So here's another question: To get arhatship does it require seeing through the "I"? Is arhatship actually penetrating the "I" as it happens? Or does it have to do with understanding how the "I" moves fluidly from one mental phenomena to another? What's the actual mechanism used to achieve that final state of arhatship?

I've recently gotten to a state that wasn't the 8th jhana, but it was awareness without a perception, without a focus on anything. The sense of "I" was still there and then that sense of "I" identified with words for a second and thought "Wow, that was interesting", then popped back into the original state, so I got a very clear memory of it.

Is resting in that mind going to get me there?

In other words, what is actually happening as I get closer to Arhatship?

The traditional definition is that an arhat is one who has eliminated all the mental defilements (kilesas) by coming to the end of their root cause, the outflowings (aasavas).

Daniel is skeptical about this definition -- see chapter 30 of MCTB for his argument.

But everyone agrees arhatship is a permanent transformation of the operating patterns of the psyche rather than a temporary state of consciousness.

As for the mechanism, one interesting point is that, in the Pali canon, the immediate trigger for arhatship is usually listening to a talk by the Buddha rather than extensive meditation.

If you are referring to MCTB 4th path which is considered arahatship by some people (I am not one of those people and do not consider it to be equivalent to the arahat of the pali canon suttas but more like an early fetter path), it's about all the phenomena, physical and mental, which includes the formation of the sense of self, being seen as equal, no better than, no higher status for one sensation over another. The whole playing field is leveled. No king of the hill. No stickiness or clinging element there. The mind becomes a teflon mind. No phenomena has anywhere to land or stick as it arises and passes away. Habitual tendencies still arise but do not stick. Thoughts arise but do not stick Mind states arise but the mind does not stick to them. There seems to be a choice now. You can choose to run with the phenomena or watch it arise within awareness and pass away within awareness. You do not "eradicate" the sense of self. It is seen for what it truly is and it's illusory higher status is taken away and it still arises and passes away like any other phenomena, just with no "stickiness" or clinging involved. For the first few days of this experience it was very surreal for me.

All the other previous paths seemed to occur after a "special" fruition. But this was different. It was more like a perception shift without a fruition. For myself, I had been agonizing over what to do to "get it done" for a couple of weeks. What the hell does one need to see? I had several pieces of advice by fellow yogis on what they did to get it done. One was seeing the "Non-sacred nature of ALL phenomena" which includes the formation of self. Another was to focus on where "suffering" was emanating from. Where was it all coming from. Also the fact the "I" had nothing to do with getting it done. The attachment to the sense of self was still there, ever so sublte. It was the 3rd path dilemma of what more was there to do??????

I sat there noting and noting the misery within. The mind shifted into high equanimity and dispersed. I stopped noting and the thought "Why are the sensations that make up the "I" being give more importance than all the rest of phenomena? Why is it still so prominent? Those sensations are no different than any other sensation. There is no difference. They are of equal status.

A fruition occurred. The mind rebooted. But it changed nothing. I kept questioning in the way mentioned.

As the mind kept at this way of investigating, the sensations and other phenomena propping up the of illusory "I" were seen as nothing more than sensations no different from any other sensation; the images and thoughts as no more important than the rest of the impermanent, not-self phenomena. And the experience within synched up with this form of questioning and investigation. Some sort of shift or blip or something hard to explain occurred. The mind just synched up. Blip. No fruition. The perception shifted to this way of seeing; Seeing all sensations including the ones clustering and being read together as self as all the same arising and passing away phenomena....permanently. No more stickiness. No more clinging to phenomena.

