Concentration vs Insight

michael gross, modified 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 1:49 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 1:49 AM

Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 5 Join Date: 11/10/23 Recent Posts
I'm new here so I have a pretty basic question. 

I'm struggling to understand the practical difference between mindfulness of breath for concentration and noting of breath for insight. I understand the noting of breath should include a recognition of the 3 characteristics, but what does that recognition look like from a technic perspective. Is it the intellectual recognition that the rising and falling being noted is always disappearing and it's not satisfactory and is it's own recognition, or is it something more subtle? 

Noting of the breath just feels like concentration on the breath with verbal recognition added in. 

​​​​​​​i appreciate any insight you all might provide!
shargrol, modified 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 5:56 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 5:42 AM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 2417 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
It's a basic but a good question. Intention is the main difference.

With concentration, or I like to call it "centering", your intention is to have your attention flow with the experience of the physical sensations of the breath. There are different versions of it: flowing with the sensations of the belly rising and falling, sensations of air moving in and out of the nose, sensations of the nose itself as the breath moves past a point on the upper lip, etc.  (You'll want to chose what sensations your are going to define as "the breath" when doing concentration practice, because "the breath" really isn't some a thing in itself, it's a collection of experiences that get defined as "the breath".) 

In centering practice, everything that isn't "the breath" is considered a distraction and is gently ignored or dropped from attention, and attention is gently returned to "the breath". The intention of this practice is to develop the ability to drop the busyness of the mind are rest in the naturally occuring flow of sensations.

As a result, concentration can be calming (although it will be naturally difficult until the mind slowly learns how to calm down). Concentration can also be kind of represssive, because a lot of internal experiences (thoughts, emotions, urges) are defined as being "distractions" and are actively ignored. So sometimes concentration practice can be misused in a way to avoid thoughts, emotions, and urges that are uncomfortable and challenging. 

Conversely, the intent of insight practices is developing a clear experience of the present moment, AS IT IS, but using attention to breathing or noting or both as a way to support clarity of experience. In insight practice, nothing is considered a distraction except falling into a kind of non-attentive trance or thinking/analyzing too much about what is going on.

With insight practices, you want to have about 80% of your experience on physical sensations, emotional sensations, urges -- that kind of stuff -- and only about 20% thoughts. Usually we mostly live in thoughts, so this will initially feel like a big change in how we experience the world. 

Noting is used to make sure we stay with the clear experience of the present moment without falling into trance or discursive thinking. Most of us find that unless we make a verbal "note" about some aspect of experience every so often, we will naturally fall back into "thinking about" the present moment instead of experiencing it. In insight practice, the sensations of breathing are used in the same way. Unless we are at least gently aware of the sensations of breathing in the present moment, we probably aren't really experiencing the present moment --- after all, we're always breathing or we're dead. emoticon The other thing is that physical sensations are always occuring right in the present moment, so if you are experiencing physical sensations you must not be lost in thought.

As a result, insight practices tend to be much more active and stimulating. They can be frustrating too because it can be amazing how often we drift into thought and forget to note --- but no big deal, that's normal and isn't a problem. Basically each time we drift away we are learning about what causes us to drift away, and that learning is the main reason for doing insight practices!! We're learning how greed, aversion, and indifferance causes us to leave the present moment and go into "thinking about the present moment". So if we do get lost in a trance for a while, no big deal, just note what you were thinking about and you're already back in the present moment! emoticon

Hopefully that answer is helpful.

It probably is also important to say that "pure concentration" and "pure insight" are probably just conceptual ideas. The truth is all meditation practice contains a blend of concentration aspect and an insight aspect, you can't really force your mind to conform to an idealized version of what "should" happen in practice. What you'll find is that concentration practice supports insight and insight supports concentration and the "flavor" of meditation kinda moves between those two extremes during any particular sit. 

I personally found concentration practice nearly impossible at first, but noting practice gave me enough structure to support clearly experiencing the present moment. When I got more used to resting in the experience of the present moment, then the concentration flavor became more possible. And when resting in concentration states became easier, it was possible to notice even subtler aspects of the present moment that I couldn't sense before when my mind was so busy. This sort of back and forth is really common over long term practice.

There's no one right answer of what flavor of meditation you "should" do. Work with the reality of how practice seems to work for you. It's okay to emphasize concentration some days and insights other days, or even to change during a sit. Ultimately, what is most important is to learn how your mind experiences the present moment. Make a study of your own mind. Notice how thoughts, emotions, and physical sensations actually occur. Notice how greed, aversion, and indifference is part of your experience. Notice what causes frustrations. Notice what supports relief.

Here's a big hint: most of all, we learn that we need to accept what is already happening in experience. When we "fight" what is already occuring, we basically suffer. We learn and relearn this lesson in many different ways. All you really need to do is "see" how the mind works and this become obvious and we become transformed. The mind itself will naturally drop unhelpful and frustrating patterns of resistance and reactivity, but first you need to clearly see what is going on.  ​​​​​​

Hope this helps, best wishes!
thumbnail
Jim Smith, modified 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 7:44 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 7:24 AM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 1687 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
michael gross
I'm new here so I have a pretty basic question. 

