Welcome to my practice journal.

I hope I will be diligent in adding info about how the practice unfold (I’m using a physical book near my cushion but the last note was from 1 month ago :/). I’ve always found hard to write about life.

Let’s talk a bit about my history briefly:

- Traveled around Asia for about a year end up doing 2 retreats (8 days anapana Thai monastery & Goenka 10 days in Myanmar)
- Read MCTB2 
- Craved for SE so much
- Followed TMI instruction as a main practice
- Got first path in a Goenka retreat
- Finished another insight cycle (3 weeks ago)

Sitting at a minimum of 1h30 a day .
Currently trying to be more on the samatha side in practice hoping to get a real feel about jhanas but I always end up doing vipassana and investigate the experience so I just go with the flow each sit I guess.
I also tend to practice ‘’do nothing’’ kind of way or 'just sit' I believe. Or just watch the sense of self and see the 3c’s of it. I honestly feel like I mix every methods to get insights going or get to ‘’nothing’’ state by letting go which is good practice imo even if it's completly a mess lol.
I booked a 2 weeks Mahasi retreat in may with Sayadaw U Vivekananda and Sayalay Ma Vimalana which I’m quite excited about.
I’ve never went on a noting retreat but used noting in daily life sometimes or when sitting when struggling or enhence mindfulness.
I’m having huge pain in my neck and shoulders since 3 months ago I’m wandering if it’s due to practice.
I'm planning/dreaming about taking another year off or more and explore the monasteries in depth in Asia but I can't figure out if this is actually due to craving for liberation or wanting to hide from society or both or just passion for dharma.

Thanks for reading.

Welcome Mathias and thank you for willing to share with us!

I am really looking forward to what you have to say as Im in a similar place; trying to do mre of a Samatha Jhana practice but the mind is so inclined to just keep Noting what ever arises or passes. As you I too just keep letting it all in and go with the flow without forcing any particular practice unless I really get to feel some up hill heavy movement which I will treat with full on Freestyle Noting Aloud as thought by Kenneth Folk (this helped me a lot with my first Dark Night to plow through it get it done and done).

At the moment Im not inclined to continue to practice regularely as I felt the sencond path cycle starting very soon after the fruition. I simply dont feel ready to plunge on as I have been stuck in the Dark Night for 9 years and caused so much damage in my personal life. Now Im working on a resolution to stay in the Review faze and focus more on the social life and other stuff like getting a job again which (was jobless for 8 years thanks to Dark Night). Job I have found and it feels great to be amongst people again and share the struggles of every day mundain life. Also I've devorced from my wife during the DN faze so now trying to do my best to fix that as she remained beside me even after the divorce and Im very thankfull for it. We have a 4 year old son so Im also doing my best to be with him in the now and enjoy every moment as much as I can.

But I do feel that Dhamma Wheel waits for no one and it just might start rolling even if Im not totally ready to continue plowing through it a new just yet. So I am kind of warming up for the second round especially as I am feeling some Fear factor coming up as of late which was not a big deal in my first Dark Night where Disgust and Misery took over the main stage in Re-Observation. Could be just part of the Review but it also might be a Ouverture for whats coming in the Round 2 (hide)  

Any way, just wanted to welcome you and let you know that you are being appreciated. Personal sharing brings people closer together hence me sharing all the above. 

Thank you and looking forward to reading you.

BTW, I forgot to mention the neck/back pain. I had terrible neck and back pain for 3 weeks now (3 C's) and it stopped yesterday. Felt very good and lots of energy surging through my body and head (A&P). 
Not sure if the second stage is mixing up with the review stage of the first but something IS happening in my experience. 

Those who are in Review start the cycle from A&P and onwords while those on the start of the new path start from the very start M&B, C&E, 3 C's etc ...

Ingram does mention that those inbetween 2 paths can experience "fork in the path" as one is unsure which one is the 2nd path and which the Review of the first one. Oh boy  

Thanks for the welcoming!

Hope you will be fine practicing this time during the dark night, it looked ugly .
But honestly being post stream entry is not the same as before. It should be way better now.

