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Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 10 Years ago.

Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 3159 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, I thought that some people might be interested in this two-part recording Tarin and I did at my home, Hurricane Ranch, a few days ago regarding some of our thoughts on AF. They cover many topics that have been discussed here and give our takes on many questions that people have asked. I hope people find them clear and practical.

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/podcasts.shtml

Look down at the bottom of the list. The broken link to part two has been fixed. Thanks to those who pointed this out. Reasons not to write html at 2:30am.

They are each about 65 MB and about an hour long each, for a total of something over two hours.

I hope you enjoy listening to them as much as Tarin and I enjoyed our conversation.

Daniel
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time.
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Nikolai S Halay, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Yes, a very interesting listen. Something that should have been done awhile back. Thanks for posting!
Nick
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Aziz Solomon, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 24 Join Date: 4/9/10 Recent Posts
Just finished listening to the hurricane ranch discussion of AF. Thank you Tarin and Daniel for putting it out there. What I find surprising is how Daniel and Tarin’s descriptions of PCE and the mode of perception and experience aimed for in AF are uncannily familiar to me from my vipassana practice. I am not a highly advanced vipassana practitioner, and yet it is vipassana more than any other activity that I have found reliably produces such states, albeit temporarily, in their vividness and glory. To dwell permanently in this way is what I imagine to be the fruit of sustained and intensified vipassana practice. Am I wrong? How does the PCE differ from what Kenneth Folk (following Bill Hamilton) calls “vipassana consciousness”?

I am not interested in weighing into the debate about whether AF is old or new but I am keen to identify the most effective methodology for liberation from ignorance and suffering and to experience life in the way that Daniel and Tarin describe so nicely in the podcast. The Buddhist tradition, for all its faults, offers a very clear set of methodologies that have been tried and tested for millennia and continue to reveal their transformative potential to anyone who perseveres with them. ‘Actual Freedom’ on the other hand, is primarily represented by one cranky website. Like many people, I was put off by the Actual Freedom Trust site and Richard’s persona, but like many people here, I also find it impossible to dismiss something that people who are clearly intelligent, discerning - and a hell of a lot more experienced in vipassana than I am - should nevertheless find well worth pursuing.

Daniel, Tarin and Trent still give some of the best advice available to those on the vipassana trail, and “Actual Freedom” now seems to represent the gold standard in their own experience. “Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha” maps out the vipassana terrain with unprecedented clarity and reassures us that it does lead to a permanent and definite shift in consciousness after all. But when the advance guard seems to waver in his convictions, how could it not be disorienting for the rest of us? If there is a shortcut to the goal (or worse, to an unimaginably greater goal) why should we fritter away our limited time sitting on our asses ascending the vipassana nanas? At least, those are some of the anxieties that had popped into my mind when I first heard read about Daniel’s apparent ‘conversion’ to AF.

But then listening to the Hurricane Ranch discussion, I feel somewhat reassured by the close fit between what Daniel and Tarin call PCE and my own vipassana experiences. Surely the distinctive conceptual framework of AF (or Buddhism) is of less consequence than these experiential testimonies? Do other people find that Daniel and Tarin’s descriptions of PCE map onto their vipassana experiences?
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
hi aziz,


Aziz Solomon:
Just finished listening to the hurricane ranch discussion of AF. Thank you Tarin and Daniel for putting it out there. What I find surprising is how Daniel and Tarin’s descriptions of PCE and the mode of perception and experience aimed for in AF are uncannily familiar to me from my vipassana practice. I am not a highly advanced vipassana practitioner, and yet it is vipassana more than any other activity that I have found reliably produces such states, albeit temporarily, in their vividness and glory. To dwell permanently in this way is what I imagine to be the fruit of sustained and intensified vipassana practice.


would you describe, in some detail, what those states (however temporary) are like?


Aziz Solomon:

Am I wrong? How does the PCE differ from what Kenneth Folk (following Bill Hamilton) calls “vipassana consciousness”?


i don't know yet.. would you describe, in some detail, what you mean here by 'vipassana consciousness'?


Aziz Solomon:

I am not interested in weighing into the debate about whether AF is old or new but I am keen to identify the most effective methodology for liberation from ignorance and suffering and to experience life in the way that Daniel and Tarin describe so nicely in the podcast.


i'm glad to hear that, as it will make our correspondence all the more worthwhile.

regarding the part i bolded.. what have you been trying so far? and how has it worked?


Aziz Solomon:

The Buddhist tradition, for all its faults, offers a very clear set of methodologies that have been tried and tested for millennia and continue to reveal their transformative potential to anyone who perseveres with them.


ah.. but transformative into what? what is the mode of experience aimed at... and what is the mode achieved? are they modes which you, personally, desire?


Aziz Solomon:

‘Actual Freedom’ on the other hand, is primarily represented by one cranky website. Like many people, I was put off by the Actual Freedom Trust site and Richard’s persona, but like many people here, I also find it impossible to dismiss something that people who are clearly intelligent, discerning - and a hell of a lot more experienced in vipassana than I am - should nevertheless find well worth pursuing.


i found the actual freedom trust's website iconoclastic and contrary, but not cranky in any way.. what was it which gave you that impression?


Aziz Solomon:

Daniel, Tarin and Trent still give some of the best advice available to those on the vipassana trail, and “Actual Freedom” now seems to represent the gold standard in their own experience. “Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha” maps out the vipassana terrain with unprecedented clarity and reassures us that it does lead to a permanent and definite shift in consciousness after all. But when the advance guard seems to waver in his convictions, how could it not be disorienting for the rest of us?


i'll assume this isn't a rhetorical question and so will attempt a matter-of-fact answer.

though, if you would first describe how the advance guard has wavered in his convictions, i might be in a better position to determine why you (and the rest of you) have found it disorienting.


Aziz Solomon:

If there is a shortcut to the goal (or worse, to an unimaginably greater goal)


ha.... why is that 'worse'?


Aziz Solomon:

why should we fritter away our limited time sitting on our asses ascending the vipassana nanas? At least, those are some of the anxieties that had popped into my mind when I first heard read about Daniel’s apparent ‘conversion’ to AF.


why indeed? i'm not sure.. but let's talk about it a bit and see if we can find out.

can you get felicity up and running? does it make sense to you to do this.. and would you want to live felicitously this all the time?


Aziz Solomon:

But then listening to the Hurricane Ranch discussion, I feel somewhat reassured by the close fit between what Daniel and Tarin call PCE and my own vipassana experiences. Surely the distinctive conceptual framework of AF (or Buddhism) is of less consequence than these experiential testimonies?


if the goal is to become actually free, then what is of consequence can be determined by what causes one to get really, really get into genuinely enjoying being alive (and to find life's meaning - if that is a concern - to be self-evident in the living itself) .... as that is the means by which one becomes actually free.


Aziz Solomon:

Do other people find that Daniel and Tarin’s descriptions of PCE map onto their vipassana experiences?


i would also be interested to know whether other people here are familiar with pce's (or ee's - near-pce's which are dubbed 'excellence experiences') whether from their practice of vipassana, or anywhere else in their plethora of life experiences (childhood, perhaps?).

tarin
ManZ A, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 105 Join Date: 1/12/10 Recent Posts
This is very interesting. Thank you again! emoticon
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Dan Bartlett, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 46 Join Date: 7/20/09 Recent Posts
Excellent stuff, thanks so much for posting this calm clear and informative discussion! I hope it goes some way to dissolving some of the irrational resistance to AF, through providing us with a sample of the articulate views and experiences of two clearly intelligent, honest and dedicated practitioners. I say "hope" because it seems quite obvious to me that those most opposed to AF have already made up their minds and stopped their exploration (if they even started it in the first place...)