I'm struggling to understand the practical difference between mindfulness of breath for concentration and noting of breath for insight. I understand the noting of breath should include a recognition of the 3 characteristics, but what does that recognition look like from a technic perspective. Is it the intellectual recognition that the rising and falling being noted is always disappearing and it's not satisfactory and is it's own recognition, or is it something more subtle? 

Noting of the breath just feels like concentration on the breath with verbal recognition added in. 

i appreciate any insight you all might provide!


I prefer the term tranquility to concentration as a translation for samatha. Acutally I think of it more as relaxation and concentration is something that is a kind of side effect of the practice.

To cultivate samatha by meditating on the breath I would try to relax while breathing in a relaxing way. It could be breathing naturally or a bit slower and deeper than normal. I would notice the pleasant feeling of relaxation while inhaling and exhaling. I might count the breats, up to 10 and then start over at 1 if my mind was turbulent and I needed something to help focus. I would also try not to let "concentration" suppress emotions and to prevent that I would keep my "emotional gate" open. That just means I would try to be aware of any emotions I might be feeling at the time - not obsessing over them, not pushing away and not carried away either. The benefit to keeping the emotional gate open is that you learn that vast majority of suffering is not caused by emotions, it is caused by resisting and rejecting emotions.


To cultivate vipassana by meditating on the breath I would notice everything I could about the breath. Sounds, sensations, movements, tensions, relaxations. Noticing these things for the inhalation, inbetween inhalation and exhalation, the exhalation, and between the exhalation and inhalation. And evern the beginning middle and end of those.

You can do samatha and vipassana at the same time, just relax and observe the feelings of relaxation, keeping the emotional gate open, while you also notice all the other aspects of the breath.

Relaxing (stress is a big obstacle to concentration) and refocusing on meditation (samatha or vipassana) after each distraction also causes concentration to develop in a gentle way without having to suppress anything.

To observe the three characteristics you can notice impermanence - how the phenomena are consantly changeing , how things happen automatically without your intentional involvement (anatta), notice that thoughts arise which distract you - you don't control your own mind, your mind is not you. Notice in the distracting thoughts how the ego is involved in unpleasant thoughts and emotions.

As you maintain mindfulness during meditation you don't get carried away by thoughts emotions and impulses and you return to the focus of meditation when you do get distracted, this interrupts the sequence of dependent origination. Self is a concept, when you are in the present moment, for example just noticing the breath not thinking discursively, you are not creating a self, you are not creating suffering. When you are in the present moment you are experiencing anatta. You don't realize it because it seems normal - and it is normal. To see it for what it is it is helpful to develop a sense of when you are thinking through the filter of identity view - to do that you have to watch your thoughts and notice when your ego is causing trouble or when you take on an attitude relating yourself to your current situation etc etc. As you become more sensitive to when you are thinking with identity view, you also become more sensitive to when you are not.



Some links that might be helpful:
​​​​​​​
The Place of Vipassanā in Buddhist Practice
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleStrategy/Section0012.html

In the anapanasati sutra Buddha taught meditation on the breath, it begins with relaxing the breath, body, emotions, and mind, and then moves on to vipassana.
http://dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm
Robert Lydon, modified 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 7:38 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/10/23 7:38 PM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 77 Join Date: 6/19/23 Recent Posts
Hi Michael,

I think that the divide is really your intention. Are you trying to hone concentration or are you pursuing liberation. It is hard to keep the two practices and outcomes separate anyways, so don't worry about it. Just set intention.

Now over preservation on the three characteristics can overfill your mind with action/activity. Apply the frame but don't over analyze and process. You have to give space for no-self to be revealed. Insight is when it is shown to you and moves from knowledge to wisdom. You know the three characteristics, now witness them with a quiet mind.
michael gross, modified 5 Months ago at 11/11/23 7:41 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/11/23 7:38 PM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 5 Join Date: 11/10/23 Recent Posts
Thank you for this excellent and helpful explaination! I've been trying to implement this advice by actively looking for other sensations to note, but with the intention to return to the breath periodically as often and as fast as I can manage. Interestingly, I noticed a very brief but profound experience. The folks outside my window were playing basketball so I was noting the fast and discordant sounds of all the basketballs bouncing. This seemed to allow my perception to speed up in a way I've never experienced before. It became obvious the sound of the basketballs were not originating from "me", but from "over there", the periodic notes from my body and my breath were pulled into the "over there" space, and then for a couple seconds the sensation of "me observing" seemed originate from within the same "over there" space as well. That space collapsed into itself after a couple seconds, but I have a much better understanding of the experiential landscape of this practice now. Thanks for the help!
michael gross, modified 5 Months ago at 11/11/23 7:43 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/11/23 7:43 PM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 5 Join Date: 11/10/23 Recent Posts
Thank you for the response and the reading recommendations! 
thumbnail
Dream Walker, modified 5 Months ago at 11/21/23 2:30 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 11/21/23 2:30 AM

RE: Concentration vs Insight

Posts: 1706 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Search the Dho for lots of great posts
Google this-
Site:www.dharmaoverground.org [words your searching for]
​​​​​​​~D

Breadcrumb