I've always been confuse about where I was in the path from the progress of insight. I could guess where I was only when in retreats but not in daily life conditions somewhow. It's just too vague for me.

During the 2nd path cycle I didn't feel the dark night at all in daily life (as for first path, I guess I'am lucky) only some frustrations about practice and then stayed in EQ for 3 months but I wasn't exactly sure about where I was until I went in solo-retreat it felt like the cycle completly reset ( I heard that's what retreats do) was yoyo-ing beteween Desire for Delivrance & Re-observation & low EQ ( that is my interpretation of the map) for 3 days then gave up the retreat & cessation happened 2 days after back home and my meditation went crazy again which I interpret as being in Review so I basically finished my 2nd full cycle but I don't really want to claim 2ndpath yet.

Let's strive for samatha practice then!

I envy you my friend that really sounds like an enjoyable practice to have without the Tsunamis of Dark Night. Im happy for you.

As Im dealing with PTSD since my childhood really (now 45 years old) I could expect all sorts of stuff likely to come up as meditation is investigation of our own mind-body and such traumatised mind-body will show off all sorts of nasties Hence me warming up for any possibility. Its good to have a welcoming attitude and an atitude of acceptance of what ever might arise and pass away.


According to Ingram's first edition book one friend of his had a very easy DN in the 1st path and 2nd one was much worse and lasted for years. There are no one-size-fits-all-rule in these waters in seems thats ok.


Indeed, I dont claim anything really either but use all my experience for orientaion and looking at how Im faring in the every day life. How the perception behaves, interaction with people (especially not having any friends really diring those years of Dark Night I might have become a bit socialy inapt , learning baby steps now I guess. Im also letting the joy of the feeling "came back to one self" or "came back home" to sink in a bit as it feels refreshing after all these years in DN. 

There is this interest to observe how all my previous experience unfolds in real life rather than just on cushion (actually I use a chair). 

I never did any long retreats except a 3 day solo retreat but maintained a regular daily practice of 45-90 minutes once, twice or three times a day (with walking meditation inbetween a two sessions if time permits). Also during the day I would try and do some short 5-10 minutes "toilet meditations" Also doing Satipatthana practice when possible mostly the part on sensing feet touching the ground, but against a chair, chewing food, brishing teeth, showering, urinating  etc ... 

Yes, it can be difficult to recoginse the stages but for me they strated becoming more and more obvious. I never really went hard-core Maps but used them lightly at certain times to orientate myself and get some tips for that particular stage.

I dont think I will pursue Samatha practice this time. If it develops on its own as it did with my Noting Alud practice then I will investigate it but Im not sure it really is of such great importance in all this awakening business of mine. 
I'm considering to focus more on the Kenneth Folk's 3 Speed Transmition Model (still keeping the MCTB book for a peak or two along the way of course).

Certain ammount of Concentration is necessery of course but I dare to accume that Access Concentration is all one needs to do some serious down-to-earth-matter-of-fact awakening work. The rest is investigation or simple term for me is Simple Noticing without any story telling.

So for now Integrating what has been done so far into my daily life and fixing some bridges I broke along the way and to have a clear intention about which Model Im to use as swithing from one the the other for me just adds to more confusion. Dont get me wrong I like the Maps and they are so very helpful especially when things get out of hand (Dark Night) and you think you are going mad. But they also add a bit of too much assumption and a bit of story telling and wishfull thinking like "is it this or is it that" instead of staying on the road and just noting the whole thing as Doubt, Unpleasant, Thinking, ... Keeping a 99-100% unbroken stream of Noticing in my session has brought results even if all was done with minimal concentration level really.

I started Freestyle Noting Aloud last year (March or April I think, after almost 7 years of not practicing and even wanting to forget everything concerning the Dhamma during those dark years  )  and 5-6 months later Fruition came about. 
Hence me having confidence in Kenneth Folk's teaching. That dude is onto somtn' I'm telln' ya  

BTW, what country are you from? (you need not to answer unless you ok with that of course)

Hello, I'm from France near Swizerland.