I wanted to talk more about what was discussed but it's late, so for now I just want to re-iterate the point made re: you simply don't know until you experience a PCE that good emotions are second rate, that the whole mode of being is a second rate distortion. That's all you know... until PCE, and then this whole new paradigm of clarity reveals itself and just pulls the rug out. And then just as you first realised when you started landing paths, there is a better way of living here, something very different, profound and magical... something worth dedicating some time towards!
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
a couple things i thought of when i listened to the recording:

toward the end, where i'm talking about oblivion, dan added 'centrelessness' and i said 'yes.' - i didn't mean to imply it is just centreless.. it is also periphery-less, and push-less, and pull-less, and sense of presence-less.

something i may not have been clear enough about is that the 'i' that we are talking about (which is suspended during a pce and completely absent in an actual freedom) is the sense of presence which can be found in/concomitant with any feeling or desire; hence, the common actualist refrain (which i forgot to mention entirely), 'i am my feelings, my feelings are me'. without understanding how this is so, even 4th path people may wonder what we could be talking about since there is no 'i' already... thereby missing entirely what is meant here by 'i' and 'me'.

tarin
Neil Hughes, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/13/10 Recent Posts
Tarin, could you please go into a little more detail about how and why you hit the wall with the actualism method and decided to pursue enlightenment as a stepping stone? You mentioned this briefly in your discussion with Dan, but the details are scant. I'm really curious.

I ask this because, while I see tremendous value in actual freedom, I still find the vanilla actualism method too difficult to implement. When I try it, I often find myself in a state of joyless conflict with myself. I am considering following the same path you took, because, as I mentioned before, I do get good results (greater ease, peace, freedom, enjoyment, clarity) from practices that lead to enlightenment.

If you knew back then (at the time you hit the wall with the actualism method) what you know now, would you have been able to persevere and get through it (and, if so, how? what were you doing wrong? what would you have done differently?) Or was arhatship (or at least stream entry) somehow necessary in your case to break through that wall?

Best,
Neil
ManZ A, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 105 Join Date: 1/12/10 Recent Posts
Neil Hughes:
Tarin, could you please go into a little more detail about how and why you hit the wall with the actualism method and decided to pursue enlightenment as a stepping stone? You mentioned this briefly in your discussion with Dan, but the details are scant. I'm really curious.

I ask this because, while I see tremendous value in actual freedom, I still find the vanilla actualism method too difficult to implement. When I try it, I often find myself in a state of joyless conflict with myself. I am considering following the same path you took, because, as I mentioned before, I do get good results (greater ease, peace, freedom, enjoyment, clarity) from practices that lead to enlightenment.

If you knew back then (at the time you hit the wall with the actualism method) what you know now, would you have been able to persevere and get through it (and, if so, how? what were you doing wrong? what would you have done differently?) Or was arhatship (or at least stream entry) somehow necessary in your case to break through that wall?

Best,
Neil


Yes, Tarin. I too am wondering what are your reasons for attaining enlightenment when you already knew of and wanted an AF. Or what was the wall that was in your way?
Ram Ravan, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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ManZ A:
Yes, Tarin. I too am wondering what are your reasons for attaining enlightenment when you already knew of and wanted an AF. Or what was the wall that was in your way?




While you wait, here is something from the past that might throw up some answers. An old post from Tarin elsewhere on www.

Do visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/message/5940


Cheers

Ram
ManZ A, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 105 Join Date: 1/12/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for that link Ram, it was a very inspirational read. I can relate to Tarin a lot in his quest.

It puzzled me at first reading that in fact enlightenment did not eradicate all suffering (that is, it did not reduce it down to pretty much nothing but maybe physical pain) despite all such or similar claims by it in the texts and people accepted it as that's just how things are. Although it does seem to provide a whole new dimension of well-'being' (haha) according to other peoples' accounts, there still seem to be times of suffering still present in it. I'm currently split between whether I should pursue AF or Enlightenment (of course the final goal being AF). As I'm stuck in the Dark Night, I can say it's not easy trying to apply the actualism method and cultivating felicitous feelings. I must say there is slight progress, but the horrible feelings do drip in from time to time and I simply can't find their cause. To make it worse I can't recall any past PCEs, so I'm trying my best to induce one by trying to be as happy and harmless as possible within the moment. If anyone else is trying the actualism method while in the Dark Night, are you also having similar problems? Perhaps I'll just give it more time and see where it goes. emoticon
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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ManZ A:


It puzzled me at first reading that in fact enlightenment did not eradicate all suffering


If someone claims to get enlightenment, it is sure that they are not. After all, who is it that is claiming enlightenment.

But the way Tarin describes his experience now, that sounds closer to enlightenment than the time he used to claim himself as an arahat.
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Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Aman A.:
If someone claims to get enlightenment, it is sure that they are not. After all, who is it that is claiming enlightenment.


Are you sure? Basically, this is saying, "Only the unenlightened are qualified to speak about enlightenment". Are you sure this is not just unexamined religious folklore, an expression of the crab bucket syndrome?

A much better way to hold this, in my opinion and experience, is this Bill Hamilton one-liner:

[indent]"The Buddha's enlightenment solved his problem. It didn't do anything for you."[/indent]
There is a problem to solve, and it isn't the problem of other people claiming things I can't fit into my world-view.

Cheers,
Florian
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 797 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Florian Weps:

Are you sure? Basically, this is saying, "Only the unenlightened are qualified to speak about enlightenment". Are you sure this is not just unexamined religious folklore, an expression of the crab bucket syndrome?


No, the above is not equivalent to saying that only the unenlightened are qualified to speak about enlightenment. To understand this, one has to look with a nondual mind where there is movement yet there is nothing that moves. Then it will make sense. Otherwise it may seem as crab bucket syndrome or something else. Have you experienced that there is movement yet nothing that moves? Those who get to this point with Buddhism may go about saying good things about it. Those who get helped by AF will stick to it.

Florian Weps:

A much better way to hold this, in my opinion and experience, is this Bill Hamilton one-liner:

[indent]"The Buddha's enlightenment solved his problem. It didn't do anything for you."[/indent]

There is a problem to solve, and it isn't the problem of other people claiming things I can't fit into my world-view.


This holds true for AF or any other way to get out of problem, not just Buddhism. There are people who have been struggling with AF for a few years and it still hasn't solved their problem. There are others who spent much less time with it and as per them, it has solved their problem. There are many who checked out AF and then left it without it having solved their problem. There are various methods that work for different people. Some find it better to have been able to escape from AF trap. Some consider it good that they locked themselves into paradise. It is a subjective experience.
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Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Aman A.:
Florian Weps:

Are you sure? Basically, this is saying, "Only the unenlightened are qualified to speak about enlightenment". Are you sure this is not just unexamined religious folklore, an expression of the crab bucket syndrome?


No, the above is not equivalent to saying that only the unenlightened are qualified to speak about enlightenment.


It is, in the crab bucket. The other crabs will make sure of this. That's what makes it the crab bucket in the first place.

Aman A.:
To understand this, one has to look with a nondual mind where there is movement yet there is nothing that moves. Then it will make sense. Otherwise it may seem as crab bucket syndrome or something else.


When you are able to look with a "nondual mind", you're no longer in the crab bucket.

However, I'd like to move away from bickering over that - we're obviously of different opinion, and have both made our point - and into the realm of the practical and useful - compare notes? You wrote:

Aman A.:
Have you experienced that there is movement yet nothing that moves?


That can mean a lot of things.

If you mean that sense of things getting done without a doer, strong whiffs of not-self, for minutes at a time, during everyday life, then yes, I (!) experience that.

If you mean the highly refined state of mind where all or at least very much of experience gets in synch and presents as one big package, with perceptions and interpretation like "movement" all pretty much integrated, which crops up in what's called "high equanimity" around here, where it becomes evident that things have to change, or they wouldn't have any time in which to exist then yes, I know about that.

If you mean some kind of eternal now, perfectly still unmoving backdrop thing against which there is movement, but the thing itself doesn't move, then no, I've not experienced anything like that. Read about it a lot, though.

If you mean the concrete, nothing-interpreted-into-experience thing about the clock's hands moving, but not time moving as mentioned in the Hurricane Ranch discussion, then again no, I've not experienced anything like that.

Can you give some kind of practical standard to measure the "movement but nothing that moves" experience against? I.e. I gave you a few examples of how this can be understood, so how can I tell, in practical terms, which one is on the mark (if any)?

