and tendencies, focus upon that and make it more real than it needs to be.  i'm one of those. its an almost masochistic magnetism.

these practices work.  the "harder" or more "intensively" one works, however, the more destabilizing they tend to be.  to some extent this is part and parcel of change but in insight practice it is really noticable as it affects our fundamental being in the world.

pushing hard and being goal oriented will get results but will be a bumpier ride.

after many years of successful hard core insight practices (mostly noting and free flow obeservation) i reached a place where the moods and tides of emotions could be experienced much more objectively and with less pull or involvement.

i read culadasa's book and used that in  a couple of retreats as a framework and found, only much later, that the pacing and general attitude which he puts forth in his book are, to me, less destabilizing and less goal fixated and thus for people who tend toward self-criticism seems to be a more comfortable route.

bruno seems pretty sure that you passed the A&P and are in the dark night.  he may be right.  keep going, don't push too hard, you will have ups and downs but the long term trend will be toward peace and acceptance and deepened wisdom.

good luck and don't forget to smell the roses, its not required to grab the thorns but even those won't hurt for long.
thumbnail
ivory, modified 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 12:28 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 12:25 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 199 Join Date: 9/11/14 Recent Posts
Jamie Mitchell:
Hello all,

Now, there are so many variables to my mental life that its very hard for me to assign causation to any of this. My medication doseages change, my career is volatile, with many ups and downs. None of this is new to me, unfortuantely, but here it is again

Get clear on this. It takes time and patience but insight is required to find your way out of the darkness. Pay attention to which thoughts are causing the emotions. A guide that maps out the common causes of suffering is an invaluable tool because it can be difficult to see your own blind spots.

Common causes of dark night:
- wanting reality to be different than it is
- wanting to be different than you are
- social isolation
- being irresponsible
- addictions

There are beliefs or ideas about how you think things should be and behaviors that reinforce those beliefs. Ultimately you are going to have to accept realitiy as it is and stop feeding your patterns. Take good care of yourself and be responsible.

Good luck.
junglist, modified 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 3:50 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 3:50 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 232 Join Date: 1/25/17 Recent Posts
ivory:

Common causes of dark night:
- wanting reality to be different than it is
- wanting to be different than you are
- social isolation
- being irresponsible
- addictions


These causes sound like they might some treatment to untangle them and it sounds like the first two are inseparable from and intention to solve the last three problems. For example:

"I am socially isolated!/irresponsible!/addicted! I don't want my reality to be like this! I don't want to be like this!" 

Do you have any suggestions?
Jinxed P, modified 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 9:27 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 9:27 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 347 Join Date: 8/29/11 Recent Posts
tom moylan:

after many years of successful hard core insight practices (mostly noting and free flow obeservation) i reached a place where the moods and tides of emotions could be experienced much more objectively and with less pull or involvement.

i read culadasa's book and used that in  a couple of retreats as a framework and found, only much later, that the pacing and general attitude which he puts forth in his book are, to me, less destabilizing and less goal fixated and thus for people who tend toward self-criticism seems to be a more comfortable route.


Tom, 

Did you ever hit SE from doing noting practices? I remember reading a thread years ago, about how you were in EQ, but don't remember if you ever busted through. The reason I ask, is that Culadasa has in the past referred  to his stage 10 of shamatha as equaling EQ, although I've always suspected they were much different, and that stage 10 in Culadasa's map would be a different and probably more pleasurable and 'higher' state. Also, there seems to be some incongruence here as people can start getting cessations in stage 7 of TMI.

So I was wondering if for someone who has reached EQ or steam entry, what they gained from doing TMI, that one didn't already acquire from noting and the progress of insight.
thumbnail
ivory, modified 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 10:41 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 10:40 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 199 Join Date: 9/11/14 Recent Posts
I could have clarified my response further. Ultimately dark night is a series of symptoms with corresponding causes. One is most likely to experience depression and anxiety surrounding the fact that nothing is satisfying and nothing lasts. One may also experience confusion as to who one is. That's basically dark night.

But each symptom in dark night has causes.

Dark night resembles depression a great deal. I believe that people experience depression on top of dark night. I, for example, was depressed because I drove myself to isolation. We need social interaction for a basic level of mental health.

Responsibility is a complex topic. But if one is not responsible anxiety arises. In dark night, recklessness is totally common as one resists the process of dissolution. Anxiety is a byproduct of irresponsibility (what happens if you don’t pay your bills for a few months?).

Addictions such as drugs, drinking, and smoking all result in highs. But what comes up must come down (depression). That gets mixed in with dark night symptoms adding fuel to the fire.

That said, because dark night is so powerful, it can be difficult to pick apart the symptoms and causes. It takes time and diligence to gain clarity.
thumbnail
ivory, modified 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 10:52 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/26/17 10:46 AM

RE: Dark Night?

Posts: 199 Join Date: 9/11/14 Recent Posts
junglist:

These causes sound like they might some treatment to untangle them


Treatment is recommended, it helped me a great deal.

junglist:
and it sounds like the first two are inseparable from and intention to solve the last three problems. For example:

"I am socially isolated!/irresponsible!/addicted! I don't want my reality to be like this! I don't want to be like this!" 

Do you have any suggestions?


It can get tricky. While I wasn't suggesting that one needs to be accepting that they're isolated, irresponsible, and addicted; it's true in a sense. You cannot make true change without some basic acceptance of the situation. You can't get "over there" if you don't acknowledge that are "here." You can only take the step that right in front of you. In dark night, you baby step your way out just like you would in quick sand.

Also, one's motives have to be pure. It's all about motives. The best motive one can have on this journey of dissolution is that of self-care. "I vow to take care of myself and my life while I am in dark night." If any change stems from the motive of self-love you can be sure you are being true on the path.

If one's motive is to create an idealized image of themself, change themselves so they're cool or that people will like them; then this can be problematic because it's like a dog chasing its tail. There's no end to it.