I have noticed a tendencie in me to doubt about the methods. I always seem to believe that one need to be clever to find liberation, like noting/noticing stuffs happening isn't enough.

I also noticed lately that I was trying to analyse the method in a way to ''hack it''. To be able to take the short cut. I seem to not be able to recognize that noticing stuff arising & passing away is the shortcut.
I've started reading The Manual of Insight and there is this in the chapter of '' Liberations and hindrances ''
and also :
I think it describes the doubt that I have.I'm not sure about what he says here :and also : 

What do you guys think?

I'm so glad I found this text.  

Doubt will arise. About this or that or anything really. 

In seeing there is only the seen, in hearing there is only the heard ... in doubting there is only doubting g ... Wait!!!   well I can actually perceive at least 3 sensation in Doubting; I can notice/note Thinking, pressure in the chest and solar plexus and Unpleasant feeling. 

Apparently there is a Direct Path. Some people get it at once like in the Sutta story of Bahya. 
he asked Buddha to give him the very essence of his truth/teaching. 

Buddha agreed and said; "in seeing there is only the seen, in cognised only the cognised, in heard/seen/tasted etc "

"is that it?" Said Bahya. Buddha said "yes, that is The Truth I teach" (I'm paraphrasing here). 
Apparently Bahya attained to Arahatship at once and was killed that very day by a Cow with a calf. 

I'm also having the same thoughts/doubts/dilemmas about a short cut or a more Direct Path and yet still staying on the path  

I guess I seek for a more Simple Model than the Maps. Hence me showing more interest in Kenneth Folks 3 Speed Transmition. 

1st Gear is Noting
2nd Gear is Observing the Knower of this Experience
3rd is surrendering into ... whatever that is  

Noting is there as Reality Checking. Noting or Noticing will be of benefit all the way maybe even after Arahatship. Likely without much effort but I assume it's still considered Noticing. I've heard Shinzen staring that "even for him" it's not easy to do it in continuity without "some sort of Labeling". 

I will go on a bit more as I find this interesting  

If Everything is just Experience then Jhanic Bliss and Itch on my nose is exactly of same value = experience. Sure one has such feel and the other such feel but it Is Experience. So is Doubt the same as let say urinating. One has such and such feel the other such and such feel. 

From the Bahiya story we see that some folks need no Mastery to get to the final realization. It's Cognitive this Liberation business is Right? 

so I have to Know it before I can Awaken to it. 

How do I know it? I must shed some light onto it in accordance to see it. 
Am I in the 1st Gear? Noting/Knowing the sensate universe. 
Am I in 2nd Gear? Noting/Knowing the supposed Knowerof this Experience. 
Am I in 3rd Gear? Noting/Knowing the surrender. 

btw, I have a feeling that this surrender is not like becoming a vegetable in some bliss state so some sort of non-centralized Knowing/Noting ought to be there. 

I feel that Noting is with us all the Way. Why not get to know it well and make a good sport out of it? 

Also; 

From my experience I see No Chance for Doubt to take hold during an Unbroken stream of Noting Aloud. 

off the cushion yes it can. Fine no worries. But on the cushion Note the heck out of it if it arises. 

I guess I just have to see the 3C's of doubt sensations as always but this doubt felt so real lol it makes me not noticing it & I fall into the content of it.

I like the 3 gear transmission I feel like it's kind of what I'm doing already.

About the sutta I've been thinking and complantating it recently. In the seen there is only the seen, in the heard just the heard,...
I guess the direct path is not for now for me too

Thanks a lot your input

Let's play on with this notion of Doubt/Dilemma/uncertainty. 

But before we do so let me respond;
Yes indeed. Falling into the content seems to be the very reason behind our suffering as we identify with it  as per automatic. It's kind of a hard wired reaction. 
Thats ok. Something to aspire to? Not really  

I must say that I'm still puzzled about what Kenneth Folk said to me about this Map/Attaining of Paths business. He said that it's not necessary to attain all the Paths to attain to "Awakening". It is however helpful if you aspire to be a teacher of this stuff. as is Jhana business as you might have students efficient in Absorbtion so good to know them to assist students in navigating them I guess. 

we didn't go deeper into this stuff of Direct Path as I showed no interest (He seems to work according to my aspirations and obsession/passions which at that time was Map of Insight Model). 