Cheers,
Florian
Lloth _, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Here are some notes I made on the matter:

Undetermined amount of time drawing, lightly tuning into pure action sensations (well, what arises from action, although it can't be directly observed), and letting the body do it's things. I think this is a manifestation of the Pure Conciousness Experience mode that's being explored here:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/600967

I agree with their description, the cycling when doing this practice is pretty much gone, and it seems only very light sensations seep through once in awhile. When in it, everything is very clear, direct, solid (as opposed to vipassana sensations arising in and out of awareness in a vibratory manner) and perfect.

It seems to be best achieved for me when either drawing or walking, and giving into where reality wants to take you (with drawing, let the pen move on it's own, with walking, relax and let yourself walk wherever you walk), having a childlike fascination with the sensate universe also works for awhile, but you get tired of this after doing it a long time. With the walking thing, it's interesting in that this mode doesn't respect property rights :-P (Telling yourself not to play in a persons lawn snaps you out of this mode). I suspect there is a difference between outside and inside (nature vs sitting inside a room), but I haven't compared them side by side yet.

When I was walking outside, I kept being reminded by this scene in Donnie Darko, where he walks automatically being guided by something coming out of his chest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06idSYnxrxQ#t=4m16s

What's interesting is my prior investigation into concentration states, one pointed and wide don't seem to be this state either (none of the jhanas). Same with just sitting with wide open and closed eyes by themselves. What's interesting is that it seems the eyes wide open has something to do with it, however, in my regular practice of just sitting it doesn't seem eyes open equals this state which I'm talking about. In fact, I think sitting itself and attending to the introspective world is part of the problem. Sitting makes it more difficult to do, but it can be done.

What's also interesting is that this seems eerily similar to what's described as the end state by shinzen young:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2anxOUgl1A

For awhile I thought it was describing arahantship, and it seems for awhile there was a strong desire for me to help others and teach, but it seems that when in this mode it's rather irrelevant to do that, because reality seems to unfold automatically (which seemingly makes me more likely to actually help people, as opposed to thinking about it. It's the distinction between thought and action).
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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What if all the concepts that you hold in your mind are not there? That will be a state where there is no movement. At that point it is also possible to see that how 'movement' comes about in the mind, that it is a fabrication of the mind. So you can see movement as well as no movement.

This may or may not be helpful but try watching a youtube video. Does your mind make the video appear 3D? Now try if you can see it as flat/2D which is what it is. If you can do this, you may also see that your mind fabricated the 3rd dimension.
Lloth _, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

Posts: 17 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hmm, well maybe. From an insight point of view the notion of space is itself a sensation. From a concentration point of view, you can exclude that sensation or whatever to get deeper into the concentration states.

However, when doing this practice, it seems that I only think about those things when I'm not in the state itself, it's like remembering the state and than comparing it to something. When in the state itself, I just move or do things. It's only afterwards that I can think about it. What I'm saying is, that the way you act when in that state, by just doing things without seemingly having control of it, reminds me of that youtube clip. Get it?

Edit: Sorry, I thought you were responding to me. :-P Carry on your discussion around me. My bad.
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Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Aman A.:
What if all the concepts that you hold in your mind are not there? That will be a state where there is no movement. At that point it is also possible to see that how 'movement' comes about in the mind, that it is a fabrication of the mind. So you can see movement as well as no movement.


If I understand you right, that's what I was going on about with experience forming an "integrated package" in high equanimity.

Aman A.:
This may or may not be helpful but try watching a youtube video. Does your mind make the video appear 3D? Now try if you can see it as flat/2D which is what it is. If you can do this, you may also see that your mind fabricated the 3rd dimension.


In fact, that is largely what my practice is at this time. I just found this "space element" thing in visual sensations one day. Nice twist with the youtube video.

Cheers,
Florian
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Florian Weps:


In fact, that is largely what my practice is at this time. I just found this "space element" thing in visual sensations one day. Nice twist with the youtube video.



What Nagarjuna is trying to do is to break all the fabrications of the mind, not just the space element, that could result in the experience of emptiness.

As such, the sensate and apperception are seen as empty and are not clung to.

The PCE that I had while practicing AF appeared to be fabricated by my mind. Anything other than emptiness appears fabricated. To avoid controversy, I would add that it is a subjective experience and I might be wrong.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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ManZ A:
Neil Hughes:
Tarin, could you please go into a little more detail about how and why you hit the wall with the actualism method and decided to pursue enlightenment as a stepping stone? You mentioned this briefly in your discussion with Dan, but the details are scant. I'm really curious.

I ask this because, while I see tremendous value in actual freedom, I still find the vanilla actualism method too difficult to implement. When I try it, I often find myself in a state of joyless conflict with myself. I am considering following the same path you took, because, as I mentioned before, I do get good results (greater ease, peace, freedom, enjoyment, clarity) from practices that lead to enlightenment.

If you knew back then (at the time you hit the wall with the actualism method) what you know now, would you have been able to persevere and get through it (and, if so, how? what were you doing wrong? what would you have done differently?) Or was arhatship (or at least stream entry) somehow necessary in your case to break through that wall?

Best,
Neil


Yes, Tarin. I too am wondering what are your reasons for attaining enlightenment when you already knew of and wanted an AF. Or what was the wall that was in your way?


hi neil and manz a,

my post to the yahoo-hosted 'actualfreedom' list from last year (which ram ravan linked to in his reply earlier in this thread - thank you) should answer your questions sufficiently. let me know if they do not and i will provide further clarification.

neil - regarding your 'joyless conflict with yourself', perhaps we could pick up the discussion we were having last month on this topic in the 'af method' thread. if you would like to, then update me on what has come of the insight you had regarding your past half-hearted attempts at engaging (and changing) how you feel, and on how your 'new tool set' has been working (or not), and i will reply shortly.

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Hello Tarin,

It was interesting to hear you talk about time and movement. I was wondering if you have read Nagarjuna's Mula madhyamaka karika. It appears to me that the place where Peter (or Richard) wanted you to get to when pointing out the movement of the second hand is where Nagarjuna wants the reader to get to. I would like to hear your opinion on it. Here is a link to Nagarjuna's Mula madhyamaka karika: http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/verses2.htm

You may just read the Investigation of conditions, coming and going and time to form your opinion.

Where you talk about restlessness and movement, it reminds me of the following:

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."

The other said: "The wind is moving."

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

Aman
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Tarin: .......there is movement and yet there is nothing that moves.........

This is where samsara and nirvana are not different. These are the two truths, a relative truth of movement and ultimate or absolute truth of nothing that moves.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Aman A.:
Tarin: .......there is movement and yet there is nothing that moves.........

This is where samsara and nirvana are not different. These are the two truths, a relative truth of movement and ultimate or absolute truth of nothing that moves.


actually, what i meant by saying 'there is nothing that moves' is that there is no substance of 'time' which moves (or passes, as in the phrase 'time passes'). hence, my saying so had nothing to do with either the things that move (the objects in the world) being a 'relative truth of movement' and/or the lack of time-as-a-substance (which, not actually existing, cannot move) being an 'ultimate or absolute truth of nothing that moves'.

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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tarin greco:


actually, what i meant by saying 'there is nothing that moves' is that there is no substance of 'time' which moves (or passes, as in the phrase 'time passes'). hence, my saying so had nothing to do with either the things that move (the objects in the world) being a 'relative truth of movement' and/or the lack of time-as-a-substance (which, not actually existing, cannot move) being an 'ultimate or absolute truth of nothing that moves'.

tarin


And what did you mean by saying 'there is movement'?
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: Tarin and Daniel Discuss AF at Hurricane Ranch

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:


actually, what i meant by saying 'there is nothing that moves' is that there is no substance of 'time' which moves (or passes, as in the phrase 'time passes'). hence, my saying so had nothing to do with either the things that move (the objects in the world) being a 'relative truth of movement' and/or the lack of time-as-a-substance (which, not actually existing, cannot move) being an 'ultimate or absolute truth of nothing that moves'.

tarin


And what did you mean by saying 'there is movement'?


i meant, for example, that my hands are moving right now as i type this and post it.

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:


i meant, for example, that my hands are moving right now as i type this and post it.



So when you stated 'movement' in the first part of the sentence, you meant physical movement such as that of hand and in the second part when you stated 'nothing that moves' you meant it in the sense of substance of time. Does that mean you were trying to point to the concept of movement of the hands of a clock that gets tied to the sense of time and maybe if that breaks, it will be of help to others just as it did for you? That it will result in stillness?
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:


i meant, for example, that my hands are moving right now as i type this and post it.