Then all sorts of thoughts arose. Doubt, curiosity, amazement. "Is this real? Did I just complete the circuit? Am I done? Is this real? I'm not sure." But these thoughts were being experienced differently now. They weren't sticking. They arose to pass away like cigarette smoke. So amazing. Negative sensations arose. But no rolling in them. Phenomena continued to arise, but no clinging. The formation of self continued to arise...but no clinging to it. That clinging element, whatever it was, is not there no more. And that was "insight disease". That clinging that caused so much misery. The second arrow is gone. Now, things just arise and there seems to be a choice, to run with it or not and just let it arise as an embryo and pass away as an embryo, without hatching and growing into a full blown flow of thoughts or emotions or mind state, rolling in attachment and misery. And the feeling of "doneness"......no more searching. A circuit completed! Now the rest of your life to be a human being....just no clinging anymore.
.
My 2 cents


P.S. Edited to include the fact that I do not like the term arahat and would not say 4th path is the same as the 10 fetter model arhat seen in the pali canon. However, I believe that this long held traditional ideal of the arahat is possible and hope to one day achieve it. 4th path that is often talked about here and at KFD, is a perfect jumping board to go in the direction of 10 fettr model arahat.

That was a very refreshing post I don't think I've ever been given exactly what I wanted so fast and so concisely.


So now a question to help my own line of inquiry:

Is the "I" always there? What I described above is that I can be aware the sense of "I" without an object for it or a sense of perception/focus. Is that sense of "I" always there, like one constant sensation that just shifts object? Probably not, considering the three characteristics, huh? I don't notice it when I'm in the 8th jhana, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Anyways, I'm contently happy now that I have plenty of palpable inquiry sitting right in front of me. I believe you gave me a pretty good perspective on this. I'll inquire into why it is any more important than other sensations and attempt to get as familiar with all the small sensations of "I" as much as possible.

However I don't want you all to stop this discussion because of me! I'm just expressing gratitude here Carry on!

The centrepoint of self. Where is it for you? For me it is in the head area, back behind the eyeballs, sometimes read as the eyeballs themselves. Generlaly the space behind the eyeballs; Vibrations perhaps coupled with thoughts and/or with fleeting images of my face or some other generic image of a man. This all arises and passes away like any other phenomena. One way to see what's happening is to observe vibrations/sensations on a leg. Try and keep your attention there for as long as possible without it shifting. You will find that it shifts automatically back and forth and at a very fast rate to the centre point of self. Back and forth creating the illusion of the self being the watcher. This shows how the formation of self is very impermanent and not-self as well.

As you are 3rd path, this type of inquiry would be what I would advise doing to get across the line. Just keep investigating why the sense of self is still so prominent and radiant. See it for what it truly is. Synch up the experience with this line of questioning.

And have a read of Maha Boowa's account of dealing with the golden chains of anagamihood. I really love it. It could be helpful for you!

Read part one and two:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Maha_Boowa_The_Path_to_Arahantship.htm#PART 2

Hope this helps

Nick


Edited to say, my opinion has since changed on the MCTB/DhO/KFD 4th being arhatship as talked of in the pali suttas. At least it's not the 10 fetter model arhat. Half way there, but not the end goal.

My Dharma Brother Nick knocked that one out of the park. Investigate the suffering you are causing yourself by feeling like your not done. Sink into that pain, eventually something will click. Off course take all of Nick's advice as well... So from my understanding arahatship does two things

1. Ends the Ride
2. Ends the sense of self as a permanent reference point (not that it won't continue to arise)

Best of luck...

Clayton

Nikolai,



I like this a lot. Have spent my time recently just residing in the observer, which appears, like you, to live behind my eyes. I've been content with this for a while, but feel the need to deconstruct it now. I will try this directly. Fun fun fun!

Profuse thanks,

Howard

Awesome and inspiring 2 cents worth Nikolai.

When you say "I", that seems to imply something.

By it, do you mean a pattern of experience? Do you mean certain qualities of experience?

When you ask if the "I" stays or goes, this implies a continuity or a permanence where none can be found.