We all know that certain words are emotionally charged more than others and in certain times choosing less charged words can be of benefit especially if such word get us stuck like say Doubt. 

"I have a Dillema about this path" or "I experience uncertainty about this method" seems less charged and much softer to deal with and yet is about the same as using words Doubt. It's good to remember that it Does Not Matter weather we see the 3C's of the "I have a dilemma/uncertainty" or the Doubt thought/sensations, as direct Noting/Noticing of ANY arising will lead to Insight. 

this is how I now try to apply the Wholesome vs Unwholsome or Beneficial vs Non-beneficial. 
At times this approach might work and at others might very well be a slippery thing. Even if it proves only beneficial for Doubt then great stuff still. 

What do I know? I don't know, let me see (carries on Noting) 

Oh man Im really enjoying this Deconstructing Yourself Podcast with Kenneth Folk talking about Cosmic Joke. If you have time please do have listen as there is some fine stuff there. BTW, I love how Kenneth tells the Bahiya story 47:00 minutes in where he mentions the Best and The Worst meditator of all times )

https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078/embed?theme=dark-orange

I'm gonna check it out
Edit: I like the image of ''getting the joke''

Here a comment I received on reddit that I found helpful :
Nice.I think it's rather usual to have a phase of insecurity and "pathlessness" around there: The big "what's next", and "where do I go from here?" of second path, and the occsasisonal weirdness that comes with it do come up in Daniel's book IIRC.You brought up "surrender" in you previous post, and I think it might not be a bad idea at that point. The funny thing is that this works very well in combination with a strict method: When in doubt, you surrender to the method.Without a method, there is always a bit of a danger that you surrender to something, and you don't even notice what that is you are surrendering to.So in a way surrender is the point behind noting. Or at least a rather important part of it. When you drop all you are doing, and just do the thing instead, what happens? What stands in the way? What is lost? What is gained?Nobody knows.If anybody knew, we would see a lot of retreats advertised with: "4 paths in 4 weeks, sign up now!"Usually I would go with going with the method, when on a retreat that has competent teachers. Especially with noting, there is a certain depth to the practice, which especially starts to come out when one can start to drop verbal labeling.I'm increasingly unsure if "getting to" higher paths is a reasonable approach in the first place. As I see it, first and second path seem to be mainly a question of mastery. You learn the technique, ship yourself through the rough seas of the PoI, and then learn to navigate through that more reliably and then... well, yes. And then?I think things get more fuzzy then. You can do the thing. Now it's time to look at what stands in the way of doing the thing more effortlessly. When things are not easy, what is the problem?When there is doubt, when there is resistance, when there is lots of thinking about "Mahasi noting or not mahasi noting", what's the problem? When you just give that up, and surrender to the technique, what is lost? For example

Man you have No Idea how much your thread here is helping me and opening new possibilities Thank you for it and I hope we keep this thread going with less "being a pro attaining meditator" but more open to "getting the Cosmic Joke"  

Im listening to the podcast at this very moment as I couldnt finish it today. I am laughing like crazy at the moment You ought to hear it from 47:00 all the way to the end! This is some fantastic stuff shaking my meditator but big time Great stuff!

I will wait for you to hear this and then we can talk abou it some more. Im excited to hear your opinion on what Kenneth is saying!

p.s. btw, Kenneth does mention that he first time "got the Cosmic Joke" after attaining to Stream Entry, so maybe certain level of attainment necessery as we are not all as cleaver as Bahiya the best meditator of all times  

I must respond to this as I have had same pondering after the Fruition and told all this to Kenneth except that I was rather "WTF is all this Path Attaining Stuff?! I mean you go from one then you attain the next then the next and then what???" He just replied "Maybe you have got the Cosmic Joke, I dont know" I didnt really know anything about this but now that Im listening to this podcast and him elaborating and even comparing with his meditation years it just makes all the sense to me. That was the last time I spoke to Kenneth wonder now if he would have elaborated more on this or poke me with it if we met again? Dunno, matters not really.