So when you stated 'movement' in the first part of the sentence, you meant physical movement such as that of hand and in the second part when you stated 'nothing that moves' you meant it in the sense of substance of time. Does that mean you were trying to point to the concept of movement of the hands of a clock that gets tied to the sense of time and maybe if that breaks, it will be of help to others just as it did for you? That it will result in stillness?


the movement of the hands of a clock is not a concept, it is a physical happening. here, the sense of time's passage is the illusion. when the illusion is seen through, the sense of time's passage vanishes, and the hands of a clock simply move.

for a feeling being, there is a palpable stillness in seeing this - the experience is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way. the stillness engenders an easeful sensitivity that feels so light and delicate, wafer-thin.. nothing untoward can happen here, nothing stressful can enter in. then, when the stillness is total, those light and delicate feelings vanish, too, and where they were, now only the sensate, and its immediate apperception, are (because there really is nothing to feel in a world so distinct and clearly real).

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:


the movement of the hands of a clock is not a concept, it is a physical happening. here, the sense of time's passage is the illusion. when the illusion is seen through, the sense of time's passage vanishes, and the hands of a clock simply move.

for a feeling being, there is a palpable stillness in seeing this - the experience is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way. the stillness engenders an easeful sensitivity that feels so light and delicate, wafer-thin.. nothing untoward can happen here, nothing stressful can enter in. then, when the stillness is total, those light and delicate feelings vanish, too, and where they were, now only the sensate, and its immediate apperception, are (because there really is nothing to feel in a world so distinct and clearly real).



The physical happening that you talk about the movement is a view that comes about as a consequence of movement in the mind. In utter stillness, there isn't a movement which can be talked about in the way you are talking about. There are no views that are fabricated in the mind.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
Hello Tarin,

It was interesting to hear you talk about time and movement. I was wondering if you have read Nagarjuna's Mula madhyamaka karika. It appears to me that the place where Peter (or Richard) wanted you to get to when pointing out the movement of the second hand is where Nagarjuna wants the reader to get to. I would like to hear your opinion on it. Here is a link to Nagarjuna's Mula madhyamaka karika: http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/verses2.htm

You may just read the Investigation of conditions, coming and going and time to form your opinion.


i have just read the chapters you indicate and have no opinion. what is it precisely which you would like to hear my opinion on?


Aman A.:

Where you talk about restlessness and movement, it reminds me of the following:

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."

The other said: "The wind is moving."

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."


i am familiar with this anecdote about the sixth patriarch of ch'an/zen.. do you have any purpose in bringing it up (other than because you are reminded, for whatever reason, of it)? have you experienced something that suggests to you this story's relevance to the recorded discussion in which i took part or to this thread?

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:


i have just read the chapters you indicate and have no opinion. what is it precisely which you would like to hear my opinion on?



Could someone get to the same place where you got to when pointed to the second hand of clock by Peter (or Richard) after reading the said chapters?


tarin greco:

i am familiar with this anecdote about the sixth patriarch of ch'an/zen.. do you have any purpose in bringing it up (other than because you are reminded, for whatever reason, of it)? have you experienced something that suggests to you this story's relevance to the recorded discussion in which i took part or to this thread?

tarin


When there is restlessness in the mind, there is movement and vice versa.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:


i have just read the chapters you indicate and have no opinion. what is it precisely which you would like to hear my opinion on?



Could someone get to the same place where you got to when pointed to the second hand of clock by Peter (or Richard) after reading the said chapters?


i don't know.. does reading those chapters get you to a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?


Aman A.:

tarin greco:

i am familiar with this anecdote about the sixth patriarch of ch'an/zen.. do you have any purpose in bringing it up (other than because you are reminded, for whatever reason, of it)? have you experienced something that suggests to you this story's relevance to the recorded discussion in which i took part or to this thread?

tarin


When there is restlessness in the mind, there is movement and vice versa.


ok.. i can see how when there is a restlessness in the mind, there is a (sense of) movement which is not there when there is not that feeling of restlessness. is this what you mean? and are you suggesting that this is what the sixth patriarch meant by what he said in that story ('Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving')?

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:


i don't know.. does reading those chapters get you to a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?


I read other chapters as well and it took me to where there were no conceptions about anything at all. It took away all the restlessness in the mind.


tarin greco:


ok.. i can see how when there is a restlessness in the mind, there is a (sense of) movement which is not there when there is not that feeling of restlessness. is this what you mean? and are you suggesting that this is what the sixth patriarch meant by what he said in that story ('Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving')?



Yes, that is what I think sixth patriarch meant.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:


i don't know.. does reading those chapters get you to a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?


I read other chapters as well and it took me to where there were no conceptions about anything at all. It took away all the restlessness in the mind.


ok.. but did the restlessness in your mind being thus gone reveal, to your perception, a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?


Aman A.:
tarin greco:


ok.. i can see how when there is a restlessness in the mind, there is a (sense of) movement which is not there when there is not that feeling of restlessness. is this what you mean? and are you suggesting that this is what the sixth patriarch meant by what he said in that story ('Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving')?



Yes, that is what I think sixth patriarch meant.


why do you suppose, then, that in addition to saying that the 'mind is moving', he also told the others, 'not the wind, not the flag' (which indicates that he did not think that either the wind or the flag themselves actually moved)?

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:

ok.. but did the restlessness in your mind being thus gone reveal, to your perception, a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?



When mental chatter stopped, just the senses remained, so it was direct and as there was no restlessness, there was peace and security.

tarin greco:


why do you suppose, then, that in addition to saying that the 'mind is moving', he also told the others, 'not the wind, not the flag' (which indicates that he did not think that either the wind or the flag themselves actually moved)?



He said that to break the concept of wind and flag so that the restlessness caused by concepts goes away and there is stillness.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:

ok.. but did the restlessness in your mind being thus gone reveal, to your perception, a place which is sensuous in a very direct and bodily way, in where the sense of stillness is effortlessly palpable (in that direct and sensuous way), and where peace and security abound (because there really is nothing to fear in a world this distinct and clear)?



When mental chatter stopped, just the senses remained, so it was direct and as there was no restlessness, there was peace and security.


when the mental chatter stopped, and just the senses remained, what was the affective quality of your experience, if there was any?


Aman A.:

tarin greco:


why do you suppose, then, that in addition to saying that the 'mind is moving', he also told the others, 'not the wind, not the flag' (which indicates that he did not think that either the wind or the flag themselves actually moved)?



He said that to break the concept of wind and flag so that the restlessness caused by concepts goes away and there is stillness.


so, regardless of whether your mind is still or restless, does the wind move? does the flag move?

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:


when the mental chatter stopped, and just the senses remained, what was the affective quality of your experience, if there was any?



There was none though getting up to that point, there was some element of surprise.


tarin greco:


so, regardless of whether your mind is still or restless, does the wind move? does the flag move?



Any answer to that would be a view, as there were no views at that point, there isn't an answer.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:

tarin greco:


so, regardless of whether your mind is still or restless, does the wind move? does the flag move?



Any answer to that would be a view, as there were no views at that point, there isn't an answer.


ok... so would a sailor who is experiencing this state (whose mind is is still in this way, and who thus has no views), be able to tell that the wind is blowing, discern which direction it is blowing from, hoist his sail accordingly, and sail where he is trying to go?

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:

ok... so would a sailor who is experiencing this state (whose mind is is still in this way, and who thus has no views), be able to tell that the wind is blowing, discern which direction it is blowing from, hoist his sail accordingly, and sail where he is trying to go?



If you want to know that would it be possible to live life while the mind is still, my answer is yes, even if it involves sailing. And if there are other people involved while sailing the boat, he will use the words wind and direction and other words as necessary. I think that if there are others like him, there will be less need to use the words or maybe none at all? Things may just get done.
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:

ok... so would a sailor who is experiencing this state (whose mind is is still in this way, and who thus has no views), be able to tell that the wind is blowing, discern which direction it is blowing from, hoist his sail accordingly, and sail where he is trying to go?