The "I" in question will be found to be an artifact of pattern recognition or association, not anything that can be found anywhere. All patterns of sensations, all qualities of experience, all textures, all bodily sensations, all mental images, all of that are simply where they are, arising and vanishing, such that, seeing this directly and clearly, the field of experience is just the field of experience, open, centerless, with sensations that seemed to imply "I" being just more sensations in the wide-open field of what is happening.

It would be as if the quality of sensation patterns that occur when the eyes look at something were considered special, or the pattern of qualities of sensations that occur when the sensations of the skull arise were considered special, or the patterns of sensations and qualities that occur when intention arises were considered special, with these considerations of specialness arising due to the final lack of clarity about the true nature of these ordinary sensations, which are just sensations in the end, as all the rest was and is. The same insights that got you as far as you have gotten just need to filter through everything that seems to be centerpoint, doer, perceiver, Subject, observer, feeler, actor, knower, achiever, etc. These patterns can be slippery, cut close to things that there can be resistance to examining closely, and difficult to see, as they seem so close to home. See them anyway.

There is an untangling of some eddy in attention that caused that identification, and this is hard to explain. It is as if some last, subtle aspect of subject-object spacial distortion was seen through or righted itself, either way you look at it, suddenly naturally just this and without a reference point.

Falling back on fractal theory here, as 3 is to Dark Night, 4 is to Equanimity, in that the center is then included in the way that makes Fruitions possible. In that way, 3 is to anagami and 4 is to arahat, in that the center is now included in the same insight-mode that anagami does to the periphery and space mostly, arahat does to the whole volume throughout in a very even way. These are analogies, but they have value.

Helpful?

Daniel

Hey guys.. hope I'm not too late to join the party!

I'm curious, what about compassion? Mahayana stresses compassion so much.. that compassion and not just wisdom are both aspects of the true nature of mind. Seems like there's a lot of focusing on wisdom here, but what about compassion? I've been focusing on wisdom as well because I heard that compassion naturally arises when one gains wisdom, but I was curious if that's actually true. Is there more compassion and work toward the betterment of others after the sense of self is seen to be illusory? Does the continuum of experience then have a drive to develop skills to help others as the way of the bodhisattva suggests? Just trying to connect what's spoken of here as the 'end point' in comparison to the Mahayana end point.

Also, I'm curious from the POV of an arhat, do 'others' exist - I mean, other people are really just impermanent and selfless composites of phenomena so, doesn't this make it hard for an arhat to have meaningful relationships and actually take things seriously?

Hi Michael,

I consider sila to be my number one thing to work on now. Compassion does not arise all the time, but does seem to pop up real fast when I am confronted with someone else's suffering. I find it easier to be more compassionate and understanding without 'myself" and the belief in it getting in the way. Although I will admit, there are old habitual habit patterns which still arise. One of my main practices at the moment is grounding the sensations and emotional charges which are easily seen to arise and trigger not so helpful thought patterns and mind states. Although the method I have used has brought some nasty unpleasantness up, it it has begun to bring great results, resulting in PCE's, more peace and calm, more patience with others, more acceptance without any of my old crap getting in the way of being a nice considerate compassionate human being towards other human beings. I find if I do make a mistake, I am quick to recognise it and address it, especially with dealing with human relationships. Much more understanding of all the shit that makes up "Nick" makes it easier to let go of and rectify things. I am a nicer person I think than before.

I am definitely more intimate with all the stuff that makes up "Nick" these days, and it makes it easier to see that others are suffering like I once did with all the self contraction, and it feels natural to help when i can. The 2nd arrow is good to be rid of. The 1st arrow is on my agenda too. Also, without insight disease, I seem to need a project to kind of identify with as part of a provisional identity, and I find the best projects are the ones that help others (they exist to me as this body and mind exist to me). 4th path is only a beginning. ;)

Hi Michael, I'm curious about one thing, the logic of your thinking here. What are you comparing 'impermanent and selfless composites of phenomena' with, in a way which makes it appropriate to say 'people are really just impermanent and selfless composites of phenomena'?

Hi.