But what you said above is so funny I mean really! "And then???" According to both Ingram and Kenneth there are so many new Jhanas after the 8 Conventional Jhanas. And if you ask me there could be million more Jhanas out there to attain But what then? HA! 

Yes! Lets try somthing out together as this will take only a few minutes of your time; Ask the question "And what then?" and just LISTEN without answering just listen as if someone or something might shout the answer back at you (it will not but listen as if someone might whisper it back to you and that someone is on the Moon, so you have to be very guiet really listening to be able to hear it, you will not but focus on what is there or  what is not there around this LISTENING). It seems to be very clear immediatelly after asking the question and then Listening (for me gets lost quickly BUT THATS IT or? Give it a try and then we compare with what you found out  

I've just listen to 47minutes to end - I liked a lot.

''This is it''

''How can it be different than this?''

I laughed so hard but didn't get the cosmic joke lol. Trying again and again.I could feel some resistance after a momment of ''non-dual'' feeling. It feels like I'm not ready yet to allow it happens. What about you?

Aks and listen again right now and see if there is any suffering in that very moment when you ask and then LISTEN   it can pass very fast but it is there, no suffering in that "in Listening there is ONLY Listening" meaning there is NO suffering in there. This is not about getting the joke and then becoming Awakened for ever This is just finding the needle in the stack of hey (and there are billions of needles in it so no rush). Opening the Mind in this way to experience might be The Way, not Mastery but the Way to actuall Awakeness moment to moment, each moement, to the next and there IS NOTHING BUT THIS yes indeed one is required to let go into only THIS Moment and Listen (or whatever), then again In THIS moment, then  in THIS moment, then in THIS ... get it? It can not be anything other than THIS  

Makes sense if Buddha was indeed teaching the 4 Noble Truths or? Suffering and the end of Suffering. He also said to Bahiya this is in short my teching as I must go for my Alms Round to get me some food In seeing there is only the Seen, In Listening there is only Listening etc ... Is it really this simple??? I mean really???

(just being sarcastic here)
Nah, Im not buying this, I want to put more effort into practice and attaining things on and on. I mean Ingram still chases after Magical Realms and stuff via deep Concentration and Fire Casina (or is he just having good time rather than chasing anything? ) Dunno. (End of sarcasm).

BTW, please do listen to the first part of it as well as its just fantastic stuff. He talks about CONR , great stuff aslo. "We are all in it".

Oh man Im still laughing like mad LOL about Kenneth telling that story about Bahiya being the Best student of them ALL and Buddha being the Worst as it took him such a long time to Get It I would argue that Daniel Ingram is the worst of them all as he is still pursuing practice LOL oh man I cant remember laughing so much in a LONG time  

Having a laugh is not a crime thankfully   (but I think my partner who is in another room, might be wondering whats going on with me and call the ambulance)!

If we cant be as great as Bahiya and simply Get It, we can at least try to be as Buddha LOL  oh, boy Im off to bed as I need  to work tomorrow and sleep sure helps.

Thank you for today Mathias!   Sleep well as sleep seems to be what Nirvana is according to Kenneth (Black Out) Ok, lights off, good night Zzzzzzz .... BLIP!

This is just getting better! "Masters of Oblivion" Do Awakened persons live in the Non-dual feel/perception 24/7 and what is Nirvana and more. Kenneth also here talks about what he does in his real day to day life when he feels suffering, and this is very interesting! It seems that awakened persons can fart just like an un-awakened one LOL

https://podtail.com/en/podcast/deconstructing-yourself/dy-003-masters-of-oblivion-with-guest-kenneth-folk/

Today just after a session at lunch break. I had some thoughts about turning crazy, like the sense of self would be stuck or something. I felt like I was in the verge of some sort of 'crisis'. I really didn't expect this. I've never had this sort of thoughts before.
I still have this fear and have no idea how to skillfully take this. 

Should I slowdown? I don't feel like I'm going too hard like I used to.