If you want to know that would it be possible to live life while the mind is still, my answer is yes, even if it involves sailing. And if there are other people involved while sailing the boat, he will use the words wind and direction and other words as necessary. I think that if there are others like him, there will be less need to use the words or maybe none at all? Things may just get done.



ok, i'm glad to hear that.

i wish you success in your endeavour to live, full-time, in this restful, peaceful, secure, affectless, and conceptless state you describe in a fully functional way that allows you to use words as necessary and drive your truck safely. let us know when it becomes permanent.

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:

i wish you success in your endeavour to live, full-time, in this restful, peaceful, secure, affectless, and conceptless state you describe in a fully functional way that allows you to use words as necessary and drive your truck safely. let us know when it becomes permanent.



I don't endeavour to live full time in this or that state. Whatever happens, happens. Neither do I strive to make any state permanent.

I have 2 questions to ask from you. Do you ever get knots in your spine? If you look at a video on a flat screen, do you see the picture as 2D or 3D?
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:

i wish you success in your endeavour to live, full-time, in this restful, peaceful, secure, affectless, and conceptless state you describe in a fully functional way that allows you to use words as necessary and drive your truck safely. let us know when it becomes permanent.




I don't endeavour to live full time in this or that state. Whatever happens, happens. Neither do I strive to make any state permanent.

I have 2 questions to ask from you. Do you ever get knots in your spine? If you look at a video on a flat screen, do you see the picture as 2D or 3D?


oh.. ok, then i wish you success in your lack of endeavour to live full time in any state, no matter how restful, peaceful, secure, affectless, conceptless, and functional, and in your lack of endeavour to avoid any state, no matter how restless, conflicted, insecure, affected, conceptually-mediated, and dysfunctional. as you have declared that you are inclined to let whatever happen, happen, and that you have no intent to make any state permanent, then i am content to leave you be to let your fate run its course.

as regards the question about knots in my spine: no.

as regards the question about a video on a flat screen: 4D.

;)

tarin
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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tarin greco:

as regards the question about a video on a flat screen: 4D.

;)



Are you trying to dodge my question?
Mic Hoe, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
tarin greco:

as regards the question about a video on a flat screen: 4D.

Are you trying to dodge my question?


Perhaps not. The screen is not relevant, your eyes are getting the same information to work with. Moreover, optical illusions are just as effective in 3d as they are in 2d, just harder to construct.

Here's a question:

When you see the dew drops on a plant. Do you 'feel' the wetness?
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S Kyle, modified 10 Years ago.

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Mic Hoe:


Here's a question:

When you see the dew drops on a plant. Do you 'feel' the wetness?


This question reminded me of a really wonderful moment I had with a leaf with water droplets on it. It was so lovely, I took a picture. The water looked like jewels on the leaf, it was really amazing.

s.
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Mic Hoe:

Perhaps not. The screen is not relevant, your eyes are getting the same information to work with. Moreover, optical illusions are just as effective in 3d as they are in 2d, just harder to construct.

Here's a question:

When you see the dew drops on a plant. Do you 'feel' the wetness?


What I said was that the 3rd dimension on a flat screen when watching a video (which is 2D) is an illusion. Yes I know that my eyes are getting the same information. It is the mind that produces the 3rd dimension. Just as the time gets produced by the mind when it sees a clock, so does the 3rd dimension. Maybe you didn't understand what I said otherwise you wouldn't say that a flat screen is not relevant. To answer your question about wetness, no I don't feel the wetness when seeing it.

My question to actually free people is whether they see a video on a screen which can only produce a 2D picture appears as 3D? In case it appears 3D, can you try and see if you can see it as 2D?
Anon2 Anon, modified 10 Years ago.

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Does it really matter whether actually free people can see in 2D or not, Aman? What relevance does your question have to the Hurricane Ranch conversation? You are only trolling this forum, I am sorry to say.
Mic Hoe, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
What I said was that the 3rd dimension on a flat screen when watching a video (which is 2D) is an illusion. Yes I know that my eyes are getting the same information. It is the mind that produces the 3rd dimension. Just as the time gets produced by the mind when it sees a clock, so does the 3rd dimension. Maybe you didn't understand what I said otherwise you wouldn't say that a flat screen is not relevant.

You know you need two eyes to get depth perception? Otherwise other things are used, like depth of field, familiarity, expectation. Try looking into the distance with one eye closed. You may find your ability to see in 3D isn't very good at all. I tried last night and fooled myself well. This is what I meant by the screen not being relevant. It's not as if the light comes into our eyes 'in 3d' in the world and only 2d from a screen. We only have a retina to do this vision thing, and this is flat, like a screen.

I don't think I know what the point of the question is. We construct all our experience.
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Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
My question to actually free people is whether they see a video on a screen which can only produce a 2D picture appears as 3D? In case it appears 3D, can you try and see if you can see it as 2D?


I'm not Actually Free. I can see the 2D screen at will, and I can buy into the illusion of perspective at will. I could do so even before the shift I choose to call "stream entry". I could do so in childhood, in fact, ever since I experimented with covering one eye, ever since I noticed the double vision artifacts that occur when looking at something really close.

What does this have to do with AF or the Heart Sutra, for that matter?

Cheers,
Florian
Mic Hoe, modified 10 Years ago.

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Florian Weps:
What does this have to do with AF or the Heart Sutra, for that matter?

Well it doesn't take long in this business to be filled with ideas about 'seeing things as they really are', seeing the 'true nature' of things and being 'free of illusion' etc. From a subjective point of view it can be difficult to square this with the obviousness of illusion in the world. And as a teaching it can simply serve to strengthen the subjective perspective, and for a cynic lead to funny questions like 'does a color blind person get better when they are enlightened( = free of illusion)?' This is one way I can relate to the question.

However, as for seeing things as they really are, like I said, 'we construct all our experience' ;)
Ram Ravan, modified 10 Years ago.

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on 2D and 3D stuff .. here is something from UG Krishnamurti and Richard on perception of the world.

From the AF Site



RESPONDENT: Richard, a question came to me this evening while watching a video of U.G. Krishnamurti. He stated that for him, perception has no ‘depth’. In some sense, everything seen is ‘flat’. This seems to relate specifically to his claim that ‘thought’ is what gives rise to ‘self’. The reason I say this is that it seems that he is saying that his perception has had any mental content stripped away – some sort of pure perception. Of course, I know your position differs with his account on this.

An example he gives is of seeing a tree. He says the tree trunk is not round to his eyesight – it is flat. It’s as if all 3 dimensionality has evaporated. To me, it sounds similar to what some psychologists have speculated the perceptual experience of a newborn might be like – seeing ‘surfaces’ only – without concepts.

I don’t know what you know of Bernadette Roberts – but she says virtually the same thing – her perception of the world is ‘flat’ – which is very close to the way U.G. describes his perception. Anyway, there is no way for me to know what their ‘non-experience’ is like, but I don’t hear anything from you that is like what they are saying.

During my experience of a ‘mini-PCE’ as I’ve called it, I don’t remember perception as ‘flat’ or ‘without depth’. You describe the actual world as there being ‘no separation’, yet still space and time exist. Does that mean that there is still ‘depth’? I’m not sure how better to ask this question, but I think maybe you understand what I’m asking?

What is really amazing to me is that Bernadette Roberts and U.G. describe what seem to be very similar ‘states’ – and actual freedom is also likewise without ‘self’ – yet I anticipate that your experience is much, much different. I am guessing you will say that there is ‘depth’ to your perception in the actual world.

If I’m correct that your experience is drastically different from U.G.’s in this respect ... do you have any idea at all what might have happened to U.G. that at least partially nullified the working of thought, meaning, mind, etc in his ‘experience?’ Whatever it was seems to be repeated to some degree in Bernadette Roberts.

RICHARD: First and foremost: as the physical world is a three-dimensional world, as evidenced by bodily locomotion, three-dimensional perception (stereoscopic vision) is in accord with actuality – whereas two-dimensional perception (flat vision) is not – and even a blind person knows that a tree is round by running their hands around it (perceiving tactually rather than visually).