Well if the purpose of practice is to see everything as impermanent and selfless, visual phenomena are not excluded. 'A chair' for example is merely a label for a composite of parts, relatively we call it chair but with 'emptiness vision' we know that there's no such stable entity called chair that has essence of 'chairness'

I'm curious how those with 'permanent emptiness vision' view other people, It's just so strange for me to deconstruct someone that I'm talking to and not see them as a being. It's just so deeply ingrained in me that others are separate beings, they are thinking beings that exist from their own side and have something which makes them quite different from a lamp or a car.

Which really gets down to the issue of compassion.. how can the enlightened feel compassion for others when there really are no other beings? We direct compassion toward others. I want to help you do something because I recognize that you would be better off if I helped you, but if there's no 'you' then... what's the motivation?

Sorry if this is confusing. I'm confused myself!

This is very interesting from an intellectual point of view. I understand that certain clusters of sensations are being artificially labelled as "self" and that these clusteres are given artificially higher importance. There is no subject, only sensations araising and passing away, yet until arahatship these sensations are being percieved by something/someone as having this artificial state of importance. What/who is this something/someone? Itself?

The knot is untagled. By what/who? The knot itself?

The knot is untangled by the fact that those causes arose, meaning that reality did its thing. Tracing causality is complex, as conditions are vast as the universe is vast. Suffice to say that it happens, and when it happens, it appears that it was just causality that did it, nothing more.

As to perceived by what, perceived by nothing beyond those sensations themselves, as perception is the same as manifestation, as there is no perceiver and never was. Phenomena just occur as and where they are, and the sense of a perceiver that seems to have to perceive them is a distortion, an illusion, a phase problem, a trick of timing and false association or imputation.

This is not just an intellectual exercise: it is very possible to perceive this so directly that this becomes the default mode of perception.

Helpful?

Daniel

Much already given, here is a little input:


pleasant neutral unpleasant


Being with pleasant to neutral, pleasant to unpleasant, etc. and all the sensations of all of the possible relationships within,...
eventually: you may see space around all of the possible states, nothing more and nothing less, and not you either, as anything solid. It can seem like a subtle vortex appears around neutral, and that can be deceptive, stay with the process closer, and the space around the three words (just as a pointing concept here) or any state or relationship magnifies, and then equalizes with All, and gone.

This is done with all the aggregates.

Perhaps helpful?

Constance

Bump....sometimes you come across a gem from the past....like this thread

Disclaimer: Any of my past posts from years ago often no longer represent my current thinking or rather my current lack of giving a shit about what what term means what what meaning. 

Nick

Regardless of specific terms and the definitions thereof, I find the descriptions absolutely wonderful....do you have anything to add or modify that would further clarify the descriptions of this level of permanent change?
Thanks,
~D

Whatever you leave untouched.   That is the ultimate danger.        Maha Boowa

No, nothing further to add. 

@ Pawel: If I was to give one piece of advice, I'd say get established in a lifestyle that is conducive to paying attention at all waking times with a gentle curiosity to whatever is occuring in the moment and also be aware of 'beginner's luck' and when/how it ends and experiment with varying paying attention approaches to see what causes such a notion to allow baselines to shift. 

The Bodhicaryavatara states:

By assimilating the emptiness of reality,
One eliminates one's psychic imprints of substantiality.
This view of emptiness that one has assimilated
Will also be nullified

Your friend in days past,

Nick Mason

What the.....???

LOL! That statue...

Arhatship is an achievement of no more or less than collapsing consciousness in to a black hole.
This causes it to be concentrated in zero size singularity.
Apparent movement/vibrations of observed reality stops and now Buddha feels like being seated in 'adamantine throne' in the middle of universe which whole universe and experiencing it whole at once.
It gives proper perspective on everything.
Even details such as how this patch of universe we call physical universe came to be and from what and how it will end.

People rarely become Arhats so do not worry about it too much or your head explode XD