One way to comprehend what flat vision is like is to cover one eye and observe what happens when stereoscopic vision is no longer operating ... which is a device I learned at art college when beginning to draw and paint and initially had difficulty in transcribing the three-dimensionality of objects in the physical world into the two-dimensionality of objects in the representational world of paper or canvas. It will be seen that the depth of stereoscopic vision (depth of field) vanishes and everything is reduced to overlapping two-dimensional planes (as on paper or canvas) with size (near or distant) and chiaroscuro (light and shadow) and distinction (clear or hazy) being the main characteristics of one-eyed visual depth.

As to why the people you refer to see the world in a one-eyed way I could speculate that it may be nothing more than an involuntary outcome of dissociation: as the physical world is unreal to a dissociated mind (Mr Uppaluri Krishnamurti claims that thought creates time and space and matter) the resultant object estrangement can render everything two-dimensional visually – in a cardboard cut-out dream-like way – even though such a person still behaves in a three-dimensional manner (such as walking around in their visually flat world) ... which should bodily demonstrate to them that their vision is playing tricks upon them. And I only say this because I can recall seeing everything in a cardboard cut-out dream-like way myself, when in a solipsistic state many years ago, where everything was as if it were stage-prop scenery ... as in painted back-drops.

Locomotion soon disabused me of this notion, however.

I would suggest taking Mr. Uppaluri Krishnamurti’s ruminations on the subject of visual perception (as in a flat perception somehow being a pure perception) with a grain of salt ... as I would suggest doing with virtually all his explanations. For example, as he claims that thought creates the tree referred to (a tree is matter located in space and existing in time) it follows that when thought is not operating there would be no tree at all – a non-dimensional tree as it were – yet it turns out that there is a tree after all ... albeit a two-dimensional tree.

O what a tangled web they weave when first they practice to deceive.

Put simply: stereoscopic vision has nothing to with whether there is an identity present inside the body or not and has everything to do with two side-by-side eyes x-distance apart being able to converge on the same thing simultaneously – in contrast to those animals with eyes on either side of their head being unable to converge – which provides for depth of field vision. This is born out by aerial mapping where two cameras mounted under each wing provide photographs in relief as contrasted to a single camera providing photographs without relief.

Lastly, my experience is that, irregardless of whether thought is happening or not, stereoscopic vision operates anyway
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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@Ram Ravan, thanks for the links to what UG and Richard think about 2D and 3D.

Richard and respondent are not talking about a video that is being played on flat screen, they are talking about the real physical world and that obviously is 3D.

@Mic Hoe, I'm interested in knowing what kind of an experience does an actually free person constructs. I know that 2 eyes are needed for depth perception. But the depth perception should stop at the flat screen, it should not go on to create depth about the video that is going on at the screen. If it does, then it is due to familiarity and expectation (imagination) that you talk about.

Hurricane Ranch conversation involves talking about time and so I wanted to know about space as well. Is this trolling, anon2 anon?

Florian, yes it is no big deal seeing video on a flat screen as 2D. I just wanted to know does an actually free person sees it as such always?

Wouldn't anyone of you want to know if an actually free person is constructing something imaginary?
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Florian Weps, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
Wouldn't anyone of you want to know if an actually free person is constructing something imaginary?


I don't know about you or the others, but that's just beating about the bush.

What I really need to know is whether Actually Free people talk about Unicorns when having sex.

I can't help but notice how we're merrily constructing something imaginary here.

Cheers,
Florian
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Florian Weps:

I don't know about you or the others, but that's just beating about the bush.

What I really need to know is whether Actually Free people talk about Unicorns when having sex.

I can't help but notice how we're merrily constructing something imaginary here.


I want to know that because of the claims that they don't have any imagination. Though claims of two actually free people may differ ranging from one having no free will (Richard's claim as pointed out by Guillherme) and having unfettered free will as claimed by Trent.
Trent H., modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
I want to know that because of the claims that they don't have any imagination. Though claims of two actually free people may differ ranging from one having no free will (Richard's claim as pointed out by Guillherme) and having unfettered free will as claimed by Trent.


Hi,

That issue is likely to be related to the meaning each of us (probably differently) ascribes to the term 'free will,' and not of the actual condition itself. And since I have not really thought about the issue in depth, nor studied it philosophically in an academic sense, it is likely that I am incorrectly conveying this aspect of my experience of being alive as a flesh and blood body sans identity. It is no big deal either way, as the experience is what it is regardless.

Trent
Trent H., modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:
I just wanted to know does an actually free person sees it as such always?

Wouldn't anyone of you want to know if an actually free person is constructing something imaginary?


Hi,

Eyes are organs that detect light, and convert that light into electro-chemical signals.

Whether the organ is detecting light in an actual three dimensional environment-- such as the room I'm sitting in now; illuminated primarily by sun light-- or whether it is detecting light via a two dimensional viewing device in that three dimensional environment-- such as this monitor I'm currently viewing; which is illuminated via electricity, liquid crystals, and other intermediary components -- the fundamental perception (nor the intellect's ability to discern various patterns therein) does not change. Viewing devices such as these are yet another fantastic display of human ingenuity!

It follows then that whether one is perpetually discerning the dimensional quality of this monitor's screen (or the room it's sitting in) has nothing to do with one's imagination (unless one imagines that to be the case).

Trent
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Trent H.:


It follows then that whether one is perpetually discerning the dimensional quality of this monitor's screen (or the room it's sitting in) has nothing to do with one's imagination (unless one imagines that to be the case).



That is what I wanted to know whether an actually free person can discern dimensional quality of the monitor or not (I used the word imagination for the work that mind does to shield the 2D quality of the monitor, maybe more appropriate would be subconscious imagination).
Mic Hoe, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman, could you give an example of what you consider to be an non mediated (be it mediated via 'subconscious imagination' or whatever) experience?
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Mic Hoe:
Aman, could you give an example of what you consider to be an non mediated (be it mediated via 'subconscious imagination' or whatever) experience?


When one is experiencing emptiness, it appears that it is non mediated to the subject although to an outside observer it will appear to be a mediated experience and hence your observation that we construct all our experience is true (you being the outside observer). Experience of emptiness is still a subjective experience. But while one is in it, it doesn't appear to be so. My subjective view is that self remains no matter what the claims of Buddhists or AF is but it doesn't appear to be so to the people who are experiencing the particular states of mind which each of them propagate. But this subjective view comes on only when on this side of the boundary. So I don't really know and now it doesn't really matter to know. Samsara and nirvana to be the same thing makes sense.

I was interested in knowing about experience of Time, Space, and Knowledge of an actually free person. Tarin had already talked about Time. I wanted to know about Space. AF Knowledge is available on AF website.

I wanted to contrast it with experience of Time, Space, and Knowledge of a Buddhist and see which one of the two results in the least of the mediated experience for me.

The following line about Buddhist Knowledge is from this link: http://tska.info/know3.html#

An integrated, natural intelligence, unfragmented into reason, emotions, sensations, and intuition, is our greatest treasure, and our key to progress. (p. xxxiv, TSK)

My experience is that sensations themselves which are treasured so much by AF can cloud the integrated, natural intelligence that the author of the above line (Tarthang Tulku) is talking about. This still remains 'my' subjective experience. AF people may have different experience without there being a subject. My experience might be wrong and yours correct.
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Mic Hoe:
Aman, could you give an example of what you consider to be an non mediated (be it mediated via 'subconscious imagination' or whatever) experience?


When there is no one to claim about sensations (no mind as in zen, instead of someone claiming sensations as in AF) and there is absolutely perfect synchronization between the physical body and the universe (as Richard claims it that he has no free will).

But maybe this is impossible to achieve?
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 10 Years ago.

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When there is no one to claim about sensations (no mind as in zen, instead of someone claiming sensations as in AF) and there is absolutely perfect synchronization between the physical body and the universe (as Richard claims it that he has no free will).

But maybe this is impossible to achieve?


Of course not... at least hypothetically by a physical human body (hardware) freed from that "persona" and "soul" (software).
The fact is: don´t matter the sort of consciousness whatever (sensation/apperception, feeling/emotion or idea/thinking)... all this tend to discharge into some motor effect. And this motor effect need not always be an instinctual behaviour. Do you know about "idiosyncrasy"? Like a mind, each body has one.

Now, and again, a last question to you, my fellow Aman:
- When your personal crusade, or raison d'être, against AF will be finished?
Be an exception, not the norm.
Sincerely,
Luciano
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 10 Years ago.

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That is what I wanted to know whether an actually free person can discern dimensional quality of the monitor or not (I used the word imagination for the work that mind does to shield the 2D quality of the monitor, maybe more appropriate would be subconscious imagination).


Hello Aman,

Good to see you here emoticon
Your intermittent search for gaps seems to reveal a type of "Mexican standoff"*:
You recognise that the information (i.e. Actual Freedom from the Human Condition) is true and don’t want to deny it, but at the same time you don’t want to accept its implications. So, you can not go forward or go back...
Why not give to yourself an experiential period to actually test the actualism method and its 'assumptions'?
Maybe a 40 days experiment...
Nothing left to lose, remember? And during this empirical test, like a collateral effect, do you have a great possibility to achieve that so-called "Emptiness". Who knows?
Anyway, once you discover and atest your own explanation of the human condition then you will know that all your dilemmas are now explained.
Once you know this, that the human condition - including your own condition - has been explained and defended at the core level, you can leave the issue of your own and the world’s alienation behind as effectively dealt with and - why not? - allow the dissemination of this information throughout the rest of the world and to a fresh generation. Altruism.
Five millennium living under the impasse of the human condition was enough.
Go ahead my fellow!
Sincerely,
Luciano

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Luciano de Noeme Imoto:

Your intermittent search for gaps seems to reveal a type of "Mexican standoff"*:
You recognise that the information (i.e. Actual Freedom from the Human Condition) is true and don’t want to deny it, but at the same time you don’t want to accept its implications. So, you can not go forward or go back...
Why not give to yourself an experiential period to actually test the actualism method and its 'assumptions'?
Maybe a 40 days experiment...
Nothing left to lose, remember? And during this empirical test, like a collateral effect, do you have a great possibility to achieve that so-called "Emptiness". Who knows?
Anyway, once you discover and atest your own explanation of the human condition then you will know that all your dilemmas are now explained.
Once you know this, that the human condition - including your own condition - has been explained and defended at the core level, you can leave the issue of your own and the world’s alienation behind as effectively dealt with and - why not? - allow the dissemination of this information throughout the rest of the world and to a fresh generation. Altruism.
Five millennium living under the impasse of the human condition was enough.
Go ahead my fellow!
Sincerely,
Luciano


Thank you for your advice Luciano. I have already experimented with Actual Freedom and unfortunately for me, it appeared as if I was fabricating Actual Freedom out of thin air. And then it appeared to me that I almost got into an accident because of experimenting with AF. I realize that this also could be a fabrication of my own mind.

Like I said on yahoo groups that you can take a donkey to a pond but can't make it to drink water, I wasn't able to make my donkey brain drink the waters of Actual Freedom. I'm dumb like a donkey, eh? emoticon I wish Actual Freedom could do something about the basic lack of intelligence in humans like myself.
Luciano de Noeme Imoto, modified 10 Years ago.

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Great Aman!
Your today approach are more down-to-earth.
I agree that subjective "emptiness" experience of the mind (from a live and physical brain´s operation) could be self-fabricated, as the dreams and hallucinations (ASC). Meditation and other forms of mental skills also allow one to enhance - or suppress - different aspects of the mind at will.
So, your goal is improve your intelligence?
If you put the 'donkey' (i.e. the instinctual passions located in the primitive reptilian brain) in standby mode you could to ascertain this meta... and much more!
The human being conscience have developed to a high degree, right? And that experiences we have of "pure" selflessness happens when psychological angst lost its power over the mind and the body conscience becomes the dominant perception or agent in our mind (remember: there are three I's altogether... but only one is actual).
But in everyday life all our minds systems (animal self, social identity, thoughts, customs, etc) are functioning together. A perfect mess, I mean, "Human Condition". This includes our more ancient "selfish" mind plenty of behaviour which has no reflective autonomous component (because its origin predates our social stage) and thus "conscience" like aspect.
Think about my fellow.
Sincerely,
Luciano
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Dark Night Yogi, modified 10 Years ago.

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I can relate with you Aziz Solomon with your relating it to Vipassana. The way it hits me is PCE is something like Goenka Body scanning, where you train yourself to neglect your thoughts and emotions and focus only on sense experiences. In his case, only sensations. In AF's case, all 5 senses.

I have felt PCE's during meditation, on retreat, in everyday life in days of strong meditation, during childhood, and am able to tap into it easily when I try (although i've only tried it while reading about it on this site therefore somewhat calm). It feels good and also has this momentum to it. I feel emotions and thoughts stir up like ripples that try tear the PCE apart, challenging my focus muscles. I've always found the PCE state Very cool and were among my most memorable and favorite meditation experiences. It gave me alot of drive to meditate and get enlightened because I thought that enlightenment WAS the PCE state.

Q1
The PCE hits me as a concentration state. I never found in reading texts about the Brahma Vihara's what exactly was the "Equanimity" mind state. Upekkha is considered a concentrated state, contrasting "beginner's mind", mindful awareness/single pointed awareness, Kenneth's 3rd gear (w/c also hits me as beginner's mind). Perhaps PCE lines up to the practice of Upekkha?

Q2
If PCE is a concentrated experience, does it limit or inhibit the range of behavioral possibilities? Does it change the psyche and in any way possibly make one indifferent, cold, or insensitive, or even if not, does it have an effect on their personalities? How does one in a PCE react to jokes/humor?
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Dark Night Yogi, modified 10 Years ago.

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On the controversy about the loss of emotion though, my interpretation of Theravada inclined or Theravada Buddhist meditation practitioners is that they are more attuned to seeing thru emotions first, rather than emphasis on compassion and love.
If this is the case, then there should be no problem with them using Actual Freedom,

Q3

You guys describe the shift to PCE as permanent. Do you just mean that it can be effortlessly applied anytime and in any situation, and can be switched on and off? Or do you mean that you Can't go back and that there was a real change in the consciousness/brain/physiology (like the enlightenment bio-energetic process)

If it is the former, then doesnt that make it sort of like a concentration state.. or if not, then sort of like a Trance state - There is a grip, a Vicarra and Vitaka aspect to it. While concentration states allow one to move tighter and tighter or allow the application of more power, effort and energy to the state, trance states are simply a static "as is" state where theres nothing to control.
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Dark Night Yogi, modified 10 Years ago.

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Signlessness

Q4
I experience states of seeing the signlessness of things when in High Equanimity Nana and near Fruitons. Sometimes for moments sometimes for longer. I really love this experience. It's like seeing everything as dead, seeing myself in the mirror as an animated corpse... my attempts at PCE though seem to not give me a state as pure or perfect or absolute as this, but it seems to lead in that direction? Does PCE increase the chances of having these glimpses and experiences of "signlessness"?
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tarin greco, modified 10 Years ago.

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hi mitch,

Dark Night Yogi:
I can relate with you Aziz Solomon with your relating it to Vipassana. The way it hits me is PCE is something like Goenka Body scanning, where you train yourself to neglect your thoughts and emotions and focus only on sense experiences. In his case, only sensations. In AF's case, all 5 senses.


the practice of actualism is not training oneself to 'neglect thoughts and emotions'. rather, it involves both:

1- attending to sensuous[1] experience (which comprises the five senses plus mental activity.. it just so happens that most of what goes on is physically sensate) and

2- attending to one's feelings (so that 'i' really get to know what makes me 'tick'.. it just so happens that attending to one's feelings with the aim of knowing them as clearly as possible orients one toward the elimination of the condition upon which feelings dependently arise - the condition of 'me').


Dark Night Yogi:

I have felt PCE's during meditation, on retreat, in everyday life in days of strong meditation, during childhood, and am able to tap into it easily when I try (although i've only tried it while reading about it on this site therefore somewhat calm). It feels good and also has this momentum to it. I feel emotions and thoughts stir up like ripples that try tear the PCE apart, (...)


well, emotions do 'tear the PCE apart' in the sense that when they are stirred up, one is simply no longer in a pce. thoughts, on the other hand, do not necessarily, unless they are precipitated by a passional stirring.

Dark Night Yogi:

challenging my focus muscles. I've always found the PCE state Very cool and were among my most memorable and favorite meditation experiences. It gave me alot of drive to meditate and get enlightened because I thought that enlightenment WAS the PCE state.


what motivates you now?


Dark Night Yogi:

Q1
The PCE hits me as a concentration state. I never found in reading texts about the Brahma Vihara's what exactly was the "Equanimity" mind state. Upekkha is considered a concentrated state, contrasting "beginner's mind", mindful awareness/single pointed awareness, Kenneth's 3rd gear (w/c also hits me as beginner's mind). Perhaps PCE lines up to the practice of Upekkha?


no, the pce does not line up to the brahma vihara state upekkha. knowing how to do upekkha well probably wouldn't hurt though.


Dark Night Yogi:

Q2
If PCE is a concentrated experience, does it limit or inhibit the range of behavioral possibilities? Does it change the psyche and in any way possibly make one indifferent, cold, or insensitive, or even if not, does it have an effect on their personalities? How does one in a PCE react to jokes/humor?


as the pce is not a concentrated experience, then strictly speaking, your questions here are unanswerable. however, i can say, from my own experience anyway, that experiencing pce's did not (and being actually free does not) make me indifferent, cold, or insensitive.. experiencing the actual world is far too vivid, fun, and rich to possibly be uninterested, aloof, or dull.

as regards a change in personality, i find that i'm no longer ever sarcastic, not even slightly. (what reason is there to be?)


Dark Night Yogi:

Q3

You guys describe the shift to PCE as permanent. Do you just mean that it can be effortlessly applied anytime and in any situation, and can be switched on and off? Or do you mean that you Can't go back and that there was a real change in the consciousness/brain/physiology (like the enlightenment bio-energetic process)


presumably, what you are talking about is becoming actually free. if so, the latter - there was a real change and, as far as i can tell, i can't go back.

if, on the other hand, you are talking about people who are not actually free having pce's (wherein 'being' goes into abeyance), then it is a temporary experience, despite whatever else it may convey.


Dark Night Yogi:

Signlessness

Q4
I experience states of seeing the signlessness of things when in High Equanimity Nana and near Fruitons. Sometimes for moments sometimes for longer. I really love this experience. It's like seeing everything as dead, seeing myself in the mirror as an animated corpse... my attempts at PCE though seem to not give me a state as pure or perfect or absolute as this, but it seems to lead in that direction? Does PCE increase the chances of having these glimpses and experiences of "signlessness"?


i'll answer your question, but if you could first clarify something: what is it about 'seeing everything as dead, seeing [yourself] in the mirror as an animated corpse' that you find to be 'pure or perfect or absolute'?

tarin

[1]
‘sensuous’ (a.): Of, derived from, or affecting the senses aesthetically rather than sensually; readily affected by the senses, keenly responsive to the pleasures of sensation. Also, indicative of a sensuous temperament. Apparently first used by Mr. John Milton, to avoid certain associations of the existing word ‘sensual’. (Oxford Dictionary).
ManZ A, modified 10 Years ago.

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I've been wondering, when you are actually free are thoughts still the same? I mean like right now when I think of something there's an image of the object or whatever that goes through my head. Say I left my books at home, so I remember the place where I left them and when I do this an image of the place and the book appears in my mind. Does this still happen? I know somewhere it was said that you can't visualize. Or how about this, when I'm thinking, the "sound" of myself talking goes through my head. Does this still happen? I mean how is it (a thought)?

Another question, it was said somewhere that there are additional qualities that are gained when one becomes actually free that are not present in a PCE. What are these?
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Luciano de Noeme Imoto:
Great Aman!
Your today approach are more down-to-earth.
I agree that subjective "emptiness" experience of the mind (from a live and physical brain´s operation) could be self-fabricated, as the dreams and hallucinations (ASC). Meditation and other forms of mental skills also allow one to enhance - or suppress - different aspects of the mind at will.
So, your goal is improve your intelligence?
If you put the 'donkey' (i.e. the instinctual passions located in the primitive reptilian brain) in standby mode you could to ascertain this meta... and much more!
The human being conscience have developed to a high degree, right? And that experiences we have of "pure" selflessness happens when psychological angst lost its power over the mind and the body conscience becomes the dominant perception or agent in our mind (remember: there are three I's altogether... but only one is actual).
But in everyday life all our minds systems (animal self, social identity, thoughts, customs, etc) are functioning together. A perfect mess, I mean, "Human Condition". This includes our more ancient "selfish" mind plenty of behaviour which has no reflective autonomous component (because its origin predates our social stage) and thus "conscience" like aspect.
Think about my fellow.


My goal is to improve knowledge using the limited intelligence that I have. Up until now, I have observed that relying too much on sensations can cloud the intelligence.

I agree with Tarthang Tulku when he says:

An integrated, natural intelligence, unfragmented into reason, emotions, sensations, and intuition, is our greatest treasure, and our key to progress. (p. xxxiv, TSK) http://tska.info/know3.html#

You know that emotions cloud intelligence. But may be do not know that sensations themselves do the same thing. I don't want to lose the greatest treasure to gain perfection based on sensations.
Sridhar R, modified 10 Years ago.

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Aman A.:

My goal is to improve knowledge using the limited intelligence that I have. Up until now, I have observed that relying too much on sensations can cloud the intelligence.


What about relying on sensible thinking though? For example, you may ask "Is it sensible to feel restless, conflicted, insecure, affected, conceptually-mediated, and dysfunctional right now?" I am writing this specific example in the context of sensible thinking, because you wrote earlier that you "[don't] endeavour to live full time in this or that state" nor do you "strive to make any state permanent" ... which goes to imply that you don't endeavour to live full time in a happy and harmless state, nor do you strive to make any state of happy and harmlessness permanent. But why?

Aman A.:

I agree with Tarthang Tulku when he says:

An integrated, natural intelligence, unfragmented into reason, emotions, sensations, and intuition, is our greatest treasure, and our key to progress. (p. xxxiv, TSK) http://tska.info/know3.html#


He also says "There is no longer a 'looker', but instead, only a 'knowingness' which can see more broadly, from all sides and points of view at once. " ... which reminds me of the primordial awareness / total acceptance common among spiritual practices. This 'knowledge' that the "The Time, Space, and Knowledge Association" speaks of is not what lay people and scientists call as 'knowledge'.

Aman A.:

You know that emotions cloud intelligence. But may be do not know that sensations themselves do the same thing.


As in ... an affectless, sensuous PCE causing physical danger such as getting run over by a trunk? Having not experienced a PCE, I cannot comment here, except too say that this is too trifle a concern in relation to the amount of psychological suffering that exists in this world ...

Aman A.:
I don't want to lose the greatest treasure to gain perfection based on sensations.


.. however, I am highly skeptical as to whether this 'greatest treasure' or 'knowledge' or 'intelligence' has any relevance to either ordinary everyday experience or being happy and harmless. As I remarked above, it seems to me that you are only interested in total acceptance [of whatever happens] and/or the primordial awareness that accepts everything.

All I can suggest at this point is to re-read our 2007 discussion, as I too unfortunately had this opinion
http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/conv-sridhar-daniel.html

It did me no good, man.
Aman A., modified 10 Years ago.

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Sridhar R:


.. however, I am highly skeptical as to whether this 'greatest treasure' or 'knowledge' or 'intelligence' has any relevance to either ordinary everyday experience or being happy and harmless. As I remarked above, it seems to me that you are only interested in total acceptance [of whatever happens] and/or the primordial awareness that accepts everything.

All I can suggest at this point is to re-read our 2007 discussion, as I too unfortunately had this opinion
http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/conv-sridhar-daniel.html

It did me no good, man.


I understand that it did you no good. But what you are doing now, I did the same thing with AF in the beginning. I made judgments about it without trying out the method. So what you are doing now about this 'greatest treasure' etc is what I was doing earlier i.e. making judgments without trying out the method.

I would suggest that before making any conclusions about what it may or may not be, read the book Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality and do the exercises given in it and then make up your mind accordingly. It will also be of interest to someone who wants to get to know about the ways of Tantrayana/Vajrayana as well. It will give you a taste of how it works and what kind of methods are used.

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